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#121 of 259 Old 02-10-2006, 05:53 AM
 
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the Op thanked everyone a while back, so I think she got some anwers.
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#122 of 259 Old 02-10-2006, 02:25 PM
 
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She may be gone, but I think this discussion continues to be quite fascinating.

I've wrestled around with many of the thoughts here, especially those of Wausau74, and about knowable truth, relevant truth, what is real, what is not?...etc.

I've come to the conclusion that as great as these deep and edifying philosophical type discussions are, for me the answer is simple faith.

Nankay said:

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I. too, am still waiting for this "proof" of God's existence.
Well I waited too.....for awhile, then went out to search for it myself (what my parents taught me wasn't good enough), as I didn't believe God would push him self upon me......in other words I needed a bit a faith to pursue.

I'm not intellectual, as rational nor philosophical as many of you, and am actually quite "mentally" incompetent in discussing things of this deep spiritual matter. But because of some personal "trauma's" in my life I've given up all religious study and just given myself over to this man Jesus who claimed to be the Truth, the Way and the Life. It took an act though of denying much of my previous ways of thinking.


So I have demoted myself (with God's help) to simplicity and simple trust.....Like the faith of a Child who's heart and mind is always open to the things of God....Creation, Love, forgiveness, hope, life....it's all true in my mind and I know longer am waiting for this "proof" of God.

To each his own I guess, and I do have high respect for the theoretical and truth-seeking dialogue and the mama's that give it and have studied in dept on these matters. DaryLLL, Wausau74, Galatea, sunnmama, Motherof3, Chasing Peace, and others........keep going.......It was through discussions like this, that I did find my peace at last.
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#123 of 259 Old 02-10-2006, 03:21 PM
 
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Anuska,

I am at perfect peace with my decision to not believe in a god. I am a born skeptic, if PROOF presents itself,well, HOORAY! I'm willing to change my mind. Do not assume I am waiting for proof as I do not believe such a thing exists. I guess my previous post was more snarky than serious.
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#124 of 259 Old 02-10-2006, 04:29 PM
 
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this is such an interesting thread.

I personally am searching as well. Not necessarily for God but for some proof, or just hope that when my life here is over, I don't just cease to exist. I feel very fullfilled just by the act of living, and loving my family. The thought of just being gone one day is really hard for me to think about, and I think abt it a lot.

, mama to DS(7/)22/02) DS (8/14/04) , and an angel (3/10/10)nursing a broken heart...loving my boys.
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#125 of 259 Old 02-10-2006, 06:12 PM
 
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I am at perfect peace with my decision to not believe in a god. I am a born skeptic, if PROOF presents itself,well, HOORAY! I'm willing to change my mind. Do not assume I am waiting for proof as I do not believe such a thing exists. I guess my previous post was more snarky than serious.
Nankay,

Hey, I didn't pick up any snarkiness at all

I think alot of people are waiting for "proof" . I hope one day they find it..... I didn't. I decided to just use whatever faith I could muster up.


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or just hope that when my life here is over, I don't just cease to exist. I feel very fullfilled just by the act of living, and loving my family. The thought of just being gone one day is really hard for me to think about, and I think abt it a lot.
Dear mamapajama,

See, thats what got me. I was fulfilled to with my life, family, etc..., but I kept thinking about my children and that I just had to live forever with them. I had fears of death for me and for my kids. My biggest fear was if one of them would die, would they be lost to me forever? I couldn't bear the thought.

....so I went searching for that "eternal" life thing... I so wanted it to be true....cause I was thinking about it so much. Of course those "what if's" aren't healthy thinking, but I'm sure every mom has them in spite.

I guess everyone has their personal reasons as to why they wish to find God, eternal life, hope, etc. I have a friend who just says she doesn't want to live beyond this life and doesn't want eternal life. I think thats fine for her, but for me, gosh, the thought was so depressing, especially in regards to my husband and children.

I can't relate to what you said.
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#126 of 259 Old 02-13-2006, 01:08 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Anuska

I've wrestled around with many of the thoughts here, especially those of Wausau74, and about knowable truth, relevant truth, what is real, what is not?...etc.

I've come to the conclusion that as great as these deep and edifying philosophical type discussions are, for me the answer is simple faith.

... I needed a bit a faith to pursue.

I'm not intellectual, as rational nor philosophical as many of you, and am actually quite "mentally" incompetent in discussing things of this deep spiritual matter. But because of some personal "trauma's" in my life I've given up all religious study and just given myself over to this man Jesus who claimed to be the Truth, the Way and the Life. It took an act though of denying much of my previous ways of thinking.


So I have demoted myself (with God's help) to simplicity and simple trust.....Like the faith of a Child who's heart and mind is always open to the things of God....Creation, Love, forgiveness, hope, life....it's all true in my mind and I know longer am waiting for this "proof" of God.

To each his own I guess, and I do have high respect for the theoretical and truth-seeking dialogue and the mama's that give it and have studied in dept on these matters. DaryLLL, Wausau74, Galatea, sunnmama, Motherof3, Chasing Peace, and others........keep going.......It was through discussions like this, that I did find my peace at last.

So you have given up on intellect tho you respect it? You think you are not smart enough to figure anything out rationally? is that what you are saying, Anuska? Can you clarify?

Just trusting in some sort of Jesus figure you carry in your heart? And intellectual discussions you have seen here since November have inspired you to give up on thinking? I am confused.
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#127 of 259 Old 02-13-2006, 06:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MyLittleWonders
I'm curious what you would define as absolute truth? If this absolute truth can exist apart from the concept of God or a god, then why don't more people know it (or seem to express it?)?

Also, it seems by your second point - "Yes, I have considered that the truth could be that there is no God, but it is true that there is a god. One issue at a time, though." - that you consider this absolute truth to include god/God ... but that seems to be something that can only be "proven" as true for yourself. There are far too many atheists and agnostics out there to be able to have a blanket statement that says "but it is true that there is a god." How did you come to this conclusion?

*I hope my questions come across as sincere - I know personally that religion and beliefs can be very hard to discuss without hurting feelings - but I wanted to let you know that I'm not trying to come across as anything but curious.

Absolute truth- what is true for everyone everywhere for all of time. so X is true for you for me for bab for sue for anyone in the USA, Canada, China at any time whether it was 1602 or 2009.

Questions are fine. I don't take it as an offense.

The statement I keep making is one issue at a time. Right now it is truth. I know there are several saying what about the "proof." The problem is, without absolute truth, any proof is up for grabs. One could say, well I don't accept that or believe that. Without truth nothing else matters. If truth does not exist, then this discussion doesn't really matter. If anyone is going to believe anything doesn't the person have some sense that what they believe is the truth or at least what they hope to be the truth? What I am saying is that idea is not truth at all. Truth is not based on hopes or beliefs. Truth is true for eveyone everywhere at all times regardless of what one want to believe.
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#128 of 259 Old 02-13-2006, 06:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mara
All matters of truth aside, I am still stuck on trying to figure out the proof that there was a beginning to the universe. Yes, the universe as we see it today appears to have a beginning, but who says that was the beginning of everything? I have always assumed, and thought it was obvious, that there was a "before" that. That compacted speck of matter from which it is speculated the big bang came, that was something, and that was existing, right?
Are you saying that the universe is eternal?
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#129 of 259 Old 02-13-2006, 06:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by onlyboys
And, Wausau, how does your interpretation of the Mosaic authorship apply to the two (very) different accounts of the creation story?
Carry on, all.

I am not sure what 2 stories you are referring to. Did you mean the 2 flood stories?
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#130 of 259 Old 02-13-2006, 06:25 PM
 
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(I am sorry I keep having to do a new post. I tried doing the quote thing that wednesday discribed but I just can't get that to work.)

Anuska- Thank you for the post. I would encourage you to look more into the intellectual side of Christianity-why it is a reasonable faith. God does want us to have faith, not blind faith. In Mark 30:12 Jesus tell us "And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength." We are to use our minds. I am not implying in anyway that you are not, I am just saying that He tells us to be rational and there are rational answers out there.
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#131 of 259 Old 02-13-2006, 06:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Wausau74
I am not sure what 2 stories you are referring to. Did you mean the 2 flood stories?
No, I mean the two creation accounts. I believe that they are in the first and second chapters of Genesis.
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#132 of 259 Old 02-13-2006, 07:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Wausau74

The statement I keep making is one issue at a time. Right now it is truth. I know there are several saying what about the "proof." The problem is, without absolute truth, any proof is up for grabs. One could say, well I don't accept that or believe that. Without truth nothing else matters. If truth does not exist, then this discussion doesn't really matter. If anyone is going to believe anything doesn't the person have some sense that what they believe is the truth or at least what they hope to be the truth? What I am saying is that idea is not truth at all. Truth is not based on hopes or beliefs. Truth is true for eveyone everywhere at all times regardless of what one want to believe.
All right. Say that Truth with a capital T is unknowable in its entirety b/c of our limited intellects as humans. Does it then follow you can't prove God exists?

Do YOU think knowledge of full Truth is possible, as a human? I would call this gnosis. I think some people get near to this through an ascetic life, meditiation, yoga, fasting, study, etc etc. But I also think, once you have it, or a close facsimile, it can't be put into words. I agree with the Gnostics, God is by definition, ineffable.

And even that definition is incorrect.
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#133 of 259 Old 02-14-2006, 03:07 AM
 
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http://www.thegodmovie.com/

Berlin had a movie festival and this movie won high acclaims.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
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#134 of 259 Old 02-14-2006, 06:03 AM
 
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I thought it was a very interesting movie. Can't wait for this one to come out too:
http://www.thebeastmovie.com/about/index.html
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#135 of 259 Old 02-14-2006, 06:25 AM
 
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Just because you can't always "feel" God, that doesn't mean he isn't there. Once you decide to walk with Him, he never leaves you. I pray everyday and I KNOW He is real. When I am broke and behind on bills, God provides the money that I need. I know there are many different religions and then there are some people that dont' believe in anything, I just couldn't be one of those people because the Lord has shown me he is real and I could never turn my back on that. I KNOW that there is a place for my among the righteous in Heaven.
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#136 of 259 Old 02-14-2006, 06:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ChasingPeace
I'm sorry that your spiritual struggle seems to be causing you so much pain.

I've gone through similar struggles where I've had my faith in the image of God I believed in challenged, but I think that these challenges have actually been very beneficial to my spirituality. Maybe you've outgrown the God you believed in as a child, and now you have the opportunity to discover what God means to you now. I would suggest reading about other religions' concepts of God (www.beliefnet.com is a great resource). I also found it very helpful to ask posters here from different religions their views on topics that were challenging me. I've come to the conclusion, as the saying goes, that God is too great to be confined to one religion. The world religions offer many different ways of making the Divine accessible. You may find one or a collection of many that resonate with you. Good luck on your journey!
I agree. Our stuggles make us stronger and the Lord NEVER gives us more than we can handle and only HE knows what our limits are.
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#137 of 259 Old 02-14-2006, 06:34 AM
 
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Originally Posted by DaryLLL
Down_under, I have not seen you post before, but it sounds like you are going through some very hard times!

In your sig it mentions depression, which I hope you are receiving treatment for. Sometimes when we are depressed, it seems we feel unconnected to everything, and that includes the Divine. It also seems like daily responsibilities are too much, even getting out of bed and showering is too much, much less taking care of 2 toddlers.


I am struggling with Depression aswell. I was on meds but I just decided that if I trusted the Lord the way I say I do then I do not need them. He will heal me. So I stopped taking them and I am not completely better but I can feel God working in my life.
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#138 of 259 Old 02-14-2006, 12:42 PM
 
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"I agree. Our stuggles make us stronger and the Lord NEVER gives us more than we can handle and only HE knows what our limits are."Yeah, I guess that's why people die of starvation :
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#139 of 259 Old 02-14-2006, 12:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DaryLLL
So you have given up on intellect tho you respect it? You think you are not smart enough to figure anything out rationally? is that what you are saying, Anuska? Can you clarify?

Just trusting in some sort of Jesus figure you carry in your heart? And intellectual discussions you have seen here since November have inspired you to give up on thinking? I am confused.
You seem to be juxtaposing "rationality" to Christianity. Aside from the fact that this juxtaposition is not as clear cut as you may think, I'd have to ask how you can keep from juxtaposing rationality to gnosticism, which is certainly as irrational, and on the same basis, as Christianity.
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#140 of 259 Old 02-14-2006, 01:11 PM
 
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Ok..I admit it, I can't see what the big deal is about ABSOLUTE TRUTH. of course there are Truths out there..the physical world is full of them:They are amazingly observable and provable.


The sun rises in the East and sets in the West.
Humans need oxygen to survive.
Sperm+egg=fetilized egg=baby (eventually)
The Dodo Bird is extinct.

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#141 of 259 Old 02-14-2006, 01:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Unagidon
You seem to be juxtaposing "rationality" to Christianity. Aside from the fact that this juxtaposition is not as clear cut as you may think, I'd have to ask how you can keep from juxtaposing rationality to gnosticism, which is certainly as irrational, and on the same basis, as Christianity.
I'm not sure where you are getting all this.

My questions were for Anuska.
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#142 of 259 Old 02-14-2006, 04:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Wausau74
If anyone is going to believe anything doesn't the person have some sense that what they believe is the truth or at least what they hope to be the truth? What I am saying is that idea is not truth at all. Truth is not based on hopes or beliefs. Truth is true for eveyone everywhere at all times regardless of what one want to believe.
But, based on both my Christian upbringing and my current atheist perspective, humans don't have all the answers. I was clearly taught that in church.....that there are questions that can not be answered. That we humans can not (always) comprehend God's methods.

If truth about God, heaven, etc is knowable, where does faith come in? Not checking the Bible, but I have a fuzzy memory of a scripture like "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of thing not seen" or something like that--which would suggest that hope and belief play an important part in Christianity. The idea that Christianity is actually based on knowable truth, rather than faith, is a new concept for me.
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#143 of 259 Old 02-14-2006, 04:51 PM
 
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"I agree. Our stuggles make us stronger and the Lord NEVER gives us more than we can handle and only HE knows what our limits are.
Quote:
"Yeah, I guess that's why people die of starvation Yeah, I guess that's why people die of starvation :
I was told by some New Age guru that it was their "karma." :

A guy was telling me that his aunt was in excrutiating pain-it felt like her body was on fire. She couldn't take it anymore and finally killed herself. I think it's safe to say it was more than she could handle.
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#144 of 259 Old 02-14-2006, 05:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sunnmama

If truth about God, heaven, etc is knowable, where does faith come in? Not checking the Bible, but I have a fuzzy memory of a scripture like "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of thing not seen" or something like that--which would suggest that hope and belief play an important part in Christianity.
You nailed it. Hebrews 11:1. I'm impressed.

Quote:
The idea that Christianity is actually based on knowable truth, rather than faith, is a new concept for me.
Me too. And what was provable scientifially in 300 CE is a whole world away from what we know today.

But ultimate Truth TM, about God or whatever else Wasau is hoping to prove? Beyond our capabilities to understand. Paul, quoting Plato, says we see through a glass darkly but one day will see face to face. Perhaps. No guarantees, in the bible or elsewhere.

Here is a website/forum to read every argument for and against God you could imagine:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/forumdisplay.php?f=59

Existence of God(s)
What does the word "God" mean? Does a god exist? What are the arguments for and against? What does the evidence say?

Examples of topics:

The Universe is uncaused, eternal and infinite....

What is the point of our life if there is a God?

Argument from Contingency

Humanity For Amusement?/Is 'God' still Learning?

Pascal's Wager started as The Resurrection is irrelevant

If God exists, Life is meaningless

Why is it so hard/complicated to prove God's existence?

god exists in all persons proof

Existance of God or life by chance?

etc
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#145 of 259 Old 02-14-2006, 06:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DaryLLL
I'm not sure where you are getting all this.

My questions were for Anuska.
People "test" things by looking at their own experiences. Most people have their own criteria of verification. People have faith in a God and suddenly find that God is tangible. When God becomes tangible in this way, the proof to them is empirical. It is also, as you have no doubt noticed in this thread, personal.

One can approach them and demand that they account for God using someone else's proofs. One can appeal to "science". But while I have seen you claim rationality and science for your arguments, the "gnosticism" that you proclaim comes from neither and it is fair to say that what you said to her applies to you as well.

That's all.
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#146 of 259 Old 02-14-2006, 06:29 PM
 
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People "test" things by looking at their own experiences. Most people have their own criteria of verification. People have faith in a God and suddenly find that God is tangible. When God becomes tangible in this way, the proof to them is empirical. It is also, as you have no doubt noticed in this thread, personal
Thanks Unagidon, you said that well. There is "head knowledge" and "Personal" knowledge.

Head knowledge didn't get me very far.... My personal knowledge (in truth) and experience has brought me to my knees in faith,. How does one really explain it
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#147 of 259 Old 02-14-2006, 09:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Unagidon
But while I have seen you claim rationality and science for your arguments, the "gnosticism" that you proclaim comes from neither and it is fair to say that what you said to her applies to you as well.
I do straddle the line between rationalism/skepticism and a sort of mysticism. I "proclaim" neither as Truth TM or as any kind of final answer. Nor do I count on either for my salvation or attempt to impose it on anyone.

I'm just a bumbling idiot apparently being forced to take a very painful, occasionally beautiful journey called Being a Human on a Small Unimportant Planet.

Thank you for your interest.
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#148 of 259 Old 02-14-2006, 09:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Anuska
Thanks Unagidon, you said that well. There is "head knowledge" and "Personal" knowledge.

Head knowledge didn't get me very far.... My personal knowledge (in truth) and experience has brought me to my knees in faith,. How does one really explain it
I guess you can't. I know you've tried in the past. If you have no more will to try, that's fine by me.

Carry on.
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#149 of 259 Old 02-14-2006, 11:18 PM
 
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You nailed it.
My mother would be so proud.
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#150 of 259 Old 02-14-2006, 11:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Nankay
I agree. Our stuggles make us stronger and the Lord NEVER gives us more than we can handle and only HE knows what our limits are.
So, if G-d made me alittle weaker, I would not be a widow? Think about how that sounds to the person who has lost something.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
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