parents won't take responsibility for religious circs - Page 5 - Mothering Forums
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#121 of 384 Old 11-15-2005, 02:56 AM
 
jessjgh1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: South Shore MA
Posts: 4,956
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom2seven
As to the 'sentimental' point. So, if you believe that you are 'commanded', then you have a bris milah. If as a Jew, you don't believe you are commanded - you don't do it. To come up with another 'bloodless' circ. or whatever you want to call it seems yes, sentimental. Otherwise, what is the point?
Hmmm. nothing wrong with sentimental in my book.

I'm interfaith, so my wedding ceremony had 'sentimental' pieces of christianity and judaism. If we had a bris shalom, it would have been a 'sentimental' naming ceremony. Without the damage of a circumcision done on our son.

This does not make our son 'less' Jewish (edited to add- in reform tradition- he's already not Jewish by orthodox standards since his mother converted, as I mentioned that's a discussion for another day).

I also beleive as another poster brought up that circumcision is not technically a requirement. So my dh and I will be breaking the commandment (one of many), but our son will not be breaking any commandment by being intact (edited to add- this is what was explained to me by the rabbi, but it may not be true by non-reform standards).


Jessica

Jessica..lady.gifintactlact.gif Falling in love all over again..... 
Dhprivateeyes.gif, Joshua rolleyes.gif Rebeccagrouphug.gifand dog2.gif.    candle.gif for Laura
jessjgh1 is offline  
#122 of 384 Old 11-15-2005, 03:00 AM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessjgh1
So our intact son is Jewish- by Reform standards, at least.
Your son's Reform-Jewishness has nothing to do with his having had a bris shalom or having a circumcision or not. He is Jewish by Reform standards only because your DH is Jewish and you are not. By the other denominations, he is not Jewish ... and would not be even if you'd had him circumcised. Whether or not a baby is Jewish has nothing to do with circumcision.




Quote:
Originally Posted by jessjgh1
I read about one man from Russia who as an adult was circumcised. He had been denied the right to practice his religion in Russia and this was something that felt right to him.
There are thousands of Jewish men from Russia who've been circumcised/had brissim over the past decades first since Jews were finally allowed to emigrate from Russia and second since Jews were finally allowed to practice their Judaism within Russia.




Quote:
Originally Posted by jessjgh1
Maimonides
Did you know that the commentaries of the Rambam (you know him as Maimonides) themselves have thousands of volumes of commentaries? In other words, thousands of volumes have been written by others explaining the Rambam and his explanations and elucidations and commentaries.

What he thought about sex, I can't say. Beyond the fact that it is one of the highest mitzvas we have ... and considered one of the greatest gifts. I have studied very little of the Rambam beyond one volume of the Mishna Torah dealing with the marriage contract, and the one I studied was a translation. His issues don't have to be mine.

And BTW, Judaism does *not* have the same negative issues with sex that Christianity does. It is considered to be the private business of those engaging in it, and nobody else's business. Otherwise, it's something we're supposed to do as often as possible.





Quote:
Originally Posted by jessjgh1
I have SO many questions. I guess for those of you who say you wouldn't circ if you didn't have to for religoius reason- I don't understand why you felt you had to? Do you feel like you cannot question the commandment because it is (for lack of a better word) Sovereign? Do you feel like since it was part of the Torah it is the Truth?
Because, in my opinion, if you can answer yes to those questions then it really isn't worht having an arguement over this issue because I can't argue the Word of God.
Yes.







Quote:
Originally Posted by jessjgh1
I won't argue that the word of God is not Truth, but I will say that I think that the word of God can be interpreted and misinterpreted by God. I think the intent for circumcision was appropriate for the time thousands of years ago. But Now I think it is NOT appropriate and it is unethical- at least without pain relief and with out telling the parent the following:
1. circumcision is painful
2. circumcision is not necessary medically
3. circumcision has potential risks (including death) and
4. circumcision has absolute side effects (namely loss of sexual sensation)
5. (I guess this is optional, but important) circumcision can have detrimental effects on the establishment of breast-feeding
You obviously have not read past your own post, which was #2 on the thread. Traditional Jews know from the Torah that circumcision is painful. Traditional Jews do not care if it's necessary medically. Traditional Jews know that everything in life has potential risks. The side effects are beside the point. And the detrimental effects on the establishment of breastfeeding are arguable ... since Jewish tradition insists on breastfeeding up until at the earliest two years of age. At the earliest. And FTR my sons also breastfed immediately after their bris, as soon as the mohel handed them to me. With perfectly fine latches. And they nursed until 3+ years of age.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jessjgh1
So a question, for those of you who circumcised for religious reasons were you made aware (or were already aware) of those 4 things- or do you disagree with them?
See the above paragraph.





Quote:
Originally Posted by jessjgh1
In my experience, when I brought up those reasons, I was told basically that they were NOT true. The rabbi minimized the pain and the loss of sexual function, for example.
The Reform rabbi you spoke to had his/her own reasons for stating what he/she stated. You will have to ask him/her for an explanation.




Quote:
Originally Posted by jessjgh1
So final question-- do you think your religion follows the aap quidelines as highlighted above?
My religion pre-exists the AAP guidelines by over three millenia. As does the tradition of bris milah. And I think anyone who has a doctor perform a circumcision is making a big mistake. And the AAP has no relevance to the mitzva of bris milah.
merpk is offline  
#123 of 384 Old 11-15-2005, 03:09 AM
 
crazy_eights's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Nisht ahir un nish aher
Posts: 6,837
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I beleive that story is from Hasdic Tales of the Holocaust, stories written down by Yaffa Eliach as heard from a first hand witness, the Bluzhover Rebbe, a Hasidic rabbi who survived the war and lived to be nearly 100. And I think that perhaps you have not seen a bris milah, b/c it is nothing like a medical circ. No clamp, just a knife, takes a matter of seconds and could easily be performed as it was written in the above story.

I also suspect that you haven't read the answers given earlier in the thread or you wouldn't be asking
Quote:
I don't understand why you felt you had to? Do you feel like you cannot question the commandment because it is (for lack of a better word) Sovereign? Do you feel like since it was part of the Torah it is the Truth?
I think we have answered this and answered this and answered it some more. I think you actually do understand b/c you give a succinct answer just after that: you can't argue with the word of G-d. That would be my answer as well. And no, there isn't much point discussing past there.
crazy_eights is offline  
#124 of 384 Old 11-15-2005, 03:33 AM
 
BinahYeteirah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,163
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessjgh1
I have SO many questions. I guess for those of you who say you wouldn't circ if you didn't have to for religoius reason- I don't understand why you felt you had to? Do you feel like you cannot question the commandment because it is (for lack of a better word) Sovereign? Do you feel like since it was part of the Torah it is the Truth?
Because, in my opinion, if you can answer yes to those questions then it really isn't worht having an arguement over this issue because I can't argue the Word of God.
First off, I have daughters, so I have never actually had a son circed. But, I will if I have one.

Yes, I believe the Torah is true. Every word. I suppose we will not argue then.
BinahYeteirah is offline  
#125 of 384 Old 11-15-2005, 03:37 AM
 
BinahYeteirah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,163
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheacoby
BinahYeteirah, thank you for explaining.
You're welcome.
BinahYeteirah is offline  
#126 of 384 Old 11-15-2005, 03:45 AM
 
BinahYeteirah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,163
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessjgh1
I also beleive as another poster brought up that circumcision is not technically a requirement. So my dh and I will be breaking the commandment (one of many), but our son will not be breaking any commandment by being intact.
I don't know that Reform Judaism considers any of the commandments obligatory, other than the obvious ones, such as those against stealing, murder, and the like (any Reform Jews here can inform us on this, if they will). Perhaps you could consider yourselves as not breaking any commandments? Or do you concede that there are commandments that are requirements for Jews? If you do, and if your son is Jewish, then he will be breaking a commandment once he's old enough to give himself a bris mila. Of course all of this is in theory, since your son's Jewishness is limited to the Reform "sect".
BinahYeteirah is offline  
#127 of 384 Old 11-15-2005, 03:48 AM
 
jessjgh1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: South Shore MA
Posts: 4,956
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Actually, I hadn 't read your posts so I didn't know you had answered me b4 I typed that post - and I need to go but just briefly: yes, I have seen a mohel perform a circ. There are several videos available on the internet. It was NOT quick, it was NOT painless, it was not almost painless (as the mohel stated on his website). It didn't look easy- the baby cried and cried. Everybody looked bored. It didn't look very meaninful to me.

My son is intact, so I know how firmly the foreskin adheres to the glans at birth- and how small the penis is and the foreskin is so thin (talking millimeters). I just can't see a mother doing that. I mean- nothing was going to happen to that baby if he was intact- so why bother... but whatever, it just made me so sad to think about inflicting any pain on an infant in a death camp situation. I can't even imagine- me I would just want to hold him and plead for his life. That story- It just had a powerful effect on me- in a negative way. Maybe it is true- tradition/ritual can be that powerful and empowering- but it just struck me as physically difficult to do --- I will be skeptical, perhaps a bit of embellishment by those present- maybe she just did a small cut of the tip- not a full circumcision. See I go on and on, it bothers me so.


I'm still formulating my opinion of religious circ, btw, and people that are as thoughtful and proactive as you are (Chava, Amy I can think of from what I just read) (in your research, for example) are rare. Even though, I stilll don't quite get it- my religious experience and teachers have been more along the lines of 'wrestle with God' . It appears that you do a good deal of that, too- but we do it differently.

You don't question the word of God- and I question almost every thing about God and I ask- is that what God really said, or did the hand/intention of (wo)man interfere. I find it easiy to see many times where the written and oral traditions serve the political times- and I know many Jews, Christians, religious scholars that agree. My first religious course in college was by a religious scholar- and he was Jewish.

And, in my research I just seemed to find many of the religious sites minimalized my list of 4 things, discounted them, and tried to pacify parents concerns. I find that unethical. It is a red flag when I see religious websites that promote half-truths, lies, etc. So this was a BIG thing to me.

I'm just pointing out my 4 qeustions (and the AAP stuff) because I don't think that is ethically right, regardless of religion/medical/whatever? Do you ( do you think it is right that a mohel/doctor tries to pacify parents instead of acnowledging the truths?)?

That's why I bring up the AAP, because I don't think that these Mohels and Rabbi's are being ethical. I guess they don't have to answer to the medical authority- but maybe if they can't be ethical and provide pain relief- maybe they should have to?? That's where I'm getting at, even if I am not being clear (or concise).

We run against unethical doctors a lot in the medical community, so I would like to see infant circumcision regulated better- or made illegal, like FGM.

Sorry it is late, but this IS important to me- it is after all 1:35 am my time. And it takes me forever to write, but I try to get my meaning across.


Oh, Amy- I read your response and I got what you were saying for the most part- and I did get that you realized that the circ is (((((OOPS, made a typo here) NOT painless (I forgot the not in my original posting)- so I wasn't specifically asking you- I did "get" your post- and I agree that you are not hiding behind your religion. I was asking those questions to others too. I know that about my son's Jewishness, but his exclusion from other branches is a subject for another day (-: I knew that about the Jewish view of sex- wish it was better for dh & I, I have his circ to blame for that, partially )-:

I'll go back tomorrow and read through my post and those posted just after it- I'm sure I'll need to clarify somethjing. sorry.

Jessica

Jessica..lady.gifintactlact.gif Falling in love all over again..... 
Dhprivateeyes.gif, Joshua rolleyes.gif Rebeccagrouphug.gifand dog2.gif.    candle.gif for Laura
jessjgh1 is offline  
#128 of 384 Old 11-15-2005, 04:13 AM
 
crazy_eights's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Nisht ahir un nish aher
Posts: 6,837
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
We are also expected to 'wrestle with G-d'. Where we differ is that our starting point is of an infinate Being with an infinate understanding that is greater than ours. So while we may 'wrestle' with understanding and meaning, the underlying observance of Torah is not in question. And we assume that what G-d wants is for the good - whether it within the realm of our limited human understanding or not.
crazy_eights is offline  
#129 of 384 Old 11-15-2005, 04:15 AM
 
BinahYeteirah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,163
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessjgh1
Actually, I hadn 't read your posts so I didn't know you had answered me b4 I typed that post - and I need to go but just briefly: yes, I have seen a mohel perform a circ. There are several videos available on the internet. It was NOT quick, it was NOT painless, it was not almost painless (as the mohel stated on his website). It didn't look easy- the baby cried and cried. Everybody looked bored. It didn't look very meaninful to me.
I don't know which videos you saw. I have seen some. The ones I saw were performed with clamps. This is not the traditional way and it definitely slows things down. The brissim I've seen IRL were quite fast.

It is meaningful to me. The people at the brissim I've attended weren't bored. I don't know what type of crowd you saw. Maybe they didn't value mitzvot in general.
BinahYeteirah is offline  
#130 of 384 Old 11-15-2005, 08:46 AM
 
DaryLLL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Under a Chimpocracy
Posts: 13,708
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
jewfaq.org, a site for Torah observant jews, is one I have had recommended to me by Amy and BB many times, as a helpful site with facts about practices and beliefs of "orthodox" Judaism. There is an article there on brit milah.

http://www.jewfaq.org/birth.htm

Once again (as in Tziona's article), the author shares erroneous, false information about the health "benefits" of circing.

Quote:
Like so many Jewish commandments, the brit milah is commonly perceived to be a hygienic measure; however the biblical text states the reason for this commandment quite clearly: circumcision is an outward physical sign of the eternal covenant between G-d and the Jewish people. It is also a sign that the Jewish people will be perpetuated through the circumcised man. The health benefits of this practice are merely incidental. It is worth noting, however, that circumcised males have a lower risk of certain cancers, and the sexual partners of circumcised males also have a lower risk of certain cancers.
So, the main reason for circing is b/c it is a sign (and the first requirement) of the covenant between HaShem and his people. But, this author (who must be a Talmudic scholar, and not alone in his interpretation) seems to insist circing must be somehow healthful and actually beneficial physically for males, or their God would not require it.

If Reform Jews are thought of as "sentimental", or buffet Jews, by those who consider themselves Torah observant, I wonder what to think of a Jew who erroneously insists (and even teaches) circing is physically healthful, despite current evidence to the contrary? Or one who downplays the pain involved, as jessjgh experienced? I am sad to say this, but I find it intellectually dishonest.

The article goes on to say:

Quote:
A person who is uncircumcised suffers the penalty of kareit, spiritual excision; in other words, regardless of how good a Jew he is in all other ways, a man has no place in the World to Come if he is uncircumcised.
Woah. Now this would be a pretty motivating reason to get your boy circed. Much more important to secure his place in the afterlife than to worry about a lessened sex drive or other discomforts/risks of circing, even if they are lifelong. A human lifespan of 70-some yrs is obviously next to nothing compared to eternity.

And once more, he states his opinion on the risks of circing:

Quote:
To the best of my knowledge, there is no concrete, scientific evidence that circumcision has any harmful effect. The rate of complications from circumcision is one of the lowest of all surgical procedures, and the most common complication is simply excessive bleeding. At most, the latest scientific evidence indicates that the health benefits of circumcision are not as great as previously assumed...
Another, more honest way to say this is: the physical health risks of circing are much greater than previously assumed, and far outweigh any supposed benefits...

Quote:
thus there is no reason to perform routine circumcisions for the purposes of hygiene. However, as stated above, Jewish circumcision is not performed for the purpose of hygiene.

From the traditional Jewish point of view, there is no controversy. The ritual of circumcision was commanded by our Creator, and He certainly knows what is and is not good for us. The G-d who commanded us not to harm ourselves certainly would not command us to do something harmful to ourselves, and even if He did, the observant Jew would nonetheless heed His wishes.
And then he goes on to rec the article Tziona did, which shares the same view.

I know how important this mitzvah is to Jews. I can believe the woman in the concentration camp circed her son, as I know Judean women did it hiding in dusty caves back in the BCE days when the Greeks outlawed circing and tried to stop Judeans from doing it.

I also do not think it is wrong to question this or any other mitzvah, b/c I know Jewish men, Talmudic scholars, have argued Torah in the greatest most minute details for centuries and disagree on so many points. They argue, they discuss, they reinterpret and try to apply logic and science, and/or go the other way into mysticism (Kabbalah), they often get angry and sarcastic with each other. But ultimately, the Torah observant Jew still comes down positively on the side of circing and often (as in these two articles) seems to rationalize and downplay its health risks.

Quote:
Nowhere does a person have more potential for expressing "barbaric" behavior than in the sex drive. That's why the Bris is done on this specific organ. If we bring holiness into our life there, then all other areas will follow.
This view seems to suggest, the penis can cause harm, so (God commands) we will harm it first to "tame" it.
DaryLLL is offline  
#131 of 384 Old 11-15-2005, 10:39 AM
 
numom499's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: utah
Posts: 1,931
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessjgh1
Hmmm. nothing wrong with sentimental in my book.

I'm interfaith, so my wedding ceremony had 'sentimental' pieces of christianity and judaism. If we had a bris shalom, it would have been a 'sentimental' naming ceremony. Without the damage of a circumcision done on our son.

This does not make our son 'less' Jewish. I also beleive as another poster brought up that circumcision is not technically a requirement. So my dh and I will be breaking the commandment (one of many), but our son will not be breaking any commandment by being intact.

Gotta love it

Jessica


aside, and meant respectfully, but, don't Jewish people believe that children are their mothers religion, or that Judaism comes down from their mother?
nak
numom499 is offline  
#132 of 384 Old 11-15-2005, 11:07 AM
 
numom499's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: utah
Posts: 1,931
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
ok...and just chiming in here with my opinion...

FTR, I am a Christian. I am against RIC. None of my boys are circed. however, I have no problem with observant Jews circing. Witha trained mohel. I think it is hypocritical of non-observant Jews to use their religion as an excuse.

With that being said, how do you all feel about Moromons who believe their religion/prophet/God directs them into polygamy, even with minors? The men that marry many women, including young ones truly belive they are saving those girls a place in heaven...
numom499 is offline  
#133 of 384 Old 11-15-2005, 02:04 PM
 
jessjgh1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: South Shore MA
Posts: 4,956
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by numom499
aside, and meant respectfully, but, don't Jewish people believe that children are their mothers religion, or that Judaism comes down from their mother?
nak
Orthodox and other 'sects' believe different things.

My dh is not Jewish by Orthodox tradition because his mother converted to reform judaism- so my son's Jewishness is already argueable.

Usually the line goes through the mother- however, reform Judaism allows more flexibility- although they encourage people to go through a conversion process, to follow the commandments, etc.

There are also many Jews who do not identify with the religion at ALL, but identify with Judaism as a culture. It is a very difficult issue- but that's why it was so hard for me to understand because my dh would probably consider himself a secular Jew- yet he wanted to circumcise.


Jessica

Jessica..lady.gifintactlact.gif Falling in love all over again..... 
Dhprivateeyes.gif, Joshua rolleyes.gif Rebeccagrouphug.gifand dog2.gif.    candle.gif for Laura
jessjgh1 is offline  
#134 of 384 Old 11-15-2005, 02:06 PM
 
BelovedBird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: HOME!! Northern Israel
Posts: 3,505
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheacoby
There are Jews on this site (MDC) they do not circ , so do you also think they know nothing about their religion and their reasons are also ridiculous?
Hm. I haven't seen them speak up thus far on this thread and I do not recall any that keep every other torah mitzva but don't circ.
I have done quite a bit of reading on the anti bris jewish sites and groups and yes, I must say I find them to be quite ignorant about torah and traditional judaism. I also find that as soon as a thread like this comes up the word gets out and they will soon come trolling.
Quote:
Do you feel they aren't truly Jewish?
Talk about ignorance. Now, why in the world would you ask that?

Mom of 5 boys- 13, 10, 8, 2 : and newbie Aug. 24th, '09 . babywearing advocate . Cook, baker, homemaker, wife to a man with another woman's kidney (live altruistic, unknown donor).
BelovedBird is offline  
#135 of 384 Old 11-15-2005, 02:50 PM
 
DaryLLL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Under a Chimpocracy
Posts: 13,708
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
DaryLLL is offline  
#136 of 384 Old 11-15-2005, 02:52 PM
 
LavenderMae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: where I write my own posts!
Posts: 13,477
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BelovedBird
Talk about ignorance. Now, why in the world would you ask that?
I realize it's not your place to question wether someone is Jewish or not but your judgemental tone suggest you do anyway.
BTW, the question wasn't to you and the the poster it was to showed much respect when answering unlike you.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
LavenderMae is offline  
#137 of 384 Old 11-15-2005, 02:55 PM
 
Bekka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Virginia
Posts: 2,233
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by numom499
With that being said, how do you all feel about Moromons who believe their religion/prophet/God directs them into polygamy, even with minors? The men that marry many women, including young ones truly belive they are saving those girls a place in heaven...
I'm Mormon. Since 1890, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has not condoned polygamy. In fact, we believe that God said to our then-prophet that it should cease. We believe that it was a revelation from God to the prophet.

Anyone in Utah, Idaho, Arizona or other places who calls themselves Mormon in this day and age and practices polygamy is NOT a recognized Mormon according to our Church. If they had been a Mormon and began practicing polygamy, they would have been excommunicated.

I have ancestors who participated in plural marriage, and it can be difficult to wrap your mind around! I have had huge wrestles on this topic. But Abraham (Ibrahim/Avraham) had multiple wives, as did Jacob/Israel. But according to The Book of Mormon, the people who lived in the Americas were to NOT practice plural marriage. There is a huge discussion about it in the Book of Mormon. In Isaiah, it says, paraphrased, "For my ways are not thy ways, saith the Lord." It is not for me to always understand why.

And it was originally instituted by Joseph Smith because God said so.

Wow, and I wasn't going to read this thread to the end ...

I would have started another thread, but I don't know how to start another thread and quote someone at the same time.
Bekka is offline  
#138 of 384 Old 11-15-2005, 03:06 PM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessjgh1
but it just struck me as physically difficult to do --- I will be skeptical, perhaps a bit of embellishment by those present- maybe she just did a small cut of the tip- not a full circumcision. See I go on and on, it bothers me so.
I know of several fathers who performed their sons' brissim. They are NONE OF THEM doctors or mohelim or anything of the sort. They did, admittedly, each have a mohel next to them if necessary. But they managed just fine.




Quote:
Originally Posted by jessjgh1
I'm still formulating my opinion of religious circ, btw, and people that are as thoughtful and proactive as you are (Chava, Amy I can think of from what I just read) (in your research, for example) are rare. Even though, I stilll don't quite get it- my religious experience and teachers have been more along the lines of 'wrestle with God' . It appears that you do a good deal of that, too- but we do it differently.
Excuse me. G!dwrestling is not a new invention of the new denominations. Avraham Avinu did it verbally, and Yaakov Avinu did it physically. And what do you think all those multitudinous volumes of Judaic exposition and commentary are, if not G!dwrestling?

The difference I found ... and I've been a proud "member" of the other denominations at various points in my search ... is that the other denominations come from a place of skepticism and a place of trying to reconcile Judaism and Jewish thought with the surrounding Christian majority's traditions and thoughts and philosophy.

You'll note that Jews from the Muslim countries and others in the East (Sephardim and Mizrakhi Jews) do not have these otherly-denominated ideas. They just are observant or they are not. Perhaps that came from the fact that they faced much less persecution at the hands of the Muslims. Not zero, but vastly hugely less.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jessjgh1
My first religious course in college was by a religious scholar- and he was Jewish.



Point being?





Quote:
Originally Posted by jessjgh1
And, in my research I just seemed to find many of the religious sites minimalized my list of 4 things, discounted them, and tried to pacify parents concerns. I find that unethical. It is a red flag when I see religious websites that promote half-truths, lies, etc. So this was a BIG thing to me. I'm just pointing out my 4 qeustions (and the AAP stuff) because I don't think that is ethically right, regardless of religion/medical/whatever? Do you ( do you think it is right that a mohel/doctor tries to pacify parents instead of acnowledging the truths?)? That's why I bring up the AAP, because I don't think that these Mohels and Rabbi's are being ethical. I guess they don't have to answer to the medical authority- but maybe if they can't be ethical and provide pain relief- maybe they should have to?? That's where I'm getting at, even if I am not being clear (or concise).
Whatever religious sites you went to, then I guess you shouldn't go to them again. The religious sites I would go to wouldn't minimize the pain because the Torah tells us that it's terribly painful.






Quote:
Originally Posted by jessjgh1
Oh, Amy- I read your response and I got what you were saying for the most part- and I did get that you realized that the circ is painless- so I wasn't specifically asking you- I did "get" your post- and I agree that you are not hiding behind your religion. I was asking those questions to others too. I know that about my son's Jewishness, but his exclusion from other branches is a subject for another day (-: I knew that about the Jewish view of sex- wish it was better for dh & I, I have his circ to blame for that, partially )-:

I'll go back tomorrow and read through my post and those posted just after it- I'm sure I'll need to clarify somethjing. sorry.

Jessica

No, you didn't read my response if you got that "I realized the circ is painless," because I never, ever said or implied such a thing. So perhaps reread my posts.
merpk is offline  
#139 of 384 Old 11-15-2005, 03:15 PM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessjgh1
Orthodox and other 'sects' believe different things.

My dh is not Jewish by Orthodox tradition because his mother converted- so my son's Jewishness is already argueable.


No, no, no and no again. If your DH's mother converted with a traditional conversion, certainly if she converted with an Orthodox conversion, he'd be as Jewish as me. And so would his mother.




Quote:
Originally Posted by jessjgh1
Usually the line goes through the mother- however, reform Judaism allows more flexibility- although they encourage people to go through a conversion process, to follow the commandments, etc.
Yes. The line goes through the mother. In the early 1970s the Reform movement changed its bylaws to allow patrilineal descent, to take away the mother's centrality in passing on "Jewish genes" and make it by both. However. HUGE however. Even according to the Reform movement, just by dint of a Jewish father does not make you Jewish. According to the Reform movement, you must be a participating member in a Reform synagogue and put your child through their Hebrew school.

Otherwise you are not Jewish by Reform standards.

As a matter of fact, UAHC (Reform movement) head Rabbi Eric Joffe has criticized the Chabad (Khassidishe/Orthodox) movement specifically because they (and all Orthodox, but he was bashing Chabad in that particular statement) consider anyone born of a Jewish mother to be Jewish, and don't require any synagogue membership or Hebrew school or any such stuff, they just accept that person as Jewish even if they don't do any anything Jewish their whole life.

Can you imagine such a thing, oy vey.









Quote:
Originally Posted by jessjgh1
There are also many Jews who do not identify with the religion at ALL, but identify with Judaism as a culture. It is a very difficult issue- but that's why it was so hard for me to understand because my dh would probably consider himself a secular Jew- yet he wanted to circumcise.

Jessica

Yes, because Judaism is more than a religion. It is also a nationality, a shared history, shared culture, an ethnicity ... BelovedBird has had wonderful posts on this in the past, wish I knew where to look for them.
merpk is offline  
#140 of 384 Old 11-15-2005, 03:19 PM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheacoby
I realize it's not your place to question wether someone is Jewish or not but your judgemental tone suggest you do anyway.
BTW, the question wasn't to you and the the poster it was to showed much respect when answering unlike you.

You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

BB's whole point is that SHE WAS NOT QUESTIONING THEIR JEWISHNESS. No religious Jew questions the Jewishness of anyone born of a Jewish mother no matter what their penis looks like.

And the fact that people here keep saying that anyone is questioning the Jewishness of Jews who don't circ means that you're just not listening, or not paying attention when you're reading our posts, or just have this thing in your head that you can't wrap your brain around ... but you've got to get over it.

BB was saying exactly the opposite of what you apparently think she said. And she said it very clearly, too.
merpk is offline  
#141 of 384 Old 11-15-2005, 03:21 PM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
And not that the tangent into polygamy has any relevance here, but Jews only abolished polygamy in Judaism about a thousand years ago. Rabbeinu Gershom issued the rule, and everyone followed it.

What does polygamy have to do with this, anyway? Are people saying polygamists are hiding behind their religion? Or something?
merpk is offline  
#142 of 384 Old 11-15-2005, 03:23 PM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
And lastly, jessjgh1, I'm sorry that your view of Judaism is solely through the Internet. It would be nice to introduce you to some real people who are actually spiritually Jewish, as opposed to virtual people who are apparently only culturally Jewish.

Are you on the East Coast?

merpk is offline  
#143 of 384 Old 11-15-2005, 03:31 PM
 
LavenderMae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: where I write my own posts!
Posts: 13,477
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by merpk
You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

BB's whole point is that SHE WAS NOT QUESTIONING THEIR JEWISHNESS. No religious Jew questions the Jewishness of anyone born of a Jewish mother no matter what their penis looks like.

And the fact that people here keep saying that anyone is questioning the Jewishness of Jews who don't circ means that you're just not listening, or not paying attention when you're reading our posts, or just have this thing in your head that you can't wrap your brain around ... but you've got to get over it.

BB was saying exactly the opposite of what you apparently think she said. And she said it very clearly, too.
Like I said she may say and even mean it that she doesn't question others Jewsishness but I HAVE READ her post and they would suggest otherwise. Nothing you or BelovedBird has written is so complex I just can't wrap my brain around it. No I don't have anything to get over. Yes she clearly was being disrespectful and rude, as you are.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
LavenderMae is offline  
#144 of 384 Old 11-15-2005, 03:44 PM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaryLLL
jewfaq.org, a site for Torah observant jews, is one I have had recommended to me by Amy and BB many times, as a helpful site with facts about practices and beliefs of "orthodox" Judaism ...
his author (who must be a Talmudic scholar, and not alone in his interpretation) seems to insist circing must be somehow healthful and actually beneficial physically for males, or their God would not require it.

If Reform Jews are thought of as "sentimental", or buffet Jews, by those who consider themselves Torah observant, I wonder what to think of a Jew who erroneously insists (and even teaches) circing is physically healthful, despite current evidence to the contrary? Or one who downplays the pain involved, as jessjgh experienced? I am sad to say this, but I find it intellectually dishonest.

I do love the jewfaq site. She (the author of it) has done a great job. She is NOT Orthodox, and states so bluntly, she identifies as Conservative, leaning more to the traditional side of Conservative. Go to the "about the author" link on the home page of the site, and you will see her qualifications. She's not a Talmudic scholar or a rabbi, but she *is* a law librarian.

And BTW, it's not "for" Torah observant Jews, because for most Torah observant Jews the stuff on her site is so elementary that kids in first grade in yeshiva know it well enough to tell it in their sleep. And no, that's not an exaggeration. So I'd say it's for those who don't know much about their Judaism, or who aren't Jewish altogether.



That's first.

Secondly, you keep putting words in our mouths that are horrifying. You say "but then are they really Jews?" or "buffet Jews." Stop. We Jews have enough problems with shalom bayis (peace in our home) on our own without you stirring the cholent (ie., causing trouble that doesn't exist otherwise).
The children of Jewish mothers are Jews, whether they identify as Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, Carlebach, Shmendrik, whatever. And bris milah is irrelevant to the "who is a Jew" equation, so stop bringing it in. We haven't, and it's disingenuous for you to keep bringing it up with the "well, do you say they are Jewish?" question. Because you know darn well what you're doing when you do that.

Kind of like the lawyer saying, "When did you stop beating your wife?" to the witness. IYKWIM.





Quote:
Originally Posted by DaryLLL
I also do not think it is wrong to question this or any other mitzvah, b/c I know Jewish men, Talmudic scholars, have argued Torah in the greatest most minute details for centuries and disagree on so many points. They argue, they discuss, they reinterpret and try to apply logic and science, and/or go the other way into mysticism (Kabbalah), they often get angry and sarcastic with each other. But ultimately, the Torah observant Jew still comes down positively on the side of circing and often (as in these two articles) seems to rationalize and downplay its health risks.
No Jew thinks it's wrong to question anything, to discuss anything, and then to write books of multiple volumes memorializing the discussions and questions. In the end, Judaism is what it is.

As a PP mentioned, you can speculate all you want on the health benefits of avoiding pig meat in ancient times, it still has zip to do with the laws of kashrus. And the fact that those health benefits are irrelevant today with sanitary refrigeration blahblahblah also has zip to do with the laws of kashrus. Fact is that Judaism doesn't allow eating pigs. And the fact that millions of Jews choose to eat pig only proves that there are millions of Jews who are exercising their G!d-given freedom of choice to live outside of Torah law and ignore the laws of kashrus. And there are millions of Jews who are exercising their G!d given freedom of choice to live within Torah law and follow the laws of kashrus meticulously.







Quote:
Originally Posted by DaryLLL
This view seems to suggest, the penis can cause harm, so (God commands) we will harm it first to "tame" it.
One view. You want a thousand others?

My understanding is that no body part causes anything, it's all within a person's individual will.

The logic of your argument is twisted because you're arguing something that's beyond logic. Sorry, you can't help it, you don't know any better.

But if it's logic you want ... since the Torah obligation to provide sexual pleasure is only on the man to pleasure his wife (the woman has no such reciprocal obligation to pleasure her husband), then it makes no sense for Torah to "tame" an instrument of said pleasure, not to mention something that will more than likely make such pleasure quite difficult.

Just rambling. Not well thought out, just off the top of my head.

merpk is offline  
#145 of 384 Old 11-15-2005, 03:48 PM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheacoby
Yes she clearly was being disrespectful and rude, as you are.

Oh, the irony.
merpk is offline  
#146 of 384 Old 11-15-2005, 03:48 PM
 
crazy_eights's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Nisht ahir un nish aher
Posts: 6,837
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Daryl - The point of the jewfaq article is that you often hear non-Observant Jews boil all of Judaism down to health reasons. Why do we keep kosher? Trichinosis, don't ya' know? And circ? Well, it's b/c they didn't have water in the desert and you want sand getting IN THERE?!?!?!

Point being made is that any health benefits (real or imaginary) are SECONDARY and incidental. The real reason is for the mitzvah (torah commandment) and that should be it.
crazy_eights is offline  
#147 of 384 Old 11-15-2005, 03:50 PM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheacoby
Like I said she may say and even mean it that she doesn't question others Jewsishness but I HAVE READ her post and they would suggest otherwise. Nothing you or BelovedBird has written is so complex .
And no, she hasn't suggested that at all. Reread her post.

Having spent more than a few hours in her presence I can personally attest to the fact that BelovedBird is the least subtle and bluntest person I've ever met in my life. It's part of her charm, actually.



If she would have said ANYTHING resembling what you're accusing her of, it would have been stated plain, and not "suggested."

merpk is offline  
#148 of 384 Old 11-15-2005, 03:55 PM
 
LavenderMae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: where I write my own posts!
Posts: 13,477
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by merpk
Oh, the irony.
I have showed a lot of respect on this thread dispite the fact you have been rude to me personally again and again. And yet again.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
LavenderMae is offline  
#149 of 384 Old 11-15-2005, 03:58 PM
 
LavenderMae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: where I write my own posts!
Posts: 13,477
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by merpk
And no, she hasn't suggested that at all. Reread her post.

Having spent more than a few hours in her presence I can personally attest to the fact that BelovedBird is the least subtle and bluntest person I've ever met in my life. It's part of her charm, actually.



If she would have said ANYTHING resembling what you're accusing her of, it would have been stated plain, and not "suggested."

I have reread her post and I guess I'll just take your word for it seeing you know her.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
LavenderMae is offline  
#150 of 384 Old 11-15-2005, 03:59 PM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by me
Oh, the irony.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheacoby
I have showed a lot of respect on this thread dispite the fact you have been rude to me personally again and again. And yet again.


How is saying "oh, the irony," rude?

How is it rude to point out the irony that you are calling me rude, in a thread whose sole reason for existence is being rude and insulting to me and mine?

(I mean, think about it. If you want to convince others not to circumcise, there are better ways to go about it than to insult specifically religious people who circumcise ... unless the insulting the religious people is the point, in which case then please be honest and upfront about the purpose thankyouverymuch.)

And how is it rude to respond with personal experiences and facts over and over again, and when others try to put words that don't exist into our posts, to call them on it?

Please, explain.

And if you call this post rude, I'm going to crack up.
merpk is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off