Biblical Marriage Study--Debate Requested! - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

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#121 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 07:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ms.Doula
80ferettoes please eddit the profanity from your last post
I dont think thats what AB was saying & no i dont think anyone should stay in an abusive marriage



mamajama-The last comment of your post was totally out of line & offensive. per the UA, please be respectfull or don't contribute to the discussion.
Did I miss the part where you became a mod?

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#122 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Mackenzie
What exactly are the Pearls? I have been trying to figure it out but all I can tell is that it is something REALLY bad.


A couple who espouse beating babies with thin plastic tubing as young as 3 mos. And all kinds of other horrific systematic child abuse masquerading as child disipline.
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#123 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 07:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
Did I miss the part where you became a mod?
And you?
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#124 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 07:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms.Doula
80ferettoes please eddit the profanity from your last post
I dont think thats what AB was saying & no i dont think anyone should stay in an abusive marriage
I'll think about the "profanity." We're all grownups here, and I don't think MDC has a policy about occasional "bad words" unless they become a regular habit of a poster.

And AngelBee, whether she knows it or not, is embracing an ideology that most certainly DOES advocate staying in an abusive marriage-- the Pearls notoriously counsel women married to child molesters to take their husbands back if they repent.

Where do they submitters finally draw that line? Because everyone has a line.
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#125 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 07:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sweetbaby3
And you?
I'm not telling anyone they need to edit their posts

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#126 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 07:47 PM
 
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I am not a mod, however I was being curtious in asking nicely for the offensive comments to be eddited so that it is not reported as a 'bad post' Dont we all want to see the UA upheld?
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#127 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 07:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ms.Doula
I am not a mod, however I was being curtious in asking nicely for the offensive comments to be eddited so that it is not reported as a 'bad post' Dont we all want to see the UA upheld?
Yes, but perhaps we should submit ourselves to the authority of the moderators and trust them to do that. :LOL

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#128 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 07:57 PM
 
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I've been trying to work this out in my mind.

Scripture says "You shall have no other gods before me” (Exodus 20:2-3). Broadly interpreted, this means we should be only bowing down to God, and that He should be absolutely first in our lives. . Submitting our entire will to someone self is, in essence, idolizing them, something Christians are explicitly forbidden to do. And yet, we are called to submit to one another in love. So, how do you reconcile that? I think it's sort of the same as the concept of "Nameste"- bowing to the divine within someone. If I submit to my husband, it is because I am honoring the grace of God, the divine spark of God's own life. within him. When he submits to me, it is the same. We are submitting to one another as a way of respecting and worshiping God, NOT as a way to gain power or get what we want. I think all deals are off if your spouse if shagging his secretary, or beating you, or otherwise behaving in a way that does not show he has God's grace within him.

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#129 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 08:04 PM
 
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I found this interesting as well.
The Greek word that is translated as "submit" or "be subject to" is Hupotasso.

Quote:
1. to arrange under, to subordinate
2. to subject, put in subjection
3. to subject one's self, obey
4. to submit to one's control
5. to yield to one's admonition or advice
6. to obey, be subject

A Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in amilitary fashion under the command of a leader". In non-military use,it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assumingresponsibility, and carrying a burden".
It's the exact same word used earlier in Ephesians 5: 21, where St. Paul says
Quote:
be subject to one another in the fear of Christ.
So, while the wife may be "supposed" to submit to the husband, Paul says earlier that everyone is to submit to each other, which, as we stated before, is the Golden Rule. It's a voluntary selflessness, which we are all called to.


Amen.

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#130 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 08:06 PM
 
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Ms Doula, My spiritual path has led me to believe that God is a story. How is my spiritual path any less worthy of being voiced than yours?
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#131 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 08:07 PM
 
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I say God is a story too. :
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#132 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 08:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms.Doula
Dont we all want to see the UA upheld?
Of course! But is not a dissenting, perhaps even disliked, opinion allowed in a forum where debate is permitted, as it is here in Religious Studies? I thought this forum was not an agree and support-only section? --

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthia Mosher
Please do not take it personally when someone questions your own particular faith or belief system or posts an interpretation or opinion that does not support your belief.


The statement that 'God is a story' is a differing belief. What you read as offensive I read as a sharing of opinion.

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#133 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 08:13 PM
 
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your spiritual path is not less worthy of being voiced than mine. BUT I did not jump into the middle of a thread where you were discussing such say... the proof God does not exist- & Say you are wrong. what a myth.

Thats like me jumping into the middle of a thread I have no buisness being in Say the dads forum or the gay parenting forum) and saying Nope. You are full of crap.
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#134 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 08:16 PM
 
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I don't remember ever saying anyone was "full of crap". Ever. In my life. Oh, one time I told someone they "suck" but that was just once.
I've actually been reading this thread from it's beginning. If I could have used my super-powers I would have placed my post at the beginning, but since nothing in the UA allows for use of super-powers, it hand to land where it fell. Aesthetics, really no?
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#135 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 08:17 PM
 
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One more thought.

Paul uses Hupotasso, a military term which brings to mind a chain of command based on power and authorty.
And yet in Philippians 2:3-8, it says
Quote:
"Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.

Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross!"
Jesus said "Love one another as I have loved you".

So, there is no more "chain of command". Even St. Paul said in Galatians 3: 28, 29
Quote:
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
You have to begin interpreting Eph. 5 at verse 21, not verse 22, IMO. You also have to keep going- Paul goes on to describe mutually submissive relationships between children and parents, masters and slaves. You cannot just pull one verse out of the Bible and base a whole philosophy of life on it.

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#136 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 08:19 PM
 
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Sigh. Is no one impressed with my Greek sleuthing? :tappingfootandpouting

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#137 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 08:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
You cannot just pull one verse out of the Bible and base a whole philosophy of life on it.
Absolutely! It goes right back to the idea of context, context, CONTEXT again!

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#138 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 08:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
Sigh. Is no one impressed with my Greek sleuthing? :tappingfootandpouting
I am. So much so I feel quieted in my attempt to take it all in while keeping up with this thread's pace. lol

I'm learning quite a bit in this thread... about the Bible, about marriage, and about myself.

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#139 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 09:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ms.Doula
Thats like me jumping into the middle of a thread I have no buisness being in Say the dads forum or the gay parenting forum) and saying Nope. You are full of crap.

Since when does Religious Studies = Christianity only?
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#140 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 09:21 PM
 
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This thread hits very close to home for me, and I have been reading it with great interest and curiosity. I have decided I will add my experiences and opinions to this very important and intruiging thread.

I was raised Christian. My parents had a very good marriage. They loved and supported each other, listened, and took care of one another. My mother took care of my father every day, even on his deathbed she was sitting right there. I consider what they had to be a Biblical Marraige. They respected each other. My mother would submit, but in a way of letting my father lead the family to Christ. Other then that, it was a partnership. Yes, men and women have different roles. We can't argue with nature and the biological difference between men and women. Men have a natural instinct to protect their loved ones, and solve problems. Women have the natural instinct to be more sensitive, and to be more loving, and to nuture. My mother stayed home because my dad made enough money for us to live on. My father brought home the money. That being said, things were very differnt behind the scenes.

My mother and father each had different roles the household. My mom took care of the household items, grocery shopping, cleaning ext. My dad went to work and came home to a hot meal. But, then didn't do this because it was the "right thing to do before God". They did this because that's what worked out for them. My mother handled all the finances, even though my dad brought home the money. She paid the bills and did all the filing. It made sense, since my dad worked so often. She called the bank, dealt the with insurance companies, and let the repair men in. She choose what we ate, were we went, ext. And she worked part-time from time to time, because she wanted to. If she disagreed with something my dad did, she didn't just sit back and think, oh well, I just should submit because that's what God wants. She spoke up, and they came to an agreement. It was a partnership. My dad never did anything without consulting my mom, and my mom didn't do anything without consulting my dad. Even with their very distinct roles, there was a mutual respect and partnership. My dad loved and protected my mom, and because of this overwhelming love, my mom would submit and admire my father for his love and devotion to his family. This, I believe, is a Biblical Marriage.

To submit to your husband does not mean to let him make all the decisions, control the finances, and just listen, trust and obey. It is not to simply give your husband an opinion, and let him consider it, and go about his way. By all means, if you do not agree with your husband, speak up. Disagree and do not allow him to make a decision which you are not comfortable with. This is not disobeying God. This is standing up for yourself and your family. Marriage is an equal partnership, even when the wife submits to her husband.

A healthy submittance is to let your husband take the lead in the fellowship with Christ, to lead his family to Christ. In return, a husband should love his wife as himself, and as Christ loved the Church, which is His Bride. How Christ loved the Church should be an example of how a man should love his wife. If a man loves his wife as himself, and loves and protects and leads his family to Christ, then a woman has to misgivings submitting to her husband. The marriage itself is an equal partnership, with all parties making decisions regarding the practical nature of marriage, including finances, children, household things. The husband does not make the final decision, but rather both husband and wife, loving and respecting one anothers opinion, should make a joint decision as to what is best for the houshold, practically speaking. Equal say in marriage is so important. When the Bible talks about a wife submitting to her husband, it means to let the father take the lead in the Fellowship. It does not mean to step aside, and to not voice an opinion when an opinion is neccessary. It does not mean bite your tongue as not to "nag". And for a husband, it does not mean being the final say.

What I think is happening is that some are taking the meaning of a Biblical Marriage to literally. The Bible is full of proverbs and not everything it says is to be taken literally. To understand the Bible, one must spend time reading, and pray-reading the Word of God, singing, and praising and loving Jesus. Both husband and wife must be joined together in love and together the man takes the lead to lead the family to Christ. This does not mean that a strong women who speaks her mind in her relationship is disobeying God. It also does not mean that she does not have a Biblical Marriage. No marriage will ever be "ideal". The key to having a stong Christian marriage does not envolve trying to submit and letting the man make all the decisions. It is not about what we do outwardly, but rather how much time with spend in the Word, and praising Him. Together a husband and wife should grow together in Christ Jesus, praising and loving Him together. They should not try to have the "ideal Biblical Marriage". Rather, together they should come to God and pray together for God to bless their marriage, and to pray together when they reach conflict. With love, honor, and a strong relationship with God, as well as being built together with other Christians in the Body of Christ; this is a good way to sustian a marriage, no matter what your outward "roles" are.


Sorry this post was so long! It was a lot to get out, and thanks for listening. For all those whose marriage is working, I am happy for you. This thread has been wondeful to read, with all the different lifestyles and opinions. I hope all of you find peace and love in your marriages, and continue to grow in Christ.

Bethany, crunchy Christian mom to Destiny (11) Deanna (9), and Ethan (2)

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#141 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 09:24 PM
 
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I say God is a story too. :
me three.
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#142 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 09:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms.Doula
Thats like me jumping into the middle of a thread I have no buisness being in Say the dads forum or the gay parenting forum) and saying Nope. You are full of crap.
Ya hey, wait a minute, by whose decree do you judge me unworthy to participate in this thread?
AnnetteMarie, I got sidetracked in my posting but I have found your contributions here to be most educational. I would respond with more, but I have hungry kids and laundry to take care of, so my thoughts are in point-form this afternoon.
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#143 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 10:12 PM
 
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Weighing in with my .02...

I don't have a problem with a woman choosing to submit to a partner who is respectful of her and "loves her like Christ loves the Church". There's no reason why that can't be a viable model for a relationship when both parties act with love and kindness. And perhaps it is even the best model for certain couples -- it does sound like it works for AB and her husband, due to issues he has had in the past. I recognize that AB can suscribe to that model while at the same time allow herself the dignity of escaping if he should not hold up his end of the bargain (I know some people have said that the Pearls counsel against that, but since I don't know much about them I will just go on what AB has said rather than their philosopy.)

HOWEVER, I DO have a problem with this model being held up as "Biblical" i.e. the absolute best model for all people at all times. Not all men have self-esteem problems or require that kind of stroking. Not all women want to be "taken care of". To say that this is the only model for marriage is outrageously simplistic and ignores the fact that people have different personalities.

And after reading AnnetteMarie's impressive analysis (stroke, stroke) of the Bible passage in question, I think there is a Biblical case to be made for some leeway in interpretation.
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#144 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 10:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by littleaugustbaby
Since when does Religious Studies = Christianity only?
Never said it did. this THREAD involves Christianity(all bible believers) though.
I was using an example.
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#145 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 10:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mamajama
Ya hey, wait a minute, by whose decree do you judge me unworthy to participate in this thread?
I didn't SAY you had no buisness being in this thread.... Just that you pointedly declared we are wrong & there is no God. Durring a discussion About God.
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#146 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 10:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ms.Doula
I didn't SAY you had no buisness being in this thread.... Just that you pointedly declared we are wrong & there is no God. Durring a discussion About God.

Actually, the discussion is about Biblical Marriage, and the OP requested a debate. I'd hardly say that mamajama was out of line.
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#147 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 10:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms.Doula
Never said it did. this THREAD involves Christianity(all bible believers) though.
I was using an example.
There is a wide spectrum of spiritual belief. Here's my resume, in brief. I was raised Catholic. My Father was a domineering traditionalist and my mother was just a run-of-the-mill churchgoin' believer. They split up. My mom continued to take us to church (I believe she did so to be on the safe side as she stopped going once we were all moved out) and my father continued to inflict his brand of stoic fundamental religion upon us.
I went to catholic school and was raised with the purest form of Catholic guilt there is. Have you heard the expression "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"? So along with the fact this means that according to the church, I am doomed to burn in eternal hellfire, it also buys me a ticket to participate in religious discussion from a place of education and experience. Small consollation, I know, but I'll take what I can get.
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#148 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 10:48 PM
 
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Not out of line.?.. OK so an example... someone can go into a Thread pertaining to Muslims & say "the Kuran (sp?) Is Fake". or into a thread discussing Homosexual issues & say to Gay/Lesbians "Homosexuality is a lie."

now do you get the point?
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#149 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 10:49 PM
 
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You know, my husband and I have a fantastic marriage. It hasn't always been so -- we have worked hard at it and we have been as patient as we were capable of being through the more difficult times. But over the long haul (going on 12 years), it has been good and strong, and grows more so with time. Neither one of us is Christian (he is an atheist, I am mostly agnostic) and we seem to be doing just fine. There is no submission by one to the other; rather, we work in partnership. If submission of the wife and a belief in Christ is essential to a good marriage (and it certainly seems that the wife-submitting "biblical" marriage is being held out here as the ideal by some), then what am I to make of my marriage, which involves neither? Or the marriages of many other posters here who don't follow the wife-submitting, "biblical" model? Or those of some of my friends and family -- strong, non-Christian marriages as well?

Seems to me what helps partners blossom and thrive in a marriage is maturity and mutual respect. Commitment, love, support, humor, patience...none of which are exclusively the domain of Xtians. I don't believe a marriage in which a wife submits but which lacks these qualities could be considered a good marriage under any definition. And I don't see where the act of a wife submitting herself to her husband is going to bring about those characteristics without an equal effort on the part of the husband -- not in response to her actions, but in concert with them.

For a woman to continually "submit" herself to a husband who does not "submit" in turn to her is self-abuse and destructive to the marriage. A marriage with that dynamic is a weak and shoddy thing, for both partners, and neither should be encouraged to accept such an unsatisfying and unfulfilling relationship.
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#150 of 342 Old 10-11-2005, 10:50 PM
 
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mamajama- WHY do you believe it means that according to your former church, you are doomed to burn in eternal hellfire??
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