Jewish Circumcision and the Frenulum - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
 5Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 128 Old 08-01-2006, 01:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
Revamp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,519
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Bris Milah requires the removal of the mucous membrane, correct?

Why then is the frenulum removed? Is this not somewhat excessive? Or is it a case of failure in development of aforementioned organ? Is its excision actually required? Is it mentioned at all within your scripture?
Revamp is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#2 of 128 Old 08-02-2006, 02:23 PM
 
jessjgh1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: South Shore MA
Posts: 4,744
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Subscribing

Jessica..lady.gifintactlact.gif Falling in love all over again..... 
Dhprivateeyes.gif, Joshua rolleyes.gif Rebeccagrouphug.gifand dog2.gif.    candle.gif for Laura
jessjgh1 is offline  
#3 of 128 Old 08-02-2006, 03:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
Revamp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,519
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
In fact I would be interested if those who have observed one occur could tell me whether the Rabbis even do this.

If so is it part of the general procedure or do they have to make an actual action to remove it that is seperate from the rest of the ritual?
Revamp is offline  
#4 of 128 Old 08-08-2006, 09:55 PM
 
Ruthla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 43,652
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
I was in the room during my son's Bris but I wasn't closely watching the procedure- I was on the couch about 3 feet away, holding my then 5yo DD on my lap (the almost 7yo was on her Bubbie's lap at the other end of the couch.)

The entire procedure took less than a minute, from the Mohel opening up his diaper to wrapping up the wound and putting a clean diaper on. The cutting itself took about 10 or 15 seconds. There wasn't time for any "special procedures" besides the circ itself.

Ruth, single mommy to Leah, 19 (in Israel for another school year), Hannah, 18 (commuting to college), and Jack, 12(homeschooled)
Ruthla is offline  
#5 of 128 Old 08-09-2006, 08:08 AM - Thread Starter
 
Revamp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,519
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
So was the frenulum removed?
Revamp is offline  
#6 of 128 Old 08-09-2006, 11:20 AM
 
SaraFR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,671
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revamp
So was the frenulum removed?
I keep meaning to ask my dh. Unfortunately my family members are taking turns getting sick (YY hit over 105 degree temp. last night) so I keep forgetting.
SaraFR is offline  
#7 of 128 Old 08-09-2006, 01:31 PM
 
georgia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: tl;dr
Posts: 25,384
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thread open

I have retired from administration work, so if you have a question about anything MDC-related, please contact Cynthia Mosher. Thanks!
 
georgia is offline  
#8 of 128 Old 08-13-2006, 10:58 PM
 
SaraFR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,671
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaraFR
I keep meaning to ask my dh. Unfortunately my family members are taking turns getting sick (YY hit over 105 degree temp. last night) so I keep forgetting.
After a few days of high fevers, we're getting back to normal.

I asked Dh. He would probably (ok, almost definitely) know the answer but there is one problem; English isn't his first language and he doesn't know what "frenulum" means. If you can find out how to say frenulum in Russian then he should be able to give an anawer. I know this sounds a bit silly but it would help you get your answer.
SaraFR is offline  
#9 of 128 Old 08-14-2006, 10:00 AM - Thread Starter
 
Revamp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,519
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thank you Georgia.

Sara: Umm... Quite a dillemna there.

Honestly? I had no idea whatsoever how to say it in Russian beforehand. I have enough troubles with French.

But a translation service told me this:

Без перевода.

But another two claimed it was this: Уздечка

Not sure which one (if either) is actually accurate, or even if he would know the word even if you did (most people here in Britain probably would not). Or how to pronounce either of them for that matter.

And if this is any help its literal meaning in Greek is "Bow string" and it is a pretty distinctive tag of tissue along the underside of the tissue which acts as a connective band between the prepuce and glans (when there is anything to connect that is).
Revamp is offline  
#10 of 128 Old 08-14-2006, 02:56 PM
 
SaraFR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,671
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revamp
Thank you Georgia.

Sara: Umm... Quite a dillemna there.

Honestly? I had no idea whatsoever how to say it in Russian beforehand. I have enough troubles with French.

But a translation service told me this:

Без перевода.

But another two claimed it was this: Уздечка

Not sure which one (if either) is actually accurate, or even if he would know the word even if you did (most people here in Britain probably would not). Or how to pronounce either of them for that matter.

And if this is any help its literal meaning in Greek is "Bow string" and it is a pretty distinctive tag of tissue along the underside of the tissue which acts as a connective band between the prepuce and glans (when there is anything to connect that is).
Thank you for doing the research. I'll try to remember to show it to him this evening.
SaraFR is offline  
#11 of 128 Old 08-14-2006, 04:08 PM
 
jessjgh1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: South Shore MA
Posts: 4,744
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Maybe it would help to explain the other body locations of frenulum, for example the tongue has a frenulum that partially attaches the toungue to the mouth and helps keep the toungue flat (I might be simplifing things too much).

And maybe the top of the lip also has a similar structure (is that also called a frenulum?). If you stick your tongue tip up between your teeth and your top lip, you can feel it.

Jessica

Jessica..lady.gifintactlact.gif Falling in love all over again..... 
Dhprivateeyes.gif, Joshua rolleyes.gif Rebeccagrouphug.gifand dog2.gif.    candle.gif for Laura
jessjgh1 is offline  
#12 of 128 Old 08-15-2006, 11:30 PM
 
SaraFR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,671
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Dh said he is pretty sure it is left intact. Yes, there should be a frenulum left after bris mila.
SaraFR is offline  
#13 of 128 Old 08-16-2006, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
Revamp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,519
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessjgh1
Maybe it would help to explain the other body locations of frenulum, for example the tongue has a frenulum that partially attaches the toungue to the mouth and helps keep the toungue flat (I might be simplifing things too much).

And maybe the top of the lip also has a similar structure (is that also called a frenulum?). If you stick your tongue tip up between your teeth and your top lip, you can feel it.
Yes, that too is a frenulum. As is the near identical organ which connects the bottom lip to the gums. A little harder to feel but it is there. None of these three are as fun to stimulate though, which is a pity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaraFR
Dh said he is pretty sure it is left intact. Yes, there should be a frenulum left after bris mila.
I see, thank you very much for asking for me.

I wonder if there is some discrepancy from rabbi to rabbi over this one? There seems to be over how "High and tight" the circumcision is (that is to say, how much, if any, tissue is left) so perhaps this is the same.

I certainly hope not though.
Revamp is offline  
#14 of 128 Old 08-16-2006, 03:22 PM
 
boingo82's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: A new-to-us house!!
Posts: 9,299
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaraFR
Dh said he is pretty sure it is left intact. Yes, there should be a frenulum left after bris mila.
Does it just dangle, or is it attached? I can't picture how this works. Either the inner foreskin is removed, in which case it would have to dangle from the glans, or more shaft skin is removed while inner foreskin is peeled back onto the shaft, in which case the frenulum would be stretched painfully backwards.
Does that make sense? Is there another option I'm missing?
boingo82 is offline  
#15 of 128 Old 08-16-2006, 04:23 PM
 
SaraFR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,671
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by boingo82
Does it just dangle, or is it attached? I can't picture how this works. Either the inner foreskin is removed, in which case it would have to dangle from the glans, or more shaft skin is removed while inner foreskin is peeled back onto the shaft, in which case the frenulum would be stretched painfully backwards.
Does that make sense? Is there another option I'm missing?
BTW-caps are used for stressing something or pointing out a word, not to yell.

Please note, I am posting PURELY for informational purposes because the question was asked. I am NOT trying to convince anyone of anything. I am well aware and respect that MDC is anti-RIC and I respect that. In fact, I think it would be a bit awkward if MDC DID support RIC.

I could ask Dh the new questions if you want. I didn't want to post this because I felt it would get attacked. I WILL post it because it might answer your question.

Now, don't attack: When I asked Dh about it, his comment was "they don't go down THAT far". Perhaps traditional bris mila leaves more foreskin than the hospital does, I don't know. I think another mother posted that this is in fact true (that bris leaves more). There is much to "disagree" on regarding whether or not there is a difference between bris mila and RIC. I DON'T want to get into that when I say my next comment. All I WILL say is that the way a traditional bris mila is done and the way a hospital circ. is done are two different procedures. I am not arguing over whether or not they have the same result, etc...I've compared the actual bris procedure to the hospital one and the actual procedure is done quite differently. It's possible that the end result might not look EXACTLY the same. For example, the hospital uses a clamp, traditional bris mila doesn't. Again, I DON'T want to argue whether or not they have the same results, problems, etc...

Was that enough disclaimers???

I apologize that I can't answer each question point for point, simply because I am not an expert in the penis nor am I a male and in possession of one. I will try my best though. I don't think there is anything "dangling". When changing diapers and bathing my boys, nothing "dangles". Also, there is no discomfort (that I know of) that is experienced by the frenulum area. You expressed that concern in the last line.

I hope I have maintained the respectful tone that I had intended on this appropriately emotional topic.
SaraFR is offline  
#16 of 128 Old 08-16-2006, 05:06 PM
 
orangebird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Barack's Camp, and still loving Mah
Posts: 7,317
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Very nice. I think you did a great job explaining that.

I have had the frenulum question too, but have never sought out comparing penises to get an answer IYKWIM
orangebird is offline  
#17 of 128 Old 08-16-2006, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
Revamp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,519
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaraFR
BTW-caps are used for stressing something or pointing out a word, not to yell.

Please note, I am posting PURELY for informational purposes because the question was asked. I am NOT trying to convince anyone of anything. I am well aware and respect that MDC is anti-RIC and I respect that. In fact, I think it would be a bit awkward if MDC DID support RIC.

I could ask Dh the new questions if you want. I didn't want to post this because I felt it would get attacked. I WILL post it because it might answer your question.

Now, don't attack: When I asked Dh about it, his comment was "they don't go down THAT far". Perhaps traditional bris mila leaves more foreskin than the hospital does, I don't know. I think another mother posted that this is in fact true (that bris leaves more). There is much to "disagree" on regarding whether or not there is a difference between bris mila and RIC. I DON'T want to get into that when I say my next comment. All I WILL say is that the way a traditional bris mila is done and the way a hospital circ. is done are two different procedures. I am not arguing over whether or not they have the same result, etc...I've compared the actual bris procedure to the hospital one and the actual procedure is done quite differently. It's possible that the end result might not look EXACTLY the same. For example, the hospital uses a clamp, traditional bris mila doesn't. Again, I DON'T want to argue whether or not they have the same results, problems, etc...

Was that enough disclaimers???

I apologize that I can't answer each question point for point, simply because I am not an expert in the penis nor am I a male and in possession of one. I will try my best though. I don't think there is anything "dangling". When changing diapers and bathing my boys, nothing "dangles". Also, there is no discomfort (that I know of) that is experienced by the frenulum area. You expressed that concern in the last line.

I hope I have maintained the respectful tone that I had intended on this appropriately emotional topic.
No disclaimers needed, we are talking about two contrasting methods here so there is indeed a possibility that we would have constrasting end results.

If you have circumcised boys then (asides from the frustration it may cause me in my attempts to refrain from ranting about bodily integrity and a blithe disregard for consent and personal rights and such) things could be simplified: although some damage must be done to the frenulum during any circumcision (due to the fact that the organ severed and the organ, hypothetically at least, retained are attatched) the remnants of it would probably be pretty distinctive and fill the frenular delta, which is invariably left barren and bald in the instance of a frenectomy.

I am currently attempting to consider whether there is some way that it could be removed unintentionally, at present I doubt it.

Thanks again for asking, that "They don't go down THAT far" is certainly interesting. It certainly would suggest a lower and looser cut than the standard hospital circumcision. I wonder once again if there is some variation over this though...
Revamp is offline  
#18 of 128 Old 08-17-2006, 04:20 AM
 
mamaverdi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 12,572
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
There are traditional requirements, and then there is what mohels in other streams of Judaism are taught. As far as I have seen, an orthodox bris can be quite different in practice and result from from others. But this will vary by practioner as well.

mv
mamaverdi is offline  
#19 of 128 Old 08-18-2006, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
 
Revamp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,519
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
So there is no real consensus then?

But surely if not considered part of the actual ritual it would breach the commandment not to cut or mark the body?
Revamp is offline  
#20 of 128 Old 08-18-2006, 02:25 PM
 
SaraFR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,671
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revamp
So there is no real consensus then?

But surely if not considered part of the actual ritual it would breach the commandment not to cut or mark the body?
What you consider a difference and what we consider a difference are probably not the same thing. I could be wrong but it sounds like you think that different mohelim use different tools and cut different amounts, like doctors. Among Orthodox/traditional Jews, there is not much variation (from what I'm aware) between different practitioners in how much is being cut. They also mostly use a medical (razor-sharp) scalpel without clamps. I'm sure if you search long enough you'll find some random guy that does something differently but the tradition is pretty clear and has been carried out continuously. Again, what non-traditional and non-Orthodox mohels use or do, I don't know. A difference might also be found if the person asks the mohel to use medical (not traditional) procedures or asks a doctor himself to do it. I know of a bris where the father was an OB/gyn and wanted a more "medical" bris because he was swayed by his training.

Now, what differences there are between mohelim might be who holds the baby before the bris, which brand of gauze, how they tie their tallis (ritual garment worn by males), etc...None of these affect the actual cut.

Again, mohels don't randomly cut. There is no need, nor would it be appropriate to cut off any more than is religiously required.

If you need more exact examples or comparisons I can try to provide them. I'm trying to answer to the best of my ability as I am not a mohel nor trained in this so I apologize for any innacuracies.
SaraFR is offline  
#21 of 128 Old 08-19-2006, 03:27 AM
 
orangebird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Barack's Camp, and still loving Mah
Posts: 7,317
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
dp
orangebird is offline  
#22 of 128 Old 08-20-2006, 12:47 AM
 
mamaverdi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 12,572
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revamp
So there is no real consensus then?

But surely if not considered part of the actual ritual it would breach the commandment not to cut or mark the body?
James, maybe you should learn more about Judaism, so you could understand the answers to the questions you are asking.
mamaverdi is offline  
#23 of 128 Old 08-20-2006, 02:08 AM
 
jessjgh1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: South Shore MA
Posts: 4,744
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
FWIW my dh is Jewish and he has no frenulum or extra skin. I have no idea how his circ. was performed. Sometimes I think that he might have had too much skin taken off, but it is hard to know. This is an area he has made clear he doesn't wish to talk much about right now, so I won't be finding more out anytime soon.

Why, the interest in this topic for me?? I can think of discussions between someone who is anti-circ and pro-circ. I'd say these conversations/debates do NOT usually involve Jews. However, the methods, styles, and results of Jewish circumcision are often used to make a point in these conversations. So I do think it is important to be giving out correct information-- or if it is NOT correct, to be able to correct it.

In other terms, I think there are some assumptions and misinformation that is out there about religoius circ/methods/results, etc.. And yes, probably from both sides.

My other interest lies in debating the 'merits' of a loose circ verses a tight circ. Because that comes up. I disagree with the pro-circ view for example, that a loose circ is worse than leaving a boy intact. (and that may not be held by all pro-circers, but it does seem to be a common viewpoint)

And it seems that this thread is going in that direction.... that the Jewish circumcision might be considered looser.

I don't think it is a shock for me to say I am against circumcision for non-religious reasons. There are some very pro-circ people that use the example of Jewish circumcision to promote non-ritual circumcision in a way that I am uncomfortable with. And as I mentioned, it would be nice to correct misinformation- on both sides.

Further exanding here....

I've been under the impression there is a tendency for Jewish americans to follow the american trends in US- but since there ARE actually some kind of guidelines mohels follow it makes a lot of sense that Orthodox Jews would adhere to those guidelines (in the US).

There is speculation that the circs in Israel are looser, for example. I would have to guess a looser circ is closer to the natural condition than a tight circ. And if the frenulum is intact than that man's (and his partner/s) sexual experiences may be fairly close to the 'natural' experience (ie intact).

In the US, too tight circs seemed to be a problem. So now more doctors perform a more loose circumcision. And there are many anti-circs who proclaim the loose circ is the WORST thing and list the many horrible complications, hygeine issues, dealing with adhesions etc. However, on the anti-circ side, most of us would advocate that if you HAD to circ- a looser circ would be 'better' than taking off all the skin (as long as the caretakers follow recommendations to not retract any adhesions).

So maybe there is no answer/no consensus. Another possibility is that individuals vary so much that the results vary and that it might not have much to do with the operator/method etc.

Jessica

Jessica..lady.gifintactlact.gif Falling in love all over again..... 
Dhprivateeyes.gif, Joshua rolleyes.gif Rebeccagrouphug.gifand dog2.gif.    candle.gif for Laura
jessjgh1 is offline  
#24 of 128 Old 08-20-2006, 02:18 AM
 
jessjgh1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: South Shore MA
Posts: 4,744
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamaverdi
James, maybe you should learn more about Judaism, so you could understand the answers to the questions you are asking.
????
I'm trying REALLY hard to figure out your tone here.

Jessica..lady.gifintactlact.gif Falling in love all over again..... 
Dhprivateeyes.gif, Joshua rolleyes.gif Rebeccagrouphug.gifand dog2.gif.    candle.gif for Laura
jessjgh1 is offline  
#25 of 128 Old 08-20-2006, 02:28 AM
 
jessjgh1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: South Shore MA
Posts: 4,744
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaraFR
Again, mohels don't randomly cut. There is no need, nor would it be appropriate to cut off any more than is religiously required.
.
Sara,
Thanks for stressing this. That helps explain things to me a little clearer. I think the problem is that there is enough inconsistency in talking to/hearing about at actual men to wonder if some Jews/Mohels followw a more medical model.

I realize, not only might there be differences between Orthodox and other branches, but differences based on regions, and even just the fact that each individual boy is differnt.

I KNOW I was given wrong information that Jews removed ALL skin to expose the entire glans (this would most likely HAVE to include the frenulum). And I didn't realize that was wrong till pretty recently, even though I seem to think other recent threads served to give me the same impression. Perhaps I need to correct my perception-- even though in my life (aka dh) it is not the reality.

So the fact that there might not be a consensus does just makes life more complicated, but it does help to correct over-generalizations and assumptions.

BTW, Sara, I hope everyone is all in good health for you now. Hugs.

Jessica

Jessica..lady.gifintactlact.gif Falling in love all over again..... 
Dhprivateeyes.gif, Joshua rolleyes.gif Rebeccagrouphug.gifand dog2.gif.    candle.gif for Laura
jessjgh1 is offline  
#26 of 128 Old 08-20-2006, 02:41 AM
 
mamaverdi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 12,572
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My point was that if one does not know enough about Judaism to know that there are several pretty distinct streams of Judaism, then one is not going to be able to understand the intricacies behind why bris milah would be different among them and why NO it would not fall under maiming or mutilating the body. It would be: Reform bris, Reconstructionist bris, Conservative bris, Orthodox bris...Traditional bris....what have you.

Different streams of Judaism have different ways of seeing each other. And different ways of following (or not following) HaLacha.
mamaverdi is offline  
#27 of 128 Old 08-20-2006, 03:37 AM
 
georgia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: tl;dr
Posts: 25,384
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
But surely if not considered part of the actual ritual it would breach the commandment not to cut or mark the body?
This has already been discussed, in extensive detail, in another recent thread on this very board. Please note that this particular thread was closed due to inappropriate posting and is not indicative of the respectful and considerate treatment that is expected of participants within the Religious Studies forum. At this point in time, IMO, there is no need to rehash this conversation.

Thank you for your understanding and cooperation. Please feel free to PM me, Cynthia Mosher or Ms. Mom if you need further clarification.

I have retired from administration work, so if you have a question about anything MDC-related, please contact Cynthia Mosher. Thanks!
 
georgia is offline  
#28 of 128 Old 08-20-2006, 10:31 AM
 
SaraFR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,671
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Please note that I use caps for emphasis only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jessjgh1
Sara,
Thanks for stressing this. That helps explain things to me a little clearer. I think the problem is that there is enough inconsistency in talking to/hearing about at actual men to wonder if some Jews/Mohels followw a more medical model.
I would imagine that brissim NOT done in the traditional way WOULD be guided by the medical establishment, in some way. In fact, a bris done in the medical way MAY NOT be considered a "kosher" bris according to many of us.

Quote:
I realize, not only might there be differences between Orthodox and other branches, but differences based on regions, and even just the fact that each individual boy is differnt.
I think customs surrounding the bris might differ slightly between regions, such as which prayers are said. I don't think the actual cut would differ that much between different traditional/Orthodox Jews. It's actually an interesting read to see how certain customs developed among different regions as we were seperated from each other in different countries. It's a great read and perhaps someone can post links explaining this, unfortunately it's beyond my ability to go into now. OTOH, we are "sticklers" for maintaining our heritage and laws. It's true that we won't even change the color of our shoe laces if it's being done to "change us". While customs might vary, the basic laws don't. We might have different restricitions added AFTER the laws were given but the laws itself remain unchanged so I would imagine the actual cutting itself is quite similar between different regions Jews that maintain the traditional bris as given down through the ages. I stress the "tradtional" and "Orthodox" bris as they have maintained the tradition. If they are doing it medically and not traditionally then I can't really say that it personifies Jewish law.

Regarding differences you see between individuals, my only guess is that perhaps they are NOT talking about bris as we are talking about it. The majority or the mamas posting here are Orthodox or are at least refering to the traditional/Orthodox method. If another method was used, I can't say how it would look, just that it wouldn't be what we're refering to.

This post was not intended to "judge" others who do differently. I just wanted to point out clearly what we are talking about versus what others are talking about.

Quote:
BTW, Sara, I hope everyone is all in good health for you now. Hugs.

Jessica
Thank G-d, we seem to finally have gotten past that "running 104/105 fever each night" issue. That was so sweet of you to ask. How is your little guy?
SaraFR is offline  
#29 of 128 Old 08-20-2006, 10:34 AM
 
jessjgh1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: South Shore MA
Posts: 4,744
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Mamaverdi, thanks for clarifying(-:

Jessica

Jessica..lady.gifintactlact.gif Falling in love all over again..... 
Dhprivateeyes.gif, Joshua rolleyes.gif Rebeccagrouphug.gifand dog2.gif.    candle.gif for Laura
jessjgh1 is offline  
#30 of 128 Old 08-20-2006, 10:49 AM
 
SaraFR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,671
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessjgh1
Mamaverdi, thanks for clarifying(-:

Jessica
MV, how did you say that so simply and understandably? I spent how many lines in my previous post mumbling trying to figure out how to say just what you did.
SaraFR is offline  
Reply

User Tag List



Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off