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#301 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 01:08 AM
 
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Originally Posted by magstphil View Post
so, again, i ask why isn't it okay to learn together? why isn't it okay to chose not to masturbate and be exclusive to your husband/wife? honest question. no snark..
I don't have any problem with it as an individual choice. I just don't see that there's a non-shaming way to teach your kids not to masturbate.

Also (although I realize this is not the main message) it sort of comes across like there's part of your body which belongs to your future spouse and not to you. You are not supposed to mess with it. I have issues with this because I think that we should all own our own sex organs. Sadly not the case for most males in this country (and ESPECIALLY in Utah).
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#302 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 01:19 AM
 
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Also (although I realize this is not the main message) it sort of comes across like there's part of your body which belongs to your future spouse and not to you. You are not supposed to mess with it. I have issues with this because I think that we should all own our own sex organs. Sadly not the case for most males in this country (and ESPECIALLY in Utah).
i think i might have mentioned before (not too sure and too lazy to look) that i personally and i also know other's who do self examines and the like yet refrain from masturbation. i don't feel i need to masturbate in order to 'know myself'.
that said i see where you might be coming from (i could be misreading your post). i know a lot of people who are ashamed to look or even touch themselves to wash. i think i brought up my mom??? she's that way. she tried to teach me shame in it, thankfully my grandmother raised me longer. i do think that 'sexual sacredness' can be confused with 'sex is eeeevil and so are sexual organs' which is very wrong in my book and also not the way it has to be. i don't know much about the men in Utah but being LDS i do know members who have the 'sex is a dirty deed and a dirty word' attitude. that doesn't mean we all are like that or that that's the church's official stance on the matter.

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#303 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 01:21 AM
 
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i think i might have mentioned before (not too sure and too lazy to look) that i personally and i also know other's who do self examines and the like yet refrain from masturbation.
I am not being snarky I swear. But how in the heck does *that* work?
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#304 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 01:25 AM
 
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I am not being snarky I swear. But how in the heck does *that* work?
you sort of lost me. are you asking how one checks their cervix and inner/outer workings without masturbating? because maybe we have a different definition of masturbation? to clarify my definition is stimulating oneself to climax without the assistance of anyone but yourself. but i might be reading your post wrong.

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#305 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 01:29 AM
 
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you sort of lost me. are you asking how one checks their cervix and inner/outer workings without masturbating? because maybe we have a different definition of masturbation? to clarify my definition is stimulating oneself to climax without the assistance of anyone but yourself. but i might be reading your post wrong.
I guess I read your post wrong. I though you meant the self exploration aided in the later teaching of their husband how to please them sexually, yet you said it wasn't masturbation so I was :
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#306 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 01:30 AM
 
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thank you for your post. it is so important to remember that we all are different. all we really can do is answer for ourselves.
: I wanted to clarify that everything I've said on this thread is my personal perspective/belief/opinion. I have maintained all along that I am not trying to convince anyone that they should believe what I do or that they are evil if they don't believe what I do; I've merely been explaining why I believe what I do I know that I didn't put that disclaimer on every post, but that has been my intent all along

Also, since I've been thinking about this topic for a few days, I can't wait to be in the same city as dh again He left for Houston about 3 weeks ago, and he may be able to visit us in a month or so.
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#307 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 01:38 AM
 
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This thread is making me : especially reading it today, the day the copies of Our Bodies, Ourselves and Taking Charge of Your Fertility arrived for my teenager. I just do not get how masturbation is seen as not being "exclusive" with your partner. I mean wow, a partner has more access to a womans body than the woman herself.

just wow.
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#308 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 01:40 AM
 
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Well klg and magstphil, I do appreciate that you've stayed around to answer questions even when your beliefs are being questioned and sometimes even mocked. I do disagree but understand where you are coming from and appreciate your politeness and candor.
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#309 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 01:42 AM
 
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../
Also, since I've been thinking about this topic for a few days, I can't wait to be in the same city as dh again He left for Houston about 3 weeks ago, and he may be able to visit us in a month or so.
You know, I am right there with you....in a pretty literal sense. Haven't seen my DH for 3 weeks either. Actually it's 3 weeks today.
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#310 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 02:49 AM
 
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You know, I am right there with you....in a pretty literal sense. Haven't seen my DH for 3 weeks either. Actually it's 3 weeks today.
I was thinking about you when I posted that! I wasn't sure how long your dh had been gone, but I knew he moved ahead of you guys.
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#311 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 02:53 AM
 
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I've been trying to think of a reply for days, and I think I might have come up with one!
I'm LDS, and so is my dh. When he was a teenager, while he was starting to prepare to go on his mission, he had an "issue" (for the lack of a better word) with masterbation. He went and talked to his bishop and Stake President (like a bishop, only over a group of congregations, instead of just one). They had an interesting perspective on it. Dh was told it wasn't so much the act of masterbating itself, it was the lack of being able to control one's carnal desires or natural man. Masterbation is taught against because it can become an addiction, just like porn, which is stongly discouraged, or alcohol, or drugs, or any other habbit forming substance. We are taught to avoid addiction and to remain in control of our bodies.
Dh was counciled that being unable to control the urge to masterbate could lead to being unable to control other sexual urges and lead to bigger sins (sins according to the LDS beliefs!). Does that make sense? I hope that was clear enough, please tell me if it wasn't!

For the record, I've had multiple sexual partners when I was younger. I never orgasmed before marrying my husband and making love with him. And yes, I masterbated a few times, and could never achieve climax. It wasn't until I felt safe and loved in the arms of my husband that I could relax enough to allow it to happen. He is very attentive and is excellent at reading my body language. And, if he needs help in knowing where or how to touch me, I have no problem showing him. Our motto is anything goes in the bedroom between a married couple as long as both parties are comfortable with what is going on and both parties are present. I hope that makes sense as well!

Again, disclaimer, these are just my beliefs and the way I been taught and the way I interpret what the LDS church teaches.

Wife to D (12/03) and totally smitten Mama to DD (4/05) DS (2/09) and expecting DD#2  6/23/11
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#312 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 03:07 AM
 
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I was thinking about you when I posted that! I wasn't sure how long your dh had been gone, but I knew he moved ahead of you guys.
He left on Feb 23, but came back to visit for a weekend 3 weeks ago.
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#313 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 10:26 AM
 
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Also (although I realize this is not the main message) it sort of comes across like there's part of your body which belongs to your future spouse and not to you. You are not supposed to mess with it. I have issues with this because I think that we should all own our own sex organs. Sadly not the case for most males in this country (and ESPECIALLY in Utah).
I agree that this is part of what bothers me about religious prohibitions on masturbation. Well said.


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Masterbation is taught against because it can become an addiction, just like porn, which is stongly discouraged, or alcohol, or drugs, or any other habbit forming substance. We are taught to avoid addiction and to remain in control of our bodies.
This explanation doesn't make sense to me. One could be addicted to all sorts of things (sex with your spouse, food, TV, the Internet ). Why ban only masturbation? And why ban it for everyone since clearly everyone is not addicted to masturbation? I could see if there were broader societal implications for the addiction whuch prompt religions to ban gambling, drugs, and alcohol, but that's not the case for masturbation.
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#314 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 11:14 AM
 
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I don't have any problem with it as an individual choice. I just don't see that there's a non-shaming way to teach your kids not to masturbate.

Also (although I realize this is not the main message) it sort of comes across like there's part of your body which belongs to your future spouse and not to you. You are not supposed to mess with it. I have issues with this because I think that we should all own our own sex organs. Sadly not the case for most males in this country (and ESPECIALLY in Utah).
Why do you say especially in Utah? Because of the large LDS population or another reason? I'm just curious - don't mean anything snarky by it.
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#315 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 11:20 AM
 
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This explanation doesn't make sense to me. One could be addicted to all sorts of things (sex with your spouse, food, TV, the Internet ). Why ban only masturbation? And why ban it for everyone since clearly everyone is not addicted to masturbation? I could see if there were broader societal implications for the addiction whuch prompt religions to ban gambling, drugs, and alcohol, but that's not the case for masturbation.
If any of those other things you mentioned became addictive, I can see their being a ban put on those as well for a specific person. I know my sister's bishop had a discussion with her husband about internet usage when his "addiction" became so great that he wasn't meeting the needs of his family.

As for a ban specific only to this, my first guess would be that it's because some things are more addicting more quickly to the majority. I don't have statistics to back it up (although I bet I could find some) but I bet sexual addictions are a lot higher than maybe any other addiction out there.

Again, in order to understand (and you probably won't simply because you don't believe the same way) you have to remember that we believe sex is about MORE than just one person and about more than just to feel good. It's something sacred and special and to be shared within the bonds of marriage.
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#316 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 11:22 AM
 
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This thread is making me : especially reading it today, the day the copies of Our Bodies, Ourselves and Taking Charge of Your Fertility arrived for my teenager. I just do not get how masturbation is seen as not being "exclusive" with your partner. I mean wow, a partner has more access to a womans body than the woman herself.

just wow.
I think you've misunderstood our point of view but even if that were true, wouldn't it mean that a woman had more access to her husband's body than he himself did also?

It would be mutual since no masturbation goes for both sexes.
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#317 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 12:29 PM
 
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I think you've misunderstood our point of view but even if that were true, wouldn't it mean that a woman had more access to her husband's body than he himself did also?

It would be mutual since no masturbation goes for both sexes.
exactly!

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#318 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 01:04 PM
 
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Just subbing -- I'm finding this discussion very interesting.
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#319 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 01:16 PM
 
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Why do you say especially in Utah? Because of the large LDS population or another reason? I'm just curious - don't mean anything snarky by it.
I mean our circ rate is up about 80-90% here. I can't say whethere that's because of the population being LDS, or some other factor.
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#320 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 01:49 PM
 
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Again, in order to understand (and you probably won't simply because you don't believe the same way) you have to remember that we believe sex is about MORE than just one person and about more than just to feel good. It's something sacred and special and to be shared within the bonds of marriage.
I do understand what you wrote. But, I actually believe that without self-touch, dh and I would not have experienced making-love in the deepest and most spiritual way. For us, him "giving" me an orgasm and then me having vaginal sex for his benefit was not enough. We wanted to be united, face-to-face, and swept away together. Masturbation gave us that.
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#321 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 01:51 PM
 
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As Paris Hilton would say... That's hot.
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#322 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 02:56 PM
 
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I think you've misunderstood our point of view but even if that were true, wouldn't it mean that a woman had more access to her husband's body than he himself did also?

It would be mutual since no masturbation goes for both sexes.
I find that to be : too
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#323 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 03:02 PM
 
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I think you've misunderstood our point of view but even if that were true, wouldn't it mean that a woman had more access to her husband's body than he himself did also?

It would be mutual since no masturbation goes for both sexes.
I don't see how this makes it okay.
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#324 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 05:37 PM
 
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Ha! I can finally get in to this section! I'm not sure if that's a good thing, though....esp with this topic!

I'm on the no-masturbation side of the argument. My Church teaches that it's wrong if you're a man, wrong if you're a woman, wrong if you're single, wrong if you're married, wrong if you're a teenager, and that it does indeed affect more than just oneself. Of course, the sinfulness of it depends on whether or not you believe that as well and still commit the act intentionally. So no - I'm NOT saying that YOU are sinners and are doomed to hell. But for me, knowing what I know and what my Church teaches, and still doing it intentionally, well, then I'd be the one with the problem.

My Church teaches that sex is a beautiful and sacred thing that was given to us by God for two reasons: To unite us more deeply to our spouse and to bring about children. That's why if either of these are removed from the picture, then the sexual act is wrong. In other words, if we have sex with a condom - you've removed the procreative aspect and are essentially telling your spouse "I am completely open to you and love you and I want all of you but your fertility. That I don't want." Masturbation, of course, removes both. With it, there is no unity between the spouses and there is no way to conceive .

Furthermore (saying all this just so you know where I'M coming from), sexual gratification is not a right, but a gift. It's a gift that a man gives to his wife and the woman to her husband. God made our bodies so we'd enjoy sex, yes, but He doesn't give us free reign over our sexual faculties anymore than we have free reign over the rest of our bodies. The sexual faculties have to be used as they were intended to be used.

Masturbation turns that gift inwards, toward oneself, and makes it "selfish" so to speak. It's not an outward sign anymore of a spouse's love for the other, but an inward sign of one's love of oneself (it's not bad to love oneself, but my Church teaches that masturbating to oneself is a disordered love - it's sex that is non-unifying and non-fruitful).

As for it hurting others, my Church teaches that it most certainly does. First of all, it wounds ourselves because of what I just said above - it makes us seek pleasure with ourselves rather than with our spouse. It introverts our sexuality into being something to keep rather than something to give. It hurts others because it is often done with pornography - and it exploits those people who are being used as "tools" to achieve orgasm. If a boy is shy and embarrassed to ask out the cute girl in his class so instead he masturbates while thinking of her, it hurts her, because she has become a "tool" in his eyes rather than a person worthy of his respect and dignity. And it hurts in a marriage, too.

How? Well, I, for one, would be VERY hurt and ashamed if I found out my husband was finding sexual gratification with himself in the bathroom rather than seeking me out to gratify him. I am his beloved, he is not beloved unto himself. And he's already told me it would hurt him as well if I would do the same thing.

As for mutual masturbation when married, it's not allowed by itself. It is, however, allowed as foreplay and to help the woman achieve orgasm after the man has already. And my Church teaches that the man always, always, always must orgasm within the woman - vaginally - so he has no other choice. The woman, on the other hand, can be finished any way they prefer. So it seems like the woman gets the special treatment here. The woman can orgasm before intercourse, during, or after with finger or oral stimulation or whatever the two are inclined to do, so long as the man's semen always ends up in her.

So there ya go. That's what I believe and I see the complete reasoning behind it. Neither one of us has a problem with it.
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#325 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 05:47 PM
 
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I've been rendered speechless by the above post.

Except to ask... will you share what church this is that give such extremely detailed and explicit instructions as to exactly what kind of stimulation, and in exactly what order, is allowed for their followers?

--Olive
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#326 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 05:58 PM
 
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I've been rendered speechless by the above post.

Except to ask... will you share what church this is that give such extremely detailed and explicit instructions as to exactly what kind of stimulation, and in exactly what order, is allowed for their followers?

--Olive
Re-read the post. They don't give explicit instructions as to what kind of stimulation or in what order.

As long as the man ejaculates in his wife's vagina, everything else is do-what-you-want.
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#327 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 06:00 PM
 
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I've been rendered speechless by the above post
I am also speechless - because everything was so well expressed and because it makes so much sense to me personally. Thank you for explaining your perspective here I hope these perspectives can help the OP when she gets back from Florida!
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#328 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 06:10 PM
 
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As for mutual masturbation when married, it's not allowed by itself. It is, however, allowed as foreplay and to help the woman achieve orgasm after the man has already. And my Church teaches that the man always, always, always must orgasm within the woman - vaginally - so he has no other choice. The woman, on the other hand, can be finished any way they prefer. So it seems like the woman gets the special treatment here. The woman can orgasm before intercourse, during, or after with finger or oral stimulation or whatever the two are inclined to do, so long as the man's semen always ends up in her.
Why yes, it does. If I'm understanding your post, here's the prescribed order:

Woman can recieve stimulation, man must then have vaginal intercourse with woman and achieve climax, woman can then have more stimulation if required.

And here are the prohibited sexual acts between a married couple:

Man cannot have manual or oral stimulation which results in orgasm, couple cannot have any sexual contact with does not result in vaginal intercourse with male ejaculation, well honestly, there is a variety of acts which would be banned, but I'm not going to get that graphic here.

And you haven't answered my question... will you state what church you belong to?

--Olive
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#329 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 06:20 PM
 
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this makes me so sad for gay and trans people who are born into this Church.
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#330 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 06:24 PM
 
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I'm very conservative in my religion and I guess I've never heard of a church giving such explicit instruction on the sex act between a married couple. Can you share which church you belong to. I belong to Evangelical Free Church. I guess I never considered self pleasure wrong. Can anyone direct me to scripture to help me with this.
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