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#91 of 305 Old 09-14-2006, 07:20 PM
 
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But if they also get a second chance, then none of them, including Jesus, are yet the Messiah. It doesn't compute any way you look at it - either Jesus id the Messiah *and* already fulfilled the Jewish requirements for the "job" or he isn't yet, and will get a second chance along with all the others who came and failed. The Messiah isn't the Messiah until he does what he's supposed to do - *that* is how he'll be known. Oh, and he won't deserve, ask for, or accept worship, but merely point all back to God.

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#92 of 305 Old 09-14-2006, 07:26 PM
 
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There is no second chance though ... the prophecies don't read, "here's what you are to do, and if you get killed the first time through, you'll get a second chance." Could you go up a few posts and read the verses I wrote? Those speak of the requirements for the Messiah. Oh, and human sacrifice is specifically forbidden, as one person attoning for another (see Moses in the desert trying to take on the sins of the people upon himself ... God doesn't allow it. Also see Ezekiel chapter 18 - it is a beautiful chapter on righteousness.

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#93 of 305 Old 09-14-2006, 07:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by KoalaMommy
I'm willing to give any guy who fulfilled at least 20 of the prophecies and who returns and fulfills all the rest another look. What about you, would you be willing to do the same? In the end, he has to fulfill them all though, either the first time or the second.
Nope; but if he gets all but one I'll probably cut him some slack.

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#94 of 305 Old 09-14-2006, 08:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by KoalaMommy
Who said they couldn't have a second chance? I never said that.

According to this site, Jesus fulfilled 50 of the prophecies. Admittedly, it's from a Christian perspective, so you may or may not agree.

I'm willing to give any guy who fulfilled at least 20 of the prophecies and who returns and fulfills all the rest another look. What about you, would you be willing to do the same? In the end, he has to fulfill them all though, either the first time or the second.
OK, see I didn't know that. I didn't know Christians (or I guess I mean some Christians, I'm assuming there must be differing views about the matter, probably by different denominations?) were willing to consider another person might be the mossiah, a different person besides Jesus might be the one that completes the rest of the prophesies they missed. Interesting.

Myself, personally I would not be willing to give anyone a look who fulfilled 20 out of 50 prophesies (although your 50 are different than what my prophesies would be). But that is because what I learned was he would do them all. I had never learned any such thing about a second chance, second coming, either he is or he isn't. But it wasn't really taught to me that it's a big deal, in the way that it is to Christians. My life or death and eternal everything doesn't depend on me recognizing who is or isn't a messiah. And besides, I don't really need to ponder it, I mean either those things happen in my lifetime or they don't. Does that even make any sense? Maybe I don't describe it right.

But what we have learned, you and I, is so different. I was taught it is just going to be a man, and these things are going to happen on the earth. Just a man, and just events in time. No god, no son of a god, no savior, no death, no resurection. And no sacrifice. Actually, I guess more sacrifices since there will be a rebuilt temple, but no human sacrifice for me or for anyone ever.

OK, but now I'm intrigued. Especially at the idea that one of the failed messiahs might come back and complete the prophesies.

I have to do some stuff, I'm at work right now, but I want to come back and see this.
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#95 of 305 Old 09-14-2006, 10:44 PM
 
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Here are just some Messianic Prophecies that Christians believe Christ fulfilled. If anyone wants to go over a specific scripture, please let me know.

1.He would be a Human - Genesis 3:15
2.He would be a descendant of Abraham Genesis 22:18
3.He would be from the Tribe of Judah = Genesis 49:10
4.He would be a Son of David - Isaiah 11:1-2; Jeremiah 23:5-6, Chronicles 17:10b-14
5.He would be both God and Man - Isaiah 7:14; Isaiah 9:6-7; Jeremiah 23:5-6;Micah 5:2; Zechariah 12:10; Zechariah 13:7; Psalm 80:17; Psalm 110:1-7
6.He will liver eternally - Chronicles 17:10b-14

7.He would be full of Holy Spirit - Isaiah 11:1-2; Isaiah 42:1-4
8.He would be humble - Zechariah 9:9-10
9.He would be gentle -Isaiah 42:1-4
10.He would have a unique relationship wth God - Psalm 2:7-12
11.He would be the Son of God - Psalm 2:7-12; Proverbs 30:4
12.Messiah would be a good shepherd - Zechariah 11:1-17

13.He would be a virgin birth - Isaiah 7:14
14.He would be born in normal circumstances - Isaiah 52:13 - 53:12
15.He would be born in poverty - Isaiah 11:1-2
16.He would be proceded by a herald - Isaiah 40:3-5, Malachi 3:1
17.He would be born in Bethlehem, city of David - Micah 5:2
18.He would be seen riding on the donkey - Zechariah 9:9-10
19.he would be present 483 years after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem -Daniel 9:24-27
20.He would appear before 70AD - Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 8:9-10; Isaiah 9:6-7; Zecharia 11:1-17; Daniele 9:24-27

21.He would be a king - Genesis 49:10, Numbers 24:17a; Isaiah 7:14; Isaiah 9:6-7; Jeremiah 23:5-6; 1Chronicles 17:10b-14; Psalm 110:1-7;
22.He would be a priest - Psalm 110:1-7
23.He would be a prophet - Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Isaiah 61:1-2a

24.He would be specially trained - Isaiah 50:4-9
25.He would remove the curse due to Adam's fall - Genesis 5:21-29
26.He would bring salvation to the Gentile nations - Isaiah 42:1-4; Isaiah 49:1-13
27.He would be rejected first - Isaiah 49:1-13; Isaiah 52:13-53:12; Zechaqriah 11:1-17; Zechariah 12:10; Psalm 22, Psalm 110:1-7
28.He would only be accepted by a small believing remnant of the people - Zechariah 11:1-17
29.He would appear to fail but in fact be successful -Isaiah 42:1-4

30.He would be sold for 30 pieces of silver - Zechariah 11:1-17
31.His rejection would result in an attack upon Israel and the scattering of the people - Zechariah 11:1-17; Zechariah 13:7
32.His rejection would be followed by the acceptance of a false Messiah - ZEcharia 11:1-17
33.He would eventually be accepted - Isaiah 49:1-13; Psalm 110:1-7
34.He would be seated at the right hand of God - Psalm 80:17; Psalm 110:1-7

35.He would suffer - Isaiah 50:4 - 9; Isaiah 52:13-53:12; Psalm 22
36.He would be legally tried and condemned to death - Isaiah 52:13-53:12
37.He would die - Psalm 16:1-11
38.He would be executed - Isaiah 52:13-53:12; Daniel 9:24-27
39.He would die a violent death by means of piercing - Zechariah 12:10; Zecharia 13:7; Psalm 22
40.His death would be substitutionary - Isaiah 52:13-53:12
41.His death would result in destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple-Daniel 9:24-27
42.He would be buried in a rich man's tomb - Isaiah 52:13-53:12
43.He would be resurrected - Isaiah 52:13-53:12; Psalm 16:1-11; Psalm 22
44.He would bring justification to those who believe in Him - Isaiah 52:13-53:12
45.He will be a ruler of gentile nations - Psalm 2:7-12
46.He willl rule over Israel in the Messianic Kingdom - Psalm 110:1-7

As you see it took me a really long time to write this, so if you disagree, please disagree respectfully.
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#96 of 305 Old 09-15-2006, 01:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by KoalaMommy
So I have a question for you Jewish mamas that all this has brought up.

Since you believe that the messiah has not yet come, how will you know, when he does come, that he is a direct descendant from David?

Do you know your lineage? Your tribe?

I'm really currious about this, not to argue, it's just that I know very little about my family history before the Mayflower.
*I* don't know my lineage, but there are those, alive today, who claim to have documented lineage back to Dovid HaMelech (King David). I will have to look up some of these people. The genealogy of great rabbis is considered a pretty important and valuable thing that has often been well documented in Jewish society.
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#97 of 305 Old 09-15-2006, 10:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Janelovesmax
Here are just some Messianic Prophecies that Christians believe Christ fulfilled. If anyone wants to go over a specific scripture, please let me know.
...
As you see it took me a really long time to write this, so if you disagree, please disagree respectfully.
Refutation from a Jewish POV is available online. Here is one such site:

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/jewsandjesus.htm

What follows is paraphrases and my own original thought.

Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies...

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists...

the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, nor will he possess supernatural qualities.

The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:1)... the Christian claim [is] that Jesus ... had no [earthly]father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement...

[adding in the step-father clause does not hold water]

The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance... anyone coming to change the Torah is ...a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)

...Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. (John 1:45, 9:14-16, Acts 3:22, 7:37)

Of course, you have the "alma, betulah, parthenos" mistranslation error/forcing of the text, to create a pagan-style virgin birth.

Psalms 22:17 is another mistranslation issue forced to create a reason for the crucifixion, "piercing/like a lion."

A simple reading of Isaiah, including context, refers to the"suffering servant": Israel as a people, not a future Messiah.

In reading this site I do have issues with some of its "Jewish" ideas (perhaps the views of the author of the site and not official Judaism, I don't know].

Quote:
Judaism, unique among all of the world's major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion.
This is kind of false and unneccessary.

To sum up, many Bible scholars propose that the book of Matthew "quote mines" the Old Testament to compose a life of an ideal Messiah. The author created this figure by using OT quotes and mixing in pagan theology, and by this syncretization, created a new religion for the New Age.

Of course, religious syncretization was not a new thing, it was done by every culture in history previous to this as well.
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#98 of 305 Old 09-15-2006, 02:50 PM
 
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What about all the other men who met some of the prophesies? Why does Jesus get a second chance to come back and finish when the others don't. Or do they?
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Who said they couldn't have a second chance? I never said that.
How does this work? Is this idea only accepted in some denominations or is it a pretty general Christian idea? If the other failed messiahs can possibly have a second chance, how does that work? Is the focus only on Jesus at the moment because it is thought he filled more prophesies than the others? Or is it something else he said? Is it just faith? What happens when another failed messiah besides Jesus comes back and starts finishing prophesies he missed the first time? How does that work in to Christianity? What will become of Jesus when this happens? Do some Christians keep track of the names of these men?
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#99 of 305 Old 09-15-2006, 02:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DaryLLL
Refutation from a Jewish POV is available online. Here is one such site:

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/jewsandjesus.htm

What follows is paraphrases and my own original thought.

Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies...

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists...

the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, nor will he possess supernatural qualities.

The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:1)... the Christian claim [is] that Jesus ... had no [earthly]father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement...

[adding in the step-father clause does not hold water]

The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance... anyone coming to change the Torah is ...a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)

...Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. (John 1:45, 9:14-16, Acts 3:22, 7:37)

Of course, you have the "alma, betulah, parthenos" mistranslation error/forcing of the text, to create a pagan-style virgin birth.

Psalms 22:17 is another mistranslation issue forced to create a reason for the crucifixion, "piercing/like a lion."

A simple reading of Isaiah, including context, refers to the"suffering servant": Israel as a people, not a future Messiah.

In reading this site I do have issues with some of its "Jewish" ideas (perhaps the views of the author of the site and not official Judaism, I don't know].



This is kind of false and unneccessary.

To sum up, many Bible scholars propose that the book of Matthew "quote mines" the Old Testament to compose a life of an ideal Messiah. The author created this figure by using OT quotes and mixing in pagan theology, and by this syncretization, created a new religion for the New Age.

Of course, religious syncretization was not a new thing, it was done by every culture in history previous to this as well.
I have the answer to a lot of these, especially the one that says that Isaiah referres to Israel (which is really a modern concept, about 150years old) unfortunately I'm at work now and I will answer to you tonight.
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#100 of 305 Old 09-15-2006, 02:59 PM
 
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The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:1)... the Christian claim [is] that Jesus ... had no [earthly]father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement...

Just a quick note, no where that I saw that Messiah must be descended on HIS FATHER'S SIDE FROM KIND DAVID. Actually as I said b/4 he is descended on HIS MOTHER'S side to Kind David.
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#101 of 305 Old 09-15-2006, 03:02 PM
 
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[QUOTE=DaryLLL]
Psalms 22:17 is another mistranslation issue forced to create a reason for the crucifixion, "piercing/like a lion."

QUOTE]

Kindly re-read Zechariah, as Psalm 22 is not the only source.
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#102 of 305 Old 09-15-2006, 03:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BinahYeteirah
*I* don't know my lineage, but there are those, alive today, who claim to have documented lineage back to Dovid HaMelech (King David). I will have to look up some of these people. The genealogy of great rabbis is considered a pretty important and valuable thing that has often been well documented in Jewish society.
I don't know much of the history if to be completely honest. However, isn't it true that after the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem after 70AD the documents that can trace the lineage were lost?
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#103 of 305 Old 09-15-2006, 03:18 PM
 
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sorry, I don't have time to explain it in my own words...
I found this just now, so I might or might not have anything to add to this...When I get home tonight, I'll some thoughts... :-)

http://www.chaim.org/nation.htm

Sorry had to edit due to copyright rules.
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#104 of 305 Old 09-15-2006, 03:31 PM
 
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I don't know much of the history if to be completely honest. However, isn't it true that after the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem after 70AD the documents that can trace the lineage were lost?
Not exactly, Jane. While 10 of the 12 tribes were lost The Kohainim and Leviites are still known today - and still have functions today.

The Davidic Line has been carefully watched and kept track of. I don't know all the details, and I believe it is a well kept secret.

But I do know this, in every generation there is a possible Moshiach. Whenever we are ready that person will be revealed. Throughout history many people came close to fulfilling the requirements - Jesus, if you will, but also Bar Kochba, and even more recently Rabbi Menachem Schneerson or the Baba Sal. However, all of them died without fulfilling all requirements - while all fulfilled some, because for whatever reason we were not ready. Therefore, while any of them may have been the Moshiach of their generation, none of them were THE moshiach since we are all still living in golus (which I believe is translated as "exile").

So, unless any one thinks that we are actually living in the Messianic age, it seems obvious to me that at this moment there is no messiah.

So that is where I get hung up.
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#105 of 305 Old 09-15-2006, 06:15 PM
 
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2. The prophet said: "It pleased the LORD to bruise him." Has the awful treatment of the Jewish people (so contrary, by the way, to the teaching of Jesus to love everyone) really been God's pleasure, as is said of the suffering of the servant in Isaiah 53:10 ?
My translation (NRSV) says:

"It was the will of the Lord to crush him with pain [or disease/meaning of Hebrew uncertain.]"

Yes, it is consistent with other OT passages that YHWH uses suffering, often in the form of conquest by large empires, to punish his people for their unfaithfulness and to hopefully teach them a lesson.

The chapter seems, to me, to refer to the return of the exiles from Babylon, perhaps led by a poetically depicted symbolic representative.
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#106 of 305 Old 09-16-2006, 04:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by yonit
Not exactly, Jane. While 10 of the 12 tribes were lost The Kohainim and Leviites are still known today - and still have functions today.

The Davidic Line has been carefully watched and kept track of. I don't know all the details, and I believe it is a well kept secret.

But I do know this, in every generation there is a possible Moshiach. Whenever we are ready that person will be revealed. Throughout history many people came close to fulfilling the requirements - Jesus, if you will, but also Bar Kochba, and even more recently Rabbi Menachem Schneerson or the Baba Sal. However, all of them died without fulfilling all requirements - while all fulfilled some, because for whatever reason we were not ready. Therefore, while any of them may have been the Moshiach of their generation, none of them were THE moshiach since we are all still living in golus (which I believe is translated as "exile").

So, unless any one thinks that we are actually living in the Messianic age, it seems obvious to me that at this moment there is no messiah.

So that is where I get hung up.
I understand. Of course I understand what you mean. I wasn't born into Christianity so I used to think like you, but I guess it all comes to just one thing: awakening.
If one cannot accept that Messiah is meant to be rejected first, then the second coming will be foreign, no matter how hard I try to explain.
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#107 of 305 Old 09-16-2006, 04:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DaryLLL
My translation (NRSV) says:

"It was the will of the Lord to crush him with pain [or disease/meaning of Hebrew uncertain.]"

Yes, it is consistent with other OT passages that YHWH uses suffering, often in the form of conquest by large empires, to punish his people for their unfaithfulness and to hopefully teach them a lesson.

The chapter seems, to me, to refer to the return of the exiles from Babylon, perhaps led by a poetically depicted symbolic representative.
And I have "Yet it Pleased Jehovah to bruise him" (ASV).
So I guess it comes down to interpretation doesn't it?
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#108 of 305 Old 09-16-2006, 05:19 PM
 
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And I have "Yet it Pleased Jehovah to bruise him" (ASV).
So I guess it comes down to interpretation doesn't it?
Jehovah isn't even a real word. It's not interpretation, it's a poor translation. The Hebrew is unclear on the crush/bruise/pain/disease thing. So you can't use it as a proof text.
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#109 of 305 Old 09-16-2006, 06:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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If one cannot accept that Messiah is meant to be rejected first, then the second coming will be foreign, no matter how hard I try to explain.
I don't buy it-- where does it say that the rejection will come before he does everything else? I don't really see how awakening could play into this. It's all spelled out, this is the stuff that needs to be done, and this is the stuff that didn't happen... The second coming idea is only necessary if God didn't get it right the first time, and isn't God supposed to be infalliable?

I'm confused about something else, too-- someone posted that they believe that Jesus is still alive in the body now, but we're not living in the Messianic age... there would need to be a second coming for that to happen, but how can there be a second coming if the dude never left?

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#110 of 305 Old 09-16-2006, 09:50 PM
 
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Yes, that was also my understanding. I don't mean to offend anyone, but I was taught that one of the Disciples - I forget which one, Paul maybe - basically made up the virgin birth to make C-tianity more palpable to the pagans and to get them to convert, since that was part of their belief system.

The same reason that C-mas is celebrated in December, with trees -all in an attempt to ease pagans into their beliefs, since they already celebrated then anyway.
Okay, I know that this discussion otherwise has nothing to do with my beliefs. However, I would like to remark on Easter. Easter is also Pagan, of Germanic/Northern Heathen roots. It is the time of year we honor Eostre for her REBIRTH. She is the bringer of life in the spring, the time of year when the earth is reborn. There is a xtian scholar, Venerable Bede, that wrote all about this topic when researching it: De Ratione Temporum.

Yonit, and this is not meant to be snarky in any way, Pagans weren't really settled into a religion. They too were killed off for their beliefs. I guess they got tired of being martyrs after a few hundred years.

From a non-xtian/jewish view, I always viewed them as seperate religions. I always looked a xtianity as a new religion using what they wanted/felt comfortable with from the Jewish folks beliefs. Just as there are many stories that are older than both with similar tales. Oh well, I was always taught there are many paths. Although not of the chosen, I'm okay with it, as we are slowly being allowed to find our way back to our Gods/Goddesses too ;-)...

This is interesting, thank you for allowing me to share.

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#111 of 305 Old 09-16-2006, 10:19 PM
 
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I don't buy it-- where does it say that the rejection will come before he does everything else? I don't really see how awakening could play into this. It's all spelled out, this is the stuff that needs to be done, and this is the stuff that didn't happen...
Exactly, it's all spelled out - about rejection as well.
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#112 of 305 Old 09-16-2006, 10:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DaryLLL
Jehovah isn't even a real word. It's not interpretation, it's a poor translation. The Hebrew is unclear on the crush/bruise/pain/disease thing. So you can't use it as a proof text.
Mmm, and you can?
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#113 of 305 Old 09-16-2006, 11:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feyfollow
Yonit, and this is not meant to be snarky in any way, Pagans weren't really settled into a religion. They too were killed off for their beliefs. I guess they got tired of being martyrs after a few hundred years.
Yes, fey, i realize this and you are completely right and I did not word it probperly. I guess what I meant is that many pagan groups had the belief in a virgin birth, well before C-tianity.

And yes, C-tians did kill many pagans - as well as Jews - for refusing to convert. I guess one of the major differences is that the Jews didn't get "tired of being martyrs". Sometimes it seems we have gotten too good at it....
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#114 of 305 Old 09-16-2006, 11:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janelovesmax
Exactly, it's all spelled out - about rejection as well.
Where is it spelled out? In the OT? I have never learned that as part of the Jewish tradition....
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#115 of 305 Old 09-17-2006, 09:48 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janelovesmax
Mmm, and you can?
No, I'm not trying to use anything as a proof, I am refuting a few of the common ones apologists use.

The word Jehovah comes from combing the consonants of YHWH combined with the vowels from Adonai, which word was used in place of the tetragrammaton to remind Jewish readers not to say it, as it was sacred.
Quote:
Jewish practice of reading Adonai (Heb. adonay) "Lord" for yhwh or reading Elohim (Heb. elohim) in place of the Hebrew compound yhwh adonay to avoid the duplication of adonay. The vowels of adonay (a-o-a) were placed under the tetragrammaton to remind the reader that he was not to pronounce yhwh but instead was to read the word as adonay. Christians who were unaware of this substitution read the vowels as if they actually belonged to yhwh, which resulted in the English form "YeHoWaH" or JeHoVaH" (the a of adonay having been reduced to e under the y of yhwh).
Keep in mind in various European regions, W and V are interchanged, as are J and Y.
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#116 of 305 Old 09-17-2006, 10:46 AM
 
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Dary, since you know so much, can you, if you know, tell me about the Christians the other poster said like herself who don't say that Jesus is the only failed messiah who might come back and have another shot to finish their missed prophesies? Which Christian denoms believe this? And if so why the focus only on Jesus?

I'm talking about when I said:
Quote:
What about all the other men who met some of the prophesies? Why does Jesus get a second chance to come back and finish when the others don't. Or do they?
and she said:
Quote:
Who said they couldn't have a second chance? I never said that
how does all that work? I'm hoping Dary knows since the OP hasn't come back to answer. Well, she's come back, but not to answer my question.
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#117 of 305 Old 09-17-2006, 11:10 AM
 
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No, I have never heard that theory, mara. I do not know where she is getting it.

Maybe she thinks Schneerson holds as much credibility as Jesus:

wiki:

Quote:
Menachem Mendel Schneerson


Among the Chabad Lubavitch sect of Hasidic Judaism there was a growing messianic fervour in the late 1980s and early 1990s due to the belief that their Rebbe, Menachem Mendel Schneerson was about to reveal himself to be the messiah. Schneerson's death in 1994 abated this sentiment somewhat though many of his followers still believe he will be the messiah and will reveal himself when the time is right... Many of his followers chant the Yechi, a mantra glorifying him as the messiah.
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#118 of 305 Old 09-17-2006, 11:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yonit
Where is it spelled out? In the OT? I have never learned that as part of the Jewish tradition....
Hi Yonit mom,

Please kindly read my post#95, points 27-43. I listed the places. As well as the link on my post#103. I guess I shouldn't say "spelled-out" because nothing is spelled out.
If you want to discuss specific place, let me know.
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#119 of 305 Old 09-17-2006, 11:31 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaryLLL
No, I'm not trying to use anything as a proof, I am refuting a few of the common ones apologists use.

The word Jehovah comes from combing the consonants of YHWH combined with the vowels from Adonai, which word was used in place of the tetragrammaton to remind Jewish readers not to say it, as it was sacred.


Keep in mind in various European regions, W and V are interchanged, as are J and Y.
ok.
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#120 of 305 Old 09-17-2006, 11:33 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yonit
Yes, fey, i realize this and you are completely right and I did not word it probperly. I guess what I meant is that many pagan groups had the belief in a virgin birth, well before C-tianity.

And yes, C-tians did kill many pagans - as well as Jews - for refusing to convert. I guess one of the major differences is that the Jews didn't get "tired of being martyrs". Sometimes it seems we have gotten too good at it....
But also let's not forget how many Jews (first Christians) were killed by accepting Christ as their saviour.
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