Circumcisions.... - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 28 Old 12-09-2006, 10:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Ok, I have a completely honest question here. I am not here to argue about circing or anything....this question just popped in my head and I am purely curious about it:. I dont know that I can post this in the CAC forum either so...
Does anyone know anyone IRL who was circumcised because of their religion (Muslim/Jewish is what I am thinking of) that is upset about it or angry? I have a very close Jewish friend and I go with her to holiday events sometimes. A lot of them are really fun to participate in and my kids loved at least one of them (and I am really sorry, but I cant remember what it was called! Just that all the kids went and had a blast). Anyway, off topic, lol. Anyway, I know her family very well and at these events, I have met quite a few active Jewish families and while many have agreed with me that they dont agree with non-religious circing, none of them have been upset about being circumcised themselves.
Also, how do you feel about those who say that they are circing for religious reasons (ok, mainly thinking about Jews here, just cause I dont know what the rules are for Muslims), but have it done in a hospital on the wrong day by a doctor? I only ask cause my friends sister said she was doing it because she is Jewish but then she had it done when the baby was less than a day old, in the hospital, by her OB. Doesnt it not even count then?!? Thank you for entertaining my questions

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#2 of 28 Old 12-09-2006, 11:25 PM
 
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Gentle reminder as this thread progresses: MDC does not support or condemn religious circumcision. The practice can be discussed but posts that make negative generalizations about (any) faith traditions will be removed.

MDC will *not* host threads advocating for RIC/RMC (Routine Infant/Medical Circumcision.)

Please keep the UA in mind, and the RS guidelines, and be respectful of others as you post. Thanks!

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#3 of 28 Old 12-09-2006, 11:43 PM
 
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My best friend is jewish, as is her husband, and while I wouldn't say that he is terribly upset about being circed I know that they are not planning on circing any sons they may have. She was at ds's birth and has heard my many times talking at length about my feelings on circing. They have even discussed it with their Rabbi that also felt that whether a boy participated in a bris milah or not did not determine whether he was jewish.

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#4 of 28 Old 12-10-2006, 12:38 AM
 
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Yes I do have someone I am close to that is angry that they were circed for religious reasons, and that is all I will say on the matter.
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#5 of 28 Old 12-10-2006, 12:42 AM
 
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Also, how do you feel about those who say that they are circing for religious reasons (ok, mainly thinking about Jews here, just cause I dont know what the rules are for Muslims), but have it done in a hospital on the wrong day by a doctor? I only ask cause my friends sister said she was doing it because she is Jewish but then she had it done when the baby was less than a day old, in the hospital, by her OB. Doesnt it not even count then?!?
regarding this situation, it is not a Brit Milah, period. It does not meet the requirements of one and is not accepted as one by most rabbis. The prayers are what make it a Bris, without them it;s just a circ.
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#6 of 28 Old 12-10-2006, 01:15 AM
 
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It's not just the prayers; any "bris" before 8 days of age is not valid.
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#7 of 28 Old 12-10-2006, 06:53 AM
 
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Yes, I do know IRL quite a few men who were circumcised without their consent as babies by their Jewish parents who are very very angry and upset about that indeed. Meeting them at the Symposium in Seattle was amazing for me, to hear their stories and see what courageous and dedicated Intactivists they have become.




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#8 of 28 Old 12-10-2006, 07:32 AM
 
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their Rabbi that also felt that whether a boy participated in a bris milah or not did not determine whether he was jewish.

Their rabbi felt that because Jewish law says that. A child is not "made Jewish" by a brit milah.
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#9 of 28 Old 12-10-2006, 08:48 AM
 
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*Raising my hand* - I know. Both men and women who were circumcised due to religious reason. I used to work with refugees. I also met a jewish older jewish man who had a botched circ in Israel and who did not circumcised his sons - otherwise their sons were raised as jewish. (they had to use artificial insemination because he could not do it 'normal way'). This man is actually one of the reasons I started to look deeper in circumcision.

As far as the other people I have met, they have been mostly muslims. Especially well in my mind is the words of one man from Palestine; ' I remember the day I was circumcised. It was the most horrible day of my life'. He also stated that he was not going to circumcise his possible future sons and that he was happy that he was now living in country were circ is not practised. He said that if he still lived in Palestine he would have to circ his children due to the pressure of the community - he and his family would be shunned totally if he did not. It was a very interesting discussion in general, we talked a lot about other things too. Learned a lot during that day.

Ofcourse I don't know any Finns who would be angry since circ is not practised here.
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#10 of 28 Old 12-11-2006, 01:17 AM
 
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I would also say that it's not just the prayers and the eighth day that makes it a kosher bris. It also needs to be done a certain way to be kosher. The way doctors do it doesn't qualify. I am intentionally leaving out details.

This is actually the opposite of the original question but I will add this information. Dh is from the former Soviet Union so we know many others from there as well. I know many men who were unable to have a bris done as they were born under communist rule (in the former Soviet Union). They are now taking upon themselves this mitzva. (Dh actually accompanied a 69 year old man who wanted to finally fulfill the mitzva of bris mila.)
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#11 of 28 Old 12-11-2006, 12:19 PM
 
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Does anyone know anyone IRL who was circumcised because of their religion (Muslim/Jewish is what I am thinking of) that is upset about it or angry?
Yes. I know a Jewish man who is extremely upset about being circ'd - he is only culturally Jewish, not religious, and he's also vegan and thinks that all creatures should have control over their own bodies.
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#12 of 28 Old 12-12-2006, 11:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thank you for all the replies. Once I thought back I realised that my friend also had her sons "bris's" done at the hospital by her OB. I know he is Jewish, but I'm not sure that he is a Mohel and I dont believe they did the whole ceremony. Anywho, thank you for the info!

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#13 of 28 Old 12-12-2006, 11:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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One more question (if anyone who knows sees this). Someone told me the other day that the catholic church is against circumcision. Is that true? I hadnt ever heard that before....so I am just wondering.

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#14 of 28 Old 12-13-2006, 03:25 AM
 
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I read somewhere that the Pope cannot be a circumsized man. But then there is the whole weird Jesus circumcision day is Jan 1st thing...
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#15 of 28 Old 12-13-2006, 06:39 AM
 
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Mamaverdi,
I was raised Catholic and I have never heard of such a thing. That would mean the Cardinals, before voting , have to confirm who is circ'd and who is not. Now THAT would be quite a sight! I don't know what this Jan 1st thing is either.
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#16 of 28 Old 12-13-2006, 10:43 AM
 
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I was talking last year with an American Latina who grew up Catholic in her fifties about circumcision and she said that her experience was that their was a strong expectation of circumcision - that the mother was considered lazy or inadequate if the child wasn't circ'd, and that it was an issue of cleanliness. IIRC her family is Mexican.

She personally didn't share those views, but was reporting them as the position of the people with whom she'd grown up - her family and neighbors, all of whom were Catholic.

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#17 of 28 Old 12-13-2006, 01:27 PM
 
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Well, I don't know the genital state of most men I know. :

But the one person close to me that I know was circed for religious reasons is not in the least bit upset about it. I don't know anyone personally who is an activist against circ'ing, either.
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#18 of 28 Old 12-13-2006, 01:34 PM
 
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I don't know anyone who is upset that they were circ'd for religious reasons, but I know quite a few men who were circumcised in their teens or later, by their own chioce, because the mitzvah had not been [properly] fulfilled. Of those men, only three have ever been religious and to my knowledge only one of them is religious today.

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#19 of 28 Old 12-13-2006, 01:40 PM
 
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I read somewhere that the Pope cannot be a circumsized man. But then there is the whole weird Jesus circumcision day is Jan 1st thing...
Nope, never heard of that either. As far as I can tell from researching this, the Catholic Church has no official opinion on it. Obviously we don't have to circ, as St. Paul says in the NT, because we are not Jews. But there is no prohibition either. It is left up to the parents' choice.
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#20 of 28 Old 12-13-2006, 09:47 PM
 
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Mamaverdi,
I was raised Catholic and I have never heard of such a thing. That would mean the Cardinals, before voting , have to confirm who is circ'd and who is not. Now THAT would be quite a sight! I don't know what this Jan 1st thing is either.
It was once called the Solemnity of the Circumcision (of Jesus, being that he was Jewish, celebrated 8 days post the celebration of his birth). Now it's the Solemnity of Mary Mother of God.
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#21 of 28 Old 12-15-2006, 06:38 PM
 
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One more question (if anyone who knows sees this). Someone told me the other day that the catholic church is against circumcision. Is that true? I hadnt ever heard that before....so I am just wondering.
To answer your original question, no I don't know anyone personally who has regreted it.

Regarding the Catholic Church, yes, it is true. There is a page here: http://www.catholicsagainstcircumcision.org/ with lots of quotes and information.

See the Catechism No 2297. I won't put the direct quote here as not to offend...

HTH

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#22 of 28 Old 12-15-2006, 08:38 PM
 
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See the Catechism No 2297. I won't put the direct quote here as not to offend...
Um, it doesn't mention circumcision there at all. In any way, shape, or form, even indirectly. :
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#23 of 28 Old 12-15-2006, 11:44 PM
 
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I think it would be argued to be a directly intended amputation or mutilation not for strictly therapeutic reasons.
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#24 of 28 Old 12-17-2006, 03:39 AM
 
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Feast of the Circumcision

I still can't find where I read about the Pope, but look here about half way down under the section on Roman Catholics. It's in purple on my browser.
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#25 of 28 Old 12-17-2006, 10:14 AM
 
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I think what the document in purple on the circumstitions page is saying is not that being circumcised makes you evil, or unfit to be Pope, but that holding the belief that circumcision is necessary for salvation or will help you to be saved is a serious error. It would be the belief, not the physical issue itself, that would be a problem morally/doctrinally.

From the article "Papal Elections" in the same encyclopedia --

Quote:
...Alexander III decreed (cap. "Licet", 6, "De elect.") that "he, without any exception, is to be acknowledged as pontiff of the Universal Church who has been elected by two-thirds of the cardinals." As late as 1378, Urban VI was chosen, though not a cardinal (consult, however, Constitut. 50 of Sixtus V "Postquam", § 2). A layman may also be elected pope, as was Celestine V (1294). Even the election of a married man would not be invalid (c. "Qui uxorem", 19, caus. 33, Q. 5). Of course, the election of a heretic, schismatic, or female would be null and void. Immediately on the canonical election of a candidate and his acceptance, he is true pope and can exercise full and absolute jurisdiction over the whole Church. A papal election, therefore, needs no confirmation, as the pontiff has no superior on earth.
Don't see how a circumcision inspection could be part of this...
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#26 of 28 Old 12-17-2006, 03:36 PM
 
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I think it would be argued to be a directly intended amputation or mutilation not for strictly therapeutic reasons.
That section was talking about terrorism and war crimes...... again, : don't get the connection from war crimes to circumcision......
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#27 of 28 Old 12-17-2006, 08:44 PM
 
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It's under the general heading of 'respect for bodily integrity'. It addresses torture, war crimes, kidnapping, AND directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations not for therapeutic medical reasons.

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/fifth.html#PERSONS
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#28 of 28 Old 12-18-2006, 07:02 PM
 
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It was among information about how a Pope cannot be someone who was castrated. I dunno. I'm not Catholic. I have very little interest in the Pope.
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