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#61 of 105 Old 10-05-2006, 04:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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#62 of 105 Old 10-05-2006, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
 
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This post was left behind on the other thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by merpk
And I repeat, as I've posted before: The fact that many Hebrews/Jews were idol worshippers and were not behaving as the Torah instructs does *not* mean that Judaism/the Hebrew belief system was ever nonmonotheistic.

It just means lots of Jews/Hebrews were behaving badly. By Torah law, that is.
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#63 of 105 Old 10-05-2006, 04:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DaryLLL View Post
Well, I don't know if it's the first thing, but you probably meant that as a figure of speech.
Huh?

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I actually do know that there are hundreds if not thousands of rabbinical disagreements on record. Biblical interpretation is so hard. I don't know how people can decided what is what. And as the world changes the Torah changes. You can see that in the written Torah as is. Newer books reinterpret the older ones. The culture changes from herders to agriculturalists to city dwellers that trade with large empires. Other cultures/ traditions, languages, calendars, science and cosmologies enter into the mix. The theology develops. Can't be helped.
That is just it, The torah doesn't change and there was no "interpretation". There was oral torah, that they were starting to forget. What you wrote has nothing to do with judaism.




I am quite sure I never said I don't study, as I do. Just not the day before a 7 day festival.

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#64 of 105 Old 10-05-2006, 04:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by BelovedBird View Post
Huh?



That is just it, The torah doesn't change and there was no "interpretation". There was oral torah, that they were starting to forget. What you wrote has nothing to do with judaism.
I don't believe this is the case, historically. Mystically, yes. Again, I am not writing about "Judaism" as you may believe in it, per se. And I think that is about the 5th time I have said that. It is becoming tiresome.





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#65 of 105 Old 10-05-2006, 05:05 PM
 
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#66 of 105 Old 10-05-2006, 06:31 PM
 
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Now you are the second person to scold me after I already conceded that point. I am sorry for my mistake. :
i apologize also. I did not see your concession.
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#67 of 105 Old 10-06-2006, 01:17 AM
 
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I'm not casting aspersions on you DaryLLL. I'm posting in the wrong thread! :
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#68 of 105 Old 10-07-2006, 12:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BelovedBird View Post
No. It didn't. The wanting not to be different from the people around them, and to be "modern" and not "backward" caused the creation of the reform movement. The "move" towards a more traditional movement caused the birth of conservativeism.

Thanks for that clarification (jeez, it seems so obvious now) I was always curious as my family is a mix of reform and conservative Jews and I never knew who became which from where. Now it all falls into line.
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#69 of 105 Old 10-09-2006, 11:36 AM
 
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I think I love DaryLLL
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#70 of 105 Old 10-09-2006, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Oh! thanks!
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#71 of 105 Old 10-10-2006, 01:41 AM
 
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I'm fairly abstruse in this forum for pretty good reasons. But I like reading your posts that cut right to the chase and don't mince words or ideas.

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled thread.
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#72 of 105 Old 10-10-2006, 09:19 PM
 
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Like when she says Jesus didn't exist? Or Xianity is Paganism and minor parts of Judaism? or only when she disagrees with the currently practicing Jews?
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#73 of 105 Old 10-10-2006, 10:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DaryLLL View Post
Which Temple? 1st (Solomonic) or second (built by Ezra's contemporaries)? Or 3rd (Greek style Herodian)? Who was learning "Judaism" properly in the "temple" when Asherah stood there and male sacred prostitutes lived there? Who authorized that?
Is there any physical evidence for either of these assertions that there was an image of A' in the Temple more often that not, as I have seen you claim before, or that there were male sacred prostitutes there? I am asking about primary sources or actual physical evidence, not comparative religion theories extrapolating from other Cannanite practices. Please refer me; I am interested.
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#74 of 105 Old 10-10-2006, 10:13 PM
 
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B"Y, you don't know that during BH"M times there was both corruption and A"Z practiced? We were never perfect.

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#75 of 105 Old 10-10-2006, 10:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BelovedBird View Post
B"Y, you don't know that during BH"M times there was both corruption and A"Z practiced? We were never perfect.
Of course I know that. Maybe I need to brush up on my 'Nach, but I was not aware that that bad times outweighed the good, so to speak. I am feeling pretty embarrassed here, because I can't remember exactly where I read this (that there were more "good" years than "bad"). Just to take a quick example (of course this is only going off of Tanach), when the Temple was first built, it was pure then, was it not? I know there were problems with Solomon's many wives and their deities, but I thought that spared the Temple, at least. From a "historic" POV, wouldn't A' being in the Temple (CV"S) be more likely at the beginning than at other times, since the assertion is that monotheism is a more recent development?
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#76 of 105 Old 10-11-2006, 12:34 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mamaverdi View Post
Like when she says Jesus didn't exist? Or Xianity is Paganism and minor parts of Judaism? or only when she disagrees with the currently practicing Jews?
Pretty much when she discusses critical readings and textual history. I have no problem with good historical and textual evidence that runs counter to my beliefs, and I appreciate well-expressed critical thought.

Trust me, I've heard plenty of people say Jesus didn't exist! It's the approach that seeks a common ground through methodology accessible to all sides that I find delightful, not necessarily the conclusions reached. A good historical or textual conclusion is not necessarily true, but it is good mental exercise. Truth cannot be found in argument. If it could, wiser people than I would have found it in argument long ago.

In many ways--such as forms of worship--Christianity *is* paganism with "minor parts of Judaism." In many other ways it is far more. I take no issue with the idea that historical approaches can produce evidence counter to my beliefs.

Please, also, a number of posters on this thread have pointed out the offensiveness of your equation of Orthodox Jews with "currently practicing Jews."
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#77 of 105 Old 10-11-2006, 01:33 AM
 
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Excuse me, please tell me where I state that only Orthodox Jews are "currently practicing Jews"? I consider for instance Rynna, a practicing Jew, though she is not at all Orthodox. Has said so herself. I consider my agnostic friends to be practicing Jews.

I don't consider someone praying to Jesus to be a practicing Jew. Or praying to Allah. Or dancing around a may pole naked or frolicking with the Green Man. I consider them (potentially) fine people, but not practicing Jews.

Practicing Jew to me = people practicing Judaism.
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#78 of 105 Old 10-11-2006, 01:38 AM
 
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Okay, so I've read back through the thread, and I see where I ask DaryLLL if she has ever been a practicing Jew. And I see where she quotes me and says I'm casting aspersions on her...and I see that I respond saying that I posted that post to the wrong thread. In which part of this thead did I say that only Orthodox Jews are currently practing Jews? I'll go read the other threads and see if I said it there.
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#79 of 105 Old 10-11-2006, 07:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by tie-dyed View Post

Please, also, a number of posters on this thread have pointed out the offensiveness of your equation of Orthodox Jews with "currently practicing Jews."
Huh? The only person who I saw do that in any form was Daryl.

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#80 of 105 Old 10-11-2006, 07:05 AM
 
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MV, don't worry, we all can read, we all can back you up, all the jews, who are regular posters, very practicing to no practicing who fit into many lables to no lable who know that YOU never equated practicing with orthodox!

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#81 of 105 Old 10-11-2006, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BinahYeteirah View Post
Of course I know that. Maybe I need to brush up on my 'Nach, but I was not aware that that bad times outweighed the good, so to speak. I am feeling pretty embarrassed here, because I can't remember exactly where I read this (that there were more "good" years than "bad"). Just to take a quick example (of course this is only going off of Tanach), when the Temple was first built, it was pure then, was it not? I know there were problems with Solomon's many wives and their deities, but I thought that spared the Temple, at least. From a "historic" POV, wouldn't A' being in the Temple (CV"S) be more likely at the beginning than at other times, since the assertion is that monotheism is a more recent development?
A good reference for this would be the first chapter of the Patai book The Hebrew Goddess which is concerned with Asherah worship in Israel and Judah.

In the English translation of Tanakh, 1Kings 11 says Solomon built altars to/offered sacrifices to, Milcom, Chemosh, Molech and the goddess of the Sidonians, ie: Asherah (there was confusion between Asherah and Astarte/Ashtoreth). His first wife was Egyptian and he finished her house before the house of the Lord. The storyteller blames his love for his wives for his "abominable" practices. The storyteller also tells us Solomon married these wives when he was old, but knowlege of politics tells us it would've been politically expedient to create foreign alliances early in his political career when he was building his power and needing their armies to protect the borders of his empire. But as the story (written down centuries later) goes, YHWH had warned all the Hebrews not to marry foreign wives for this very reason, and now tells Solomon he will tear the kingdom out of the hand of his son as punishment for it.

Later, it is written the prophet Ahijah did a symbolic act with the cloak of Jereboam, tearing it into 12 pieces and saying YHWH will tear away 10 of them (tribes) from Solomon b/c he worshipped Ashtoreth, Chemosh and Milcom.

Apparently one of Solomon's wives, Maacah, introduced an image of Asherah into the Temple around 900 BCE. Her son Asa removed it. 1Kings 15:9-15.

Much later, in Ezekiel 8, we are told, Ezekiel is brought to the Temple in a vision by God. He sees "the Image of Jealousy" (generally understood to be Asherah). He sees women mourning the god Tammuz, he sees reliefs of "beasts and creeping things" being offered incense by 70 elders, he sees 25 men prostrating themselves to the east and the sun with their backs to the altar of YHWH. This was in the latter days of Solomon's temple, after Josiah's Yahwistic reformation/revolution.

The conclusion is Asherah was worshiped in Israel and Judah for 600 yrs, from 1200 BCE until the time of the Babylonian exile. The final paragraph of section 6 of the Asherah chapter of The Hebrew Goddess shows the math, year by year, king by king. Asherah stood in the Temple for 236 of its 360 years, or approx for 2/3 of the time.
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#82 of 105 Old 10-11-2006, 12:52 PM
 
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Or you could learn jewish history from actual jewish sources.

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#83 of 105 Old 10-11-2006, 09:00 PM
 
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Or you could learn jewish history for actual jewish sources.
Or Soviet history from Soviet sources...
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#84 of 105 Old 10-11-2006, 11:01 PM
 
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Soviet history from soviet sources is fairly interesting, but probably not the best parallel.
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#85 of 105 Old 10-12-2006, 04:27 AM
 
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Am thinking that the obtuseness is purposeful.



Every time you post about how much avodah zarah there was among ancient Hebrews, I (and others) respond with, "Yes, they behaved badly, but Judaism even in ancient times was entirely monotheistic." And you reply with, "There was goddess worship happening so Judaism was not monotheistic."



Judaism is monotheistic. Is, was, and ever will be.
Jews themselves are not always personally monotheistic. Unfortunately, even their kings. And their democratically elected governments.

That doesn't say anything about Judaism itself. It does, however, say very clearly that not all people can read and follow directions.
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#87 of 105 Old 10-12-2006, 05:05 AM
 
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Originally Posted by merpk View Post
It does, however, say very clearly that not all people can read and follow directions.

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#88 of 105 Old 10-12-2006, 07:43 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by merpk View Post
"Yes, they behaved badly, but Judaism even in ancient times was entirely monotheistic." And you reply with, "There was goddess worship happening so Judaism was not monotheistic."
No. I have never said that. You insist on hearing it and I wonder why.
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#89 of 105 Old 10-12-2006, 11:06 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaryLLL

No. I have never said that. You insist on hearing it and I wonder why.


Because you say it bluntly, that's why. If you deny saying it, then you're not reading your own posts before hitting "submit."







In post #2 of this thread you say

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaryLLL
... Yes, I know that is your traditional belief, stemming from rabbinic interpretation and study beginning in the early centuries of the current era. And you are welcome to hold to it.

Is is considered revisionistic however, acc to historical/critical scholars.


And then in post #31

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaryLLL
I think there is confusion here. I do not deny Judaism is monotheistic now and has been for a long time. I do say the BCE Hebrews were usually polytheistic and the definition of when (monotheistic and Jerusalem temple based) "Judaism" actually was fully codified and was widely and uniformly practiced is debatable. You could say it was



And that's just from a quick skim of the "top" of the thread pages.

Right there (post #31) you're saying the Torah-based belief system (and there is only one, and it's what we now call Judaism) was polytheistic. Bluntly.


You could play a semantic game by saying that in post #2 you didn't say it, you merely said that revisionist scholars say it ... but that would be disingenuous, so I'm sure you wouldn't say that. Right?
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#90 of 105 Old 10-12-2006, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I did not say in either of those posts that CE Judaism is not monotheistic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaryLLL
I think there is confusion here. I do not deny Judaism is monotheistic now and has been for a long time. I do say the BCE Hebrews were usually polytheistic and the definition of when (monotheistic and Jerusalem temple based) "Judaism" actually was fully codified and was widely and uniformly practiced is debatable.
I stand by this statement.
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