Biblical Marriage Study--Debate Requested! - Page 3 - Mothering Forums
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#61 of 342 Old 10-10-2005, 07:05 PM
 
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personally pointed comments bordering on attacking individuals, and replies to those posts have been removed, as requested by certain participants in this thread. let's keep this thread on topic, please.
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#62 of 342 Old 10-10-2005, 07:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by fullofgrace
Ahh, that sounds GREAT and is a lot of what I'm looking for. I'm a bookworm, so all good reads are welcome suggestions.
I bet you'll enjoy it, and if you have access to Parenting with Grace, it's a really good read as well!

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#63 of 342 Old 10-10-2005, 09:45 PM
 
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Okie, dokie, here are my old posts, for what they are worth!

First of all, an encyclical from Pope John Paul II:
Surely no one can accuse him of trying to be "politically correct".
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7273/submissn.html
Quote:
The apostolic letters are addressed to people living in an environment marked by the same traditional way of thinking and acting. The "innovation" of Christ is a fact: It constitutes the unambiguous intent of the evangelical message and is the result of the redemption. However, the awareness that in marriage there is mutual "subjection of the spouses out of reverence for Christ" and not just that of the wife to the husband must gradually establish itself in hearts, consciences, behaviors and customs. This is a call which from that time onward does not cease to challenge succeeding generations; it is a call which people have to accept ever anew. St. Paul not only wrote, "In Christ Jesus ... there is no more man or woman," but also wrote, "there is no more slave or freeman." Yet how many generations were needed for such a principle to be realized in the history of humanity through the abolition of slavery! And what is one to say of the many forms of slavery to which individuals and peoples are subjected, which have not yet disappeared from history?

As Catholics we are called to submit to the authority of the Roman Catholic church.

According to Vatican II’s Constitution on the Church in the Modern World, Gaudium et Spes: "Authentic married love is caught up into divine love" (GS 48). The Church does call for mutual submission. I believe this calling to be Biblically based, and honoring of both men and women as being created in the image of God.

Archbishop Charles Chaput of Archdiocese of Denver wrote,in answer to the Southern Baptist Convention's teachings on women submitting "Ironically, this Scripture is sometimes misrepresented as encouraging a type of 'serfdom,' particularly for the wife. But this is clearly not Paul's message. He is calling husbands and wives to the true freedom of serving one another in imitation of Christ."

Moving on away from strictly Catholic teachings and into the general realm of Christianity...

Christ, when speaking of marriage, spoke of ONE-ness:
"Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder" (Matthew 19:6).
He does not set up a system where one member of the marriage has power over the other.

In Genesis 2:20 the Hebrew word for "help meet" is ezer. This is translated as "surround, to protect or aid, help, helper succor"- these are powerful, strong words. Frankly, I do not see them as submissive words. God has given us an incredibly powerful and strong role to play as wives.

I am not saying do not submit. But to submit without the solid foundation of love and mutuality? It's manipulative. It's not honoring yourself, your husband, or your Lord. My husband and I submit to one another, in love, and gladly. We honor each other, and listen to each other, and respect each other. We base our roles not on our gentalia, but on our status as children of God.

How is what has been proposed on this thread any different from the golden rule? Are not all Christians called to love one another selflessly, to not put themselves first, to self-sacrifice and to put others ahead of their own wants?
=========
I don't understand why anyone would be unwilling to discuss this. After all, Scripture does say
Quote:
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: (KJV)
1 Peter 3:15

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#64 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 12:45 AM
 
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Originally Posted by fullofgrace
Do you mind sharing that popcorn with someone also standing at a crossroads with many paths at her feet??

Not at all! :
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#65 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 12:47 AM
 
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But to submit without the solid foundation of love and mutuality? It's manipulative. It's not honoring yourself, your husband, or your Lord. My husband and I submit to one another, in love, and gladly. We honor each other, and listen to each other, and respect each other. We base our roles not on our gentalia, but on our status as children of God.
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#66 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 02:17 AM
 
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DaryLLL, did I skim your verses from Shir HaShirim (Song of Songs) too quickly, or did I miss something? Did not see anything about marriage at all. Nothing. Zip.
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#67 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 02:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by CherryBomb

I second that clap.


Well said, annettemarie.
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#68 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 04:23 AM
 
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What exactly are we debating here???

& Why Are threads permitted that actively seek to degrade Christianity??
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#69 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 05:10 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Ms.Doula
What exactly are we debating here???

& Why Are threads permitted that actively seek to degrade Christianity??
The discussion has been about what the Biblical view of marriage is. How is such a discussion degrading to Christianity if the Bible's view is a valuable one?
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#70 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 09:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Ms.Doula
What exactly are we debating here???

& Why Are threads permitted that actively seek to degrade Christianity??
Do you know the background on this, or are you just ASSuming thta this thread degrades Christianity? I take great offense that you presume I doing that.

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#71 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
 
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No sweat, chickies, I think Ms Doula just needs to recheck the stickie at the top of the forum.

Quote:
The Religious Studies forum is for the academic discussion of religious and spiritual matters. This is where the tough questions may be asked. Please do not take it personally when someone questions your own particular faith or belief system or posts an interpretation or opinion that does not support your belief. Questions and their discussion are not to be construed as being judgemental, but should rather be seen as an honest plea for a deeper understanding...etc.
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#72 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by merpk
DaryLLL, did I skim your verses from Shir HaShirim (Song of Songs) too quickly, or did I miss something? Did not see anything about marriage at all. Nothing. Zip.
You left out "nada."
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#73 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 10:41 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Ms.Doula
What exactly are we debating here???

& Why Are threads permitted that actively seek to degrade Christianity??
asking questions is not the same as degrading. Unquestioned faith is... uh... looking for the right words here... worthless. It is when we are asked the tough questions, and find the answers, that our faith is made that much stronger.
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#74 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 10:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by stafl
asking questions is not the same as degrading. Unquestioned faith is... uh... looking for the right words here... worthless. It is when we are asked the tough questions, and find the answers, that our faith is made that much stronger.
Now it's my turn for

Although I personally think there is a place for asking tough questions and NOT finding the answers, and taking a leap of faith, as well.

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#75 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 10:57 AM
 
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
Now it's my turn for

Although I personally think there is a place for asking tough questions and NOT finding the answers, and taking a leap of faith, as well.

VERY good point!
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#76 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 12:31 PM
 
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Slighlty OT, but (I am going to have to look for the *blushing* smilie now, ) Does Song of Solomon get anyone elso quite in the MOOD!??!?!

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#77 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 12:33 PM
 
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And I have been lurking on this thread a bit but enjoying myself immensly. The "Biblical Marriage" threads always bothered me a bit. Not the concept of honoring and loving your dh, but the stories about women basically becoming doormats. I totally agree with DarylL's take on the verses about mutual submission.

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#78 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 12:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Bella Babe
Slighlty OT, but (I am going to have to look for the *blushing* smilie now, ) Does Song of Solomon get anyone elso quite in the MOOD!??!?!
I was reading it to DH last night after dinner. He's a pastor and was . I don't know if he'll ever be able to sit without squirming during a wedding reading again.

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#79 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 12:51 PM
 
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Here's a question I have- wouldn't taking it upon yourself, as a wife, to start submitting to your husband, without discussing it with him first and being sure it was something you both wanted, be an extremely UNsubmissive act?

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#80 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 12:59 PM
 
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I think the main thing is that people misunderstand what submission is.

I submit to the Lord. That does not make me a doormat.

When I submit to my husband, likewise I am not doormat. Just ask him. :

I am a strong, caring, kindered spirit.

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#81 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 01:11 PM
 
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I think being on the same page is important.

In my own personal marriage, and I cannot speak for anyone else, It has to be a two way street for it to work.

I have my stuff, and hubby has his stuff. In our home, to us, no one gets off easy, kwim?

We have had many many discussions about this subject since I found AB's thread. I have lurked and learned alot.

And while I respect those that tow Gods word without a supportive, loving and obeying husband, I am not sure it would work well in our house unless it was mutual.

I hope that makes sense.
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#82 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 01:17 PM
 
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May I add another tidbit?

Since I have discovered this whole concept, since I have been reading, my husband has had to step up to the plate, so to speak. I think my husband has wanted this sort of thing for along time, but I have greatly resisted it, because like his two other brothers, has used Gods word to attempt control over me. I do not mean to bash my husband, so bear with me. He was wrongly influenced by his brothers. It was awful, and our marriage suffered terribly.

But I have prayed (and always did), that things would change. Now, we have been reading the bible together, learning Gods word. And Daryllls thread(s) have helped as well. Now my husband knows, and maybe he always did, what the bible says about what a husband has to do, not just the wife. I think in some ways, he was a bit nervous. But ignorance is not bliss to me, and my eyes being opened, my heart opened has in a way forced him to rise to the ocassion. I know I am rambling.

And yes, those scriptures in Songs make me very moody
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#83 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 01:28 PM
 
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I faught for 3 years to make things "equal" in my marriage. Neither of us were ever happy. We both felt used. We both felt that the other was not doing there part.

We seperated. I was done. He wanted another chance. I couldn't imagine being together anymore. I prayed for God to lead my heart and my thoughts. We started "dating", hanging out. We became intimant again (although he was still staying at his moms ) I became pregnant with Angelo. It had been 5 months after seperating (not legally) I truly believe this was a sign from God. We HAD to fight for our family.

We made charts. We made chore lists. We still always faught because things were not "fair"

That is when I had enough and decided to seek council from women who loved the Lord with all of their hearts. Titus 2 women who believed it was their God givin duty to educate younger women to be good mothers, wives, and keepers of their homes.

My life has forever changed!

Since I decided to accept certain differences in my husband and I, life has been fantastic. I started treating him like a man. I started respecting him always. I started showing him I loved him. I stopped nagging. I started listening.

What I found was a man who was scared that he wasn't good enough for his family. A man who was struggling with demons from his abusive past that made him feel like less of a man.

By me treating him like a King, I have become the Queen I have longed to be. He romances me. We are intimant almost daily. We are both madly in love. Last night he looked me in the eyes and said "I can't wait to have more children with you. You are a great mother." :

Two years ago I almost lost my family. Now I am living what seems like a dream

I realized the reason I didn't want to submit to Rich and trust his decisions is because I really didn't trust God to make it alright. It had nothing to do with Rich. Just my lack of trust in God.

I do trust God with all of my heart now......and I have been truly blessed!!!

Submission may not be for everyone, but for some, it has been one of the greatest blessings that they have experienced.

It is not an ugly slavery, it is a freedom that comes from total and complete trust in your partner.

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#84 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 01:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sweetbaby3
May I add another tidbit?

Since I have discovered this whole concept, since I have been reading, my husband has had to step up to the plate, so to speak. I think my husband has wanted this sort of thing for along time, but I have greatly resisted it, because like his two other brothers, has used Gods word to attempt control over me. I do not mean to bash my husband, so bear with me. He was wrongly influenced by his brothers. It was awful, and our marriage suffered terribly.

But I have prayed (and always did), that things would change. Now, we have been reading the bible together, learning Gods word. And Daryllls thread(s) have helped as well. Now my husband knows, and maybe he always did, what the bible says about what a husband has to do, not just the wife. I think in some ways, he was a bit nervous. But ignorance is not bliss to me, and my eyes being opened, my heart opened has in a way forced him to rise to the ocassion. I know I am rambling.
That is awesome! :

Rich just agreed last night to do a Bible study, book study, and pray with me everyday. Please pray for us that we will be able to make this a routine.

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#85 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 01:36 PM
 
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I am a strong, caring, kindered spirit.

So am I but I still have veto power if DH is considering something completely awful, like circ. (he knew better though, so it was moot anyway.)

This is a tree on fire with love, but it's still scary since most people think love only looks like one thing instead of the whole world. *
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Originally Posted by Mackenzie
So am I but I still have veto power if DH is considering something completely awful, like circ. (he knew better though, so it was moot anyway.)
Me too. I do have a say because he always consults with me.

Also if it is something that I deem HUGE (like circ) I would discuss it with him and let him know how I felt. Because I do not nag at every decision he makes, he knows it is serious if I bring it to his attention and he treats it as such.

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#87 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 02:42 PM
 
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Me too. I do have a say because he always consults with me.

Also if it is something that I deem HUGE (like circ) I would discuss it with him and let him know how I felt. Because I do not nag at every decision he makes, he knows it is serious if I bring it to his attention and he treats it as such.

But what I get from people who believe in "wife submission" is that even though you may "bring it to his attention" he does not have to agree, or follow your wishes and can do what he wants anyway. Maybe that is now what you are saying but that is what was said by a poster (wasn't it you?) whose son would be circumcised if God had not intervened as a male medical prefessional. There lies the difference between you and I. I will fight to the death for my son's health even if it means opposing my husband. Thankfully, my husband trusts that if I say something especially when it comes to the medical issues, that even though he may not agree at first, or it is controversial, he knows that it is something that I have investigated thoroughly, and not something that I am pulling out of my . He trusts ME and does not need the word of a medical professional. I think that is where my biggest issue is, that someone would be trusted over the spouse. I would be horribly insulted to be told "sorry hony but I just do not trust your intelligence. We are going to do this anyone unless someone better than you can convince me otherwise".

I may be over simplifying the matter and I hope that I am cause this sounds oppressing.

This is a tree on fire with love, but it's still scary since most people think love only looks like one thing instead of the whole world. *
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#88 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 02:50 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by AngelBee
Me too. I do have a say because he always consults with me.
I'm sorry, but that sounds just a wee big smug.

It seems some dhs do not consult, yet the wife thinks by being obedient, or doing her hair just so, or keeping the house extra clean, dh will suddenly start to respect her and all will be peachy keen.

I am glad it is somehow working for you AB, but it seems it doesn't always "work." In fact, it often leads to abuse and lonely hurting wives whose dhs have a little tail on the side. And whose kids don't have enough to eat b/c the dh controls the pursestrings and keeps his money for his gf's dates and gifts and his other selfish interests.

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Also if it is something that I deem HUGE (like circ) I would discuss it with him and let him know how I felt. Because I do not nag at every decision he makes, he knows it is serious if I bring it to his attention and he treats it as such.
So, you don't nag and you choose your battles. All well and good. This is common recced mainstream behavior for any human relationship. It is not Biblical. I think it is stretching to say it is.
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#89 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 03:00 PM
 
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While I have enjoyed MOST of todays posts, I want to clarify WHY I stated what I did last night:

Darylll was so kind to point out this quote from the UA that btw. I did not miss

Quote:
Quote:
The Religious Studies forum is for the academic discussion of religious and spiritual matters. This is where the tough questions may be asked. Please do not take it personally when someone questions your own particular faith or belief system or posts an interpretation or opinion that does not support your belief. Questions and their discussion are not to be construed as being judgemental, but should rather be seen as an honest plea for a deeper understanding...etc.
I see no HONST PLEA for a deeper Understanding on your part. Put morover to DISPROVE others faith and understanding.

I guess I am just frusterated with the fact that it seems like a favorite past-time for some, to rip apart & disect someone elses' faith....
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#90 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 03:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelBee
I faught for 3 years to make things "equal" in my marriage. Neither of us were ever happy. We both felt used. We both felt that the other was not doing there part.

We seperated. I was done. He wanted another chance. I couldn't imagine being together anymore. I prayed for God to lead my heart and my thoughts. We started "dating", hanging out. We became intimant again (although he was still staying at his moms ) I became pregnant with Angelo. It had been 5 months after seperating (not legally) I truly believe this was a sign from God. We HAD to fight for our family.

We made charts. We made chore lists. We still always faught because things were not "fair"

That is when I had enough and decided to seek council from women who loved the Lord with all of their hearts. Titus 2 women who believed it was their God givin duty to educate younger women to be good mothers, wives, and keepers of their homes.

My life has forever changed!

Since I decided to accept certain differences in my husband and I, life has been fantastic. I started treating him like a man. I started respecting him always. I started showing him I loved him. I stopped nagging. I started listening.

What I found was a man who was scared that he wasn't good enough for his family. A man who was struggling with demons from his abusive past that made him feel like less of a man.

By me treating him like a King, I have become the Queen I have longed to be. He romances me. We are intimant almost daily. We are both madly in love. Last night he looked me in the eyes and said "I can't wait to have more children with you. You are a great mother." :

Two years ago I almost lost my family. Now I am living what seems like a dream

I realized the reason I didn't want to submit to Rich and trust his decisions is because I really didn't trust God to make it alright. It had nothing to do with Rich. Just my lack of trust in God.

I do trust God with all of my heart now......and I have been truly blessed!!!

Submission may not be for everyone, but for some, it has been one of the greatest blessings that they have experienced.

It is not an ugly slavery, it is a freedom that comes from total and complete trust in your partner.
AB- I think that is the most honest, precious poist you have ever written.

I thank you for sharing that.

And not that my aproval is important, but I think you've 'Got it right'.
Ms.Doula is offline  
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