Christian "Pro Life" "Pro Death Penalty" Link - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 61 Old 09-08-2005, 01:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I've been thinking about what seems like a paradox to me. Pro-life, pro-death penalty. I know people who are against abortion, insisting that the unborn child has a right to be born even if the mother does not want it - out of respect for all life; and also believe that killing someone as punishment is morally correct.

One thread popped out as common: punishment. Having an unwanted baby can be a punishment to the woman who is seen as irresponsible, having sex and lusty fun for any reason other than making a baby. Or, irresponsible for doing so without a condom (depending on one's religion). And the punishing apsect of the death penalty is obvious.

If anyone holds these two beliefs, can you comment on whether you find "punishment" to be the common thread? Or is there some other reason this seeming paradox makes sense?

Curiously,
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#2 of 61 Old 09-08-2005, 03:11 PM
 
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I don't think for most being pro-life has anything to do with punishment of pregnant woman. If anything, most would say they're pro-life because babies don't deserve to be 'punished' for the choices of adults that resulted in thier conception.

I have a feeling that most would also differentiate between an innocent who's not even had the chance to be born let alone intentionally harm someone else, and say, an axe-murderer who's been given the death penalty.
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#3 of 61 Old 09-08-2005, 10:28 PM
 
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IMO the common thread is those certain people who want to take away the rights of others, who want control over someone else's life (and death). You could throw into the mix the idea they hold that gay people shouldn't get married. The common factor is the conviction that their personal beliefs are more important than what other people believe to be true, and the wish to impose those beliefs on others.
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#4 of 61 Old 09-10-2005, 10:34 PM
 
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The two ideas are unified by a strong respect for life. A society that holds life in high regard will react swiftly and strongly when someone violates such regard via murder. To punish with less is to say the loss wasn't that big of a deal.

But isn't capital punishment murder? No. Ending a human life means different things at different times whether it be self-defense, mercy-killing, or executing, etc.
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#5 of 61 Old 09-11-2005, 02:19 PM
 
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IMO--The two beliefs are contradictory. No human has the right to judge the value of another human. Apparently, though, it seems that we feel we have the power to do so. And so we do.

Being "pro-life and pro-death penalty" gives the bearer of this belief a certain assumed power. Power to hold certain opinions of others and the assumed justification to act on those opinions.

Personally, I believe all life is sacred. That includes the unborn and the women who choose to abort their unborn as well as women who choose to give birth to their unborn. It also includes prisoners and those on death row. (It also includes gays who want to get married and heterosexuals who just want to live together without marriage, but that's OT)

Whatever opinions I have about all these people and their aforementioned choices matters not a whit. We're all still sacred beings.

ETA...I am a Catholic Christian, by the way.
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#6 of 61 Old 09-12-2005, 01:58 AM
 
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I agree with Katrina that the two views are inconsistant. Google "consistant life" for more info. on this.
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#7 of 61 Old 09-13-2005, 04:40 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I want to thank those who replied so far. I am very interested in your thoughts, Red Sock, since you have been willing to state your strong opinions.

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The two ideas are unified by a strong respect for life. A society that holds life in high regard will react swiftly and strongly when someone violates such regard via murder. To punish with less is to say the loss wasn't that big of a deal.
Did you mean to say that abortion is murder? If not, are you referring to using capital punishment in the case of someone who has been found guilty by law of murder (of a person who has been born)? Why do you think a lesser punishment would convey the message that it wasn't a big deal?

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But isn't capital punishment murder? No. Ending a human life means different things at different times whether it be self-defense, mercy-killing, or executing, etc.
How do you decide what ending a human life means? If it is different for self-defense, mercy-killing, and executing, isn't it also different for abortion? What guides you to determine which is right and which is wrong?

Lastly, if you are still willing to share, what is your opinion of and personal style of punishment in child-rearing?

Thanks,
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#8 of 61 Old 09-13-2005, 04:43 PM
 
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I do think punishment or judgment and control is the common thread in these two aspects.

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#9 of 61 Old 09-15-2005, 03:35 PM
 
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This is JMO, i think that pro-life is the innocent babe, who does nothing wronga nd knows no evil

Capital punishment is for those who have done something ao severe that is calls of death. They know what they were doing and they chose to do it. They made the choice. A babe thriving inside a mothers womb, never made a chioce to hurt another person. This is JMO

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#10 of 61 Old 09-19-2005, 12:09 AM
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I don't get it. I'm Pro-life but against capitol punishment. I know a lot of pro life people who are for executions. It seems extremely inconsistant to me.

Here is their arguement, just in case you're interested.....the unborn baby is innocent. He or she has never committed a crime. A criminal convicted of a capitol offense is *not* innocent and, therefore, deserves to be executed.

Again, not my position but if you were truely interested in someone's rationale there it is for your consumption.

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#11 of 61 Old 10-26-2005, 07:20 AM
 
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I am pro life and Christian but have never felt that there was any element of punishment in pro life. Pro life is about the child having a right to live.

I am against the death penalty but know many Christians who are for it. The common thread is not punishment but not wanting to take an innocent life and believing that it is ok to take a "guilty" person. I don't even believe in taking a guilty person's life let alone that of an innocent child.
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#12 of 61 Old 10-26-2005, 08:16 AM
 
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I don't think for most being pro-life has anything to do with punishment of pregnant woman. If anything, most would say they're pro-life because babies don't deserve to be 'punished' for the choices of adults that resulted in thier conception.
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I have a feeling that most would also differentiate between an innocent who's not even had the chance to be born let alone intentionally harm someone else, and say, an axe-murderer who's been given the death penalty.
Very well said.

Pro-lifers are very consistent. They always want to protect the lives of innocent people, be it an unborn child, the disabled, the elderly, the terminally ill.
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#13 of 61 Old 10-26-2005, 09:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by beccaboomom
Very well said.

Pro-lifers are very consistent. They always want to protect the lives of innocent people, be it an unborn child, the disabled, the elderly, the terminally ill.
to protect the potential life of an unborn child (pregnancy is no guarantee of a living breathing baby, as i know all too well)...
at the expense of the rights of the living to decide for herself what she can and cannot do to her own body. And then to say it's okay to end someone else's life for whatever reason or perceived reason irregardless, a living, breathing human person. This is what many find inconsistent and impossible to understand.
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#14 of 61 Old 10-26-2005, 09:56 AM
 
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to protect the potential life of an unborn child (pregnancy is no guarantee of a living breathing baby, as i know all too well)...
Quote:
at the expense of the rights of the living to decide for herself what she can and cannot do to her own body. And then to say it's okay to end someone else's life for whatever reason or perceived reason irregardless, a living, breathing human person. This is what many find inconsistent and impossible to understand.
It is not the womans body she is harming, it is that of an unborn child. She is ending someone else's life. The death penalty isn't for a perceived reason, I think mutilating, or murdering another is a reality.
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#15 of 61 Old 10-27-2005, 08:11 AM
 
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Originally Posted by beccaboomom
It is not the womans body she is harming, it is that of an unborn child. She is ending someone else's life. The death penalty isn't for a perceived reason, I think mutilating, or murdering another is a reality.
Do you really believe that everyone who has received a guilty verdict is unquestionably guilty and deserving of death? What of the tales of people sitting on death row when new evidence surfaces proving them innocent? Is it okay to sentence just one innocent person to death, ever? If it isn't, it shouldn't be okay to sentence anyone to death, because the chance is always there that perhaps they didn't do it.
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#16 of 61 Old 10-27-2005, 09:22 AM
 
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Do you really believe that everyone who has received a guilty verdict is unquestionably guilty and deserving of death?
Let's keep the discussion on track. We'll assume the person is guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt for the sake of discussion. Do I personally think people like John Wayne Gacy and Charles Manson deserve the death penalty? Yep. The death penalty should only be used with the strictest of guidelines and physical evidence.

Quote:
one innocent person to death
Doesn't it bother you to see an innocent person put to death is a better question?
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#17 of 61 Old 10-27-2005, 09:43 AM
 
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Originally Posted by beccaboomom
Doesn't it bother you to see an innocent person put to death is a better question?
okay then, doesn't it?
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#18 of 61 Old 10-27-2005, 09:57 AM
 
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I am consistently pro-life, meaning I do not support the death penalty, war or ending life support for terminally ill people. I am not Catholic, Christian or Other. I just think life, and the potential for life is sacred.
I do not agree with those who would condemn a human to death after they are born but in the same breath rabidly oppose abortion. It doesn't make sense at all, IMO.
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#19 of 61 Old 10-27-2005, 10:18 AM
 
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Like the PP I am also consistently pro-life.

I am against taking life, full stop. I also do not see it as morally and logically reconcilable to be pro-life yet support the death penalty. The fact that the person has done a morally reproachable act (like killing) does not mean that we as a society should engage in that same act, and, furthermore, legalize it. It is paradoxical to say, you killed someone which is illegal, therefore we shall kill you, which is legal.

Killing, condemning someone else to death, is always wrong whether it happens on the street or in the courtroom. No matter what someone else has done, their life is not in our hands and we do not have the right to decide that they should die.

The emotions that support the death penalty are wholly negative ... revenge, fear, contempt, hatred. These are not the sort of emotions that a responsible legal and moral system should be built on. I am in favour of a legal system that promotes forgiveness and rehabilitation, above revenge and hatred. The latter emotions can never lead to true happiness.

Fortunately the death penalty is banned EU-wide as a human rights violation.
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#20 of 61 Old 10-27-2005, 10:55 AM
 
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Here is a link to our Church's stance on the death penalty.
http://www.deathpenaltyreligious.org.../orthodox.html

We are staunchly pro life, anti death sentence. I used to think the death sentence was a "reasonable" thing....but not any more. I cant say that any life has more or less value. We are also open to adoption and have offered to adopt a pregnant teens baby.
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#21 of 61 Old 10-27-2005, 11:22 AM
 
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Just a reminder that if this thread turns into an abortion debate it will be shut down.
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#22 of 61 Old 10-27-2005, 01:54 PM
 
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okay then, doesn't it?
Sorry, I don't understand your answer to the question
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#23 of 61 Old 10-27-2005, 02:04 PM
 
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If the difference is in the question of 'innocence', then I think you have to consider the possibility that innocent people have, and may well continue to be executed if the death penalty continues. I believe that supporting the death penalty as it exists today means accepting that there is a possibility of a person who is innocent( or a person with diminished guilt) being executed, and believing that the good of the death penatly outweighs the loss of innocent life. That's one reason why I can't support the death penalty.

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#24 of 61 Old 10-27-2005, 02:41 PM
 
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I think the common link is that the pro-life/pro-death penalty person believes s/he has the right to judge some life as more valuable than other life. Innocent baby = worthy of life, violent criminal too poor to afford competent legal counsel = unworthy of life. Never mind that the violent criminal may be mentally disabled or mentally ill, or has lived a life subjected to unthinkable horrors. It's similar to the attitude that some have that some poor people are more deserving of aid than others and they're the ones qualified to make such moral judgments. It's a very arrogant, self-righteous attitude, IMHO.
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#25 of 61 Old 10-27-2005, 02:58 PM
 
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I am an opponent of both abortion and the death penalty.

of course, my spiritual beliefs, my moral beliefs, and my own worldview play into this on many levels but in addition to these, I would assert that human fallibility is a big factor.

we don't see the entire picture, have all of the information, understand all the mysteries of life....our justice system is faulty and I believe people have selective vision..... we are influenced, too, by other faulty people

i can't answer why the pro-life and pro-death-penalty thinking works, but i think your "punishment" theory is a plausible one
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#26 of 61 Old 10-27-2005, 03:08 PM
 
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I agree with the "punishment" theory. My experience of this train of thought (anti-birth control, anti-abortion, and pro-judicial murder) has been that the proponents of it are on a massive power trip, too.

In addition to the reasons mentioned above for why someone can be against the death penalty, I abhor what killing someone in the name of "justice" does to the society that does it.

For those who are in favor of the death penalty, would you be willing to be the executioner? And I don't mean the executioner only for the person convicted of a crime against you or yours, but to do it as a duty for crimes committed against strangers.

Think about that. It isn't like in the movies. Nothing heroic. Nothing noble. You are a factory.
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#27 of 61 Old 10-27-2005, 03:12 PM
 
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I am opposed to the death penalty. I can understand the feeling some pro-dp people have that a person can do something so heinous that he "deserves to die." If someone murdered someone I know, I'm sure I would feel exactly the same way.

But to me, it's a big step from feeling that a person deserves to die to actually killing the person. That's where the inconsistency comes in, for me. I don't think human beings should have that kind of power over each other. That is up to God. Like Eternal_Grace said, deciding to kill another puts us on the same plane as the murderer. I don't care if you call it legalized execution or cold-blooded murder. To me it's all the same. It destroys the soul of whoever does it, whether it's the person doing the lethal injection or the person who killed someone with an ax.
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#28 of 61 Old 10-31-2005, 10:33 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by athansor
If the difference is in the question of 'innocence', then I think you have to consider the possibility that innocent people have, and may well continue to be executed if the death penalty continues. I believe that supporting the death penalty as it exists today means accepting that there is a possibility of a person who is innocent( or a person with diminished guilt) being executed, and believing that the good of the death penatly outweighs the loss of innocent life. That's one reason why I can't support the death penalty.
thank you. That's exactly what I was trying to say.
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#29 of 61 Old 11-01-2005, 09:15 AM
 
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stafl, you don't support the death penalty because someone innocent may wrongly be put to death, yet you have no problem with abortion? How is that any different than the person who is pro-life ,yet supports the death penalty?
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#30 of 61 Old 11-01-2005, 09:30 AM
 
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Because people who are pro choice don't think a fetus is an innocent baby and also take into account a pregnant woman's life.

(This is not to start a debate because I am sure you disagree and abortion debate is not allowed. Just n explanation.)

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