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#121 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 09:00 PM
 
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WRT to the submission theology, I think the Pearls have taken it to its natural logical conclusion, where the wife must submit even if the husband sexually molests the children. After all, the scripture cited does not at all allow for *any* deviation under any set of circumstances-- at least as it is typically inflexibly interpreted. Does the Bible say "submit unless your husband is screwing a 14 year old boy?" Nope. It sure don't.

The follies of blindly following any religion, I suppose.

ETA: Sophmama's question is a good one, and not one I ever see answered, either. I see a lot of, "Well, my husband would never" but the fact of the matter is that it's not relevant whether he, individually, would or not. When you proclaim this family structure to be the only legitimate, spiritually valid, Godly version, you need to be able to answer for the "what-ifs" because they are real; ask a dozen mamas here and you'll hear some terribly tragic tales of abuse at the hands of men who had too much power and too little accountability.
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#122 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 09:09 PM
 
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I always wanted to know whether a wife is supposed to submit if her husband marches her down to the abortion clinic and demands she get one, too, but that may be outside the acceptable limits of abortion discussion here.

Lemme know and I'll edit.
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#123 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 09:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
I always wanted to know whether a wife is supposed to submit if her husband marches her down to the abortion clinic and demands she get one, too, but that may be outside the acceptable limits of abortion discussion here.

Lemme know and I'll edit.
eightyferrettoes.....I first need to state that I have been deeply touched by the lost of your daughter and think of you both often. That makes this question difficult for me to answer. Just know that I do not judge your situation and how heart wrenching it was to make

If a dh is asking for something that is against the Bible, no....you do not have to submit to him.

(Ex: He requests you kill the next door neighbor. That is against what the Bible says....you DO NOT have to do it.

He asks you to sleep with another man because it turns him on.....you do not have to do so.

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#124 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 09:22 PM
 
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EIGHTY!!!! Oh, how I've missed you!

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#125 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 09:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AngelBee
eightyferrettoes.....I first need to state that I have been deeply touched by the lost of your daughter and think of you both often. That makes this question difficult for me to answer. Just know that I do not judge your situation and how heart wrenching it was to make

If a dh is asking for something that is against the Bible, no....you do not have to submit to him.

(Ex: He requests you kill the next door neighbor. That is against what the Bible says....you DO NOT have to do it.

He asks you to sleep with another man because it turns him on.....you do not have to do so.
Thanks for reserving judgment on a situation you've never experienced; you'd be completely astonished by how many conservative types lack the restraint to do that.

On to the submission subject: if you are actually going with the interpretation that says "Submit to your husband in ALL things" I really fail to see where you get an out for things that you consider "against the Bible." Especially with abortion, which AFAIK is neither forbidden nor explicitly permitted by any scripture. Church dogma, sure, but not the Bible itself.

So really, you think the verse says, "Submit unless you think it is religiously unacceptable?" Just to be completely clear here.
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#126 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 09:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by sophmama
I'm also curious if Beccaboomom, if there are any other verses you feel have less obvious interpretations, spanking, etc.? Do you wear a head covering? Shun braiding your hair? Don't wear any jewelry? Do you follow those things as well? Are there any points you feel are cultural statements in the NT written to the people in their own time's context and not meant to be communicated to the broader world? I mean obviously at the beginning of each book you have a greeting written to a specific person or group of people in a specific place so how do you divide up percentage-wise, what is specific to those people and what is to be applied to everyone, everywhere?
For myself.....I am working through all of this little by little with my dh and my children.

Also through alot of prayer.

I have really started to reexamine things in my life and why I should or should not do them.

So yes....there are other rules that I do follow.....or try to. There are some that I have not yet put into effect.

It is a process..............just like NFL/GD/AP.....it does not all come together overnight.

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#127 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 09:26 PM
 
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EIGHTY!!!! Oh, how I've missed you!

*mwah*
Missed you, too!!! Come visit! OT: Duuuuuude, it is so freakin beautiful right now. You know you want to!
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#128 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 09:31 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
Thanks for reserving judgment on a situation you've never experienced; you'd be completely astonished by how many conservative types lack the restraint to do that.

On to the submission subject: if you are actually going with the interpretation that says "Submit to your husband in ALL things" I really fail to see where you get an out for things that you consider "against the Bible." Especially with abortion, which AFAIK is neither forbidden nor explicitly permitted by any scripture. Church dogma, sure, but not the Bible itself.

So really, you think the verse says, "Submit unless you think it is religiously unacceptable?" Just to be completely clear here.
Many consider abortion to be taking a life which is covered in the 10 commandments (Not debating.....just answering the question as it was stated.....I do not want to get this thread pulled.....so if I am crossing the line...please delete this post mods )

I can not imagine that Christ meant submit in everything including sin since the entire Bible speaks of avoiding sin.

I will have to get out my Bible and read over it again.

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#129 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 09:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AngelBee
I can not imagine that Christ meant submit in everything including sin since the entire Bible speaks of avoiding sin.
)
Maybe I'm high on caffiene, but wasn't it Paul who came up with the "submission in all things" verse? Not Christ at all?
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#130 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 09:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
Missed you, too!!! Come visit! OT: Duuuuuude, it is so freakin beautiful right now. You know you want to!
Y'know, I was driving around today and thinking about how nice it was to not have any snow on the ground in freaking January (which is really unusual for here). I'll bet it's COLD up there right now. I went out without even a jacket on today.

Ok, I'll stop derailing your thread, I actually do have questions to post, be back with them soon.
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#131 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 09:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
Maybe I'm high on caffiene, but wasn't it Paul who came up with the "submission in all things" verse? Not Christ at all?
Well God...

"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for taining in righteousness, so that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped, for every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16-17

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#132 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 09:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
Maybe I'm high on caffiene, but wasn't it Paul who came up with the "submission in all things" verse? Not Christ at all?
That would make two of us high on caffiene

I am drinking some crazy mocha white chocolate coffee drink

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#133 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 09:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by oldermamato5
As the Holy Spirit dwells within me,the Bible *is* the infallible word of God,I don't have to pick it apart,I simply do my best to live by it.
So....the "rod" scriptures?
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#134 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 09:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
Maybe I'm high on caffiene, but wasn't it Paul who came up with the "submission in all things" verse? Not Christ at all?
Yes, it was Paul, but the actual message was submit to each other. It was meant to be mutual. I just started a new thread about it because I don't want to derail this one.
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#135 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 09:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sunnmama
So....the "rod" scriptures?
Biblically a staff was used to guide sheep - the shepherd would put the staff between the sheep and the danger threatening it - he sometimes used to use the staff against the threat. But never, ever did he whip the sheep with the staff, or beat it, or punish with it.
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#136 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 09:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by caloli
Biblically a staff was used to guide sheep - the shepherd would put the staff between the sheep and the danger threatening it - he sometimes used to use the staff against the threat. But never, ever did he whip the sheep with the staff, or beat it, or punish with it.

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#137 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 09:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by beccaboomom
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.
Eph 5:24 As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands.
I addressed this in this thread:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=393119
You have to interpret the Bible carefully, making sure to respect the original language. I'll copy the relevant bit over for you ...
Quote:
In his letter to the Ephesians (5) Paul did not use any form of the word submit (hupotasso) in verse 22, nor in v. 24 for wives specifically. In each of these two verses the verb form is clearly implied. But its absence in both places is significant. It forces us to link the submission of the wife in verse 22 to the concept of mutual submission in verse 21 ("Honour Christ by submitting to each other"). Another mutual submission text is 1 Cor 7:3-5, which reads in part, “Let the husband fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.”
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#138 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 09:58 PM
 
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Yes, thank you Caloli
But, obviously, many Christians believe the rod scriptures are God's instructions to hit children. Hopefully no one here, of course--but many, many Christians.

So, the point is, it is not "picking apart" the work of Bible to have differing interpretations.
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#139 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 10:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by caloli
Yes, it was Paul, but the actual message was submit to each other. It was meant to be mutual. I just started a new thread about it because I don't want to derail this one.
The problem is that in current society it goes more like this:

I will do A,B, and C IF you do X,Y, and Z. If you do not do X, Y, and Z....kiss my behind!

To me, that is not how it works. My responsibilities are not relinquished because someone else is not pulling there weight. Likewise when I am not pulling mine, others still must uphold their end of the deal.

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#140 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 10:01 PM
 
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The thing is.....Majority of submissive wives are married to GREAT, honest, loving men.


I know a number of submissive wives. Two that come 2 mind seem like they are great marriages but over a course of a couple of years of knowing them I have found them men to be arrogent fill in the blanks. They do thing for their own good, not the good of the family or wife. One calls his wife a servant, and doesnt respect her at all and her health is failing because of him. On the outside they look like the perfect family. The kids have to deal with a lot of garbage to try and get on with their lives. The wife is the sweetest woman.

The other family the wife does every thing her dh wantsbut he only cares about one thing, himself. He wont even work a fulltime job to support his family. Wife and kids suffer.

None of the men that I know that have submissive wives are nice guys, they all have attitudes of superiority. Control freaks, puffed up air bags.
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#141 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 10:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by momto l&a
I know a number of submissive wives. Two that come 2 mind seem like they are great marriages but over a course of a couple of years of knowing them I have found them men to be arrogent fill in the blanks. They do thing for their own good, not the good of the family or wife. One calls his wife a servant, and doesnt respect her at all and her health is failing because of him. On the outside they look like the perfect family. The kids have to deal with a lot of garbage to try and get on with their lives. The wife is the sweetest woman.

The other family the wife does every thing her dh wantsbut he only cares about one thing, himself. He wont even work a fulltime job to support his family. Wife and kids suffer.

None of the men that I know that have submissive wives are nice guys, they all have attitudes of superiority. Control freaks, puffed up air bags.
You should meet my hubby

Honestly.....there is a difference in being a doormat and being submissive to your dh's position as head of the house.

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#142 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 10:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by oldermamato5
It is simply not possible to understand if you do not live by the Spirit.
That's not true. Many, many people who live spirit filled lives reject the wifely submission idea. But I could argue the exact opposite - any Christian woman who lives by the spirit would never live as a submissive life. Or any woman who is submissive isn't living by the Spirit. However, they would be offensive statements, just like yours is. I don't think it's your place to imply that understanding is only granted to those submissive wives living by the Spirit!
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#143 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 10:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sunnmama
Yes, thank you Caloli
But, obviously, many Christians believe the rod scriptures are God's instructions to hit children. Hopefully no one here, of course--but many, many Christians.

So, the point is, it is not "picking apart" the work of Bible to have differing interpretations.
Oh! Gotcha - sorry, we were on the same page
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#144 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 10:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AngelBee
The problem is that in current society it goes more like this:

I will do A,B, and C IF you do X,Y, and Z. If you do not do X, Y, and Z....kiss my behind!

To me, that is not how it works. My responsibilities are not relinquished because someone else is not pulling there weight. Likewise when I am not pulling mine, others still must uphold their end of the deal.
Yes, but current society is hardly living Biblically
It's not how it works to me either - what you described isn't mutual submission, it's a trade-off which is designed to suit #1 without edification or growth. Mutual submission is designed so that we're respecting our spouse. Saying "I will do A,B,C if you do X,Y,Z" is demanding work, not encouraging a healthy relationship.
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#145 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 10:21 PM
 
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How can you be filled with the Holy Spirit,love the Word,and reject it at the same time? As a christian? I truly don't get it. I don't personally know one christian woman who is offended by Godly submission to their husbands. I am not talking about unhealthy relationships,I'm talking of Godly,loving relationships.
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#146 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 10:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by beccaboomom
Eph 5:24 As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands.


This verse says subject in everything. It does not say "subject in everything that does not harm me or my children" or "subject in everything except what violates my religious principles."

Beccaboomom -- does that mean that you're subject to your husband in everything (as you assert the Bible clearly dictates)? Are you subject to your husband in his decisions of whether your children live or die? Are you subject to him in his decision to convert to Islam or running the family into the ground financially so you all ended up homeless? Subject to him in alcoholism or severe beatings or his decision that a barely-pubescent daughter should be married to a 40-year-old family friend?

Angelbee - In light of this scripture, how do you rationalize the boundaries that you place on your submission? When you say that you don't have to follow your husband in things that go against scripture, aren't you essentially going directly against scripture? How do you reconcile the two? No saying that your husband wouldn't do that -- the question is if he did do that, what would you do? The verse clearly says, subject in everything to their husbands. And the Bible is the word of God, yes, and his directive, yes? So how does it work in that situation?
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#147 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 10:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by littleaugustbaby
[/b]

Angelbee - In light of this scripture, how do you rationalize the boundaries that you place on your submission? When you say that you don't have to follow your husband in things that go against scripture, aren't you essentially going directly against scripture? How do you reconcile the two? No saying that your husband wouldn't do that -- the question is if he did do that, what would you do? The verse clearly says, subject in everything to their husbands. And the Bible is the word of God, yes, and his directive, yes? So how does it work in that situation?
I married a Christian man. He has NEVER asked me to do anything that goes against scripture.

I suppose the husband would be accountable to God if he did make uch a request.

I can not really answer this question as it does not apply.

Again.....this brings me back to the selection of a spouse. You must choose wisely to begin with.

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#148 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 10:52 PM
 
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I want to, once again ask a question that has repeatedly come up in many different forms. (Oldermamato5, feel free to jump in on this one),

How do you decide which aspects of the bible to take literally. Why take the wifely submission aspect and not others?
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#149 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 10:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AngelBee
I married a Christian man. He has NEVER asked me to do anything that goes against scripture.

I suppose the husband would be accountable to God if he did make uch a request.

I can not really answer this question as it does not apply.

Again.....this brings me back to the selection of a spouse. You must choose wisely to begin with.

You happened to luck out then, I guess. What about all those hundreds of thousands of women who's husbands became jerks years into the marriage?
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#150 of 547 Old 01-07-2006, 10:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by mamajama
I want to, once again ask a question that has repeatedly come up in many different forms. (Oldermamato5, feel free to jump in on this one),

How do you decide which aspects of the bible to take literally. Why take the wifely submission aspect and not others?
I already answered this in this thread

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