Questions regarding Wife Submission... - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 547 Old 01-06-2006, 02:09 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Post em here!

Feel free to ask anything that you may be wondering about. Please try to phrase your questions in a respectful way. Look forward to a great talk!

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#2 of 547 Old 01-06-2006, 02:46 AM
 
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We already had an 18 pg thread on this:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...8&page=1&pp=20

Remember?
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#3 of 547 Old 01-06-2006, 02:48 AM
 
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I remember. It got kinda one sided as all the submissive wives went back to their support only thread for some reason.

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#4 of 547 Old 01-06-2006, 02:52 AM
 
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I'll ask something. What about the husbands that out of nowhere insist on teaching/helping the baby fall asleep with out moms help? I've seen lots of threads over the last year or so on mdc about this. Husband takes/keeps baby insisting that he has it "under control" even though it's obvious that the baby only wants it's mommy. Most moms tell dad to bug off and give her her baby back. Some moms seem to cry and come tell us about how awefull it is to listen to. The dads for the most part are just desperatly trying to help (even though they're really not helping at all). What does a good submissive wife do then?

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#5 of 547 Old 01-06-2006, 02:57 AM
 
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I have one. When is it okay for a wife to not submit? Abuse? What constitues abuse? Rape? Or is marital rape okay?

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#6 of 547 Old 01-06-2006, 03:04 AM
 
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I've got one! What if your husband had too much to drink and insisted on driving you and the kids home? (Hypothetical you, of course) Do you get in the car, walk, take the keys from him?

TIA!
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#7 of 547 Old 01-06-2006, 03:09 AM
 
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I've got one! What if your husband had too much to drink and insisted on driving you and the kids home? (Hypothetical you, of course) Do you get in the car, walk, take the keys from him?

TIA!
Can I tell you what I did the one time that happened? I asked his drunken self to go inside and get a drink of water first (I had already taken his keys, he had no idea). Then me and the baby left. Once I was at home I called his mother and told her he needed her to go pick him up. He was still there when she showed up (had completely forgotten about the water and driving home). Needless to say it turned out to be a pretty awkward/embarrassing situation for him. But did it ever happen again? Nope.

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#8 of 547 Old 01-06-2006, 03:17 AM
 
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True story:

What about if the dh is a trucker and works for a company, but then decides to start his own company, even tho he and the little woman discuss it and it is decided they won't? He does it anyway? then a few months later, he has an accident on black ice and totals the truck and his "partner" quits and the family is now $40,000 in debt?

Wifey submits and finally gets her youngest in school and gets a little mom-hours job at a store to help make ends meet.

Then dh purposely knocks her up and she has to quit work b/c they can't afford daycare. She loses a tooth from poor nutrition and can't afford to get a fake one put in and now it's been 5 yrs with a gap on the side of her smile.

Did she do the right thing by submitting and letting him keep the trucks? Did she do the right thing by submitting and allowing him to have unproected sex with her as he insisted, when she knew she was fertile?
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#9 of 547 Old 01-06-2006, 03:18 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melaya
Can I tell you what I did the one time that happened? I asked his drunken self to go inside and get a drink of water first (I had already taken his keys, he had no idea). Then me and the baby left. Once I was at home I called his mother and told her he needed her to go pick him up. He was still there when she showed up (had completely forgotten about the water and driving home). Needless to say it turned out to be a pretty awkward/embarrassing situation for him. But did it ever happen again? Nope.
Hey. That was not submissive. That was self-protective!

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#10 of 547 Old 01-06-2006, 03:22 AM
 
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Do you feel that your DH is somehow smarter, stronger, wiser, worthier than yourself to make decisions for your family, than yourself?

Does this mean you have low self-esteem? Or does your DH have low self-esteem, not wanting anyone to question his thoughts or actions, not wanting to have to explain or convince his wife of any decision he wants to make? It really does confuse me, I don't understand why any part of a couple should have to defer to the other half as a routine.

In our marriage, we are equals, we both discuss any issue we want to discuss, we seek out eachother's opinions and we try to come up with decisions that are best for every member of our family, together. Occasionally we don't agree on something (infrequently) but we still use logical tools to figure out how we are going to handle it, neither of us is an authority over the other. Do you believe that God actually thinks there is something wrong with that?
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#11 of 547 Old 01-06-2006, 03:27 AM
 
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What is appealing about submitting? Is it the desire to not have to really make decisions, knowing it will be left up to someone else (I know we all wish that could be the case every now and then! )? What exactly turned you on to it? Where is the satisfaction in it?

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#12 of 547 Old 01-06-2006, 03:30 AM
 
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Hey. That was not submissive. That was self-protective!
I figured that this was something that she should have taught him when he was younger. So here was her second chance. She was very thankful for it and I would love it if my future dil ever had the gusto to do the same thing to my boy (if I ever have a boy that is).

By the way AngelBee, my question was sincere. I wasn't being sarcastic, I'm honestly curious about what a mother is "supposed to do" in that situation. Seems like it would be a tough one.

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#13 of 547 Old 01-06-2006, 03:48 AM
 
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What consitutes a man? Having a penis between his legs? If so, is this all it takes to be assumed the dominant head of the house? What happens in a transexual marriage?

Is giving infallible power to another human being not usurping the power of the almighty?

Does submitting open the door to being abused? Taken advantage of?

Does subimitting feel like it would be easier than taking responsiblility for one's own wellbeing?

Does teaching your daughter to submit to a man not undermine her own sense of self worth? If not, how is that possible? You are teaching her that she is intrinsically lesser than half the population of the world.

Does believing in 'wifely submission' also mean turning over reproductive decisions to the man as well?

Is wifely submission a sexual thrill?

Does it not seem painfully obvious that *of course* there is going to be less conflict in a partnership when one person is going to submit every time there's a disagreement?

Don't you think there are actually men out there who want to know what their wives or girlfriends really think and feel about things? Don't you think there are men out there who would be driven around the bend being married to June Cleaver for the rest of their lives?

Are submitting wives scared of their husbands?
Are they scared of conflict?
Are they scared of negativity in general? Afraid to embrace it as a natural and essential part of life?
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#14 of 547 Old 01-06-2006, 04:54 AM
 
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If your spouse does want to know your opinion and wants you to be an essential desicion maker and you "submit" by doing so does that in fact negate the "submitting"?

Do you really teach your daughters to submit? Wouldn't that be considered a life choice only to be made my a mature adult who knew what it all involved?

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#15 of 547 Old 01-06-2006, 10:52 AM
 
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Is it really a BIBLICAL marriage if 'submissive' wives in less than stellar marriages cover up their faithless husband's affairs, bullying, and other utter lacks of true husbandly and fathery responsibility? Do these wives really think God wants them to continue to choose to be 'led' by a purposefully God-less man? Doesn't being led by a man who commits sin willfully, happily, and without remorse then lead the family down the WRONG path? Do these wives really think God smiles on those who then force children to continue to endure living with a man who is far from Christ-like and chooses cheating, drinking, and other sins over family love and responsibility?

When can a submissive wife call abuse for what it is (as in examples given above, when she is in fact being abused) and when will other submissive wives finally point out to her that she is not a submissive wife, she is an ABUSED wife? Will they offer her help and protection, stay silent, or encourage her to submit harder to 'save' HIM and not her (and her children)?

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#16 of 547 Old 01-06-2006, 12:08 PM
 
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: can't wait to see the answers to all of these .

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#17 of 547 Old 01-06-2006, 12:27 PM
 
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#18 of 547 Old 01-06-2006, 12:41 PM
 
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I think there is alot of confusion between being submissive, and letting yourself be bullyed around, or disrespected.

We need to respect our husbands. They are the "head covering" so to speak. They are supposed to be the protectors of the family. God has chosen to equip men with the resposibilities of being the head of the family. Yes, I do believe we need to submit-but not if it means we are forced to sin. God also gave us all a free will.
Say, your husband wants to watch pornos, and they make your gut wrench and turn-as you would rather enjoy the quiet intamacy a marriage can bring between just 2 people(this is all hypothetical) Do you consent? NO Not if consenting means you are going against your God given convictions. Does thsi mean if your dh decides to make descisions after you have already talked about it, without your consent you should throw a hissy fit and refuse to submit any further?NO.
Now, pelase, I have to be careful here- I am not in any way talking about situations that would imply danger or neglect or whathaveyou for your family. I am talking about letting your man learn to lead. I find that most times, I will see something-a certain aspect or angle on something before dh does. So I simply pray now and let God lead him. Just about every time he comes to his own revelation and the thing is resolved. We have been married 7 years, so it may not always happen this way in a new marriage!!!!

Also, there is something our children learn about authority from watching us. If we never submit to our dh's leading, our children will grow up with an unhealthy view of leadership.On the other hand, if they see us being abused wrongfully by authority they will resent it.
I think, in someone whois not a Christian, we really can't expect Christian actions and a right use of authority %100 of the time in our marriage. Jesus is the standard for a godly marriage, without Him, we will always come up short.

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#19 of 547 Old 01-06-2006, 12:51 PM
 
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When I first married at the age of 19, I vowed that I would obey my husband, as he was to receive direction directly from God and I was to be directed only by my earthly husband. At the time, I was fine with that (I know now it was because I felt it absolved me of all responsibility to make the right choices). Well, within a year of our marriage my (now ex-) husband proceeded to violate many of the religious tenets we both vowed to uphold. What was I to do? Obey him or follow my conscience? I was forced to act when he attempted to drive drunk with me and my 2 year old in the car. (Gee, I guess God screwed up there, instructing him to drive drunk and all. )

Like Melaya posted earlier, I managed to subtly get the keys from him and I jumped in the car while he was distracted and drove my baby far away from him. We spent the night in a hotel; no spare clothes, no toiletries, and I had to empty our joint bank account to pay for the room.

How would a submissive wife have handled it (bearing in mind that I *was* a submissive wife up until that moment)?
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#20 of 547 Old 01-06-2006, 01:01 PM
 
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ETA: I ask because if submission is a relationship style that is mutually agreed upon and that is mutually beneficial, leaving both husband and wife happily married and the children in a happy home, then it obviously works for their family. It is also a CHOICE made by BOTH parties to enter into that kind of relationship, because to truly submit, one must choose to do so, not be forced to by their partner's behaviors. If the leader in the marriage is active, supportive, loving, and Christ-like, I absolutely support that relationship style.


My questions come from reading about relationships in which 'submission' is being used by only one partner of a marriage, to 'fix' the marriage. The so-called 'head' of the households described is no Christ-like leader. It's the way in which some describe their submission and their reasons for submitting, that blurs the lines of the true definition of SUBMIT: To yield or surrender (oneself) to the will or authority of another. The wife of a cheating, drinking, bullying, etc. man has not really YIELDED her will. Her circumstances, her spouse's poor behavior, etc., took her will from her. She may call her relationship with that sinful spouse 'Biblical Submission', but how, exactly, is a marriage Biblical when the 'head' of the marriage is not following God's Laws? How is the wife Biblically Submissive to God when she continues to ignore, cover up, and raise children in her spouse's sins?

I'm honestly trying to understand, because as I said, I support truly Biblical submission in which the husband honors, loves, and respects his wife as the Bible dictates. It doesn't all fall on the wife to 'submit harder' to fix the marriage. Husbands have laws to follow as well, both as husbands and as men of God.

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#21 of 547 Old 01-06-2006, 01:39 PM
 
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You know, this whole concept reminds me of The Story of O and submissive/dominant groups on the internet. It's my understanding from, um, extensive reading that in entering into a sub/dom relationship based solely on sex, the submissive partner is impressed by and develops respect for the authority of the dominant partner. Once trust is established, the submissive partner then submits his/her will to the dominant partner, usually with clearly defined boundaries. I think that such sub/dom relationships based on sex are actually healthier (as long as the partners aren't acting out abuse issues, etc.) than these so-called Biblically-based submissions where roles are based solely on the partners' genders. I mean, from many of the examples I've read of husbands' behavior, they've done little to earn the respect or trust of their wives. Shouldn't that respect and trust be the prerequisite to submission, not the fact that one happens to be a man?

And another thought, in a marriage, each partner has certain strengths and certain weaknesses. Do submissive wives submit to their husbands on all matters? For example, I know NOTHING about cars. So my dh handles everything to do with our cars. I don't want him to consult with me. I just want it done. I know more about health care. I take care of everything related to that without consulting dh. He trusts I know what I'm doing and that's that. I know so many women who are so much smarter than their husbands on so many matters, I don't know why it makes sense to have husbands be the ultimate decision makers just because they're men.
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#22 of 547 Old 01-06-2006, 01:49 PM
 
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i guess i don't understand why someone would submit to someone who is lesser than they are. I mean, i know-irl and url-alot of loser husbands-can't hold jobs, chronic cheaters, show zero respect for their wives and their marriage and their family, etc... What kind of God would want their devout followers to submit to that. Why would God want his followers to be so miserable?
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#23 of 547 Old 01-06-2006, 02:05 PM
 
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This reminds me of the power structure in several of America's past presidencies -- the "power behind the throne" idea.

To submit to another upon marriage gives that person the obvious power.

But who decides to agree to that marriage in the first place? Who chooses to submit? And upon doing so, who makes the judgment that the man in question is actually a "man of God" and therefore qualified to be the leader of the household? (I'm assuming in this situation the couple would take the tradition route, with the man proposing to the woman and the woman saying yes or no.)

I'm not very familiar with the idea of submission, as it wasn't a tenet of the church in which I was raised, so forgive me if I wander off the path. I'm thinking out loud, as it were, trying to puzzle this out.

Is it safe to assume that the father of the bride is the household leader, and her own, prior to her marriage? So does he make the decision on her acceptance of a marriage proposal? Does he evaluate the man and decide if he's a "man of God"? What happens when a woman is converting to the concept of submission and her father is not available or will not play this role? Is she guided by God directly until she is married (as a PP described it as the man being the only one to have direct guidance from God and her only having guidance through her husband)?

It just seems like a lot of the situations I see explained by submissive wives involve them "leading" (or praying for) their husband to come to a conclusion they've already reached, or wielding their power in a more subtle way to bring their husband around to a good decision for the family. I guess I'm just not clear on why the separate power structures are necessary (one direct, one subtle), and why they're based on gender. But as a PP mentioned, if it truly works for a family and makes everyone in it happy, to each her own.
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#24 of 547 Old 01-06-2006, 02:09 PM
 
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The scriptures regarding wife submission are of debatable interpretation among Christians. As are the scriptures regarding "the rod". Most here choose to interpret "the rod" scriptures in a child-friendly way. Why, then, not choose to interpret the "submissive" scriptures in a woman-friendly way? Why interpret them in a way that, as best, promote sexism and, at worst, is used to rationalize and tolerate abuse?
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#25 of 547 Old 01-06-2006, 02:20 PM
 
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Good points made above.

In the scenario I presented above, true story of a trucker and his wife, they are both Christian, Baptists. The dh had a habit of going to church at least once a week, reading the bible with a study guide every morning, etc.

So, this kind of marriage was agreed upon by both. Yes, they are both sinners by their denom's definition, but the dw tried to trust her dh to make decisions for the family that were safe and beneficial, as was her religious conviction. Unfortunately, dh had been in a motorcycle accident when he was 14 and is ever so slightly brain-damaged and is just not as intelligent as dw.

This was not a new marriage. This was a marriage of 20+ yrs duration. Lots of other issues involved, such as dh's love for "get rich quick" pyramid scheme business ventures, in which he would spend their non-exsistant savings on a basement full of "health supplements" which would largely go unsold.

Add to this, his denial of probably being gay enters into it (this denial being neccessary in a fundy mindset), instead making dw feel it was her fault for not being attractive enough that led to their terrible unsatisfactory love life. :

Now she has become fed up (after much damage to her self-esteem and terrible examples of male and female role models for their 4 sons, leading to inappropriate girlfriends and drug issues), and is seeking a divorce!
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#26 of 547 Old 01-06-2006, 10:13 PM
 
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Hey, AngelBee, where's our answers?

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#27 of 547 Old 01-06-2006, 10:27 PM
 
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#28 of 547 Old 01-06-2006, 10:29 PM
 
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Not even a dang smilie from her!
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#29 of 547 Old 01-06-2006, 10:33 PM
 
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Post and run
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#30 of 547 Old 01-06-2006, 10:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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DaryLLL.... I am here.

Today is dh's birthday and tomorrow is our 5th Anniversary.

I will be in and out this weekend......I will be back to answer though when I get a chance.

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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