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#91 of 472 Old 03-27-2007, 07:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Brigianna View Post
Oh, sorry, that wasn't what I meant to ask. I didn't mean teaching negatively vs. positively. I meant, for those who find teaching chastity in and of itself sickening, why wouldn't they feel the same way about teaching to refrain from other natural behaviors. Not how it's taught. Does that make sense?
I doubt you will find anyone who finds chastity in and of itself sickening.
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#92 of 472 Old 03-27-2007, 07:58 PM
 
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Oh, sorry, that wasn't what I meant to ask. I didn't mean teaching negatively vs. positively. I meant, for those who find teaching chastity in and of itself sickening, why wouldn't they feel the same way about teaching to refrain from other natural behaviors. Not how it's taught. Does that make sense?
Oh, yeah. I misunderstood.

I will be teaching restraint in sexual matters, though I won't be teaching against masturbation in particular.

I will teach that one's body is meant to be shared with one's partner, not indiscriminately with strangers or half-strangers.

So I didn't really understand the question and can't actually answer it.

I was just upset by the "this is sinful" kind of references, like it's BAD to WANT to do these things. Which I don't believe it is, it's normal.
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#93 of 472 Old 03-27-2007, 07:58 PM
 
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Regardless, I'm not sure that negative feelings (such as shame or guilt) should always be avoided. I would liken it to pain. Pain is a wonderful thing. It teaches us that we should stop doing what we're doing and avoid doing it again. You've probably seen the stories of people who grow up without pain. It's a terrible existence for them. Feeling bad over an action (whether we call this feeling guilt, or shame, or godly sorrow, or something else) does the same thing for our souls.
That is a good point too. I think too often in our society we try to do away with negative feelings like guilt or pain, without realizing that they exist for a reason.
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#94 of 472 Old 03-27-2007, 08:00 PM
 
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Oh, sorry, that wasn't what I meant to ask. I didn't mean teaching negatively vs. positively. I meant, for those who find teaching chastity in and of itself sickening, why wouldn't they feel the same way about teaching to refrain from other natural behaviors. Not how it's taught. Does that make sense?
Eh, masturbation hurts... nobody. Hitting other people hurts other people. Stealing hurts other people. Calling names hurts other people.

Eating sugary junk before supper irritates Mom because Mom spent damn good time and money cooking that nutritious supper and you better eat it!!!

*channeling my grandma*

But you can certainly enjoy that sugary snack in an hour. I'm not forbidding sugar till the kiddo gets married in a decade. Also, sugar isn't a legitimate human need like sexual expression is.

Though perhaps I oughta inform my husband that his "need" for sex is all in his imagination. Let's see how long I stay married.
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#95 of 472 Old 03-27-2007, 08:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes View Post
Well, yeah, because there isn't some other vulnerable person who is being harmed by the action.
But to a young child, especially, it is the same thing. He wants to do something that mama/daddy/authority figure doesn't want him to do.



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I don't get how one can reconcile the attment to repress solo sex with also forbidding marriage to kids. Not that I'm in favor of marrying off 12-year-olds, but... sexual needs are real needs, too, y'know.

I just can't see blissfully and guiltlessly enjoying sex with my husband while my 14 year old writhes in unfulfilled sexual desire in the next room.
Hmm... maybe I would have a different view if I did see sex as a "need." But I don't think it is. Sure, it's fun, but there are lots of other non-sexual things out there... I don't think anyone has ever died from not getting any.



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I doubt you will find anyone who finds chastity in and of itself sickening.
Teaching chastity. Or whatever you want to call it.
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#96 of 472 Old 03-27-2007, 08:07 PM
 
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It's pretty much like Amris said. You teach them the natural consequences of masturbation and the positive reasons why we wouldn't want to do it.
What are the natural consequences of masturbation? :


eta - Aside from the obvious.
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#97 of 472 Old 03-27-2007, 08:09 PM
 
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That is a good point too. I think too often in our society we try to do away with negative feelings like guilt or pain, without realizing that they exist for a reason.
I dunno. We gots guild o' plenty and pain in this society. It's just about different things that I imagine you're thinking of.

Guilt over not being as skinny as we were ten years ago; guilt over having debt we can't afford; all kinds of Mommy Guilt out the wazoo... I'm having a hard time visualizing any positive outcome from those waves of contemporary human guilt.

And pain? You want to talk about pain? Talk to adult kids of divorce, talk to families bankrupted by medical bills, talk to families of alcoholics, talk to homeless people of all ages and races and walks of life, talk to the military families who haven't seen their mothers and fathers in months.

Oh yea, baby. We got plenty of pain, too. The King of Pain.

But what good has it served us?
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#98 of 472 Old 03-27-2007, 08:14 PM
 
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But to a young child, especially, it is the same thing. He wants to do something that mama/daddy/authority figure doesn't want him to do.





Hmm... maybe I would have a different view if I did see sex as a "need." But I don't think it is. Sure, it's fun, but there are lots of other non-sexual things out there... I don't think anyone has ever died from not getting any.
A kid old enough to masturbate is plenty old enough to need more reasoning than "because I said so." My two-year-old, yeah, he has to be forbidden things like knives because he doesn't know how not to cut off his own fingers yet (and wouldn't that inhibit his future masturbation? ) but when he's 14, it's not going to be enough to just impose my authority.

I guess sex-as-a-need depends on how strong one's sexual drive is. Mine is generally pretty dang overwhelming and powerful (even back when I was a very young homeschooled girl and not exposed to the mainstream media) but I've been on medications lately that turn sex into a much more desultory take-it-or-leave-it activity. More on par with eating a good steak or going for a leisurely walk.

My husband wants to know where his wife is and who this absentminded woman in his bed is. It's been... interesting... to have the volume on my sex drive turned down for the first time since I was ten or so.

Maybe the OP's friend oughta put her son on SSRIs when he turns eleven. THAT would come much closer to actually reducing temptation than cutting off his foreskin would.
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#99 of 472 Old 03-27-2007, 08:19 PM
 
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Plenty of things are "needs" that you won't necessarily die without.

One needs to be loved as a child. If they are not, they turn out psychologically damaged.

Relationships need sex, or they end up not lasting.

So, if you want the outcome of a healthy child, you give them love.

If you want the outcome of a sexually mature adult, you do not teach them to despise themselves for wanting sex.

If you want a long lasting marriage where your spouse remains faithful to you, you do your best to meet their sexual needs, because it is a genuine psychological need, ESPECIALLY for men. Men bond with their partner through sex.
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#100 of 472 Old 03-27-2007, 08:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes View Post
Well, yeah, because there isn't some other vulnerable person who is being harmed by the action.
Well, as for my religion, we don't believe that (I can't speak for the other religions represented here) We believe that the only proper place for the expression of sexual desires is within marriage. Masturbation would be hurting and betraying the future spouse. You might say "what if they never get married, so there is no future spouse?" We also believe that everyone who does not have the opportunity to marry in this life will be given the opportunity in the next, so there is always a future spouse involved.

It almost seems silly to continue this conversation, because none of you believe these things, and I don't believe what you believe So no matter what I explain about how and what I believe, you will probably want to continue trying to convince me that I'm weird and sick and oppressed and old-fashioned.
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#101 of 472 Old 03-27-2007, 08:26 PM
 
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How the heck does my husband's masturbating at 19 hurt me, nearly 20 years later? I have to say, I don't find it hurtful or betraying of our mutual love in any way.

Sooo, he used to be a teenage wanker. Means we have something in common.

It just doesn't make any sense.

And I'm not even a horny teenager anymore!
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#102 of 472 Old 03-27-2007, 08:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes View Post
Eh, masturbation hurts... nobody. Hitting other people hurts other people. Stealing hurts other people. Calling names hurts other people.

Eating sugary junk before supper irritates Mom because Mom spent damn good time and money cooking that nutritious supper and you better eat it!!!

*channeling my grandma*

But you can certainly enjoy that sugary snack in an hour. I'm not forbidding sugar till the kiddo gets married in a decade. Also, sugar isn't a legitimate human need like sexual expression is.

Though perhaps I oughta inform my husband that his "need" for sex is all in his imagination. Let's see how long I stay married.
That depends, of course, on your perspective. From a certain perspective, any sexual activity outside of marriage is "cheating" on your spouse or future spouse. Now, I understand that you don't share that belief, nor would I expect you to, but there is a basis for it. And what is a "legitimate" human need, as opposed to a want, is rather subjective.


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I dunno. We gots guild o' plenty and pain in this society. It's just about different things that I imagine you're thinking of.

Guilt over not being as skinny as we were ten years ago; guilt over having debt we can't afford; all kinds of Mommy Guilt out the wazoo... I'm having a hard time visualizing any positive outcome from those waves of contemporary human guilt.

And pain? You want to talk about pain? Talk to adult kids of divorce, talk to families bankrupted by medical bills, talk to families of alcoholics, talk to homeless people of all ages and races and walks of life, talk to the military families who haven't seen their mothers and fathers in months.

Oh yea, baby. We got plenty of pain, too. The King of Pain.

But what good has it served us?
Guilt and pain have not gone away, nor, in my opinion, can they ever, but they are seen as undesirable. It is considered desirable to have a pain-free guilt-free life. People do have guilt about having debt, gaining weight, etc., although I have my theories about that too... it is easier to feel guilt about gaining weight than to feel guilt about the vast economic iniquities in our world.



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A kid old enough to masturbate is plenty old enough to need more reasoning than "because I said so." My two-year-old, yeah, he has to be forbidden things like knives because he doesn't know how not to cut off his own fingers yet (and wouldn't that inhibit his future masturbation? ) but when he's 14, it's not going to be enough to just impose my authority.

I guess sex-as-a-need depends on how strong one's sexual drive is. Mine is generally pretty dang overwhelming and powerful (even back when I was a very young homeschooled girl and not exposed to the mainstream media) but I've been on medications lately that turn sex into a much more desultory take-it-or-leave-it activity. More on par with eating a good steak or going for a leisurely walk.

My husband wants to know where his wife is and who this absentminded woman in his bed is. It's been... interesting... to have the volume on my sex drive turned down for the first time since I was ten or so.

Maybe the OP's friend oughta put her son on SSRIs when he turns eleven. THAT would come much closer to actually reducing temptation than cutting off his foreskin would.
I wasn't suggesting "because I said so" as a presented reason, but just that for a young child, if you're asking him to refrain from something he wants to do, he isn't going to understand or particularly care about the distinction of whether or not you have some objective "good reason" for asking him to not bite the baby or to keep his hands out of his pants or to stay out of the road or to pick up his toys or....
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#103 of 472 Old 03-27-2007, 08:46 PM
 
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Plenty of things are "needs" that you won't necessarily die without.

One needs to be loved as a child. If they are not, they turn out psychologically damaged.

Relationships need sex, or they end up not lasting.

So, if you want the outcome of a healthy child, you give them love.

If you want the outcome of a sexually mature adult, you do not teach them to despise themselves for wanting sex.

If you want a long lasting marriage where your spouse remains faithful to you, you do your best to meet their sexual needs, because it is a genuine psychological need, ESPECIALLY for men. Men bond with their partner through sex.
Of course people should not teach their kids to despise themselves for wanting sex. They should not teach their kids to despise themselves for any reason. I don't agree that sex is a necessity for a relationship. It is necessary for a sexual relationship, of course, but a marriage, as I see it, is not only a sexual relationship. If I developed some disease that made sex impossible, I would certainly hope that my husband wouldn't leave me over it...
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#104 of 472 Old 03-27-2007, 08:47 PM
 
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That depends, of course, on your perspective. From a certain perspective, any sexual activity outside of marriage is "cheating" on your spouse or future spouse. Now, I understand that you don't share that belief, nor would I expect you to, but there is a basis for it. And what is a "legitimate" human need, as opposed to a want, is rather subjective.




Guilt and pain have not gone away, nor, in my opinion, can they ever, but they are seen as undesirable. It is considered desirable to have a pain-free guilt-free life. People do have guilt about having debt, gaining weight, etc., although I have my theories about that too... it is easier to feel guilt about gaining weight than to feel guilt about the vast economic iniquities in our world.





I wasn't suggesting "because I said so" as a presented reason, but just that for a young child, if you're asking him to refrain from something he wants to do, he isn't going to understand or particularly care about the distinction of whether or not you have some objective "good reason" for asking him to not bite the baby or to keep his hands out of his pants or to stay out of the road or to pick up his toys or....
But a kid THAT little isn't really masturbating in the classic sense of the word-- my two-year-old often sticks a hand in the dipe, but more, I imagine, for the curious sensation than for the release of actual sexual tension.

And while I agree that few people will escape the twin emotions of guilt and pain, I disagree that they are really productive ones. I'm really having a hard time thinking of any time in my life when I got anything truly meaningful done with shame or guilt or pain as a motivator.

And this from a woman who went to boot camp.

I also agree that there is a certain amount of gray area in the matter of what human needs are-- some people don't think newborn babies "need" to be picked up when they cry, and I get that, too. I just don't get dismissing it out-of-hand, as if sexual drive were just something like a passing craving for Marshmallow Peeps.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.
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#105 of 472 Old 03-27-2007, 08:54 PM
 
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Of course people should not teach their kids to despise themselves for wanting sex. They should not teach their kids to despise themselves for any reason. I don't agree that sex is a necessity for a relationship. It is necessary for a sexual relationship, of course, but a marriage, as I see it, is not only a sexual relationship. If I developed some disease that made sex impossible, I would certainly hope that my husband wouldn't leave me over it...
I would hope that if you had a disease and couldn't have sex, that you wouldn't demand your husband not gratify himself, or do your best to gratify him in that manner with alternatives.

I was unable to enjoy intercourse while pregnant due to health. But because I love my dh, I still did my best to meet his needs.

I don't think it's fair to ask him to suffer and to force his genuine, NONSHAMEFUL desires away just because he had the misfortune to be with me in a time when I was incapable physically of meeting those needs in the usual manner.

Why would you punish someone you love for your own illness? Having to go without sexual intimacy of any kind, without any fulfillment of that nature, while in a relationship, is punishing.

He's supposed to see you naked, he's supposed to be in a relationship with you, and not have desires? Or worse, it's okay for him to have them, but he has to squelch them and deal with it because of something not of either his or your making? :

That sounds like cruel and unsual punishment to me. That ought to be illegal!
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#106 of 472 Old 03-27-2007, 08:54 PM
 
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I don't agree that sex is a necessity for a relationship. It is necessary for a sexual relationship, of course, but a marriage, as I see it, is not only a sexual relationship. If I developed some disease that made sex impossible, I would certainly hope that my husband wouldn't leave me over it...
I would hope so, too, though it's far from uncommon. I don't hate the strayer, since I can thoroughly empathize with the plight of a person with no sexual outlet. Though I realize that this is scary for women, as our financial footing is often dependent on our mate's sexual fidelity.

Still, if I posted at MDC that ever since I went on SSRIs, I am just totally put off by my husband's sexual advances, I sincerely doubt that the unanimous reply would be, "eh, tell him to get over it till you come off your meds next year."

I'd probably be on the receiving end of a lot of advice to grin and bear it for the sake of his sexual needs. Or, as Amris suggests, to find alternative and mutually agreeable ways to meet his sexual needs.

Which I do. Because marriage is more than a stone-cold economic partnership. If I want to stay in this house and have an intact family unit, I know perfectly well that part of that bargain is providing sexual fulfillment for as long as I'm able-bodied. It's not a whim I can casually pass on, and it's not a whim he can pass on, either.

Hard job, but someone has to do it.

Anyway, yes, all of this suggests to me that sexual expression and fulfillment is a real need for human beings. I can't get down with telling a kid that this need doesn't exist or has to be delayed for a decade. What other healthy desire of my children would I try to squelch for so long?
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#107 of 472 Old 03-27-2007, 08:57 PM
 
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I would hope so, too, though it's far from uncommon. I don't hate the strayer, since I can thoroughly empathize with the plight of a person with no sexual outlet. Though I realize that this is scary for women, as our financial footing is often dependent on our mate's sexual fidelity.

Still, if I posted at MDC that ever since I went on SSRIs, I am just totally put off by my husband's sexual advances, I sincerely doubt that the unanimous reply would be, "eh, tell him to get over it till you come off your meds next year."

I'd probably be on the receiving end of a lot of advice to grin and bear it for the sake of his sexual needs.

Shoot, and most states do consider longterm alienation of affections to be a just cause for divorce, as I understand it. You're not livin' up to your end of the bargain, as it were.
Yeah, it's considered negligence.
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#108 of 472 Old 03-27-2007, 09:13 PM
 
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But a kid THAT little isn't really masturbating in the classic sense of the word-- my two-year-old often sticks a hand in the dipe, but more, I imagine, for the curious sensation than for the release of actual sexual tension.

And while I agree that few people will escape the twin emotions of guilt and pain, I disagree that they are really productive ones. I'm really having a hard time thinking of any time in my life when I got anything truly meaningful done with shame or guilt or pain as a motivator.

And this from a woman who went to boot camp.

I also agree that there is a certain amount of gray area in the matter of what human needs are-- some people don't think newborn babies "need" to be picked up when they cry, and I get that, too. I just don't get dismissing it out-of-hand, as if sexual drive were just something like a passing craving for Marshmallow Peeps.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.
No, it's a stronger desire than that, but I do think it is a stretch to call it a need. But, perhaps discussion of want or need is beside the point. It is a choice.

Pain and guilt can be useful in people's decision making. Much of the guilt that is promoted today is completely nonproductive. It does no good to feel guilty about things beyond their control. But if more people felt a sense of guilt about how they treated other people, I do believe the world would be a better place. Guilt is minimized and treated as a disease so that people don't have to face the reality that they may be doing wrong.
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#109 of 472 Old 03-27-2007, 09:21 PM
 
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But to a young child, especially, it is the same thing. He wants to do something that mama/daddy/authority figure doesn't want him to do.
If you honestly think kids explore their bodies to spite their parents, we might as well pack it up and go home. :



And I can understand not wanting your kid to spank it at the kitchen table.
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#110 of 472 Old 03-27-2007, 09:27 PM
 
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I would hope that if you had a disease and couldn't have sex, that you wouldn't demand your husband not gratify himself, or do your best to gratify him in that manner with alternatives.

I was unable to enjoy intercourse while pregnant due to health. But because I love my dh, I still did my best to meet his needs.

I don't think it's fair to ask him to suffer and to force his genuine, NONSHAMEFUL desires away just because he had the misfortune to be with me in a time when I was incapable physically of meeting those needs in the usual manner.

Why would you punish someone you love for your own illness? Having to go without sexual intimacy of any kind, without any fulfillment of that nature, while in a relationship, is punishing.

He's supposed to see you naked, he's supposed to be in a relationship with you, and not have desires? Or worse, it's okay for him to have them, but he has to squelch them and deal with it because of something not of either his or your making? :

That sounds like cruel and unsual punishment to me. That ought to be illegal!
I don't have the authority to "punish" him. But, yes, he promised to be faithful to me in sickness and in health, so I would expect him to do that. As he would expect me to do if he were sexually incapacitated in some way. Our relationship is about so much more than just sex. If he threw that away just for some sex, I would not be at all sympathetic.


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I would hope so, too, though it's far from uncommon. I don't hate the strayer, since I can thoroughly empathize with the plight of a person with no sexual outlet. Though I realize that this is scary for women, as our financial footing is often dependent on our mate's sexual fidelity.

Still, if I posted at MDC that ever since I went on SSRIs, I am just totally put off by my husband's sexual advances, I sincerely doubt that the unanimous reply would be, "eh, tell him to get over it till you come off your meds next year."

I'd probably be on the receiving end of a lot of advice to grin and bear it for the sake of his sexual needs. Or, as Amris suggests, to find alternative and mutually agreeable ways to meet his sexual needs.

Which I do. Because marriage is more than a stone-cold economic partnership. If I want to stay in this house and have an intact family unit, I know perfectly well that part of that bargain is providing sexual fulfillment for as long as I'm able-bodied. It's not a whim I can casually pass on, and it's not a whim he can pass on, either.

Hard job, but someone has to do it.

Anyway, yes, all of this suggests to me that sexual expression and fulfillment is a real need for human beings. I can't get down with telling a kid that this need doesn't exist or has to be delayed for a decade. What other healthy desire of my children would I try to squelch for so long?
There is a lot of cultural sympathy for men in this position, less so for women, who are expected to be faithful as Penelope. But I have no sympathy who tosses aside a meaningful relationship for cheap sex. I'm not talking about economics, but about the emotional and spiritual bond between two people. I can understand compromising and going along to satisfy him, but not giving him the okay to go elsewhere. Of course, if somebody wants to, that's her own business, but it won't stop me from thinking the other person is a cad. Although I should confess that I have a personal bias here...
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#111 of 472 Old 03-27-2007, 09:31 PM
 
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If you honestly think kids explore their bodies to spite their parents, we might as well pack it up and go home. :



And I can understand not wanting your kid to spank it at the kitchen table.
Of course they don't do it to spite their parents. I didn't say they want to do it because parents don't want them to. I meant that a young child does not usually understand the why of a parent's teaching, and so to distinguish between a "good reason" and "just because" is not a distinction that is going to be very meaningful to a young child.
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No, it's a stronger desire than that, but I do think it is a stretch to call it a need. But, perhaps discussion of want or need is beside the point. It is a choice.
I dunno. I'd put sexual expression right up there with regular human conversation. Absolutely essential to one's mental and emotional health, and before anyone poo-poos the newfangled notion of emotional health, think of how it'd feel to be locked in solitary confinement for a year or two.

Most of us would go completely crazy after a week or two without human contact.

That's how I'd feel about being told that seeking sexual satisfaction is "sinful" and wrong.

Anyway, I don't know how it is that we can get so righteous about how married mens' legit sexual needs, while basically pretending that they don't really exist for teenagers. It's weird. I hope teenagers are still ignoring it all as blissfully as they did back in my day. It takes a bunch of old married women to get this fired up about masturbation, I guess.
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#113 of 472 Old 03-27-2007, 09:35 PM
 
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I dunno. I'd put sexual expression right up there with regular human conversation. Absolutely essential to one's mental and emotional health, and before anyone poo-poos the newfangled notion of emotional health, think of how it'd feel to be locked in solitary confinement for a year or two.

Most of us would go completely crazy after a week or two without human contact.

That's how I'd feel about being told that seeking sexual satisfaction is "sinful" and wrong.

Anyway, I don't know how it is that we can get so righteous about how married mens' legit sexual needs, while basically pretending that they don't really exist for teenagers. It's weird. I hope teenagers are still ignoring it all as blissfully as they did back in my day. It takes a bunch of old married women to get this fired up about masturbation, I guess.
I would very politely ask you please not to use this particular analogy.
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#114 of 472 Old 03-27-2007, 09:37 PM
 
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There is a lot of cultural sympathy for men in this position, less so for women, who are expected to be faithful as Penelope. But I have no sympathy who tosses aside a meaningful relationship for cheap sex. I'm not talking about economics, but about the emotional and spiritual bond between two people. I can understand compromising and going along to satisfy him, but not giving him the okay to go elsewhere. Of course, if somebody wants to, that's her own business, but it won't stop me from thinking the other person is a cad. Although I should confess that I have a personal bias here...
Hey, who says sex is cheap? Seems unnecessarily negative... In my world, that stuff generally comes with a major pricetag anyway. The guy follows you around like a lost puppy for the next several weeks, at the least.

And you don't have to dump economic and emotional obligations to a longterm partner just because you're seeking sex elsewhere, but that's not really the point. After all, the able-bodied partner still has a working hand, as it were.

But man, if I had a buck for every devotedly-married-but-not-dead sort I've met on my travels, I'd be able to afford an hourly-rate hotel room. The Japanese kind, with the chrome-plated vending machine room-key dispenser.

If you know what I mean, ladies.

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#115 of 472 Old 03-27-2007, 09:39 PM
 
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I would very politely ask you please not to use this particular analogy.
Er, okay. I'm not being lighthearted about solitary confinement, though. I'm being quite serious. Denial of sex is a very serious business to me.
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#116 of 472 Old 03-27-2007, 09:44 PM
 
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I am a survivor of solitary confinement. It is not remotely comparable to sexual frustration. Please talk about something else, so that I can read this calmly.
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#117 of 472 Old 03-27-2007, 09:48 PM
 
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I don't have the authority to "punish" him. But, yes, he promised to be faithful to me in sickness and in health, so I would expect him to do that. As he would expect me to do if he were sexually incapacitated in some way. Our relationship is about so much more than just sex. If he threw that away just for some sex, I would not be at all sympathetic.
Unfortunately, sex is how men rebond with women. It is the same as if your DH were to treat you coldly and refuse to meet your need for loving touching and caressing. If he were to never bother to show you emotional caring and compassion.

Very rare is the person who intends to stray. It almost always happens because their needs are being met. And that almost always happens because the other person refuses to see the fact that it is, indeed, a NEED.

It is part of a relationship for a reason.

Ask yourself this. If it's not a need, if it's not that important, then why the stress on it? Why would you feel like he is "throwing it away" if he has sex with someone else? Sex isn't that important, right?

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There is a lot of cultural sympathy for men in this position, less so for women, who are expected to be faithful as Penelope. But I have no sympathy who tosses aside a meaningful relationship for cheap sex. I'm not talking about economics, but about the emotional and spiritual bond between two people. I can understand compromising and going along to satisfy him, but not giving him the okay to go elsewhere. Of course, if somebody wants to, that's her own business, but it won't stop me from thinking the other person is a cad. Although I should confess that I have a personal bias here...
What's the big deal? It's only sex, and if there's no need for sex in the marriage, why is there a need for sexual fidelity?

I don't mean this rudely, but please make up your mind... sex is important, or it's not. It's important enough to do without the person if they find it elsewhere, but not important enough to meet their need in order to not do without them?

If it weren't a deeply integral and deeply valued thing, you wouldn't care if it happened elsewhere.

Yet, you very obviously do care, quite rigorously, quite stringently. In fact, to all appearances, you would be quite livid if it happened elsewhere, and you'd leave over it.

Yet, you think that depriving the other person of it is a little thing? That it's not a "need" for them to have sex, yet it is a "need" for them to have sexual fidelity?

Hmm.... :
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#118 of 472 Old 03-27-2007, 09:51 PM
 
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i'm speechless. not at the OP's friend, but at the very ideas on this thread that contribute to her line of thinking.


reminds me of the studies showing teens who want to be "pure" in all respects end up being the ones who don't use any protection in the heat of the moment.
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#119 of 472 Old 03-27-2007, 09:54 PM
 
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Very rare is the person who intends to stray. It almost always happens because their needs are being met. And that almost always happens because the other person refuses to see the fact that it is, indeed, a NEED.
I disagree. It happens very often when the person's needs ARE being met. I was in a relationship where we were DTD 6 days a week. Guess what I found out he'd been doing on the 7th day every week? :
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#120 of 472 Old 03-27-2007, 09:54 PM
 
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I'm sorry. I'm not out to make light of anything, aside from things I am obviously making light of.

That being said, I think there are obviously a lot of totally legit human needs that that we won't die without. Not on the outside, anyway, but on the inside, where it counts the most.

I have every reason to think sexual expression is actually one of them. You meet some pretty messed up people with a lifetime of severe sexual repression behind them... I'm not interested in seeing that promoted as a virtue.
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