If you religiously oppose masterbation... - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 472 Old 03-21-2007, 11:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I am not even sure if religions even still denounce it or not however a friend of mine is planning on circing her future twin boys b/c she believes uncirc'd men masturbate more and she is ...(A shocker to me)...opposed to masturbation. I think b/c of releigion. She is Episcopalain as am I but I never rmemeber anything ike that .

I do have a post in the case against circumcison http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=639328 but I am now looking for some ways to show her how she can respectfully teach her boys about not masterbating and that she doesn't have to circ them . So if you are against it and teach your children gently your beleifs could you help me help her.

You can jsut PM me if you don't feel like outing yourself. Thank you!

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#2 of 472 Old 03-21-2007, 11:38 PM
 
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I know that there are some rules in the old testament about 'spilling of the seed' and here's what wikipedia says:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onanism



Just to give you a bit of background....

Kate: fumbling through the best years with W, L, F & V...newest arrival coming Jan '11
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#3 of 472 Old 03-22-2007, 12:27 AM
 
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I teach and encourage my chidlren towards purity in thoughts and action. this includes masturbation. i have never made it a big deal, treat it kinda like picking thier nose, . . . knock it off and go wash your hands . . . an undesirable habit (we will talk more about it when they are older) that shouldn't be indulged.

I don't know how to approach the circumcision thing except to tell her it isn't going to help. i am pretty sure every man on the planet masturbates. circed or not. She needs to get a real perspective on this from real men. Poor girl, she is going to be severly shocked and dissapointed. perhaps that actually will help her. If she wants them to abstain form all sexual impurity (I think more people are concerned about what is going on in ones mind during the act rather than the act) teaching is the only thing that will do it. But snipping the end hasn't slowed any man down yet. . . .

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#4 of 472 Old 03-22-2007, 02:05 AM
 
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How absurd. sorry. but really.
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#5 of 472 Old 03-22-2007, 02:07 AM
 
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That's just sad. I don't think you're going to get a lot of support for your friend on this board. Maybe I'm wrong.

:Mama to 2 :
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#6 of 472 Old 03-22-2007, 09:07 AM
 
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That's just sad. I don't think you're going to get a lot of support for your friend on this board. Maybe I'm wrong.
She isn't looking for support for her friend, she's looking for a way to save her friend's son from a completely unnecessary surgical procedure.

I think Lilyka's approach is good.

I could definitely see shaming in this matter causing some serious sexuality issues.
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#7 of 472 Old 03-22-2007, 09:10 AM
 
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FWIW, the Episcopal church doesn't teach against masturbation.

Not that helpful, I know, but it's all I've got.
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#8 of 472 Old 03-22-2007, 09:42 AM
 
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I know that there are some rules in the old testament about 'spilling of the seed' and here's what wikipedia says:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onanism



Just to give you a bit of background....


The "old testament" you refer to refers to spilling the seed, and does *not* refer to any effort that gets one to the point of seed spilling. First of all.


And it has absolutely nothing to say about women, BTW. Zip. Nada. Zilch.


Just for the record.
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#9 of 472 Old 03-22-2007, 09:47 AM - Thread Starter
 
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She isn't looking for support for her friend, she's looking for a way to save her friend's son from a completely unnecessary surgical procedure.
EXACTLY!!!

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#10 of 472 Old 03-22-2007, 10:05 AM
 
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I don't know anyone who circs for religious reasons that used masterbation as one reason. I think that's just bizarre. And never heard of that reason until I came here.

Interesting to note, virtually all males in dh's country are circed. Dh is religiously opposed to masterbation, but when he was in the military he certainly saw a lot of circumcised guys doing it. If someone told him that avoiding masterbation was a reason to circ, he'd laugh.
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#11 of 472 Old 03-22-2007, 12:10 PM
 
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If the guy I dated in college and DH are any indication, going by your friend's "logic", then noncirced guys must be doing nothing but masterbating.

In other words, being circed certainly didn't seem to slow them down back in our youth.

:

"What will you do once you know?"
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#12 of 472 Old 03-22-2007, 01:13 PM
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I don't oppose it so I can't help you there but I can agree with the others in this regard --- no man I have ever known has *not* masturbated -- and most of them have been circ'ed -- it certainly is no deterrent (sp) ...

Besides, I wonder why or how your friend thinks she can prevent masturbation -- does she plan to be in every bath, shower, private room, locker room, bedroom, by thier sides every single moment they would otherwise be alone (not that they will masturbate that whole time obviously, but pointing out there are plenty of opportunities) ...

She could shame them of course but I have always wondered why people seek to have that kind of control over what someone else does with their own bodies in the privacy of their own mind/space --

Oh yeah, the whole "you will burn in hell" thing.... gotcha...

I really hope you can reach your friend before she does something so drastic and unneccesary and which probably won't prevent anything she is trying to prevent.
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#13 of 472 Old 03-22-2007, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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She really is a kind person who just beleives way differently than we do. Her thought process is that while she knows all men masturbate she wants to lessen the desire by circing...thinking that b/c the intact man has more sensitivity he will be more tempted.
I am not looking to fight her on it just to find ways to let her know that others teach their kids a differnt way...gently and without circing.

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#14 of 472 Old 03-22-2007, 01:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Meiri View Post
:
If the guy I dated in college and DH are any indication, going by your friend's "logic", then noncirced guys must be doing nothing but masterbating.

In other words, being circed certainly didn't seem to slow them down back in our youth.

:


I was thinking the same thing. And this is probably not what you're looking for, but it's not really her decision whether her children maturbate or not- it's theirs. Maybe there's a delicate way to show her that...?
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#15 of 472 Old 03-22-2007, 02:06 PM
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She really is a kind person who just beleives way differently than we do. Her thought process is that while she knows all men masturbate she wants to lessen the desire by circing...thinking that b/c the intact man has more sensitivity he will be more tempted.
I am not looking to fight her on it just to find ways to let her know that others teach their kids a differnt way...gently and without circing.

I apologize if I offend -- but I agree with eli's_mommy -- it really isn't her decision and something she will have no control over anyway except to use her love and influence to shame them in some way or make them feel badly for what are (imo) are natural feelings....

I honestly hope if she is a kind woman, that this is something she leaves up to God in prayer.

I am a Christian and I believe God made us in his image... with foreskin (males I mean)... I pray she changes her mind, I really do.
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#16 of 472 Old 03-22-2007, 02:22 PM
 
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She really is a kind person who just beleives way differently than we do. Her thought process is that while she knows all men masturbate she wants to lessen the desire by circing...thinking that b/c the intact man has more sensitivity he will be more tempted.
I am not looking to fight her on it just to find ways to let her know that others teach their kids a differnt way...gently and without circing.
Maybe explaining that they don't know what they're missing will mean that they'll masturbate just as much.

The circed man has no basis of comparison, so all he knows is that touching that part of his body feels good. Maybe it doesn't light up the entire world with fireworks, but it doesn't have to, all it has to do is feel good.

And the part that feels the best is not touching himself, but orgasming. So unless she thinks that circing will stop him from orgasming, then she is not removing the real purpose and intent of masturbation, anyway....

No one masturbates just to touch themselves. Male or female, we all do it because orgasms feel good.

Masturbation is not about anything else, at the end of the day.

The only way she'll get them to do it less often, outside of teaching them, is to make them into eunichs, because that's the only way to prevent orgasm.
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#17 of 472 Old 03-22-2007, 02:57 PM
 
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Okay, I wasn't clear. I just think it's so incredibly said to make a child feel badly for doing something that will come naturally.
I think that what some of the previous posters have said might help. Man was created in God's image so don't chop anything off.
Or just say that having foreskin won't increase the chances of him masturbating.

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#18 of 472 Old 03-22-2007, 03:27 PM
 
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I posted more extensively about this in the circ thread. I just wanted to say that my religion (LDS) is against masturbation. We will teach that to our kids, but we will NOT use shame or guilt to do so. I'm not sure how we'll do it, but that's my plan. We do not believe that sex or sexual feelings are dirty or wrong - just that there is one proper place to express them (after marriage, between a man and a woman). If our children choose not to believe the same way we do, they will not be guilted, outcast, or otherwise.
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#19 of 472 Old 03-22-2007, 10:01 PM
 
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I just think it's so incredibly said to make a child feel badly for doing something that will come naturally.
Teaching a child that something is wrong does not have to mean making them feel bad about it. Think of all the things that come naturally to children that we teach them are wrong - selfishness/self-centeredness, greed, etc.
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#20 of 472 Old 03-23-2007, 09:54 AM
 
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it think i weird to think about your unborn sons mastrubating in the future and how you could prevent it..... don't flame me maybe she feels guilty for mastrating herself....yeh
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#21 of 472 Old 03-23-2007, 01:39 PM
 
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I'll put this here instead of in the CAC thread, but I'm also LDS and believe that masturbation is a sin. That said, I'm also wholeheartedly anti-circ. I'll be honest and say that when I was first dipping my toes into the circ issue, and came here and saw the praises of how much better being intact makes masturbation....I was hesitant. Nervous, even. But logic prevailed and like others have argued, losing a foreskin does not equal losing the ability to masturbate. So just like everything else, I will need to teach my son(s) right from wrong, and let him make his choices based on what he learns from me. I haven't reached that point yet, as he's only 18 months, so I don't have any first-hand experience.

But the foreskin definitely has quite a lot of value between a man and a woman, and that is not something I would ever ever ever take away in a (vain) attempt to curtail temptation for the few years between puberty and marriage. There is a way for sins to be forgiven, but there is not a way to take back circumcision. Children need to be taught how to 1) resist temptation and 2) how to deal with things when they do make mistakes. It's not right to take away any God-given gift in an attempt to save them from themselves. God doesn't do that to His children, we shouldn't do it to ours.

Now, in dealing with the idea that masturbation is a sin, maybe your friend needs more guidance about how to react to that sort of situation as her son grows.

There is a wonderful wonderful publication that the LDS church has, called A Parent's Guide. You don't have to be LDS to order it, and it's only $3.50.

A Parent's Guide is 52 pages full of ways parents can help their children learn healthy attitudes about their bodies, sexuality, and intimate relationships. It is all about gentleness, love, understanding...basically if Christ himself were to teach your children about their bodies, this is the attitude He would have, IMO. It definitely has the LDS gospel perspective in it, so take that into account as you read from the quotes I post.

A few quotes from it that I really like:
"The relationships that you build with your children during their early years will have a tremendous influence on the way they feel later about developing their own intimate relationships. While your children are very young, you can teach them the value of loving and being loved. During this period, you should also be careful to react properly to your young children's discoveries of their bodies."

Joseph F. Smith quoted within the book, addressing fathers:
"For your own sake, for the love that should exist between you and your boys - however wayward they might be...when you speak or talk to them, do it not in anger, do it not harshly, in a condemning spirit. Speak to them kindly; get them down and weep with them if necessary and get them to shed tears with you if possible. Soften their hearts; get them to feel tenderly toward you. Use no lash and no violence, but...approach them with reason, with persuasion and love unfeigned..."

"One of the first things he begins to discover is his body. Male and female children will naturally discover and explore their genitals just as they do the rest of their bodies. The male infant's genitals are very sensitive to touch. His penis responds to his diaper and to his parents' touch as they bathe and clothe him. He will often touch and rub his own genitals. ... Your reaction to these natural explorations will influence the way a child later feels about his procreative powers. Do not either worry about or encourage the child's explorations. Remain neutral, and the child will accept that these parts of his body are good, just as the other parts are."

"It is important that you teach your children about sexuality. The Lord has given the responsibility for the teaching of children to parents, and this is one area where children need accurate and morally correct information. The subject of sexuality is discussed so openly in today's world that your children cannot avoid hearing about it. .... In matters of human sexuality, honesty and accuracy are important. .... Rationally answer, question, or seek sources of information together with the child. If ever there is a crucial time for open parent-child communication, it is during such conversations. This does not mean that you should force the child to confront details. The child's own pace is usually the best indicator of how and when to proceed."

"Masturbation is considered by many in the world to be the harmless expression of an instinctive sex drive. Teach your children that the prophets have condemned it as a sin throughout the ages and that they can choose not to do it. Throughout childhood, boys and girls have touched their own genitals frequently to wash and to dress. This is a behavior that usually has the same meaning as keeping one's feet warm in the winter, enjoying a swim on a hot day, or scratching an itch. We ought to be friendly to our bodies and appreciate the body's marvelous range of senses. This innocent touching is not the kind of behavior warned against by prophets through the ages. The sin of masturbation occurs when a person stimulates his or her own sex organs for the purpose of sexual arousal. ....
Masturbation is not physically necessary. There is already a way by which the male system relieves excessive spermatic fluid quite regularly through the nocturnal emission or wet dream. Monthly menstrual flow expels the female's egg and cleanses the womb. For both sexes, physical or emotional tensions can be released by vigorous activity. Thus, in a biological sense, masturbation for either gender is not necessary."

"The scriptures often refer respectfully but plainly to the body and its parts. There is no embarrassment and often there is sacred symbolism. It is the world that makes the divinely created body and object of carnal lust. For example, it makes the female breasts primarily into sexual enticements, while the truth is that they were intended to nourish and comfort children. It promotes male sexual aggression in contrast to Christ's example of tenderness, long-suffering, kindness, and steadfastness in the home.
Shame about the human body, its parts and purposes, is justified only when a person uses it for carnal purposes. Teach your children that they will find joy in their bodies when they use them virtuously after the manner taught by Christ."

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#22 of 472 Old 03-23-2007, 04:37 PM
 
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losing a foreskin does not equal losing the ability to masturbate
Yup, that. All issues of morality, circ debate, etc aside, the bottom line is that circumcision doesn't prevent boys/men from masturbating.

I've heard it given as a reason for circ before, but only in historical context, not as a modern reason - it's one of the reasons why circ became such a big deal in the US to start with, but it's a very outdated reason and completely erroneous.

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#23 of 472 Old 03-23-2007, 04:37 PM
 
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If anyone is interested in reading a Christian perspective that is not anti-masturbation, a good site to check out is www.themarriagebed.com and check out the forums. Masturbation is never specifically called sinful in the Bible (which I feel is rather telling, God doesn't forget things). Onan's sin was that he did not follow God's law and give his dead brother an heir, not that he "spilled his seed." There are different interpretations of this passage, but I tend to think Occam's razor applies here. Everything else seems convoluted.

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#24 of 472 Old 03-23-2007, 04:42 PM
 
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Do you think she's even remotely open to considering that masturbation isn't a sin, but certainly is appropriate to have boundaries on it? Like most ppl here, we teach Henry that touching his penis is something to do done privately, in the bathroom or in his own room when he's alone. We give him the option to remove himself at any time to do so, so it's not a banishing thing or anything.

Or is she absolutely, fundamentally opposed to it without any chance that she will find flexibility?

I'm sorry you're struggling with this, I respect other people's beliefs, but sometimes I just don't understand them at all.

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#25 of 472 Old 03-23-2007, 04:44 PM
 
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Masturbation is never specifically called sinful in the Bible (which I feel is rather telling, God doesn't forget things).
In my case it's not based on a Biblical belief
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#26 of 472 Old 03-23-2007, 04:45 PM
 
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Yup, that. All issues of morality, circ debate, etc aside, the bottom line is that circumcision doesn't prevent boys/men from masturbating.
I think we can all agree to that, with no reservations!
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#27 of 472 Old 03-23-2007, 05:09 PM
 
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Curious. Do you know if your friend would circumcise her daughters to prevent masturbation?

“Research published last year in the British Journal of Urology may well explain the links between circumcision, frequent masturbation and oral sex, however. A group of doctors headed by Dr. John R. Taylor at the University of Manitoba discovered that the sheath of foreskin tissue removed during circumcision is filled with extremely sensitive nerve endings and mucus membrane cells. The head of the penis itself is extremely insensitive to light touch, although it can be stimulated by heavy touch, they found. That lack of sensitivity in the head of the penis may well account for an increased need by circumcised men for the more intense stimulation that masturbation and oral sex can provide, according to Dr. Robert Van Howe...”
http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org



Sigh

I shouldn't be even writing to this threat, it absolutely breaks my heart like children are treated sometimes. Like they are some showdogs to cut and shape to please us adults.:

Obviously people have not much changed since these kind of medical comments;

"There can be no doubt of [masturbation's] injurious effect, and of the proneness to practice it on the part of children with defective brains. Circumcision should always be practiced. It may be necessary to make the genitals so sore by blistering fluids that pain results from attempts to rub the parts."

[Angel Money. Treatment Of Disease In Children. Philadelphia: P. Blakiston. 1887:421.]
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#28 of 472 Old 03-24-2007, 01:30 AM
 
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I was also going to recommend themarriagebed.com

Here's are articles from there about masturbation:
http://www.themarriagebed.com/pages/...alledsin.shtml
http://www.themarriagebed.com/pages/...tdiscuss.shtml

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13yo ds   10yo dd  8yo ds and 6yo ds and 1yo ds  
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#29 of 472 Old 03-24-2007, 08:22 AM
 
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I'm curious where she got the idea that masturbation is sinful. As frog wrote, the Episcopal Church generally doesn't teach that, however, there may be a few out of the mainstream conservative parishes that might.

I'm also curious where your friend got the idea that uncirc-ed boys masturbate more than circ-ed boys. Like others have said, I'm sure she's wrong about that. I'd challenge her on that assumption if you don't want to challenge her religious belief.
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#30 of 472 Old 03-24-2007, 10:16 AM
 
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Most westerners feel that female circ. is horrid and barbaric, so perhaps pointing out to her that she is using the same reasoning that those who practice it would have an impact on her.

Cutting off part of another person's body in an attempt to control their behavoir is cruel.

I think that there are a lot more issues in store for her children, because I think a parent who is willing to cut off part of their child's body to keep them from *sin* sounds like they could easily be emotionally and possibility physically abusive.

but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

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