If you religiously oppose masterbation... - Page 15 - Mothering Forums

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#421 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 10:40 PM
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Here's my two cents:

I'd rather have my kids rub one off in the bedroom than be promiscuous, become parents before they are mentally/emotionally ready to, and/or catch some incurable STD.

Self Sex = Safe sex.

You can't get pregnant/get someone pregnant nor catch a disease from self gratification!
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#422 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 10:45 PM
 
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I have read this whole thread over the last couple of days and I must say it's mighty interesting. I never knew there where even people out there in the world who oppose masturbation! wow! (no offense to those of you who abstain I just was really surprised). not trying to be snarky.

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#423 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 10:50 PM
 
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there's a whole lot of interpretation here, and a little bit of scripture that could be interpreted in a variety of ways. what does it say in the original language? those scriptures mention nothing of masturbation, nor do they say that only procreative sex is permitted. and who determined that masturbation "defiles" the body? and based on what? are prophets divine or are they human? are any of them women?


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Originally Posted by fericito View Post
Just wanted to quote from a guide for parents found on our church's website.

This is in response to those who feel that you can't teach your child not to engage in these acts without it being shameful. Also because someone said they wanted scriptural reference.

The so-called sex drive in humans is not entirely the chemical or instinctive compulsion to mate that it is in animals. Rather, from the time we are born, we each need to be physically and socially nurtured. The changes of puberty permit us to experience remarkably heightened pleasures of touch and arousal. But we have the agency to control the emotions and behaviors leading up to intentional sexual arousal. We can control when, where, how, and with whom we express our sexuality.

Your teenagers will face great pressures to express their sexual feelings in sinful ways...

Sex is a prominent subject during adolescence...

One example: masturbation is considered by many in the world to be the harmless expression of an instinctive sex drive. Teach your children that the prophets have condemned it as a sin throughout the ages and that they can choose not to do it. Throughout childhood, boys and girls have touched their own genitals frequently to wash and to dress. This is a behavior that usually has the same meaning as keeping one’s feet warm in the winter, enjoying a swim on a hot day, or scratching an itch. We ought to be friendly to our bodies and appreciate the body’s marvelous range of senses. This innocent touching is not the kind of behavior warned against by prophets through the ages. The sin of masturbation occurs when a person stimulates his or her own sex organs for the purpose of sexual arousal. It is a perversion of the body’s passions. When we pervert these passions and intentionally use them for selfish, immoral purposes, we become carnal.

Masturbation is not physically necessary. There is already a way by which the male system relieves excessive spermatic fluid quite regularly through the nocturnal emission or wet dream. Monthly menstrual flow expels the female’s egg and cleanses the womb. For both sexes, physical or emotional tensions can be released by vigorous activity. Thus, in a biological sense, masturbation for either gender is not necessary. In a gospel sense, it is a sin: “Masturbation, a rather common indiscretion, is not approved of the Lord nor of His Church regardless of what may have been said by others whose ‘norms’ are lower. Latter-day Saints are urged to avoid this practice”.

To help your teenagers overcome these wicked influences, teach them that their bodies are good. Their bodies were created by the Lord, who declared that his work was good. The crowning phase of creation was to give Adam and Eve their bodies, fashioned in the image of their Redeemer. These bodies are not to be abused in any way. Paul taught:

“Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

“If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy, for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are” (1 Corinthians 3:16–17).

The scriptures often refer respectfully but plainly to the body and its parts. There is no embarrassment and often there is sacred symbolism. It is the world that makes the divinely created body an object of carnal lust. For example, it makes the female breasts primarily into sexual enticements, while the truth is that they were intended to nourish and comfort children. It promotes male sexual aggression in contrast to Christ’s example of tenderness, long-suffering, kindness, and steadfastness in the home.

Shame about the human body, its parts and purposes, is justified only when a person uses it for carnal purposes. Teach your children that they will find joy in their bodies when they use them virtuously after the manner taught by Christ. (Spencer W. Kimball, Love Versus Lust, Brigham Young University Speeches of the Year p. 22)

Obviously this talk was given to those of my faith. I don't demand that anyone who doesn't believe as I do must live as I do. It does go a long way towards explaining that it is possible to teach a child without shame.
and oh yeah, this is language intended to shame and can cause great harm and guilt to people, whether you realize it or not:

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When we pervert these passions and intentionally use them for selfish, immoral purposes, we become carnal.

To help your teenagers overcome these wicked influences

Shame about the human body, its parts and purposes, is justified only when a person uses it for carnal purposes.
people carry this stuff around with them, it's not just about "if you don't believe it, leave." especially your kids, who don't want to disappoint you. i have a friend who is seriously messed up and killing himself on the installment plan because he believes and has been told by his parents and the faith he believes in that he is perverted, selfish and immoral because of who he loves. it's really sad to watch
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#424 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 10:51 PM
 
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She really is a kind person who just beleives way differently than we do. Her thought process is that while she knows all men masturbate she wants to lessen the desire by circing...thinking that b/c the intact man has more sensitivity he will be more tempted.
I am not looking to fight her on it just to find ways to let her know that others teach their kids a differnt way...gently and without circing.
I know someone who was circumcised for the EXACT same reason. I haven't talked to him in a few months. Maybe I can find him so he can voice his opinion. His mom had him circumcised so that he wouldn't masturbate. When he found out about her reasoning he was so angry he didn't speak to her for many, many years. In fact, they never made up, and she ended up dying with him still bitterly angry about it.

He used to post on another message board. I'll try to find a few of his old posts and send you a private message.

~Nay

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#425 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 11:09 PM
 
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I haven't read the whole thread yet... very long! LOL
First to the OP's question or to her friend... my dh is circ'd and has masterbated pretty much since the onset of puberty... sort of like you are suppose to.

As a woman who wasn't to into masterbation as a teen, I wanted to add that I think I wish someone had told me about it or taught me or whatever. I don't think I would have had sex so early to get that feeling out of me. It also took years (and a few sex partners) to actually have an "O". Once I did, there was just no way I was going to have sex with out that being part of it. I am not OK with my partner getting to have one every single time and me only sometimes. So I figured out what worked so either he or I could make sure it happened. I am not sure how to explain this or get this across to my dd (I am sure my boys won't have a problem, lol as they seem to be Ok with it now. ) that getting to "know" yourself is a very important part of your future sex life. If you know what you need/want then it is easy to teach that to someone else. No need to spend years in frustration. Sex is a wonderful beautiful experience between two people, and there is no reason for someone to not enjoy it 100%.

H

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#426 of 472 Old 03-31-2007, 11:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by paquerette View Post
I'm also trying to figure out how you can use NFP to have "safe" sex at "safe" times of the month when you're pretty darn sure you're not going to conceive, if you're only supposed to be restricting sex to procreation? Either you believe NFP works and therefore you can't conceive and therefore you shouldn't be allowed to have sex, or you don't believe NFP works and therefore you're taking a chance at pregnancy so you might as well not chart. It seems like a catch-22, yanno?
You misunderstand me. You don't have to restrict sex to procreation. It must always be OPEN to the possibility of it (no matter how small) but not necessarily always seeking to achieve it. I believe NFP works and I can use it because it is 100% barrier-free. The sperm goes where the sperm is supposed to go, the egg releases whenever it's supposed to, and no chemicals or materials are interfering in the act.

An act that isn't actively working to intentionally prevent procreation is different, according to my Faith, than an act that is.
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#427 of 472 Old 04-01-2007, 12:03 AM
 
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i have a friend who is seriously messed up and killing himself on the installment plan because he believes and has been told by his parents and the faith he believes in that he is perverted, selfish and immoral because of who he loves. it's really sad to watch
I feel so bad for your friend. It really makes me sad that the religion he was raised in has made him have so little self-worth. Religion should lift one up spiritually and emotionally; for it to do the opposite is heartbreaking.
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#428 of 472 Old 04-01-2007, 03:08 AM
 
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I guess I don't understand why everyone is so stunned to learn about the Catholic view of sex and how it should always be open to procreation, and also only between married, heterosexual individuals.

Do you really all not know this? It's not a secret or anything. In any case, I'm not making a value judgment about the Catholic church....just sort of wondering why people are so shocked.
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#429 of 472 Old 04-01-2007, 03:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by charmander View Post
I guess I don't understand why everyone is so stunned to learn about the Catholic view of sex and how it should always be open to procreation, and also only between married, heterosexual individuals.

Do you really all not know this? It's not a secret or anything. In any case, I'm not making a value judgment about the Catholic church....just sort of wondering why people are so shocked.
are you saying masturbation=sexual procreation? I am confused?

I grew up catholic (and went to porocial school) and was never told masturbating was wrong. maybe I missed that message?

Blissful Mama to DD-(5), DS-(6) and someone new due in November!
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#430 of 472 Old 04-01-2007, 03:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by rainbowmoon View Post
are you saying masturbation=sexual procreation? I am confused?

I grew up catholic (and went to porocial school) and was never told masturbating was wrong. maybe I missed that message?
I actually didn't say anything about masturbation.

I just knew about the hetero-married sex for procreation only part of it. And I'm not even Catholic!
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#431 of 472 Old 04-01-2007, 03:21 AM
 
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Interesting. What were you told about masturbation from the church or nuns or priests?

I'm just curious, because I've tried to read and study different religions, or at least the history of different religions, and I learned this early on. I'm not Catholic, by the way.

I don't actually remember being told ONE THING about masturbation from the church/school. as far as I remember it was never mentioned to me! In fact don't remember ANYONE (as in adults,parents,etc.) actually talking to me about it at all ever as a child/teen! even friends I don't remember ever talking about it with! I feel it was so taboo to talk about (at least it was when I was growing up!)

wierd huh?

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#432 of 472 Old 04-01-2007, 03:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by charmander View Post
I guess I don't understand why everyone is so stunned to learn about the Catholic view of sex and how it should always be open to procreation, and also only between married, heterosexual individuals.

Do you really all not know this? It's not a secret or anything. In any case, I'm not making a value judgment about the Catholic church....just sort of wondering why people are so shocked.

nope, i can't say i knew all this in such detail :
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#433 of 472 Old 04-01-2007, 03:25 AM
 
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I actually didn't say anything about masturbation.

I just knew about the hetero-married sex for procreation only part of it. And I'm not even Catholic!
ah, my bad. I thought you were responding to my post about being shocked that people think masturbating is wrong. (religious or otherwise)

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#434 of 472 Old 04-01-2007, 06:05 AM
 
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I know someone who was circumcised for the EXACT same reason. I haven't talked to him in a few months. Maybe I can find him so he can voice his opinion. His mom had him circumcised so that he wouldn't masturbate. When he found out about her reasoning he was so angry he didn't speak to her for many, many years. In fact, they never made up, and she ended up dying with him still bitterly angry about it.

He used to post on another message board. I'll try to find a few of his old posts and send you a private message.

~Nay




and *that* is exactly why I think circumcision should be banned.
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#435 of 472 Old 04-01-2007, 10:27 AM
 
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I guess I don't understand why everyone is so stunned to learn about the Catholic view of sex and how it should always be open to procreation, and also only between married, heterosexual individuals.

Do you really all not know this? It's not a secret or anything. In any case, I'm not making a value judgment about the Catholic church....just sort of wondering why people are so shocked.
I have had dozens of Catholic friends over the years, I dated a Catholic man for two years, and I completed a year's worth of weekly catechumenate classes. I did not convert because in the end, I could not say that I could embrace all of what was taught, and the relationship ended soon after that.

But never once have I come across a viewpoint as "fundamental" (for lack of a better word) as what Sancta wrote in this thread. The limitations as to where male orgasm could occur, and the restriction on masturbation were never brought up. There was an optional course on natural family planning for those who were to be married after conversion, but neither I nor my boyfriend were interested and did not attend. That decision was never questioned by the priest who ran the class.

Every Catholic friend (to whom I am close enough to have discussed such things) uses birth control of some kind. And I know for a fact that the friend to whom I was closest (roommates in college) masturbated quite regularly.

So yes, I was surprised. I truly thought that Sancta was a member of a small fundamentalist church like several of those in my area.

--Olive
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#436 of 472 Old 04-01-2007, 10:45 AM
 
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Originally Posted by charmander View Post
I guess I don't understand why everyone is so stunned to learn about the Catholic view of sex and how it should always be open to procreation, and also only between married, heterosexual individuals.

Do you really all not know this? It's not a secret or anything. In any case, I'm not making a value judgment about the Catholic church....just sort of wondering why people are so shocked.
I have a lot of Catholics in my life and I hear few talking about the church having this level of involvement in their bedroom. I guess they just aren't good Catholics. :

eta: And, yeah, I thought you were talking about masturbation, as I was when I used the word stunned.
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#437 of 472 Old 04-01-2007, 10:59 AM
 
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I don't actually remember being told ONE THING about masturbation from the church/school. as far as I remember it was never mentioned to me! In fact don't remember ANYONE (as in adults,parents,etc.) actually talking to me about it at all ever as a child/teen! even friends I don't remember ever talking about it with! I feel it was so taboo to talk about (at least it was when I was growing up!)

wierd huh?
I most definitely remember it being taught in high school. In Morality class, in 11th grade, where we also learned of the Church's views on homosexuality, pre-marital sex, birth control, and abortion, and probably some other hot topics that I don't remember.

I don't think it's surprising at all that the Catholic Church teaches that masturbation is wrong. Sancta's post surprised me at the level of detail, I didn't realize the Chruch was that involved. I get surprised when I hear about people who listen to the Church when it comes to matters of the bedroom. I don't think it makes me less of a Catholic because my faith is what makes me a Catholic not whether or not I masturbate.
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#438 of 472 Old 04-01-2007, 11:11 AM
 
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Speaking as a male here, this mother is setting herself up for a ruined relationship with her sons. They'll eventually find out that she set out to ruin sex and sexuality for them and by then, it'll be common knowledge that circumcision reduces sensitivity for men.

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...X.2006.06685.x

I'm angry enough at my parents and their slimey doctor for damaging my sex life and they were just going for the bogus health reasons. My parents would be dead to me if I found out that they were purposefully out to destroy my sex life before it even began.
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#439 of 472 Old 04-03-2007, 11:44 AM
 
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Hot dog! This is quite the thread.

To take it back on topic: I have never before encountered a non-circumcised penis in a sexual partner, including my DH. I have had 10 sexual partners in my life, all circ'ed, and all of whom were enthusiastic proponents of self-stimulation. In fact, when I told my DH that after the 3rd degree tear that I received from childbirth it would be a good 8+ weeks or so before we could get back into the swing of things, he grinned and said, "that's OK, as long as you support my masturbation habit." (I'm sure that royally offends some mamas on this thread, but I found it funny . .. and a bit of a relief. I wanted a good long break from "marital relations"!)

I have never known a man not to engage in some degree of masturbation. So, your friend will not be assured of curtailing masturbation through circumcision.

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#440 of 472 Old 04-03-2007, 11:58 AM
 
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Catholicism is a religion with a heavy emphasis on the guidance and authority of the Church, so of course the Church has a duty to clearly explain her teachings. Whether or not Catholics hear about it or listen is another matter. Our parish has all of that information readily availble, and our priest has copies of the CCC and other sources available for us free of charge. I think there's been more of a push recently to educate adult catholics and more of an emphasis on the theology of the body.
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#441 of 472 Old 04-05-2007, 10:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by l_olive View Post
Every Catholic friend (to whom I am close enough to have discussed such things) uses birth control of some kind.

I think it is a generational thing. I'm in my 40's and the people I know my age who grew up Catholic all grew up with parents that did not use birthcontrol, however, all of them do use birthcontrol in creating their own families.

The position of the Catholic church is out of wack with the way that many/most catholics choose to live life, but it is well known among people my age. There is even a gag about it in Monty Python's Meaning of Life: "every sperm is sacred, and if one gets wasted, god gets quite upset."

I was raised southern baptist and was taught that masterbation is wrong (nothing they taught me really stuck, though ).

but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

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#442 of 472 Old 04-05-2007, 11:31 PM
 
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I have had dozens of Catholic friends over the years, I dated a Catholic man for two years, and I completed a year's worth of weekly catechumenate classes. I did not convert because in the end, I could not say that I could embrace all of what was taught, and the relationship ended soon after that.

But never once have I come across a viewpoint as "fundamental" (for lack of a better word) as what Sancta wrote in this thread.

...

Every Catholic friend (to whom I am close enough to have discussed such things) uses birth control of some kind. And I know for a fact that the friend to whom I was closest (roommates in college) masturbated quite regularly.
...
These things are generally not gone into in RCIA (and maybe they should be) but what Sancta wrote is entirely true of Church teaching. I converted to Catholicism before I married, and I know Catholics on both ends of the spectrum of opinions on birth control. For myself, well, I'm a theology student. I can't make NFP make sense to me. I don't totally agree with the Church's position on birth control and that's a major issue for me, actually. I have multiple sclerosis and repeated miscarriages. This pregnancy has been unbelievable harrowing, physically. I really don't think I could do it again, let alone go through the sheer number of miscarriages I had while we were ttc. The Church was not always so strict about birth control--it used to be between the individual and the priest, in the confessional, and nobody else's business. I really do think that was the better way.
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#443 of 472 Old 04-07-2007, 11:27 PM
 
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I would venture to guess that it is because at no time in our American history has sex been viewed in a truly positive light, and that most religious teaching about sexuality has been quite negative and repressive.

To ask all posters who have made the break from thinking that masturbation="impurity" to blithely ignore a couple centuries' worth of religio-historical precedent is a little disingenous, IMO. Seems that Christianity has always been deeply invested in controlling sexual expression through shame and guilt.

Though not particularly interested in controlling the gluttony and consumer- consumption of its congregants. The day I hear preachers calling upon congregations to forever abstain from masturbatory consumerism at Wally World will be the day I fall completely out of my chair.

But hey, that's just me.
Haven't read the whole thread, but, to the above:

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#444 of 472 Old 04-08-2007, 11:29 AM
 
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Catholics support and practice contraception at the same rate as the general public. Only something like 4% of catholics use NFP.
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#445 of 472 Old 04-08-2007, 06:22 PM
 
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Catholics support and practice contraception at the same rate as the general public. Only something like 4% of catholics use NFP.
I would certainly question their actual level of Catholocism then ~~ as far as I knew, the official Church doctrine on this is that contraception == eeeevviiiil.

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#446 of 472 Old 04-08-2007, 09:26 PM
 
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I would certainly question their actual level of Catholocism then ~~ as far as I knew, the official Church doctrine on this is that contraception == eeeevviiiil.
Yeah, that's the official doctrine, but not all catholics opt to follow it. The catholic church is also anti-divorce, but catholics have just about the same divorce rate as the general public.
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#447 of 472 Old 04-08-2007, 10:33 PM
 
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Yeah, that's the official doctrine, but not all catholics opt to follow it. The catholic church is also anti-divorce, but catholics have just about the same divorce rate as the general public.
This comment made me wonder what the stats are in Ireland, which is 90% Catholic. According to this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...fertility_rate

They have a lower birthrate than the US. They are 134 on the list. They must be using birth control!

but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

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#448 of 472 Old 04-09-2007, 01:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post
This comment made me wonder what the stats are in Ireland, which is 90% Catholic. According to this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...fertility_rate

They have a lower birthrate than the US. They are 134 on the list. They must be using birth control!

... or masturbating more!



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#449 of 472 Old 04-09-2007, 09:57 AM
 
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... or masturbating more!
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#450 of 472 Old 04-09-2007, 10:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Aura_Kitten View Post
... or masturbating more!



:
: : :

well, they don't circumcise over there, so you could be on to something....

but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

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