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#1 of 90 Old 10-11-2006, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Ok bare with me here. I'm Jewish and Ive always been told 2 things:

If you're mother is Jewish, you are Jewish
and
Once a Jew, always a Jew

ok here comes my question. During Jesus's time and after, weren't his followers Jews who became Christians? So wouldn't their descendents till this day be Jewish?

Im very confused!:

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#2 of 90 Old 10-11-2006, 12:59 PM
 
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If somone could find actual documented maternal decent for 2000 years, maybe. But it has never happened. Within one or two generation christianity was no longer a sect of judaism, it became a seperate religion, and the jews and nonjews in christianity mixed. Through the crusades, the inquisition, etc, jews were forced to christianity and/or killed. There have been cases of people from those times discovering their true ancestry, but again, many were lost.

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#3 of 90 Old 10-11-2006, 03:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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What religion were the people who became Christians? (who were not Jews)

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#4 of 90 Old 10-11-2006, 03:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Jokerama View Post
What religion were the people who became Christians? (who were not Jews)
Heathen/ Pagan.

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#5 of 90 Old 10-17-2006, 03:19 PM
 
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Honestly, it doesn't make any sense. A Jew who believes that Rabbi Schnerson is the messiah is a Jew. A Jew who believes that there is no messiah is a Jew. A Jew who doesn't believe in G-d is a Jew. But a Jew who believes that Jesus/Yeshua is the messiah- even if he continues to live a Jewish lifestyle (eating kosher, going to synagogue, keeping the Torah, etc.) and even if he hates/rejects/avoids Christianity is no longer a Jew?

Christianity did not start until a century after Jesus' death. before that it was all Judaism. Christianity has made Jews hate Jesus because of the way they have misconstrued his words, used his name as a battlecry in the Crusades, Inquisitions, etc. and now Christianity has become a safehaven for anti-semitcs. I can see why Jews hate anything connected to Christianity. However, to say that a person who practices Judaism yet believes Yeshua/Jesus is the messiah is not a Jew is ridiculous. And to believe that someone can stop being ethnically a Jew regardless of their beliefs is also ridiculous. Judaism and Jewishness is not about not believing in Jesus- its about genetics and faith in G-d and the preservation of Torah and tradition. Let's get real.

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#6 of 90 Old 10-17-2006, 03:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Jokerama View Post
Ok bare with me here. I'm Jewish and Ive always been told 2 things:

If you're mother is Jewish, you are Jewish
and
Once a Jew, always a Jew

ok here comes my question. During Jesus's time and after, weren't his followers Jews who became Christians? So wouldn't their descendents till this day be Jewish?

Im very confused!:
This is actually a great question about Christianity--not really about Judaism, so much. The early Christians considered themselves Jews. At several key points, they began to dissociate themselves from Jews and to consider Christianity a separate religion. For example, when Paul negated the need for conversion (primarily the need for circumcision) among converts to Christianity, and further, the need for following divine commandments (mitzvot) among the new Christian sect.

The pattern of the two groups separating continued with some other decisions, especially the Council of Nicea that allowed Christians to set the date of Easter independently of Passover.

If they had never separated as religions, then certainly the early Christians would have passed on their identity as Jews. But since they did separate, they aren't.

I think Christianity does have a special status in Jewish thought among the many religions-that-are-not-Judaism, because of this early history of competition for converts and for the right to be the inheritors of Second Temple Judaism.

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A Jew who believes that Rabbi Schnerson is the messiah is a Jew.
Ah, but if such a messianist began to insist that Jews who did NOT believe that the rebbe was the messiah were now shut out of the covenant--then it would be really different, huh? i think in some ways this speaks to learning the historical lesson of the separation of Christianity!

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#7 of 90 Old 10-17-2006, 04:14 PM
 
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Honestly, it doesn't make any sense. A Jew who believes that Rabbi Schnerson is the messiah is a Jew. A Jew who believes that there is no messiah is a Jew. A Jew who doesn't believe in G-d is a Jew. But a Jew who believes that Jesus/Yeshua is the messiah- even if he continues to live a Jewish lifestyle (eating kosher, going to synagogue, keeping the Torah, etc.) and even if he hates/rejects/avoids Christianity is no longer a Jew?
No.

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#8 of 90 Old 10-17-2006, 04:16 PM
 
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Ah, but if such a messianist began to insist that Jews who did NOT believe that the rebbe was the messiah were now shut out of the covenant--then it would be really different, huh?
How about if they believed he was G-d? That would really be different.

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#9 of 90 Old 10-17-2006, 04:17 PM
 
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I can see why Jews hate anything connected to Christianity. However, to say that a person who practices Judaism yet believes Yeshua/Jesus is the messiah is not a Jew is ridiculous. And to believe that someone can stop being ethnically a Jew regardless of their beliefs is also ridiculous.

Kristi
You are the only one who is saying that. Are you arguing yourself? (with a made up set of "facts"? :

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#10 of 90 Old 10-17-2006, 05:45 PM
 
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You are the only one who is saying that. Are you arguing yourself? (with a made up set of "facts"? :
I have Jewish friends who have been told this. One family who happens to be the most kosher and Jewish family I know has been cut off by their family because of it. Even though nothing about their lifestyle or basic beliefs have changed. Even though they do not practice Christianity. Even though they keep Torah and Oral Torah.

Jews don't consider Messianic Jews to be Jewish, however no one has ever been able to give me a good reason why. If jewishness depends on who a person claims to be the Jewish messiah, that should cut off a lot off chasidic Schnerson followers. However, nowhere in any sacred text does the issue of messiahship determine Jewishness.

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#11 of 90 Old 10-17-2006, 05:58 PM
 
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Ah, but if such a messianist began to insist that Jews who did NOT believe that the rebbe was the messiah were now shut out of the covenant--then it would be really different, huh? i think in some ways this speaks to learning the historical lesson of the separation of Christianity!
What are you talking about? The primary factors defining the rift between mainstream Judaism and the Jewish sect who claimed Yeshua as messiah were not centered around exclusivism. The gentiles became more numerous in the sect and brought with them their pagan beliefs and practices. Due to these influences, many Jews rightfully seperated themselves from early-Christianity. However, there were still plenty of Jews who continued on in Judaism yet believed Yeshua was the messiah. Practically, doctrinally and morally that belief changed nothing in day-to-day Jewish life. Over time the intolerance grew as other men were proclaimed messiah. Those who believe Yeshua was messiah began to feel torn over their beliefs and their brothers and sisters who were fighting oppression under the banner of another messiah.

When Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire Jews were forced to convert. Because the Jews who followed Yeshua were already being forced out of synagogues, and because they did not wish to accept the pagan doctrine that had corrupted Christianity beyond repair, they were on their own. Many assimilated and others died.

The short story is this- while plenty of Christians masquarade as Messianic Jews in an effort to trick them into converting to Christianity, it is unfair to assume that all Messianic Jews are that sinister. It's not right to remove legitimate Jews from their own ethnic and religious identity over such a small issue as messiahship. I'm not trying to convert people to anything, nor am I trying to suggest that Jews who do not believe a certain way are "out" of the covenant. On the contrary, I believe that the covenant G-d made with Avraham stands eternal. There was no stipulation for belief in a messiah or lack thereof in that covenant. Therefore, to "kick out" those who believe differently is wrong and against Torah.

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#12 of 90 Old 10-17-2006, 06:30 PM
 
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I have Jewish friends who have been told this. One family who happens to be the most kosher and Jewish family I know has been cut off by their family because of it. Even though nothing about their lifestyle or basic beliefs have changed. Even though they do not practice Christianity. Even though they keep Torah and Oral Torah.

Jews don't consider Messianic Jews to be Jewish, however no one has ever been able to give me a good reason why. If jewishness depends on who a person claims to be the Jewish messiah, that should cut off a lot off chasidic Schnerson followers. However, nowhere in any sacred text does the issue of messiahship determine Jewishness.

Kristi
The Messianic faith is not Judaism, it is Christianity, however if an individual is born a jew they remain a jew. I am sorry you were misinformed.

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#13 of 90 Old 10-17-2006, 06:40 PM
 
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Why are you making this about belief in a moshiach? It isn't. It is about belief in a human "god". Belief in a human being god is not judaism. Very simple.
Your posts have a belligerant argumentative tone. And you are completely wrong.

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#14 of 90 Old 10-17-2006, 07:10 PM
 
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I'm very confused about what you are trying to prove with this thread. A Jew who believes that Jesus is the messiah is still considered to be a Jew by Torah law. However, they are considered to be a Jew who is no longer practicing Judaism. Just as a Jew who converts to any other religion.

So what was your point again?

Oh and just as a side note, after 3 generations of not following Judaism, the decendents of a Jewish woman are not considered automatically Jewish according to Jewish law (it's a bit more complicated than that, but that is the short story). So even IF there were Jews who could trace their roots back to early X-ians with a direct matralinial descent, they would not be viewed as "Jewish" according to Jewish law.
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#15 of 90 Old 10-17-2006, 08:04 PM
 
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I know several Messianics. They were not born Jews. And they did not convert to Judaism. They converted from C'ianity to Messianism. They are not Jews.

I know a born Jew who converted to being Baptist. He is still a Jew, but not practicing Judaism. But as long as he is a Baptist, he has forfeited his Right of Return to Israel. Which is Israeli law, not Jewish law.

How about this: Why Jews Don't Believe in Jesus.
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#16 of 90 Old 10-17-2006, 08:09 PM
 
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The only Messianic I know personally is related by marriage (brother of mom's cousin's DIL), he's definitely a Jew and definitely knows that what he's doing is not Jewish.

There ya' go. How's that for an explanation. He's a Jew, but what he's doing is not Jewish.

And since his wife is not born Jewish, and she's also a Messianic Christian, their children have zip Jewish going on in their lives, so even by the Reform movement's definition (read: the most liberal definition) their children aren't Jewish.

End of the chain, as they say.
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#17 of 90 Old 10-17-2006, 10:13 PM
 
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Why are you making this about belief in a moshiach? It isn't. It is about belief in a human "god". Belief in a human being god is not judaism. Very simple.
Your posts have a belligerant argumentative tone. And you are completely wrong.
You are assuming. I didn't say anything about a human god. Christianity may preach this, but many branches of Messianic Judaism do not. Many Messianics to not believe that Jesus is G-d, but simply the Messiah. So does that mean that the many Jews who believe Yeshua is messiah (not, G-d, but messiah) and continue to practice Judaism are in fact **** a part of Judaism? How can someone become a Christian isf they don't believe anything Christianity teaches or practice anything Christianity practices?

I'm not trying to be beligerent or argumentitive but I don't comprehend this. In my experience Jews have been some of the most gracious, warm and accepting people I've ever met. I can't understand how such a people would cut off their own flesh because of such a slight difference.

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#18 of 90 Old 10-17-2006, 10:14 PM
 
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[QUOTE=mamaverdi;6300908]

I know several Messianics. They were not born Jews. And they did not convert to Judaism. They converted from C'ianity to Messianism. They are not Jews.
QUOTE]

Then those people are Messianic gentiles. I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about Jews.

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#19 of 90 Old 10-17-2006, 10:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm very confused about what you are trying to prove with this thread. A Jew who believes that Jesus is the messiah is still considered to be a Jew by Torah law. However, they are considered to be a Jew who is no longer practicing Judaism. Just as a Jew who converts to any other religion.

So what was your point again?

Oh and just as a side note, after 3 generations of not following Judaism, the decendents of a Jewish woman are not considered automatically Jewish according to Jewish law (it's a bit more complicated than that, but that is the short story). So even IF there were Jews who could trace their roots back to early X-ians with a direct matralinial descent, they would not be viewed as "Jewish" according to Jewish law.

Are you addressing me? (the op)

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#20 of 90 Old 10-17-2006, 10:23 PM
 
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You are assuming.
I am not assuming anything, I am reffering to the facts about the vast majority of "messianics".

I'm sorry that you can't comprehend something that does not exist. Why not ask jews about judaism and jews rather than telling us how it is?

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#21 of 90 Old 10-17-2006, 10:23 PM
 
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I'm very confused about what you are trying to prove with this thread. A Jew who believes that Jesus is the messiah is still considered to be a Jew by Torah law. However, they are considered to be a Jew who is no longer practicing Judaism. Just as a Jew who converts to any other religion.

So what was your point again?
That is my point. For such a complex religion as Judaism you would think the breaking point involves more than simply "Who is the messiah." My point is at what point does a Jew cease being a part of the Jewish religion? What if he maintains all of the traditions, practices, written and oral Torah, beliefs, customs and rituals? Is he still a Jew? Who the messiah is shouldn't affect one's lifestyle. If a person goes and accepts Christian doctrine, begins worshipping Jesus, adopts Christian pratices, beliefs, etc. then he is a Christian. However, many Torah-observant Messianics consider Christianity to be their biggest enemy because of the hatred they have for Torah and Judaism. I guess my confusion surrounds how a Jewish person can be practicing Judaism, believing Judaism and living Judaism yet not be considered a part of Judaism when he has not converted to another religion.

I don't think there is a logical answer. It's just the way it is.

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#22 of 90 Old 10-17-2006, 10:25 PM
 
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Are you addressing me? (the op)
I'm pretty sure she was addressing Mama2B. I'm not sure what you intended this thread to be but M2B seems to be using it for a forum to provclaim what she believes true, that the jews on this thread are saying isn't.

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#23 of 90 Old 10-17-2006, 10:25 PM
 
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I am not assuming anything, I am reffering to the facts about the vast majority of "messianics".

I'm sorry that you can't comprehend something that does not exist. Why not ask jews about judaism and jews rather than telling us how it is?
I'm not telling you anything. I'm letting you know what I've seen. My question has been plainly posted throughout. If you can't or won't answer it that's fine.

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I'm pretty sure she was addressing Mama2B. I'm not sure what you intended this thread to be but M2B seems to be using it for a forum to provclaim what she believes true, that the jews on this thread are saying isn't.
What?

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#25 of 90 Old 10-17-2006, 10:26 PM
 
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I don't think there is a logical answer. It's just the way it is.
There may just not be a logical answer to a question that doesn't exist. This is true.

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#26 of 90 Old 10-17-2006, 10:27 PM
 
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There may just not be a logical answer to a question that doesn't exist. This is true.
How does a question not exist when I have posed it many times? Riiiight...

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#27 of 90 Old 10-17-2006, 10:29 PM
 
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I'm not telling you anything. I'm letting you know what I've seen. My question has been plainly posted throughout. If you can't or won't answer it that's fine.

Kristi
You are letting us know that you've seen what?

That one family "rejected" their child for their beliefs? So?? How is that about judaism as a whole?

You made the statement repeatedly as to who is considered a jew. And you were wrong. That has nothing to do with what you've seen.

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#28 of 90 Old 10-17-2006, 10:31 PM
 
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How does a question not exist when I have posed it many times? Riiiight...
I could post that Paganism supports murder and ask incessantly "how can that be, I thought pagans loved the earth and respected all beings, how can they support murder?" It would be a question *I* was asking but not a question that really existed in regard to pagans.

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#29 of 90 Old 10-17-2006, 10:34 PM
 
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How many times do the jews on this thread have to write that individual jews remain jews?

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Messianic Jews are denied return to Israel and are being persecuted by other Jews in Israel. I'm not making generalizations. This is happening. I'm not accusing Judaism as a whole of this, but its in enough places that its obviously not a big secret. In fact, everyone in this room has simply reaffirmed it. I'm sorry that these questions are irritating to you, but I was curious so I thought I'd ask.

Kristi

Kristi wife to Mal , mom to Ziva (4/07) (3/08) Aliyah (1/09) and somebody new (edd 11/10). I
~~Mama2B~~ is offline  
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