TIME article: Ratzinger's views on women - Mothering Forums

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Old 04-30-2005, 01:49 AM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101...osullivan.html

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A woman has "roles inscribed in her own biology," he says. And what would those be? Motherhood and virginity, "the two loftiest values in which she realizes her profoundest vocation." [...] What if they live in a free-market society that rewards their skills? Then that society undermines the true meaning of being human. What if biology gives us, say, a child with indeterminate gender or a transgendered person or a homosexual? Then nature is somehow awry.
It's not a complimentary article, so if you can't take seeing the Pope criticized, don't bother clicking. OK?
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Old 04-30-2005, 03:45 AM
 
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If the church is so opposed to "Gay's" why are so many priest gay. When i was in HS one of the Nuns gave up her Sister hood to be with her lesiban lover. Hipocrits!!!!!!!!!
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Old 04-30-2005, 09:15 AM
 
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Good article, Girl, thanks.

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The dogmatism is astonishing. If your conscience demands that you dissent from some teachings, then it is not really your conscience. It is sin. And if all this circular dogmatism forces many to leave the church they once thought of as home? So be it. Benedict once wrote of the 18th century church, roiled by the Enlightenment, that it "was a church reduced in size and diminished in social prestige, yet become fruitful from a new interior power, a power that released new formative forces for the individual and for society." That is his vision. If the church withers to a mere shadow of its former self, then that is not failure. It is success. And even in a short papacy, Benedict might just manage it.
The church's death (or withering or apostasy) is it's victory? Just like Christ's death and other martyr's deaths were their victory? I see.
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Old 04-30-2005, 12:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DaryLLL
The church's death (or withering or apostasy) is it's victory? Just like Christ's death and other martyr's deaths were their victory? I see.
Yeah, maybe he's weeding out the culls? You know, those pesky people who ask too many questions.

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Alas, the Gospels do not tell us everything. Jesus never mentions, say, abortion, homosexuality, reproductive technologies or a celibate priesthood, to name just a few of the issues confronting the Roman Catholic Church. How do we know what is "revealed" about them? According to Benedict XVI, only the church hierarchy decides that, with the Pope as the ultimate authority. Because these truths are simply received from God and are therefore nonnegotiable, don't bother asking any questions.
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Old 05-01-2005, 02:16 AM
 
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Perhaps it would be prudent to actually read something written by Benedict XVI instead of relying on Andrew Sullivan to distill the meaning for you. Sullivan himself would not claim to be an unbiased source, I believe. I am surprised that intelligent people such as the posters on this thread are so quick to make pithy, superficial comments about Benedict XVI based on this article.
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Old 05-01-2005, 02:19 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I don't think there's much Benedict could say that would, um, negate the impact of some of those statements.

Unless maybe it was "... Not!"
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Old 05-01-2005, 02:24 AM
 
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I disagree, and I suggest again that you read what he's actually written rather than a smattering of quotations. You will find that even Catholics who like his writings are having extended discussions over the implications over his statements to the effect of "mustard seed faith" - and most of us agree that it does not mean "kicking out the dissenters." You are cavalierly dismissing issues of tremendous theological complexity that cannot be summed up in a one-page opinion piece such as Sullivan's.
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Old 05-01-2005, 02:25 AM
 
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Asking the Pope to have views other than Catholic views is like asking a democrat to go against liberal viewpoints. THE POPE IS CATHOLIC....therefore, what he preaches is CATHOLICISM... If you don't believe in Catholicism, that's great...but don't ask the pope to be anything but Catholic...not only is it a losing battle, but it makes absolutely no sense. No matter how hard you wish, hope, or dream, the leader of the *Catholic Church* will NEVER be anything but Catholic and support *Catholic* doctrine. So, why the continued rash of "oh, the Pope agrees with traditional Catholic doctrine...he should be liberal and go against everything the Catholic church has believed for 2000 years" threads... Honestly...it's getting a bit ridiculous. Excuse my vent, but if you aren't Catholic, noone's expecting you to suddenly believe this stuff and join the church. But know that just because you read a Time article, you don't really know the ins and outs of Catholic doctrine. Unless you've studied it, you really don't know what it's all about...you only know what you've read and been told. If you're looking for liberal based arguements against the Catholic church, that is what you're going to find... If you're looking for reasons to hate the church or the Pope, you're going to find them. However, on the flip side, if you *honestly* wanted to know more about the Catholic church and not just liberal-biased media junk about it, you could just as easily find that by reading the Catechism, papal enclyclicals, or heck...even asking a Catholic knowledgable on the subject at hand...

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Old 05-01-2005, 02:29 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I think the point is how some of us feel about Catholic doctrine.

I did warn you about the link.
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Old 05-01-2005, 02:32 AM - Thread Starter
 
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These are words Benedict has said on the subject of gays:

"intrinsic moral evil"

Intrinsic. Moral. Evil. Wow. Just wow.

I would love to see any context in which those words could be redeemed

I have zero intention of subjecting myself to anything Ratzinger has written. I owe my self-respect and my blood pressure more than that.
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Old 05-01-2005, 02:33 AM
 
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So, what else is new?

The Pope is Catholic, and so he has Catholic views. That is why he was elected Pope.

After growing up and being educated as a Roman Catholic, I knew at an early age there was nothing for me as a woman in the Church, investigated other religions, and moved on, converting to another religion when I was sure this was the path that I wanted.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
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Old 05-01-2005, 02:34 AM
 
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Furthermore, what do you expect from a man who was part of the Nazi Youth and in the German Army during WWII as a young man?

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
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Old 05-01-2005, 02:34 AM
 
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Originally Posted by girlndocs
I think the point is how some of us feel about Catholic doctrine.
So, is it ok for Catholics to start threads on why they feel other religions are awful? No, that would be disrespectful and it's never really ok to sit there and bash another's belief system. I can assure you that I probably disagree with many parts of your spiritual/religion, but I don't start thread after thread bashing it... I have more respect for people whose beliefs I don't share...because I know that spirituality/religion can be an important part of someone's life. You don't have to agree with something to be respectful enough to not bash it.

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Old 05-01-2005, 02:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by applejuice
Furthermore, what do you expect from a man who was part of the Nazi Youth and in the German Army during WWII as a young man?
I think this is pretty much beating a dead horse... This was exhaustively discussed... Most people who researched beyond the liberal media found out that almost everyone in Germany was forced into it (even some grandparents of members here). At 14, he didn't have a choice...join something you didn't really understand (because there wasn't really media circus coverage back then) or have your family killed... Yeah, he *chose* it...he probably didn't even know what he was getting into...

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Old 05-01-2005, 02:41 AM
 
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Originally Posted by applejuice
So, what else is new?

The Pope is Catholic, and so he has Catholic views. That is why he was elected Pope.

After growing up and being educated as a Roman Catholic, I knew at an early age there was nothing for me as a woman in the Church, investigated other religions, and moved on, converting to another religion when I was sure this was the path that I wanted.
And that's fine... Not agreeing and moving on and finding something you do agree with is fine... It's the constant bashing and disrespecting that's not acceptable. I never once bashed another spirituality or religion of another member here, even if it's something I disagree with completely with my whole being... I just don't join that religion/sect/whatever.

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Old 05-01-2005, 02:42 AM
 
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ITA and I will leave the "horse" alone.

So sorry. I did not mean disrespect.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
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Old 05-01-2005, 02:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by applejuice
ITA and I will leave the "horse" alone.

So sorry. I did not mean disrespect.
I'm sorry...I didn't mean to sound snarky... I just get so frustrated seeing a anti-Catholic thread every other day on here... All it does is hurt more people... It just makes me so sad...I don't post hateful things about another's belief system...all I ask is for the same respect...

That, and it's 1:00 AM and I have a baby punching my bladder right now... :LOL

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Old 05-01-2005, 02:46 AM - Thread Starter
 
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It's not "bashing" to point out that someone is doing or endorsing toxic, discriminatory things that hurt other people. Like it or not (definitely not, for me, of course) the Catholic Church has a big influence on "morals" the world over and has many people in its thrall, often people in 3rd-world nations or poor people who don't have access to information to be exposed to the other side of a question.

For someone who is lauded as a moral leader to have such shockingly medieval views on gays and women, and to sway followers with threats of damnation if they should step out of line with those views, is just ... horrific.

I agree that the Nazi thing is beating a dead horse. Get over it already. People change a great deal between 14 and late adulthood and the issue for me is not how he thought and what he did as a teen but what he does and what he thinks now.
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Old 05-01-2005, 11:25 AM
 
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Kristin, if you have no intention of reading anything written by Benedict XVI, you cannot hope to be taken seriously in your criticisms of what you perceive to be his beliefs. If you don't agree with Catholicism, that's certainly your prerogative. Catholic moral teaching is complex and coherent; if you're not going to actually read the Catechism, or the Theology of the Body, or anything written by our current pope, then your comments as to how it's all designed to keep people under control or whatever are not to be taken seriously. I also find it condescending to people in developing countries that you would characterize them as somehow unable to question teachings for themselves. People are perfectly capable of rejecting the Church without esoteric theologians leading the charge.

We're probably not going to come to agreement. I'd just suggest that you be better informed to speak on this subject before you speak in such harsh terms. Myself, I don't agree with everything Islam teaches, but before I'd criticize it, I would make darn sure I really understood what I was talking about instead of relying on the American media to properly explain it to me.
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Old 05-01-2005, 01:57 PM
 
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you got links? I'm not afraid to read his actual words. But I doubt I'll change my mind. I'm not bashing your faith. What I disagree with is the notion that people should blindly obey and accept as true something this one particular PERSON says they should. Heaven forbid anyone question any of it or think for themselves.
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Old 05-01-2005, 07:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Skylark
I also find it condescending to people in developing countries that you would characterize them as somehow unable to question teachings for themselves.
Condescencion has squat all to do with it. It's about how the average citizen of a developing country has limited access to facts and viewpoints. It's about how access to facts is about the single most essential requirement for true choice. People and establishments with agendas to press limit free access to facts for this very reason. If your only source on information about condoms, for example, is the local parish church -- no internet, no library, no TV, no radio -- then you are stuck believing whatever dangerous untrue crap the parish church might choose to tell you about condoms.

It appears you cannot, in fact, think of a context that could possibly excuse that description of gays. Ah, well, neither could I
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Old 05-02-2005, 02:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by stafl
you got links?
I'm working on it. What I meant wasn't that, hey, if you just read this article written by Ratzinger, you'll totally agree with him. (which is probably unlikely ) My point was - Catholic moral theology is complex, and understanding Catholic teaching on the immorality of sexual acts between two persons of the same sex requires understanding all of the theology of the body, the nature of Church authority, and some other stuff, too. LOL I'm working on finding things that will concisely give context to the quotes selected by Andrew Sullivan without providing too superficial an overview. I also don't have a copy of any of Ratzinger's books on hand, although I read them a few years ago...darned libraries! They convince you you don't need to pay for the books! I'm waiting to get the ones I ordered.

Kristin, you're clearly really angry at the Catholic Church. Are you interested in dialogue with Catholics, or did you just post the article in the first place to vent? If you're interested in dialogue, perhaps you could tone down the rhetoric.
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Old 05-02-2005, 02:36 PM
 
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The Catholic church is a large, wealthy and politically powerful organization that attempts to influence public policy in many, many areas of the world. The Pope is as much political figure as he is a spiritual leader. As such, his attempts to influence public policy on a host of issues makes his actions of great interest to many who are not of his faith, but who also have to live with the consequences of his actions.

As for the ever ready cry of "Catholic bashing..." I am not Catholic, but was raised Catholic and most of my extended family is Catholic. I will occasionally provide transportation for an elderly relative to get to Mass if she needs it. I have on more than one occasions heard priests exhorting the congregation to scream "Catholic bashing" every time any criticism of the organization is raised. So honestly, I chuckle every time I hear the phrase.
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Old 05-02-2005, 03:08 PM
 
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"motherhood and virginity"

'Cause those go hand in hand.

:LOL

But really, his views as presented in that article (and some of it is quoting the pope's writings):

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Old 05-02-2005, 04:03 PM
 
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A woman has "roles inscribed in her own biology," he says. And what would those be? Motherhood and virginity, "the two loftiest values in which she realizes her profoundest vocation."
Once again defining women by their sexuality. It really gets old.
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Old 05-02-2005, 05:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I am angry at all those who would use ancient mythology to oppress and limit other human beings. I am angry at any organization which keeps its power by way of "morals" that have essentially not evolved since the Middle Ages. I am absolutely furious that there could be any excuse for the demonization of homosexuals or the continued minimization of women in this day and age.

I am no longer interested in "dialogue" with supporters of the Catholic church, because I have no interest in "dialoguing" about the reasons why it is supposedly OK to oppress women, vilify homosexuals, and embrace policies set by wealthy white men which amount to genocide of brown women, children and gays.

EFmom,
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Old 05-02-2005, 10:35 PM
 
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Quote:
and I suggest again that you read what he's actually written rather than a smattering of quotations.
If it's a quotation, then it is his own words.
Disagreeing with Ratzinger is not Catholic bashing. Or are you all suggesting that the Pope Is the Church?

I think it is sad that a religious organization that can be so rational (especially when compared to other Christian denominations) when it comes to science, that can help so many with its charitable branches and teachings, can be so medieval and hateful when it comes to women and/or homosexuals.

Why aren't men being defined and limited by their sexual characteristics?

As we are teaching our children: if it cannot be questioned, then there is something seriously wrong with it.

"What will you do once you know?"
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Old 05-03-2005, 04:14 PM
 
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The author of the article didn’t tell us what he would say in his desired dialogue with the Catholic Church. Does he want the Church to recognize his right to have sexual relations with another man? Would he have to be married to this man? Would he have to be monogamous? Can he be promiscuous? Would he want to Church to tolerate with him things that it doesn’t tolerate on a moral level with heterosexuals?

Regarding Ratzinger’s remarks on women, of course this would look to Americans like he was harking back to barefoot and pregnant days. But in America, individuality is primary, probably more than in any other society. Progressives don’t want to make any distinctions between men and women, or, in general, between individuals as such. But what about societies where the family if primary? This would include most of the people living on earth today. People for whom the family is primary look primitive to us and the individuals of these families strike us as oppressed. But we strike them as selfish, classist and ethnocentric. Further, since our individualist capitalism is busily destroying the bases of their communal lives, we look like greedy arrogant predators.

In the current context of societies oriented around the family as primary (and as the primary thing that “identifies” individuals) Ratzinger’s remarks take on a different meaning. I am not defending what he says, but I am saying that there is a context to what he says and one needs to be aware of the context to understand what this is. In societies where the family is the primary production and the primary social unit and where it provides the only real defense against the state, women are the cornerstone of the family and men are expendable in a way that even we can recognize. Ratzinger’s statements on homosexuals should be looked at in this context as well.

So it could be that Ratzinger is talking about something that he is opposing to individualist capitalism. We who are products of individualist capitalism value our individuality as primary and want as much liberty as possible, which means that we want to be entirely free to establish our “identity”. But we still see some problems with individualist capitalism. If we are on the current left, we like our individualism, but we don’t see why we should have so much capitalism with its tendency to favor hierarchies based on wealth. If we are on the current right, we like our capitalism, but we don’t see why we should have so much individualism, with everyone doing whatever they want and “moral values” being pretty much whatever anyone wants them to be.

The Church sees both of these as two sides of the same rotten coin. It sees modern (radical) individualism and modern capitalism as interlinked. What their argument is is hard for Americans to understand, but most Americans with and without the Church don’t bother to try. It’s much easier to believe that one has, from one’s privileged place as an American, come upon a world view that is simply natural, logical, and self evident and complete and that people holding an opposite view are either cynical power vultures or stupid and deluded and blindly following medieval dogma. And of course, there can be no dialogue.
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Old 05-03-2005, 05:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AllyRae
So, is it ok for Catholics to start threads on why they feel other religions are awful? No, that would be disrespectful and it's never really ok to sit there and bash another's belief system. I can assure you that I probably disagree with many parts of your spiritual/religion, but I don't start thread after thread bashing it... I have more respect for people whose beliefs I don't share...because I know that spirituality/religion can be an important part of someone's life. You don't have to agree with something to be respectful enough to not bash it.
I think it is perfectly appropriate for us to discuss the moral and political climate that we live and are raising our kids in. I don't think discussing is "bashing" at all. I was raised Catholic and have lots of Catholic family and it it is important to me to understand what their leaders are teaching. I don't think any of us expect the Pope not to be Catholic, but within Catholicism, as I'm sure you know, there is quite a spectrum of beliefs.

I, for one, was hoping that the new Pope, within the framework of Catholicism, would be a more liberal, open-minded person, capable of leading the church down a more progressive, less discriminating path.
It is deeply saddening and disheartening to hear some of the new pope's view are seemingly so archaic and oppressive.

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Old 05-03-2005, 06:52 PM
 
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I just wrote out a long reply but chickened out--I don't feel like dealing with any negative energy today. But I really agree with what Ally has said. I am a liberal but also a Catholic--and know that the Pope is going to stick with the original Catholic doctrine, and I have respect for him.

I find it interesting that there are a few posters here that are admittedly not Catholic, yet I often see posts from them that are very anti-Catholic. Anytime there is a person posting negative views on the church or the Pope they are next in line to agree with that person and express their negative views of the church. It is very perplexing to me, because there are many religions (or religious leaders, for that matter) that I don't agree with, but that is fine because I am not that religion. I don't spend a great deal of time online posting about those other religions--trying to back up my negative views on them. It would be insulting to people who devote their lives to that religion, and be a useless waste of energy I would think. Maybe there is something I am missing here.

Thanks for listening,
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