Questions for Christians re: Judaism and how Christianity came to be (spin off) - Page 11 - Mothering Forums
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#301 of 305 Old 10-07-2006, 03:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DaryLLL View Post
Zec 11:15 Then the LORD said to me, "Take once more the implements of a worthless shepherd.
Zec 11:16 For lo, I am raising up in the land a shepherd who does not care for the perishing, or seek the wandering, or heal the maimed, or nourish the sound, but devours the flesh of the fat ones, tearing off even their hoofs.
Zec 11:17 Woe to my worthless shepherd, who deserts the flock! May the sword smite his arm and his right eye! Let his arm be wholly withered, his right eye utterly blinded!"

It seems to me, this was written by Zechariah about himself. He felt YHWH told him to be a metaphorical shepherd (ie: a prophet?) who was then "defeated," b/c he could not reconcile Judah with Israel. Then YHWH said he would raise up another "shepherd" "who does not care for the perishing, or seek the wandering, or heal the maimed, or nourish the sound, but devours the flesh of the fat ones, tearing off even their hoofs."

Surely you do not believe this refers to Jesus?
Wow you just proved me something!
Lord said:" take once more the implements of the worthless shepherd". and then describes who that worthless shepherd is: someone who dos not care for the perishing, or seek the wandering or heal the maimed or nourish the sound". Or another translation: "Take again for yourself the equipment of a foolish shepherd. For Behold I am going to raise up a shepherd in the leand who will not care for the perishing, seek the scattered, heal the broken or sustain the one standing, but will devous the flesss of the fat sheep and tear off their hoofs".

But then He goes on to say: Woe to the worthless shepherd Who leaves the flock!
You just proved to me that leadership rejects the Good shepherd and accepts: the foolish or worthless who doesn't care for the perishing or heals the maimed and who will only bring harm to his flock. (Simon bar Cochba) comes to mind. Thank you for proving me my own point.
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#302 of 305 Old 10-07-2006, 03:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DaryLLL View Post
"30.He would be sold for 30 pieces of silver - Zechariah 11:1-17"

The prophet/shepherd in this verse was not sold for silver pieces, those were his wages (given to him, not to a betrayer as in the NT) which he rejected and put in the treasury.
Verses 12-14 describe the value placed upn the work of the good shepherd, In verse 12, the good shepherd asks the leadership for his wages. He is paid thirty pieces of silver which is like the value for a dead slave at that time. Therefore the work of good shepherd is therefore judged to be equivalent to a dead slave. An insult. But who is really insulted? Not the prophet.
The Lord says: "throw it to the potter, that magnificent price (sarcasm) at which I valued by them". It is the Lord who is Good shepherd, It is the Lord whose work is so despised as to be valued in such low price.
At least to me, it seems as if Zecharia is merely an actor playing the prophetic role.
Then the prophet is told to take the the 30 pieces of silver and throw them away by throwing them into the potter's are of the Temple. Which is exactly what Judas did after his betrayal - threw the coins into the potter's section of the Temple Compound.
Also the chief priests who paid to Judas, have taken the money from Temple treasury, the money that were intended for the specific purpose of purchasing sacrifices. They didn't realize it, but that's exactly what they did.


Will await for Jewish moms who have Rabbinic interpretations, since I only have Hebrew Christians interpretation (the once who know Hebrew inside and out).
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#303 of 305 Old 10-07-2006, 03:58 PM
 
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Yeah, you know, I think Jews would care a whole lot less (read: not at all) about the whole issue if it weren't something that Christians used to try to convert Jews.



I mean, I used to get an incredible amount of junk mail from Christian proselytizing organizations that was incredibly offensively deceptive ... all very slick, too. There's one in particular called "Issues" that sticks out in my mind, always has a "from the shtetl" story and all sorts of Jewish-looking-and-sounding content, and is all devoted to "mashiach" this and "mashiach" that, and then when you get to the last paragraph of the last article they finally come out of hiding and you get the whole "believing in Jesus is Jewish" thing.



Makes me nuts.





/rant
I so feel your pain. I am lucky that I'm not on any mailing lists from them but I get to hear it at work all the time. One coworker in particular loves to tell me about her Jewish friend who is so happy now that he found Jesus. I'll be talking to her for half the day sometimes before I figure out she's trying to pull something again.
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#304 of 305 Old 10-08-2006, 11:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Janelovesmax View Post
Verses 12-14 describe the value placed upn the work of the good shepherd, In verse 12, the good shepherd asks the leadership for his wages.
Where does it say, he asks the "leadership?" He asks "the traffickers in the sheep." Who are they? Sound like slave traders to me, looking at the context.

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He is paid thirty pieces of silver which is like the value for a dead slave at that time. Therefore the work of good shepherd is therefore judged to be equivalent to a dead slave. An insult. But who is really insulted? Not the prophet.
The Lord says: "throw it to the potter, that magnificent price (sarcasm) at which I valued by them".
I see nothing about "potter" in Zechariah. I see, "throw it into the treasury" of the "house of the lord." I agree about the sarcasm.

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It is the Lord who is Good shepherd, It is the Lord whose work is so despised as to be valued in such low price.
You mean Jesus? Zech is concerned with the return of the Judahite elite from Babylonian exile. He is speaking of himself as a good shepherd who is frustrated in his mission of uniting Israel and Judah.

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At least to me, it seems as if Zecharia is merely an actor playing the prophetic role.
You mean he was pretending to be a prophet?

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Then the prophet is told to take the the 30 pieces of silver and throw them away by throwing them into the potter's are of the Temple.

...Which is exactly what Judas did after his betrayal - threw the coins into the potter's section of the Temple Compound.
No. In GMatthew 27:3-10, it is written Judas felt guilt and took the 30 pieces of silver and threw them down in the Temple. Apparently just threw them on the floor. The priests decided they should not put the money in the treasury, so they bought a "Potters' Field" with it, a place to bury foreigners. This chapter wrongly quotes Jeremiah : as the prophecy of the 30 silver shekels idea.

Zechariah 11:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-b...on=rsv&x=8&y=7

Matt27:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-b...n=rsv&x=10&y=7

The other gospels do not mention Judas's fate. Acts 1 says Judas himself buys a field with the money. Obviously there are 2 different traditions recorded.

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Also the chief priests who paid to Judas, have taken the money from Temple treasury, the money that were intended for the specific purpose of purchasing sacrifices. They didn't realize it, but that's exactly what they did.
Where do you see that? Matt12:14 says the priests gave Judas the money, but it does not say where they got it from.

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Will await for Jewish moms who have Rabbinic interpretations, since I only have Hebrew Christians interpretation (the once who know Hebrew inside and out).
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#305 of 305 Old 10-08-2006, 12:21 PM
 
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Scholarly discussion (includes Hebrew speakers) on the "like a lion/pierced" debate:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=159132
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