Today's Doonesbury re: Dubya and Evolution - Mothering Forums

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Old 04-20-2003, 07:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Okay, first off, I'll admit that it's sad that I get news from the comics section ...

Was anyone else shocked to discover that George W. Bush, "leader of the free world," doesn't believe in evolution?!

I thought Trudeau handled it well, explaining that "rejecting evolution requires him to repudiate the core tenets of entire fields of study such as biochemistry, genetics, ecology, paleontology, anatomy, physics, astronomy, geology, cosmology, history and archaeology!"

So ... is anyone else as appalled as I am? Maybe more interestingly, is anyone NOT appalled at this?
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Old 04-20-2003, 08:29 PM
 
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I read the strip in question, I have to admit I am not surprised.

I am apalled that he is the President, I am apalled that he stole the election, I am apalled that he has shown some willingness to push Prodestant Cristianity on all of us.

I am not all that apalled that he doesn't belive the theory of evolution as long as he keeps this in his heart and doesn't attempt to push it on all of us. His relashionship with his g-d is not my concearn...

My answer would be the same whatever creation myth was being taken literally by the way.
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Old 04-21-2003, 03:09 AM
 
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Ya know, I had seen this hinted at in other articles, but this was the first time I'd ever seen anyone straight out say it.

Man o man... I keep wondering how this whole period will look in the history books in 50 years.
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Old 04-21-2003, 04:49 PM
 
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Not surprised at all. Just another piece of a lousy puzzle IMO. Fits in with the rest of his actions on the environment.

"What will you do once you know?"
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Old 04-21-2003, 05:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nursing Mother
Most believed in a "god" or "creator".

I don't think it's the same -- I believe in a god/creator, but that doesn't mean I buy the Adam & Eve myth as literal truth, or any other religion's creation myths, either!

Belief in evolution doesn't make one an atheist. And believe in a creator/god doesn't disallow belief of evolution, either.
But if you truly don't believe in evolution, then that really does poke a BIG hole in so many other modern sciences, like the cartoon said! Yipes.
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Old 04-21-2003, 05:31 PM
 
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...he also plugs his ears and hums while the rest of us try to discuss global warming...
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Old 04-21-2003, 09:59 PM
 
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Just thought I'd throw this into the pot. It is very possible that Joe Liberman doesn't believe in evolution either. He is an Orthodox Jew and evolution doesn't totally jive with our theology either. Does that effect how you feel about him?

(sign me, Not a Bushie, just a devil's advocate)
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Old 04-21-2003, 11:07 PM
 
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.
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Old 04-22-2003, 02:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by UmmNuh
...he also plugs his ears and hums while the rest of us try to discuss global warming...
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Old 04-22-2003, 10:14 AM
 
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Now, Mom2five, I have to put in my own little disclaimer. I am not 100% convinced that anyone knows the story of evolution/creation...and my beliefs lie somewhere in the middle. There are actually many scientists who support a middle view. It's just clear that the science is not all in.

But I can say with relative confidence that I think the earth is significantly older than 10,000 years.
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Old 04-22-2003, 10:37 AM
 
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You know I saw that Doonsbury and it made me think. I guess like sapsygo - I always saw it hinted but never actually stated. I guess what dusturbs me is the strong ectremist Christian bent to the man. Every president has been religious but very few have had such a narrow view of the world as Mr. Bush.
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Old 04-22-2003, 10:41 AM
 
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Mom2five:Mr. Leiberman is pretty decent senator and actually has served for some time for CT. He has a long track record in politics, although for clarity's sake I think he probably will have to give out some details about his religious beleifs- esp. in regards to evolution. OTH I haven't seen him pushing his religious agenda on anyone either. Like any intelligent person should living in a diverse country, he appears to have some tolerance.
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Old 04-23-2003, 02:21 PM
 
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To the best of my knowledge Mr Leiberman isn't supposed to push his beleif's on others.

I also think that Shrubby's apparent lack of concearn for the enviroment comes from his great regard for and debt to the petroleum industry. I think this is why he appears deaf to the messages of planetary stewardship that is emerging in many "conservative" denominations.

Finally, while I believe the theory of evolution is more likely to be accurate, I also believe that
Something set this all in motion.
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Old 04-25-2003, 02:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by AutumnMoonfire
To the best of my knowledge Mr Leiberman isn't supposed to push his beleif's on others..
Hmmm - Bush has a lot of support within the Orthodox Jewish community and he hasn't seemed to try to push his beliefs here.
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Old 04-25-2003, 02:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by 3boys4us
Mom2five:Mr. Leiberman is pretty decent senator and actually has served for some time for CT. He has a long track record in politics, although for clarity's sake I think he probably will have to give out some details about his religious beleifs- esp. in regards to evolution. OTH I haven't seen him pushing his religious agenda on anyone either. Like any intelligent person should living in a diverse country, he appears to have some tolerance.
I think Leiberman has to clarify only how his religious observance would jive with being head of state (like would his sabbath observance keep him from attending to needs of state), *not* whether the man believes in evolution or not! As Orthodox Jews don't believe that those of other faiths have to believe as they do (a basic "live and let live" philosophy), I can't see how his personal beliefs could be remotely relevant.
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Old 04-25-2003, 03:05 PM
 
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I am appalled at a LOT regarding George W. Bush, but his opinion about evolution is not one of them.

I don't believe in evolution, at least not on a large scale (Micro-evolution is obvious but macro-evolution is only a theory.) I think I take a middle ground stance like UmmNuh.

But even without believing in evolution I am still very concerned about our environment and environmental issues. I guess I don't see the connection. :
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Old 04-27-2003, 01:18 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mom2five
Just thought I'd throw this into the pot. It is very possible that Joe Liberman doesn't believe in evolution either. He is an Orthodox Jew and evolution doesn't totally jive with our theology either. Does that effect how you feel about him?

(sign me, Not a Bushie, just a devil's advocate)
Well, now, doesn't totally "dis-gibe" with it, either.

R' Kook made the very solid point that the Torah isn't a science book.

And there are many people who are very, very Orthodox who believe in a kind of quasi combination of evolution fitting into the Creation.

As an example and only vague explanation ... do you think G-d really has a timepiece and 24-hour days?

Is that off-topic? I don't know. Sorry 'bout that.

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Old 04-27-2003, 02:48 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by amyrpk
Well, now, doesn't totally "dis-gibe" with it, either.

R' Kook made the very solid point that the Torah isn't a science book.

And there are many people who are very, very Orthodox who believe in a kind of quasi combination of evolution fitting into the Creation.
:
And I would count myself amongst that number. I was only trying to make a point that I think there is probably a double standard here!

While we are OT on this point, I used to work with the MIT physisist that wrote the book Genesis and the Big Bang (he's Orthodox). I haven't read the book, but talking with him personally, he brings up the fact that in addition to the whole "what is a 24 hour day when you are talking about G-d and not about life on Earth" but also rabbinic literature that indicate that there were sentient beings on Earth before Adam and Eve (a reference to them having Grandparents in midrashim). It also says that G-d was creating and destroying worlds until Adam and Eve were created and there are some that understand as meaning that Adam and Eve were the beginning of modern written history.

Then again, if you are Orthodox I'm sure you know people who take Genesis very literally and that the world is 5763 years old. I suspect that should this be what ol' Joe believes it wouldn't make the pages of Doonesbury!
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Old 04-27-2003, 09:22 AM - Thread Starter
 
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First, tolerance. As someone said here, everyone's personal beliefs in diety (or no diety) are their own, and valid for them, and perfectly inarguable. I don't deny Bush, the man, his right to believe whatever he believes.

I don't get the feeling he extends the same tolerance to me, though. And I don't appreciate that, particularly in someone who is supposed to represent my opinion in the world. (I won't get into "stealing the election," though I'm tempted.)

Second, and it's kind of the other side of the coin, I REALLY don't approve of nor appreciate someone in political power, someone (supposedly) elected "of the people, by the people, for the people" using that power to go beyond proselytizing toward enforcing a particular religious/spiritual path. Seems to me that we haven't come so close to trouncing on the separation of church and state for decades, if not longer!

As for the length of God's days, and fitting evolution into the Adam/Eve myth, I'm not arguing that point, either. I think that's the appropriate way to think about this or any other myth: reconsidering MY definitions and preconceptions (about "day" for example) and what the myth might be saying behind the literal words ... remembering that LOTS of things can get lost in translation, between languages as well as within one's own language! (Ever play the telephone game?)
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Old 04-27-2003, 11:37 AM
 
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And there are many people who are very, very Orthodox who believe in a kind of quasi combination of evolution fitting into the Creation.
Some people call it "intelligent design," the middle road thought...

And as for the timepiece and the 24-hour days, I think that is on topic. I have family who has placed firm faith in this, and around this faith are many behaviors built. Kind of like the "dominion" conversation in that other thread. Regardless of what the better translation for Genesis might have said, some people take "dominion" to mean "beat into submission." And they take 6 days to mean...6 days, like we experience them now, period.

Wish I had more time to put the two together. Of course, as we learned in that other thread, there are people with gentler, tolerant mindsets...I just don't think they occupy the White House right now.
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Old 08-05-2005, 09:00 PM
 
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I do find it scary, creepy and downright apalling. The fossil record clearly shows the Earth is millions of years old and that lifeforms do evolve. This is truth and I want my kids to learn the truth, not somebody's faith about the truth.
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Old 08-08-2005, 07:56 PM
 
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I'm not at all suprised. Unfortunately, many people are misinformed. Please follow this link
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/
and go to "misconceptions".
I'm a Biology teacher and use this website (along with many others) to help the understanding of evolution.
Evolution isn't something you "believe" in or not. Do you "believe" in gravity? Both are theories supported by scientific evidence. All scientific theories are working theories and are revised as we find out more about our natural world. Newton's Laws and Einstein's Theory of Relativity are being challenged by String Theory (see Brian Greene's work, The Elegant Universe or The Fabric of the Cosmos: Space, Time and the Texture of Reality). That isn't to say gravity, relativity, the speed of light or inertia aren't still good theories with ample scientific evidence. There is a place for ID theory - just not in a science class because it just isn't science-it's a belief or philosophy.
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Old 08-08-2005, 08:01 PM
 
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dfoy,

Did you read the letter to the Kansas Board of Ed about Flying Spaghetti Monsters? http://www.venganza.org Enjoy

Jennifer, Naturopath and mom

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Old 08-09-2005, 11:02 AM
 
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Thanks for the laugh, bluets. The link has been mailed to my colleagues and friends. :LOL
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Old 08-09-2005, 11:33 AM
 
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Why dig up such an old thread?

anyway, this topic would better be discussed in a different forum so I'm moving it to Religious Studies
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Old 08-27-2005, 05:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnaReilly

I don't believe in evolution, at least not on a large scale (Micro-evolution is obvious but macro-evolution is only a theory.) I think I take a middle ground stance like UmmNuh.
micro and macro-evolution are both theories. Obviousness doesn't have anything to do with a theory's "truth".
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Old 08-27-2005, 05:41 PM
 
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Uh...let me point out the amazingly obvious:

The American republic = founded 1776
Publication of Darwin's On the Origin of Species = 1859

Of course they didn't believe in evolution.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nursing Mother
Why so appalled luci? Proabably more then half of all our combined Presidents didn't believe in evolution. Take a peek at our founding fathers? Most believed in a "god" or "creator".

For some it actually takes more faith to believe in evolution (since it hasn't totally been proved) as it does to believe in creation.
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Old 08-28-2005, 08:09 PM
 
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Okay, here's something just as obvious to those with a grasp of the history of science:

Evolution was a theory running around well before Darwin published. It's mentioned in some of his grandfather's poetry. What C Darwin came up with was a theory for the mechanism of evolution: natural selection.

Anyone who comes up with "Evolution is JUST A THEORY" hasn't taken a biology class in the last ten years, at least not a good one at a university... it's the main underpinning of all the biological sciences. It's quite as solid a theory as those in other scientific disciplines. Meaning that it is subject to revision as it is better understood, but the basic idea is probably not going to be dislodged, short of a theocracy voting it out.

Nothing in science has anything to say about religion. You can accept it as it is and still believe in a Creator--or not. Because nothing about the theory of evolution points to there being a creator, also nothing points to there not being one. Plenty of evidence is built up for how natural selection works. Micro-evolution and macro-evolution are different only in the matter of time scale. One is an accumulation of the other.

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Old 08-31-2005, 02:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucimomster
Okay, first off, I'll admit that it's sad that I get news from the comics section ...

Was anyone else shocked to discover that George W. Bush, "leader of the free world," doesn't believe in evolution?!

I thought Trudeau handled it well, explaining that "rejecting evolution requires him to repudiate the core tenets of entire fields of study such as biochemistry, genetics, ecology, paleontology, anatomy, physics, astronomy, geology, cosmology, history and archaeology!"

So ... is anyone else as appalled as I am? Maybe more interestingly, is anyone NOT appalled at this?
Yes, people don't seem to understand that when they reject evolution, they had better throw their watches away because they reject the entire timekeeping system as well.

It is a huge pet peeve of mine when people discuss whether they "believe in" evolution, as if discussing the Lochness monster.

Evolution is a scientific theory. You don't "believe in it", you either agree that it has satisfactorily explained what it set out to, or you don't.

Unfortunately, most people don't even understand what the theory of evolution is, much less have the knowledge to reject it. They just know they don't like the idea of it.

Despite the fact that evolution has nothing to do with, nor makes any claims regarding, the creation of the universe and the creation of life.
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