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#61 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 12:26 AM
 
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Hey, this dudes tired already ----->
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#62 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 12:28 AM
 
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You know what really gets my goat? That there are women on this very board in emotionally (and I wouldn't be at all surprised if they were physically as well) abusive relationships, and because it's veiled under the guise of "religion" it isn't questioned by the women themselves, nor is it even *allowed* to be questioned by us, the members of this board. I see relgion used as an excuse for all sorts of oppression, be it homophobia, racism, or sexism, and because it's under the almighty title of Religion, it's wrong to question or object. Where is the sense in this? Why so much protection afforded to victims of oppression or oppressing ideals from the very people who could help them? Why is everything all sugar-coated with freakin' lovey dovey smilies . It's not lovey dovey at all. It's out and out misogyny. Same crap as white supremacy. And it really bothers me tremendously that it's allowed to spew forth without question. I'm all for freedom of speech, but there really needs to be room for discenting opinions, especially countering supporters of extremely dangerous ideologies.
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#63 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 12:34 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tracymom
And this is a noble sentiment, I would completely agree. But this is your situation. What if your DH wasn't respectful? What if he treated you badly, squandered money, left you and your children hungry? What does one do, if one has embraced the doctrine of submission? That, I think, is what a lot of people are trying to understand.
The thing is.....Majority of submissive wives are married to GREAT, honest, loving men.

In the case that a man is not God fearing and makes bad choices......first (and I say this with the utmost respect) I believe the problem goes much deeper. Why do women marry who they marry? Does the woman has self worth issues BEFORE marrying a less then worthy man?

Also, I do believe that there are times when divorce are called for. I personally DO NOT believe that God would want us to stay in a situation that is dangerous for ourselves and our children physically, emotionally, spiritually. Once you have done all that you can, you give it to God, and you walk away.

Divorce should not be taken lightly however.

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#64 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 12:36 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by my~hearts~light
Hey, this dudes tired already ----->
Well.....he is now! :

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#65 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 12:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AngelBee
The thing is.....Majority of submissive wives are married to GREAT, honest, loving men.
Where are you getting this information?

Quote:
In the case that a man is not God fearing and makes bad choices......first (and I say this with the utmost respect) I believe the problem goes much deeper. Why do women marry who they marry? Does the woman has self worth issues BEFORE marrying a less then worthy man?
This is utter garbage and if you choose to edit, I'd be happy to erase the quote. Honey, I'm afraid you know not of what you speak

Quote:
Also, I do believe that there are times when divorce are called for. I personally DO NOT believe that God would want us to stay in a situation that is dangerous for ourselves and our children physically, emotionally, spiritually. Once you have done all that you can, you give it to God, and you walk away.
A thousand times over *what is all you can do??? Where can you draw the line? When do you stop "submitting" and start putting your foot down? When do you, as a woman, stop blaming yourself for your husband's shortfalls and kick him out of the house?*
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#66 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 12:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelBee
The thing is.....Majority of submissive wives are married to GREAT, honest, loving men.
Opinion, perhaps? Do you have a source or statistics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelBee
In the case that a man is not God fearing and makes bad choices......first (and I say this with the utmost respect) I believe the problem goes much deeper. Why do women marry who they marry? Does the woman has self worth issues BEFORE marrying a less then worthy man?
Hm. Not that it doesn't take two to make it or break a relationship, but you don't really know someone until you marry 'em. Not really. And sometimes people change for the better, and sometimes for the worse. And what you said above sounds a WHOLE lot like "she asked for it," or it does to me.
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#67 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 01:07 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AngelBee
Well.....he is now! :
him too.
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#68 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 01:21 AM
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One thing I have noticed is the same people who preach one directional submission (wife only) preach that the Bible mandates spanking.

I think the two are part of the same patriarchal system that must be addressed.

As others have noted, I believe in mutual respect and mutual submission. I don't go to have sushi with my dh because he's very picky and doesn't even eat *cooked* fish not to mention raw fish. My children *love* sushi and we'll eat it as a treat when dh isn't here for dinner. We try to favor the other and it works out well when you have a healthy relationship with two kind and healthy people.

I do think that the one way submission *cultivates* a culture of abuse and it may not take as much as you might think for things to go sour quickly. Patriarchal preachers (who also want to see young children beaten) aren't particularly progressive or enlightened.

DB
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#69 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 01:36 AM
 
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That's a very good point Debra. I see the correlation.
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#70 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 01:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by DaryLLL
28 yrs here of beautiful mutual submission and respect.

How many years have you been married, Debra Baker?
Congrats.
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#71 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 02:16 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DebraBaker
One thing I have noticed is the same people who preach one directional submission (wife only) preach that the Bible mandates spanking.

I think the two are part of the same patriarchal system that must be addressed.

As others have noted, I believe in mutual respect and mutual submission. I don't go to have sushi with my dh because he's very picky and doesn't even eat *cooked* fish not to mention raw fish. My children *love* sushi and we'll eat it as a treat when dh isn't here for dinner. We try to favor the other and it works out well when you have a healthy relationship with two kind and healthy people.

I do think that the one way submission *cultivates* a culture of abuse and it may not take as much as you might think for things to go sour quickly. Patriarchal preachers (who also want to see young children beaten) aren't particularly progressive or enlightened.

DB
Hmmmm.....sad assumption.

We do not spank. We do not punish. We do not threaten.

I have NEVER been abused by my husband.

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#72 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 02:23 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tracymom
Opinion, perhaps? Do you have a source or statistics?
.
I have a feeling I know alot more submissive wives then you do. That is how I know it to be true that a majority are in loving, respectful marriages. I do not need statistics to prove what I see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tracymom
Hm. Not that it doesn't take two to make it or break a relationship, but you don't really know someone until you marry 'em. Not really. And sometimes people change for the better, and sometimes for the worse. And what you said above sounds a WHOLE lot like "she asked for it," or it does to me.
What is the divorce rate in the US? You don't think that maybe we as a culture are doing something wrong in the selection process?

Also.....how many times have you heard about abuse cycles repeating? Alot of stories about women/men chosing spouses similar to what they grew up with. Sad an unhealthy relationships. You can find this in hetrosexual, homosexual, mutual submission, wive submission, married, dating.......in MANY different relationships.

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#73 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 02:29 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by mamajama
A thousand times over *what is all you can do??? Where can you draw the line? When do you stop "submitting" and start putting your foot down? When do you, as a woman, stop blaming yourself for your husband's shortfalls and kick him out of the house?*
For me personally....the line is when my own and my childrens well being physically, emotionally, or spiritually is being compromised.

Personally that would include but is not limited to drug abuse, alcoholism, adultry, ANY sort of pediphile behavior, ANY abuse whether verbal, emotional or physical, adultry.....

Now in some of the above cases, I would be willing to seek council to see if we could work through it.

If my husband EVER touched a child inappropriately (hitting or sexual) it would take all that I have within me not to kill him. His ass would be in jail for certain......without a wife!

It is one thing (again.....in my opinion) to sin and fall as a Christian, it is another to violate others. I have NO tolerance for that.

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#74 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 02:31 AM - Thread Starter
 
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DISCLAIMER: I am only speaking from my own experience as a submissive wife. Others may feel differently. Please take it as that.....my own personal experience and opinion.

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#75 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 02:44 AM
 
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DB -

Having been heavily involved in wife-submission cultures my entire life (up until about 2 years ago now), I've seen a heavy correlation between those who put out books/tapes on wife submission and spanking kids. It's all under the 'family' ministries umbrella and I've never met anyone who believed in wife submission but not spanking IRL who was in ministry or anyone else for that matter.

My dh and I had a lot to sort through when we left that culture but we both feel our marriage is much better without it. It brought us closer together to go through that transition.

I am curious, those who believe in wife submission - does that mean you are pro-patriarchy? Do you feel that it gives certain powers unequally (even if you feel the wife has different 'powers') in the marriage?

I'd REALLY like to see it spelled out where everyone feels the line is drawn and a woman no longer has to submit. [eta: I think Angelbee posted while I was writing this] I think that's a dangerous slope to be on if you take it really far. I also think it's an easy place to give up being responsible for your own choices and life direction. "my husband made the choice and I went along with it." My parents are really into the submission thing and my mother wouldn't like a color my dad didn't like. He barks out orders and she jumps and runs to fulfill them. He 'makes' her keep her hair really long (down to her knees) and it is really difficult for her to care for and she wants to cut it but he won't 'let' her. He has kept her under his thumb their whole marriage and she has slowly crumbled into being his little servant. She can't hold down a job because he is her whole world and she spends day and night doing his bidding. They've recently had a 'marriage revival' and started sending my dh and I books and tapes on wife submission because my dad started helping dry the dishes and figured out how to put his laundry in the basket after 32 years of marriage.

They are both completely dependant on each other. Neither could survive without the other. My dad has not cared for himself in 32 years in any domestic function. He can't make himself a sandwich. My mom has not worked outside of the home in 29 years and has no ability to even grasp the job world. She has no understanding of money or taxes or the business world. She drives very little. They're in their mid 50's and are uber healthy and will probably live a long time, especially my mom.

To my dh and I their marriage is abhorrent. My dad regularly says rude things to my mom and treats her like a servant. My mom jumps up and scurries off to do his bidding. It's embarrassing to have to watch. Even if my dad changed his ways and treated her with respect, I'd have a problem with my mom giving up so many wonderful things about herself to 'become' what my dad wants in life. There really used to be a lot to her but a lot of that stuff has been overshadowed by deciding to be my dad's helpmeet.

Do those of you who participate in wife submission marriages feel that co-dependancy is something that is unhealthy in a marriage? What do you feel is the difference?

I mean I do all the cooking in our home and DH cleans up the kitchen afterwards - because I'm a great cook and he is a great cleaner. But at times we switch roles because I'm too tired to cook or he has to go to class and doesn't have time to clean up. With decision making we just talk until we agree and in 5 years we've yet to hit something that we couldn't talk out and come to a point of agreement on. And we've been through some tough things in that time. We submit to each other equally.

For those who are glad to hear that others think their marriage sounds 'normal' do you reciprocate your approval on the non-wife submitting marriages who also fit that description?
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#76 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 02:46 AM
 
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Angelbee: So could you provide a specific example of how you are submissive?? I'm honestly confused. You say, in this thread that you don't roll over to his opinions, you make mutual decisions on all major things, you would divorce him in a heartbeat over those major infractions, he would go for sushi with you even though he gags at the mere thought of sushi, you will not tolerate verbal, emotional or any other form of abuse,. You also stated that there has never been a decision made in your marriage that you both didn't just agree on anyway. So where's the submission?
Let's say he wants to move to another state and you don't. What would you do?


Becky: we cross-posted. I really appreciate your words and experience. Thought provoking questions as well. Thank you.
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#77 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 02:56 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by mamajama
Let's say he wants to move to another state and you don't. What would you do?
We would discuss it.

In the end though, the final decision would be his.

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#78 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 02:59 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Becky....I am sorry about your experience.

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#79 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 03:25 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AngelBee
Becky....I am sorry about your experience.
what are you sorry about?
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#80 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 03:27 AM
 
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How does this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelBee
We would discuss it.

In the end though, the final decision would be his.
Reconcile with this:
Quote:
For me personally....the line is when my own and my childrens well being physically, emotionally, or spiritually is being compromised.
He wants to move to another state and you don't but you'd take his decision over yours? How is that not compromising your (and in turn, your children's) emotional wellbeing?
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#81 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 05:25 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mamajama
Where can you draw the line? When do you stop "submitting" and start putting your foot down? When do you, as a woman, stop blaming yourself for your husband's shortfalls and kick him out of the house?*
I want to ask a similar question, a less extreme situation. Not when do you kick him out, but when do you have or take the "final say" in a matter? If he's foolishly running the family finances into the ground (or below), or doesn't see a need to plan now for retirement income, at what point does the security of your family or your future become threatened enough to say, "I'm making this decision."

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#82 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 05:36 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by mamajama
what are you sorry about?
That her mother is treated poorly

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#83 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 05:39 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by mamajama

He wants to move to another state and you don't but you'd take his decision over yours? How is that not compromising your (and in turn, your children's) emotional wellbeing?
I trust his judgement. If he believes that is in the best interest of our family, I will fully support his decision.

It would then become Both of our decisions to move

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#84 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 05:41 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann-Marita
I want to ask a similar question, a less extreme situation. Not when do you kick him out, but when do you have or take the "final say" in a matter? If he's foolishly running the family finances into the ground (or below), or doesn't see a need to plan now for retirement income, at what point does the security of your family or your future become threatened enough to say, "I'm making this decision."
I would discuss it with him. I would also pray for God to show him the effect of what he is doing.

If necessary, I would talked to our priest as well.

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#85 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 06:45 AM
 
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You didn't really answer my question. You stated some steps you would take.

But at point do you say "I'm making this decision because it is the right thing to do for our family."

Or, because it isn't one of the "major" things (abuse, adultery, etc), do you still submit, even if the path he is taking will result in financial ruin for your family in the hear and now, or will result in you being destitute in your old age?

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#86 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 09:33 AM
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We've been married for 25 years.

I don't see how its fair to have one person make the final decision about something serious and potentially disruptive like a move.

With us, we don't do something as drastic as that unless both agree. The person who wants to stay the course is the one who is respected. The one who wants to make a radical change must convince the more conservative one to change. If I were to guess, I'd say my dh is actually the more conservative one and I'm the crazy dreamer one so I end up defering to him more often but the tables have been turned. Frequently.

We're pretty conservative and cautious but this method has worked well for us these 25 going on 26 years.

Debra Baker
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#87 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 11:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelBee
I have a feeling I know alot more submissive wives then you do. That is how I know it to be true that a majority are in loving, respectful marriages. I do not need statistics to prove what I see.
You don't need stats to prove what you see, but you need stats to show the *reality*. We all have a tendency to view others as similar to ourselves--and that is not necessarily true. Also, you likely know a select group if submissive wives IRL and URL, not representative at all of the whole. Esp if you only know non-spanking submissive wives (ap families). That would be a small subset of the submissive wives, I would bet.

Again, my question was: Why reject the (seemingly obvious at first glance) interpretation of "rod" scripture that promote spanking and rationalize abuse, but not reject the interpretation of "submissive" scriptures that promote sexism and rationalize abuse?

I have no doubt that you are being honest, and this family structure works for you. Your family. And your interpretation of the structure. My problem is this family structure being presented as the "biblical way" and the "moral superior" and "God's plan". Because we are all individuals (surely parents, of all people, know that looking at our children), and not all families will ideally function the same way. Not all men can handle, or even want, this kind of authority in a family. Not all women fit the "help meet" role.
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#88 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 11:38 AM
 
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And those that try to force themselves into this mold, as in my story above of the Fundie Trucker and his Little Woman, suffer a living hell on earth as a consequence.
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#89 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 12:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DaryLLL
And those that try to force themselves into this mold, as in my story above of the Fundie Trucker and his Little Woman, suffer a living hell on earth as a consequence.
So do you feel this is an optional marriage arrangement for people with whom the dynamics are in place for it to work well or do you feel it is "God's plan for all marriages" and everybody should start doing it in their homes asap?
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#90 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 01:18 PM
 
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I think this setup assumes a few things:

1) The dh is Christian and wants to be the "head of the household"

2) The dh is financially responsible

3) The dh is sexually faithful

4) The dh is always respectful (non-abusive)

5) The dh believes in gentle discipline

6) The dh does not have crippling addictions

B/c even "Dr" Laura says if there is adultery, abuse or addiction, all bets are off.

Yet we hear sub wives saying their dh's cheat, emotionally abuse wife and kids, are distant, the finances are in ruin, the dhs abuse alcohol, and the wives think they (or God) can change their men by submitting and praying??? In other words, they caused their men to be loser abusers and if the wives change by submitting, the men will too? In the case of my Trucker and his Wife, this was not the outcome. He just kept getting worse and the children suffered and they went into massive debt and the wife felt like less than zero.

Why do other women think when things are really bad, "submitting" to a frog will turn him into a prince?
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