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Old 11-10-2006, 05:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Ok, historians are pretty sure Jesus was born in the spring. The holiday was stolen from the pagans. (If you are unaware of these things, please start a new thread to ask or do some research).

What I want to know is, does this make Christmas a lie? Lots of parents here don't do Santa because they think he's a lie. And I do realize Jesus is real, but Dec. 25 is not his birthday. As a child I remember celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ as though it was truely his birth day on Christmas- words to that effect are in tons of Christmas Carols.... now as an adult I feel rather confused.

I'm more than a little unsure of my faith right now, and trying to sort out Christmas.

Thoughts??

TIA,

Laura, Mama to Mya 7/02, Ian 6/07 and Anna 8/09
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Old 11-10-2006, 06:17 PM
 
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although i don't believe Christmas is *really* when Christ was born it is when we, and the rest of the Christian world, *observe* his birth. Christmas is an observation of Christ rather than an actual factual birthday, IMO. so i think the *idea* of Christmas is not a lie, just misplaced on the calendar.

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Old 11-10-2006, 06:20 PM
 
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I would say that as long as the speaker is saying that "Christmas when the birth of Jesus is celebrated," rather than "Christmas is when Jesus was born" or "Christmas is Jesus's birthday", that there is no lie.

Historical accuracy may be up for debate, but that's another discussion.

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Old 11-10-2006, 06:31 PM
 
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What Meiri said.

I think saying "Jesus was born on December 25th so that's why we have Christmas." is not accurate. But saying "Christmas is when we recognize and celebrate Jesus's birth." is totally true.

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Old 11-10-2006, 06:55 PM
 
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yeah what they said. i don't knwo of anyone who believes he was born on Dec. 25th. i think saying it is his "Birthday" gives children a point of reference. As a child i thought jesus was reborn and rekilled every year. it was confusing. If someone had said "no. like a birthday party" i would have understood. each year we celebrate his birth. easy enough.

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Old 11-10-2006, 08:01 PM
 
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Here is a factual article about Christmas and the origins of it's practices:
http://www.eaec.org/bibleanswers/chr..._christmas.htm
I believe that Christians should be aware of the origins of the holiday and that they should pray about it and that their decision of whether to celebrate Christmas or not should be based upon what the Lord leads them to do.
Although Christmas is not scriputral and has pagan origins and the symbols of the season are pagan in origin, most Christians are not aware of that and they are not celebrating it as a pagan holiday.
However, the holiday is worldly and waaay overly commercialized and for many people is more about gifts and decorating or even just more about spending time with family and friends than it is about Christ.

I think each individual should go to the Lord in prayer about whether they should celebrate Christmas. If they feel ok with the Lord about it, then that is ok. If they feel that it is not something they should do, then they should not.
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Old 11-10-2006, 08:08 PM
 
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that to Meiri also
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Old 11-11-2006, 01:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Meiri View Post
I would say that as long as the speaker is saying that "Christmas when the birth of Jesus is celebrated," rather than "Christmas is when Jesus was born" or "Christmas is Jesus's birthday", that there is no lie.

Historical accuracy may be up for debate, but that's another discussion.
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Old 11-11-2006, 03:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by christianmomof3 View Post
Here is a factual article about Christmas and the origins of it's practices:
http://www.eaec.org/bibleanswers/chr..._christmas.htm
I believe that Christians should be aware of the origins of the holiday and that they should pray about it and that their decision of whether to celebrate Christmas or not should be based upon what the Lord leads them to do.
Although Christmas is not scriputral and has pagan origins and the symbols of the season are pagan in origin, most Christians are not aware of that and they are not celebrating it as a pagan holiday.
However, the holiday is worldly and waaay overly commercialized and for many people is more about gifts and decorating or even just more about spending time with family and friends than it is about Christ.

I think each individual should go to the Lord in prayer about whether they should celebrate Christmas. If they feel ok with the Lord about it, then that is ok. If they feel that it is not something they should do, then they should not.

This is how I feel. I was also raised in the Lord's Recovery, and as a family we never celebrated Christmas at all. I felt really left out as a teenager since having my own family, I do celebrate Christmas, for them, but it is starting to conflict with my beliefs a little bit, since Christmas does have Pagan orginins, nothing against Pagans, it's just not my beliefs.

Bethany, crunchy Christian mom to Destiny (11) Deanna (9), and Ethan (2)

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Old 11-11-2006, 05:28 PM
 
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I came here to post something similar but not exact because I am a bit wearied by uneducated Christians saying that Pagans "stole" their holiday when it was indeed the OTHER way around. I am of the mind that you do what you want how you want. I am tired of the BS really. If you wanna play the "game" of Santa Claus go for it. If you wanna say it's Christs b-day go for it. If you wanna Celebrate winter solstice do it. I am tired of fighting the under-informed. Some things really are merely a choice that you have to make for your home. If you want to observe Jesus' birthday then say that. If you believe it is the "actual" day knock yourself out. Just don't put your crap on somebody else. Inform them? Definitely. Shove it down their throat with a load of egg nogg. NOWAY. (Sorry bit of a rant)
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Old 11-11-2006, 07:09 PM
 
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My dad being a Church history buff, I knew early on that December 25 wasn't the actual date of Christ's birth. But I also learned why the Church decided to use that date, and why some of the symbolism even if it has pagan origins, was used to symbolize Christian concepts as well.

To me, the symbolism of the dates fits well with the celebration (light coming to a dark world), the same way Easter's date does (spring, new life, resurrection, etc).

It would only be a lie if we said "December 25 is the *exact* date of Jesus birth and we know it for a fact!". That would be pretty ridiculous. ETA: my husband was born 30 some years ago and he doesn't know the exact date of his birth, having been born in a culture where birth records are still not widely kept, even to this day. Most people guage their age by some historic even that was written down. It would be totally unreasonable to claim that there is a specific, known date for the birth of Jesus Christ, born some 2,000 years ago in a culture who's teeming masses probably didn't pay a whole lot of attention to specific birth dates.



Quote:
I came here to post something similar but not exact because I am a bit wearied by uneducated Christians saying that Pagans "stole" their holiday when it was indeed the OTHER way around.
Really? I have, never, ever heard that one before. : Even travelling in ultra-conservative circles. I know lots who say we shouldn't celebrate it because of it's pagan origins, but someone saying the date itself was originally Christian is a new one to me! Wow. Strange.
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Old 11-11-2006, 07:25 PM
 
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does this make Christmas a lie?
Well, I have read on the board how Christmas just means a whole lot of different things for different people, not necessarily a Christian holiday. But I do agree with others that if you are touting xmas as the birth of christ, yeah, its a lie. And I will be with the unpopular minority that even just celebrating his birth-though not his birthday *for me personally*, makes it still a lie. I dont know a lot of people who celebrate their own birthdays several months away from their real one, yk?
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Old 11-11-2006, 07:33 PM
 
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cappuccinosmom Yeah, this one lady made a HUGe speech about Christmas being stolen by Satan and his tool was Santa (Satan) Claus (Claws). And it was Satan's Claws that ensnare us into forgetting the "true" meaning of Christmas. The whole thing was really sickening and ANNOYING.

I grew up in a legalistic small town area. I don't think there were any pagans that lived there even. I didn't meet my first pagan friends until I was like 21 or 22.
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Old 11-11-2006, 07:54 PM
 
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Was the Santa reference specific to pagans? Because I don't see Santa as a pagan, myself, although I could be wrong.

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Old 11-11-2006, 07:57 PM
 
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Oh, that Santa/Satan thing is so goofy. Some people have no grasp of language. (Maybe they don't want to know the truth--it doesn't take much reading to know that Santa means "saint" and "claus" is short for Nicklaus and that there was a real, holy man that inspired the jolly elf we have today)

*shrug* I think sometimes people talk just to hear their own voices.
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Old 11-11-2006, 08:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by afishwithabike View Post
Just don't put your crap on somebody else. Inform them? Definitely. Shove it down their throat with a load of egg nogg. NOWAY. (Sorry bit of a rant)
Egg nog? Did someone say eggnog? Mmmmmm... :nana:
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Old 11-11-2006, 08:26 PM
 
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This is how I feel. I was also raised in the Lord's Recovery, and as a family we never celebrated Christmas at all. I felt really left out as a teenager since having my own family, I do celebrate Christmas, for them, but it is starting to conflict with my beliefs a little bit, since Christmas does have Pagan orginins, nothing against Pagans, it's just not my beliefs.
I understand feeling left out because your family does not celebrate Christmas. I was raised Jewish and always wanted a Christmas tree. One year my mom did a Chanukkah bush.
We did Santa and the Easter Bunny though.
I don't do Santa (Satan Claws that is funny) or the Easter Bunny nor celebrate Christmas or Easter with our children.
We teach them to appreciate the incarnation, sinless human living, and all inclusive death and resurrection of the Lord every day.
They went to Christian preschools (youngest dd is still in one) and they do the holiday stuff there. That is ok with me.
Our family celebrates Chanukkah with the rest of my family who are still Jewish, so my children get to learn about their Jewish heritage and they still have a winter holiday and gifts so they don't feel too left out - at least no more than I did. My oldest dd has been collecting holiday lights over the years and last year strung them down the stairs and in her bedroom.
She is 13. She never wanted a tree - just the lights. Her b-day is at the end of Dec. and when she was little, she thought all the lights on everyones houses was for her birthday.
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Old 11-11-2006, 08:38 PM
 
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although i don't believe Christmas is *really* when Christ was born it is when we, and the rest of the Christian world, *observe* his birth. Christmas is an observation of Christ rather than an actual factual birthday, IMO. so i think the *idea* of Christmas is not a lie, just misplaced on the calendar.
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Old 11-11-2006, 08:49 PM
 
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I haven't read all of the references on it, but here is an interesting website I found: http://www.geocities.com/cmeggers/Christmas.html

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Old 11-11-2006, 09:02 PM
 
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re: santa being pagan, I believe part of today's current image of Santa is linked to the Celtic Holly King, who is pagan. But of course there's also the "saint" part.
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Old 11-11-2006, 09:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by afishwithabike View Post
I came here to post something similar but not exact because I am a bit wearied by uneducated Christians saying that Pagans "stole" their holiday when it was indeed the OTHER way around. I am of the mind that you do what you want how you want. I am tired of the BS really. If you wanna play the "game" of Santa Claus go for it. If you wanna say it's Christs b-day go for it. If you wanna Celebrate winter solstice do it. I am tired of fighting the under-informed. Some things really are merely a choice that you have to make for your home. If you want to observe Jesus' birthday then say that. If you believe it is the "actual" day knock yourself out. Just don't put your crap on somebody else. Inform them? Definitely. Shove it down their throat with a load of egg nogg. NOWAY. (Sorry bit of a rant)


Pagans stole xmas?

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Old 11-11-2006, 09:19 PM
 
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i'm a pagan, but i was brought up observing Christmas, (and Santa) and my opinion is that you should observe, celebrate, honor, whatever you feel is right. it is the observation of the thing that matters. and as far as Santa goes, he is Saint Nicholas, and the whole "santa" thing is more about giving and being good than anything else. just my 2 cents! lol.
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Old 11-11-2006, 09:21 PM
 
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oh, and the pagans celebrated yule (winter sostice, the shortest day of the year) before Jesus was born. the early Christians decided to change the observation days to coincide with the other religions' celebrations becuase it would be easier to convert them. Pagans didn't steal Christmas...it was the other way around, lol.
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Old 11-11-2006, 09:37 PM
 
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There's kind of an interesting article about the roots of Christmas in this article from a Catholic encyclopedia:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm

I think it's interesting to note that Christmas wasn't really celebrated until the fourth century, and even then, it wasn't one of the more important Christian holidays. It goes on to say that in England in 1644, Christmas was even forbidden by an act of parliment (obviously this didn't last). It also includes information about the pagan roots of some of the celebrations, for those who are interested.

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Old 11-12-2006, 12:42 AM
 
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Christmas was also banned in parts of the US in earlier centuries. Fortunately that didn't last here either.

As far as I know, "The Holly King" is a modern Wiccan concept. The Celts had specific names for their Gods, and I've never read Holly King as being one of them. Nothing wrong with the concept, just that it's not ancient.

Santa Claus came from Saint Nicolas, but I think when Nash and others in America created the current image, they did, whether consciously or not, draw on Pagan imagery.

"What will you do once you know?"
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Old 11-12-2006, 12:52 AM
 
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I am not Christian. From my view though it would seem that a Christian celebrating Christmas on Dec 24/25th is a lie, even if it's just a form of a white lie. To some Christians white lies are equally a sin as regular lies.
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Old 11-12-2006, 09:53 AM
 
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Meiri, you've inspired me to start a new thread about the Holly King
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Old 11-12-2006, 10:21 AM
 
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For years a priest at my childhood Catholic Church gave the same sermon for Christmas Masses about how Jesus was probably actually born in April and we celebrate Christmas near the time of the Winter Solistice because of the Roman Festival of Lights (basically pagan converts liked the celebration and wanted to continue it in some form). I don't see it as a lie. I see it as a practical move on the early Church's part as well as an expression of need to celebrate the coming of light into darkness. For Christians, Jesus is the Light. I actually find it a beautiful way that all religions are expressing deep, similar truths.
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Old 11-12-2006, 10:30 AM
 
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I was raised an evangelical Christian, and we always knew that Christmas was merely a date chosen to celebrate his birth -- that he was really born in the spring.

P.S. I didn't discover the pagan connection until college -- most conservative Christians I know either don't know about or cover up this aspect of many supposedly Christian traditions.
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Old 11-13-2006, 02:59 AM
 
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Quote:
the pagans celebrated yule (winter sostice, the shortest day of the year) before Jesus was born
Well technically that isn't true. There are no historical "the" pagans. There were/are seperate cultural polytheist religions in Europe but not all of them celebrated Solstice. The Romans were the ones that celebrated Saturnalia at that time of year and it's the closest to being a solstice type holiday. The Germanics celebrated Jul/Yule but it wasn't a solstice astronomical holiday tied to the shortest day of the year.
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