If you religiously oppose masterbation... - Page 13 - Mothering Forums
First ... 3  11  12  13 14  15  ... Last
Religious Studies > If you religiously oppose masterbation...
boingo82's Avatar boingo82 08:30 PM 03-31-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sancta View Post
Woman and man can both receive stimulation in any way, shape, or form they desire. Once the point of ejaculation draws near, man must climax in his wife. Then the woman can have more stimulation if desired. The only RULE is that ejaculation must occur in the woman. Anything else is up for grabs.

Quote:
And here are the prohibited sexual acts between a married couple:

Man cannot have manual or oral stimulation which results in orgasm, couple cannot have any sexual contact with does not result in vaginal intercourse with male ejaculation, well honestly, there is a variety of acts which would be banned, but I'm not going to get that graphic here.
So it is a sin to be impotent, is that correct?
Because my husband is a great performer, but there are some times when he just can't "finish". Just can't. So that's prohibited?

Anastasiya's Avatar Anastasiya 08:31 PM 03-31-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by artgoddess View Post
Oh my gosh, no one has said anything to imply that they would ever make fun of any religion on this thread, and I dare say any other threads in Religious Studies. if they do, the thread is yanked.

How is it possible to have a productive conversation with a person if you are already assuming intent before they even speak. What's the point if you already think you know everything to other person is thin king or going to say. You don't need anyone else for the conversation then, have it by yourself.
Sorry, I didn't mean to offend by withholding info. And I didn't mean to imply that I WOULD be made fun of. Glad to hear that religious mocking doesn't happen here. At the CAC forum it seemed like that's where it was going (into religion bashing).
klg47's Avatar klg47 08:32 PM 03-31-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by boingo82 View Post
So it is a sin to be impotent, is that correct?
Now that's REALLY stretching and reading into things. You may not be totally caught up on the thread, but she already addressed what happens if sex is interrupted or you are unable to finish.
boingo82's Avatar boingo82 08:36 PM 03-31-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sancta View Post
Just because a straight person CAN marry doesn't mean they will, or that they want to, or that they'll ever find someone to marry. So the burden of chastity is the same for all unmarrieds - straight, gay or trans.
Not even CLOSE, given that most gay people cannot marry whether they want to or not.
boingo82's Avatar boingo82 08:37 PM 03-31-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sancta View Post
..
And I may not want to know this, but what is PIV intercourse?
penis in vagina.
Anastasiya's Avatar Anastasiya 08:39 PM 03-31-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by boingo82 View Post
So it is a sin to be impotent, is that correct?
Because my husband is a great performer, but there are some times when he just can't "finish". Just can't. So that's prohibited?
It's one thing if a man is always impotent - and by that I mean cannot even obtain an erection. Because >>in my Church<< he cannot marry because he cannot have relations with his wife. But that isn't even remotely sinful. Not a bit, anymore than a woman being born without a vagina (who also couldn't marry) would be sinning.

Now of course, with medical aid a lot of these conditions can be helped nowadays so these people can marry in the Church.

As for sometimes not being able to finish - no problem. That isn't sinful. That actually happened twice on our honeymoon.

Catholics would ask themselves: Was the intent there to ejaculate? Of course. But could I, for whatever reason? No. So life goes on and we'll try again later. More fun IMO!
Anastasiya's Avatar Anastasiya 08:41 PM 03-31-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by boingo82 View Post
Not even CLOSE, given that most gay people cannot marry whether they want to or not.
So hetero singles don't have sexual urges? Of course they do. They probably want to masturbate or have flings with men/women in bars to get some sex, and some probably like living in with a boyfriend/girlfriend but have no desire to marry....but if they really wish to live their faith, they have to fight these urges just as a homosexual single has to.
boingo82's Avatar boingo82 08:42 PM 03-31-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by klg47 View Post
Now that's REALLY stretching and reading into things. You may not be totally caught up on the thread, but she already addressed what happens if sex is interrupted or you are unable to finish.
Oh I see it now. I missed that the first time around and just saw the repeated bits of
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sancta View Post
...And my Church teaches that the man always, always, always must orgasm within the woman - vaginally - so he has no other choice. ..
said one way or another. So I don't think it was stretching at all.
boingo82's Avatar boingo82 08:44 PM 03-31-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sancta View Post
So hetero singles don't have sexual urges? Of course they do. They probably want to masturbate or have flings with men/women in bars to get some sex, and some probably like living in with a boyfriend/girlfriend but have no desire to marry....but if they really wish to live their faith, they have to fight these urges just as a homosexual single has to.
Heterosexual:
Should abstain from sex until marriage
Can choose to marry and then can have sex

Homosexual:
Cannot marry, and therefore can never have sex, ever, under any circumstances, unless they marry someone of the opposite gender and therefore have sex with someone they don't even want sex with


How are these even remotely equal?
Anastasiya's Avatar Anastasiya 08:45 PM 03-31-2007
boingo82 -

"...And my Church teaches that the man always, always, always must orgasm within the woman - vaginally - so he has no other choice. .."

That was implying that there was an orgasm/ejaculation every time, which is the norm. IF an ejaculation is gonna occur, that's where it's gotta be.
fericito's Avatar fericito 08:45 PM 03-31-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by fericito
I think you've misunderstood our point of view but even if that were true, wouldn't it mean that a woman had more access to her husband's body than he himself did also?

It would be mutual since no masturbation goes for both sexes.
Quote:
I don't see how this makes it okay.
First of all I said that my point had been misunderstood. I've never said that a man has more access to a woman's body than the woman herself does. I was simply saying that for those who read my comments that way and were bothered by them that maybe they'd feel better if they remembered it goes both ways. Masturbation is restricted by anyone - not just by women.

Just because I think my sexual pleasure should be received by dh and vice versa doesn't mean he has more access to me than I do. It means that it's a choice I've made to offer what I have to him and he makes the same choice to me.

That's part of why it's so sacred and special. Like I said before, I don't expect someone of another faith to believe it and probably not even to understand it since living that guidance requires faith in order to do so.
fericito's Avatar fericito 08:47 PM 03-31-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by boingo82 View Post
Heterosexual:
Should abstain from sex until marriage
Can choose to marry and then can have sex

Homosexual:
Cannot marry, and therefore can never have sex, ever, under any circumstances, unless they marry someone of the opposite gender and therefore have sex with someone they don't even want sex with


How are these even remotely equal?
I'm not Catholic so I can't answer for that church but who said that life or anything a church teaches has to be equal? I don't remember even if God said that He was equal in everything.

And I don't want to offend anyone but some of us believe that living a homosexual lifestyle is a choice - therefore making that choice would mean living with the consequences of it as well.
Altair's Avatar Altair 08:49 PM 03-31-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sancta View Post
So hetero singles don't have sexual urges? Of course they do. They probably want to masturbate or have flings with men/women in bars to get some sex, and some probably like living in with a boyfriend/girlfriend but have no desire to marry....but if they really wish to live their faith, they have to fight these urges just as a homosexual single has to.

do you honestly not see the difference here, really? I feel very silly typing it out, like I'd be insulting your intelligence.
Anastasiya's Avatar Anastasiya 08:52 PM 03-31-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by boingo82 View Post
Heterosexual:
Should abstain from sex until marriage
Can choose to marry and then can have sex

Homosexual:
Cannot marry, and therefore can never have sex, ever, under any circumstances, unless they marry someone of the opposite gender and therefore have sex with someone they don't even want sex with

How are these even remotely equal?
You're talking like every heterosexual can or will want to marry. Some don't. Lots don't. Some can't.

I see where you're going though with the homosexuality thing - but I'll be honest. If someone has homosexual tendencies, in my Church, they should remain chaste in thought, action and sexual behavior. In other words, I can say I'm attracted to women but I don't act on it. I don't flirt, I don't date, I don't kiss, I don't "fuel the flames" so to speak. I live just like any other single person who must control their sexual urges and desires, and if I feel that I am homosexually oriented because of a circumstance or other in my life, then I can get help and redirection. And don't tell me it's not possible. For some, it is. I have three very good formerly-gay friends who are now happily married to someone of the opposite sex.

Like I said before, in my Church sex serves two fundamental purposes, and neither can be deliberately separated from the other. Masturbation, hetero relations outside of marriage, homosexual relations, etc all separate one from the other, making the sexual act disordered and incomplete.
Altair's Avatar Altair 08:54 PM 03-31-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by fericito View Post
And I don't want to offend anyone but some of us believe that living a homosexual lifestyle is a choice - therefore making that choice would mean living with the consequences of it as well.
ok then. imagine YOU grew up in a society where homosexuality was the norm, and heterosexuality was a sin (except for brief procreative purposes). your choice was to be celibate (meaning, not even masturbating) or have sex with another woman within a homosexual marriage.

fun, huh?

Pretty easy to just choose to be homosexual???


no? why not?
fericito's Avatar fericito 08:56 PM 03-31-2007
Just wanted to quote from a guide for parents found on our church's website.

This is in response to those who feel that you can't teach your child not to engage in these acts without it being shameful. Also because someone said they wanted scriptural reference.

The so-called sex drive in humans is not entirely the chemical or instinctive compulsion to mate that it is in animals. Rather, from the time we are born, we each need to be physically and socially nurtured. The changes of puberty permit us to experience remarkably heightened pleasures of touch and arousal. But we have the agency to control the emotions and behaviors leading up to intentional sexual arousal. We can control when, where, how, and with whom we express our sexuality.

Your teenagers will face great pressures to express their sexual feelings in sinful ways...

Sex is a prominent subject during adolescence...

One example: masturbation is considered by many in the world to be the harmless expression of an instinctive sex drive. Teach your children that the prophets have condemned it as a sin throughout the ages and that they can choose not to do it. Throughout childhood, boys and girls have touched their own genitals frequently to wash and to dress. This is a behavior that usually has the same meaning as keeping one’s feet warm in the winter, enjoying a swim on a hot day, or scratching an itch. We ought to be friendly to our bodies and appreciate the body’s marvelous range of senses. This innocent touching is not the kind of behavior warned against by prophets through the ages. The sin of masturbation occurs when a person stimulates his or her own sex organs for the purpose of sexual arousal. It is a perversion of the body’s passions. When we pervert these passions and intentionally use them for selfish, immoral purposes, we become carnal.

Masturbation is not physically necessary. There is already a way by which the male system relieves excessive spermatic fluid quite regularly through the nocturnal emission or wet dream. Monthly menstrual flow expels the female’s egg and cleanses the womb. For both sexes, physical or emotional tensions can be released by vigorous activity. Thus, in a biological sense, masturbation for either gender is not necessary. In a gospel sense, it is a sin: “Masturbation, a rather common indiscretion, is not approved of the Lord nor of His Church regardless of what may have been said by others whose ‘norms’ are lower. Latter-day Saints are urged to avoid this practice”.

To help your teenagers overcome these wicked influences, teach them that their bodies are good. Their bodies were created by the Lord, who declared that his work was good. The crowning phase of creation was to give Adam and Eve their bodies, fashioned in the image of their Redeemer. These bodies are not to be abused in any way. Paul taught:

“Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

“If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy, for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are” (1 Corinthians 3:16–17).

The scriptures often refer respectfully but plainly to the body and its parts. There is no embarrassment and often there is sacred symbolism. It is the world that makes the divinely created body an object of carnal lust. For example, it makes the female breasts primarily into sexual enticements, while the truth is that they were intended to nourish and comfort children. It promotes male sexual aggression in contrast to Christ’s example of tenderness, long-suffering, kindness, and steadfastness in the home.

Shame about the human body, its parts and purposes, is justified only when a person uses it for carnal purposes. Teach your children that they will find joy in their bodies when they use them virtuously after the manner taught by Christ. (Spencer W. Kimball, Love Versus Lust, Brigham Young University Speeches of the Year p. 22)

Obviously this talk was given to those of my faith. I don't demand that anyone who doesn't believe as I do must live as I do. It does go a long way towards explaining that it is possible to teach a child without shame.
Anastasiya's Avatar Anastasiya 08:57 PM 03-31-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair View Post
ok then. imagine YOU grew up in a society where homosexuality was the norm, and heterosexuality was a sin (except for brief procreative purposes). your choice was to be celibate (meaning, not even masturbating) or have sex with another woman within a homosexual marriage.

fun, huh?

Pretty easy to just choose to be homosexual???


no? why not?
How can any of us answer that without you telling us if we have the same Faith in this scenario or a different faith that allows these things? We're basing our beliefs on our faith - not on society's "norms."
Mackenzie's Avatar Mackenzie 08:58 PM 03-31-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sancta View Post
Ha! I can finally get in to this section! I'm not sure if that's a good thing, though....esp with this topic!

I'm on the no-masturbation side of the argument. My Church teaches that it's wrong if you're a man, wrong if you're a woman, wrong if you're single, wrong if you're married, wrong if you're a teenager, and that it does indeed affect more than just oneself. Of course, the sinfulness of it depends on whether or not you believe that as well and still commit the act intentionally. So no - I'm NOT saying that YOU are sinners and are doomed to hell. But for me, knowing what I know and what my Church teaches, and still doing it intentionally, well, then I'd be the one with the problem.

My Church teaches that sex is a beautiful and sacred thing that was given to us by God for two reasons: To unite us more deeply to our spouse and to bring about children. That's why if either of these are removed from the picture, then the sexual act is wrong. In other words, if we have sex with a condom - you've removed the procreative aspect and are essentially telling your spouse "I am completely open to you and love you and I want all of you but your fertility. That I don't want." Masturbation, of course, removes both. With it, there is no unity between the spouses and there is no way to conceive .

Furthermore (saying all this just so you know where I'M coming from), sexual gratification is not a right, but a gift. It's a gift that a man gives to his wife and the woman to her husband. God made our bodies so we'd enjoy sex, yes, but He doesn't give us free reign over our sexual faculties anymore than we have free reign over the rest of our bodies. The sexual faculties have to be used as they were intended to be used.

Masturbation turns that gift inwards, toward oneself, and makes it "selfish" so to speak. It's not an outward sign anymore of a spouse's love for the other, but an inward sign of one's love of oneself (it's not bad to love oneself, but my Church teaches that masturbating to oneself is a disordered love - it's sex that is non-unifying and non-fruitful).

As for it hurting others, my Church teaches that it most certainly does. First of all, it wounds ourselves because of what I just said above - it makes us seek pleasure with ourselves rather than with our spouse. It introverts our sexuality into being something to keep rather than something to give. It hurts others because it is often done with pornography - and it exploits those people who are being used as "tools" to achieve orgasm. If a boy is shy and embarrassed to ask out the cute girl in his class so instead he masturbates while thinking of her, it hurts her, because she has become a "tool" in his eyes rather than a person worthy of his respect and dignity. And it hurts in a marriage, too.

How? Well, I, for one, would be VERY hurt and ashamed if I found out my husband was finding sexual gratification with himself in the bathroom rather than seeking me out to gratify him. I am his beloved, he is not beloved unto himself. And he's already told me it would hurt him as well if I would do the same thing.

As for mutual masturbation when married, it's not allowed by itself. It is, however, allowed as foreplay and to help the woman achieve orgasm after the man has already. And my Church teaches that the man always, always, always must orgasm within the woman - vaginally - so he has no other choice. The woman, on the other hand, can be finished any way they prefer. So it seems like the woman gets the special treatment here. The woman can orgasm before intercourse, during, or after with finger or oral stimulation or whatever the two are inclined to do, so long as the man's semen always ends up in her.

So there ya go. That's what I believe and I see the complete reasoning behind it. Neither one of us has a problem with it.
I would be concerned about any religion that actually HAS made that many rules about sex. Yeah, only in missionary position the tuesday after the full moon....nonsense.
fericito's Avatar fericito 08:59 PM 03-31-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair View Post
ok then. imagine YOU grew up in a society where homosexuality was the norm, and heterosexuality was a sin (except for brief procreative purposes). your choice was to be celibate (meaning, not even masturbating) or have sex with another woman within a homosexual marriage.

fun, huh?

Pretty easy to just choose to be homosexual???


no? why not?
Altair - my purpose is not to offend. This subject is probably for an entirely different thread and I've debated it before and know it will not be won.

My belief is that LIVING a homosexual life is a choice. I'm honestly undecided on whether or not I think a person CHOOSES to have those urges. I don't have the answer to that.

However I believe that we all have trials in life. I don't think the trial of having homosexual urges would be easy - I've never claimed it would. But I can think of a lot of very difficult tests, even lifelong tests that many are called to endure.

If this is the case for some, I believe that they can obey the commandements even if it's difficult. It's all about choice. I also can see why it would seem unfair but I don't remember ever being told that life WOULD be fair. I most certainly think it is not.
thismama's Avatar thismama 09:00 PM 03-31-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sancta View Post
Why? My Church loves them and calls them to chastity just as it does all people. No marriage = no sex...whether you're gay, trans or hetero. I know several homosexually oriented people in the Church who live chastely and happily. Sex isn't a requirement for happiness.
I love how the heterosexual Christians are so big on this "Oh noes, our church loves the gay people. They just shouldn't have sex or fall in love. Not a requirement for happiness and alla that. Hang on I hafta make supper for my husband and family..."

I just told my roomie about this convo, and she says, "OMG tell them I am the poster child for being told not to masturbate. Look how perverted and weird I turned out."

And I can vouch.. she really, really did turn out perverted and weird.
Anastasiya's Avatar Anastasiya 09:00 PM 03-31-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackenzie View Post
I would be concerned about any religion that actually HAS made that many rules about sex. Yeah, only in missionary position the tuesday after the full moon....nonsense.
Oh, read on, Mackenzie. There is only one rule.

Missionary position? Haven't done that one in a LONG time, myself. (am pregnant and it's not comfy).
Aura_Kitten's Avatar Aura_Kitten 09:01 PM 03-31-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair View Post
I find it perverted that a church would tell people these kinds of things. I am not making fun of your church. I can't imagine why people would give over any authority to people who tell you where your semen can go. I have NEVER heard even the most sex-culture obsessed conservative churches be THIS graphic. I'm shocked.

What if the wife doesn't WANT her husband's semen or penis inside of her? What if she WANTS to pleasure him, but doesn't want pleasure herself? If she isn't turned on, it would not be a very nice sensation to quick change to PIV sex just so he can orgasm. Ouch.

THAT to me is the biggest restriction yet I've heard on this thread. What's so hard for me to understand is how OTHER people tell you to do this-- whether church or parents telling you where you can come and by whom and not by yourself. No one owns your body but yourself.
a resounding YES.

yes this is graphic but i think we need to get this idea out there: i for one quite like my lover's taste, and would be extremely sexually and emotionally frustrated if i "had" to give that up so he could ejaculate inside me.

i find it ... yes *shocking* ... that anyone would willingly follow a faith that puts such absurd rules down about one can and can't do in the privacy and *sanctity* of their own homes and loves and relationships. :

Quote:
Originally Posted by momma2emerson View Post
As someone who has struggled with infertility, I find this sentiment upsetting. I don't think you meant it to come across that way, but it still hurts. All my life, I have wanted to be a mom. I felt that was my calling, yet I had to struggle dearly to see it happen.

Many women are unsuited to become mothers and feel as such.

The feminist movement gave us the opportunity to choose what we as INDIVIDUALS want. I am ever grateful for that.

ITA.




and..... :: sigh :: I guess I've just been reminded too many times in this thread just how far us non-straight people still have to go for equal rights in our world.

homosexuality is NOT a choice.
gays and lesbians and bi's and trannies and et al do not MAKE A CHOICE to be the way they are. they simply ARE. for you to say that it is only our society that condones that, and that you are somehow above us because you're following a religion that chooses to ignore biology... well, that's just... offensive.





... this thread has gotten so far off topic.
klg47's Avatar klg47 09:01 PM 03-31-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sancta View Post
How can any of us answer that without you telling us if we have the same Faith in this scenario or a different faith that allows these things? We're basing our beliefs on our faith - not on society's "norms."
Exactly. If a homosexual person doesn't think that the prohibitions on sexual activity are fair, he/she is not required to remain a member of that faith. If he/she still strongly believes the faith/Church is correct, he/she will understand that his/her homosexuality is a challenge given to him/her to deal with.
Altair's Avatar Altair 09:03 PM 03-31-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sancta View Post
How can any of us answer that without you telling us if we have the same Faith in this scenario or a different faith that allows these things? We're basing our beliefs on our faith - not on society's "norms."
Yes, you have the same faith. Imagine your faith telling you that your choices are

A: Never experience any sexual pleasure, even through your own hands.
B: Force yourself to have sex with a woman in order to have ANY intimate contact with another human being.


This is what it feels like for gay people being raised in certain religous communities. I know from personal experience. It's a horrible, and unnecessary, feeling.
fericito's Avatar fericito 09:04 PM 03-31-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
I love how the heterosexual Christians are so big on this "Oh noes, our church loves the gay people. They just shouldn't have sex or fall in love. Not a requirement for happiness and alla that. Hang on I hafta make supper for my husband and family..."
It genuinely makes me sad that so many homosexuals think all heterosexual Christians are like this.

Many a heterosexual person learned to live without sex or even falling in love. Sorry but homosexuals being told not to have sex don't hold the market on unhappiness.

No matter what your lot in life, each day, each moment is a CHOICE and it IS possible to find happiness even without society's norms or your own personal "heart's desire".
Aura_Kitten's Avatar Aura_Kitten 09:06 PM 03-31-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair View Post
Yes, you have the same faith. Imagine your faith telling you that your choices are

A: Never experience any sexual pleasure, even through your own hands.
B: Force yourself to have sex with a woman in order to have ANY intimate contact with another human being.


This is what it feels like for gay people being raised in certain religous communities. I know from personal experience. It's a horrible, and unnecessary, feeling.

Thanks Altair. you said that perfectly.
klg47's Avatar klg47 09:06 PM 03-31-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aura_Kitten View Post
i find it ... yes *shocking* ... that anyone would willingly follow a faith that puts such absurd rules down about one can and can't do in the privacy and *sanctity* of their own homes and loves and relationships.
We believe that those rules enhance the sanctity of our homes, loves, and relationships.
Mackenzie's Avatar Mackenzie 09:07 PM 03-31-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by klg47 View Post
Exactly. If a homosexual person doesn't think that the prohibitions on sexual activity are fair, he/she is not required to remain a member of that faith. If he/she still strongly believes the faith/Church is correct, he/she will understand that his/her homosexuality is a challenge given to him/her to deal with.

See, now my experience with Catholocism is that it is so beaten into you that it is hard to leave behind. There is so much gulit that comes with being Catholic that remains if you (try to) leave. I have several (around 5?) homosexuals in my church that grew up Catholic, and still claim to be even if it (Catholicism) won't accept them
Aura_Kitten's Avatar Aura_Kitten 09:07 PM 03-31-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by fericito View Post
It genuinely makes me sad that so many homosexuals think all heterosexual Christians are like this.

Many a heterosexual person learned to live without sex or even falling in love. Sorry but homosexuals being told not to have sex don't hold the market on unhappiness.

No matter what your lot in life, each day, each moment is a CHOICE and it IS possible to find happiness even without society's norms or your own personal "heart's desire".


... do you honestly have no idea how offensive this is??:
fericito's Avatar fericito 09:07 PM 03-31-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aura_Kitten View Post
Thanks Altair. you said that perfectly.
And yet many religious people CHOOSE to live a life just like that. What about monks or nuns? Missionaries? Etc.

MANY people find that choice brings them closer to their God.
First ... 3  11  12  13 14  15  ... Last

Up