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#451 of 472 Old 04-09-2007, 02:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post
The position of the Catholic church is out of wack with the way that many/most catholics choose to live life
Well, that's not the point of the Church. If Catholics choose to ignore Church teachings, that doesn't make the church "out of wack (sic)" with them, it makes them out of whack with the Church. I don't mean that as a judgment on Catholics who don't follow certain Church teachings, but the Church isn't interested in winning popularity contests are bending to the will of society. The Church's position is unpopular, even amongst some Catholics, but that doesn't make them wrong (of course people are free to believe the Church is wrong, but I personally do truly believe the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit, so I accept her guidance even if it's difficult for me to understand. That's not to say I don't think or question, because I do).

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The catholic church is also anti-divorce, but catholics have just about the same divorce rate as the general public.
Sad, but true. But again, people not listening to the Church doesn't invalidate the Church's position. There are Jews who don't circumcise, that doesn't make that mitzvah (apologies if that's the wrong term!) out-dated or wrong, even if all of a sudden 90% didn't do it (not to start a debate on that, just trying to draw a parallel).
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#452 of 472 Old 04-09-2007, 09:45 PM
 
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There are Jews who don't circumcise, that doesn't make that mitzvah (apologies if that's the wrong term!) out-dated or wrong, even if all of a sudden 90% didn't do it (not to start a debate on that, just trying to draw a parallel).

I don't think that's an adequate parallel. The Catholic church recognizes the Pope as the head of the church, so what he dictates becomes church policy (I will not say I know how he makes his decisions: prayer, holy spirit, etc.). The Jewish faith has no similar way of dictating policy. Some Jews believe that the policies should change with the times (although circumcision seems to be one of the most widely observed mitzvoh). Some Jews don't believe this, but there is no organized head of the religion to make a determination.
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#453 of 472 Old 04-10-2007, 07:51 PM
 
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I don't think that's an adequate parallel. The Catholic church recognizes the Pope as the head of the church, so what he dictates becomes church policy (I will not say I know how he makes his decisions: prayer, holy spirit, etc.).
Just wanted to clarify that this isn't quite how it works. For Catholics, "matters of policy," aka disciplines, would include things like giving up meat on Fridays, the use of Latin in the Mass, etc. These are things that can be changed by the relevant authority -- whether it's the local bishop, or a Vatican official, or the pope himself.

The Church's teachings on birth control and masturbation come under the heading of "matters of faith and morals," not "policy." Catholics believe that these teachings (or at least the roots of them) have been part of our faith since the Church began. So, if the pope makes a statement on one of these subjects, he's not setting policy; he's simply expressing these established teachings in a way that he believes will be understandable to a contemporary audience. In some cases, he's also making an official declaration as to how these teachings apply in the context of new social developments and technologies (e.g., the Pill) -- but, again, this always has to be continuous with past teachings. He's not just making this stuff up on his own authority, nor does he have the power to change an established moral teaching.

(Not sure if that's what you were saying... again, just wanted to clarify. )


On a different note, a homosexual orientation isn't the only circumstance that would prevent someone from engaging in sexual activity, according to Catholic teaching. Here are some other people who could find themselves called to a celibate life, even if they wished otherwise:

- Single person with a serious disability, e.g. mental retardation, that would interfere with the person's ability to assume the demands of marriage and parenthood

- Single person with a mental illness that couldn't be controlled well enough to have a stable marital relationship

- Single person with a physical disability that involved impotence

- Single or widowed person who just doesn't find the "right" spouse

- Married couple; one spouse abandons the other. The abandoned spouse will not normally be able to remarry (since abandonment is not, in itself, grounds for annulment)

- Married couple: one spouse has to seek a separation, and possibly civil divorce, due to abuse (again, not always grounds for annulment)

- Married couple: one spouse is incapacitated due to severe physical or mental illness

- Couple who were never married in the eyes of the Church (i.e., civil divorce/remarriage situation). They experience a conversion and want to return to the faith, but it turns out to be impossible to regularize their current marital situation. In this situation, the Church teaches that they must either separate, or live as "brother and sister."

- Married couple: The wife's life would be in grave danger from another pregnancy, but, due to some physical quirk, NFP (even one of the most precise methods, such as Creighton) isn't going to work for them.

I'm sure there are others I haven't thought of. Anyway, when you add it up, that's a whole lot of people... and that's not even counting all those whose celibate life was freely chosen.

As Catholics, we don't believe that all these people are somehow "weird" or "inferior," just because they're not having sex. Each of us is equally beloved by God, part of His plan, and called to contribute to human society and the building up of His kingdom. For some of us, that includes genital activity, which is ordered toward one specific area of human life (marriage and family). This is an important and wonderful thing in its own context, but it's not essential to our overall identity or worth as human beings. Otherwise, those who were unable to engage in sexual relationships would be less valuable, or less fully alive, than those who are... which is a common perception in our society, and IMO a deeply unfair type of "discrimination" in itself.
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#454 of 472 Old 04-10-2007, 08:26 PM
 
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Uggh.


Unsubscribing from this thread because it's just continuing to make me disturbed and upset.
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#455 of 472 Old 04-10-2007, 10:37 PM
 
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I don't think that's an adequate parallel. The Catholic church recognizes the Pope as the head of the church, so what he dictates becomes church policy (I will not say I know how he makes his decisions: prayer, holy spirit, etc.). The Jewish faith has no similar way of dictating policy. Some Jews believe that the policies should change with the times (although circumcision seems to be one of the most widely observed mitzvoh). Some Jews don't believe this, but there is no organized head of the religion to make a determination.

I know there's no head in the way we have a Pope, but I was always under the impression that was a hierarchy in place to help guide people. Admittedly I know very little about the Jewish faith (unfortunately!), so apologies for being incorrect! I'm sure you got what I was trying to say, irregardless of the imperfect parallel.
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#456 of 472 Old 04-12-2007, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Does this sound harsh? or pretty good?

I just wantted to let you know that I have not given up trying to save your sons' foreskins

First off, I do want to let you know that I am not trying to change your belief about masturbation..I am only trying to give you some alternatives to circumcision.
If you feel compelled to change about masturbation that is your own choice and beleif system that you and (DH) can work on together (maybe even with clergy) however if it is not something you are interested in changing it is not something I am going to debate with you..those are your beliefs and I will respect them.

I am only interested in changing your mind about circumcision and I don't think one has anything to do with the other and there is plenty of research to support that. (haven't had time to gather the links but I will)

I am actually hoping that you will keep the idea alive that circumcsion is unecssary and cruel when you see your perfect baby boys. Look at them in thier wholeness and see if you really think an intact penis is gross. I think you wont anymore...you will see your boys in their whole bodies as God created them. Don't fear that when they grow up it would look ugly b/c you are probably not going to be seeing them and the circ rate in US is dropping...in leaps and bounds in many states so by the time your boys are old enough to be making love with anyone an uncirc'd penis will be pretty common...perhaps not the majority yet but really on it's way. We only see it as ugly b/c it is "different" than what we are used to. Many African men think uncirc'd women look ugly, too.

Each time you think of your reasons for circing a boy...think, "would I do this to girl?"

On the idea that that masturbation is a sin...
are you planning on cutting off hands to prevent stealing?
Poking out eyes to stop ogling women?
a labotomy to stop impure thoughts?

See if you continue to think you need to cut off a body part to stop sinning where does it stop?
Educating your children is the way to go...not cutting them

I hope you are still open to the idea of leaving your sons intact. Actaully I am praying that you are

Valerie

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#457 of 472 Old 04-12-2007, 06:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by hipumpkins View Post
Does this sound harsh? or pretty good?

I just wantted to let you know that I have not given up trying to save your sons' foreskins

First off, I do want to let you know that I am not trying to change your belief about masturbation..I am only trying to give you some alternatives to circumcision.
If you feel compelled to change about masturbation that is your own choice and beleif system that you and (DH) can work on together (maybe even with clergy) however if it is not something you are interested in changing it is not something I am going to debate with you..those are your beliefs and I will respect them.
I am only interested in changing your mind about circumcision and I don't think one has anything to do with the other and there is plenty of research to support that. (haven't had time to gather the links but I will)

I am actually hoping that you will keep the idea alive that circumcsion is unecssary and cruel when you see your perfect baby boys. Look at them in thier wholeness and see if you really think an intact penis is gross. I think you wont anymore...you will see your boys in their whole bodies as God created them. Don't fear that when they grow up it would look ugly b/c you are probably not going to be seeing them and the circ rate in US is dropping...in leaps and bounds in many states so by the time your boys are old enough to be making love with anyone an uncirc'd penis will be pretty common...perhaps not the majority yet but really on it's way. We only see it as ugly b/c it is "different" than what we are used to. Many African men think uncirc'd women look ugly, too.

Each time you think of your reasons for circing a boy...think, "would I do this to girl?"

On the idea that that masturbation is a sin...
are you planning on cutting off hands to prevent stealing?
Poking out eyes to stop ogling women?
a labotomy to stop impure thoughts?

See if you continue to think you need to cut off a body part to stop sinning where does it stop?
Educating your children is the way to go...not cutting them

I hope you are still open to the idea of leaving your sons intact. Actaully I am praying that you are

Valerie
I think I would leave out the part in red, it's not the point of your (I'm assuming) email, and kind of distracts from the point.
I'm also going to assume that you are going to add links to an anti-circ website in general, not just circ in relation to masterbation links. I know when I was researching, the biggest thing that impacted me was a video of a circ that was linked on a website. And the pictures. The visual images are what cemented my belief to be anti-circ. If you can find a way to gently suggest that she watch one before she has it done to her son, maybe that would help. (Btw, I'm LDS and don't "believe in" masterbation, but I'm still not going to circ my potential sons!)
I don't know about the part in purple either. It might be a wording issue. I understand your point, but I'm not sure if that's the way to phrase it. But I really like the line about Educating children instead of cutting them!
Hopefully, someone else will have more coherent advise!

HTH!

Wife to D (12/03) and totally smitten Mama to DD (4/05) DS (2/09) and expecting DD#2  6/23/11
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#458 of 472 Old 04-12-2007, 08:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Actually there were other emails from her that those particular things are referring to...It was in a thread that ended up being locked then edited.

I forgot thtat this isn't that thread...the other one was in CAC.


thanks for replying!

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#459 of 472 Old 04-13-2007, 01:29 AM
 
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I was going to say the exact same thing that Kelly did about the red part. Just take that out. She'll read that and tune out instantly. However, I really like the pink part - a lot!!
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#460 of 472 Old 04-13-2007, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
 
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In one of her emails she did say that she thought masturbation was a sin but she WISHED she didn't feel that way. That is what that particualr part is referring to. I am not trying to defend an email that I asked for critiques of I am just explaining why that is in there.

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#461 of 472 Old 04-13-2007, 11:46 AM
 
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[QUOTE=hipumpkins;7828007]you will see your boys in their whole bodies as God created them. [QUOTE]

I really like this sentence. I think that you should bold it or something. I think that emphasizing that her baby's body is perfect, exactly as god created it and intended it to be, is important.

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We only see it as ugly b/c it is "different" than what we are used to.
Has she even seen an intact adult penis? My DH is intact, and for me, it would be so weird to see a circumsized penis. (I guess it is just what you are used to!)

but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

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#462 of 472 Old 04-13-2007, 11:48 AM
 
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be making love with anyone an uncirc'd penis will be pretty common
I'd change this word to "intact."

but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

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#463 of 472 Old 04-13-2007, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I sent her a link from someone's sig with a video about what the foreskin is for and one of her responses was, "if only it didn't look so ugly"

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#464 of 472 Old 04-13-2007, 11:50 AM - Thread Starter
 
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"intact."

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#465 of 472 Old 04-13-2007, 12:17 PM
 
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I sent her a link from someone's sig with a video about what the foreskin is for and one of her responses was, "if only it didn't look so ugly"
Sometimes with people like this you just have to sit back. . . and give up. She's been given all the information she needs. As long as she's open to discussion, I guess I'd keep talking, but if those are her arguments, you're really just beating your head against a wall.
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#466 of 472 Old 04-13-2007, 01:15 PM
 
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i agree take out the red part all together. it doesn't matter to either of you weather or not she thinks masturbation is a sin. if she doesn't then it is isn't really part of her circ descision. if she does then she needs to be really clear that circ. will have no effect on it what-so-ever and that cutting off our childrens body parts do not keep them from sinning.

tell her not to worry about ugly - that a lot of women prefer them. and to some women it doesn't matter what has or has not been done to it, it is just not a pretty body part. Familiarity and function are the things! not to mention there are a lot of bothced circs. and thats not pretty.

otherwise i think it is good.

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#467 of 472 Old 04-13-2007, 01:20 PM
 
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I am not even sure if religions even still denounce it or not however a friend of mine is planning on circing her future twin boys b/c she believes uncirc'd men masturbate more and she is ...(A shocker to me)...opposed to masturbation. I think b/c of releigion. She is Episcopalain as am I but I never rmemeber anything ike that .

I do have a post in the case against circumcison http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=639328 but I am now looking for some ways to show her how she can respectfully teach her boys about not masterbating and that she doesn't have to circ them . So if you are against it and teach your children gently your beleifs could you help me help her.

You can jsut PM me if you don't feel like outing yourself. Thank you!
Its a bit creepy that a mother is thinking of how and when her sons will masterbate and trying to prevent them from doing so. I think there are other issues she needs to look.
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#468 of 472 Old 04-13-2007, 03:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The verdict is in..she is NOT going to circ. 2 baby boys saved.

Update in post 62

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...96#post7616196

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#469 of 472 Old 04-13-2007, 03:49 PM
 
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The verdict is in..she is NOT going to circ. 2 baby boys saved.

Update in post 62

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...96#post7616196
Woohoo! And I was ready to throw in the towel!
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#470 of 472 Old 04-13-2007, 06:31 PM
 
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woohoo!!!!!

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#471 of 472 Old 04-13-2007, 06:44 PM
 
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Yippie!! That's exciting!

Wife to D (12/03) and totally smitten Mama to DD (4/05) DS (2/09) and expecting DD#2  6/23/11
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#472 of 472 Old 05-20-2007, 06:15 PM
 
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If I were of a religious bent (which I'm not) I would say that masturbation is a preventative method for promsicuity. If I were teaching my children abstinence I would MUCH rather them masturbate than explore with a partner.

Since I'm not religious, I'll stick with the camp that it's our earliest and safest form of sexual exploration. It's comforting in a way, it's a physical release, and it's very relaxing. I have no shame in admitting that I did it at a very early age. The few times I've "caught" my DD doing it I've only told her it's something she should do in private, not in the living room (Not until she gets her own house anyway).

I'm also completely shameless in quoting Aura_Kitten in my sig. I almost hurt myself laughing when I saw that.

As far as preventing masturbation with circ, I think that's been disproven time and time again. If she's REALLY that worried about her sons masturbating, I'd say the issue goes a little beyond religion.
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