Catholic - Confession Question - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#61 of 81 Old 04-25-2007, 08:09 PM
 
Therese's Mommy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NEPA
Posts: 1,999
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzywan View Post
I think you may have misread the conversation here - or you are being deliberately obtuse and offensive.

This is what is so aggravating with these dicussion - there are always some "participants" that misconstrue events and end up sounding like sanctimonius PITAs. I own the Catechism and have 16 years of Catholic education under my belt - that incudes 4 years at a Jesuit University. While I may not be a professional theologian, I am very well acquainted with Catholic dogma and doctrine. And I *still* disagree with some of it. So, you can quit with the pearl clutching and deal with the fact that not every Catholic falls in lockstep with Rome.

Seriously, I hope some of you are not in ministry because I would hate for a person, struggling with their faith, to come across some of the attitudes I've seen in here.

An unexamined faith is not worth practicing.
I was not intending to be either offensive or obtuse. I was just trying to clear up a misconception about a teaching of the Church. I read your post to mean that you (and most likely others) believed that a woman must die if she is faced with a condition in which continuing to carry the baby would kill her. If I misunderstood your post then I am sorry, but I would not be surprised if even if I did misunderstand what you were saying that there are others out there who do believe this. If I did not misunderstand your post, then I am surprised that you would be upset to learn that the Church is not demanding this of women. As for my comment about the Catechism, I have often come in contact with people who have a beef with the Church about one thing or another, but when we look at it further they have a beef with something that the Church does not espouse in the first place. I find there to be many misconceptions about the Church. I was hoping to point people to a resource they may not be aware of or one in which they think they would have to walk into a Catholic bookstore to purchase. I think debate about the teachings of the Church are good, but I find it frustrating when what is being debated is not what the Church actually teaches. The point of my post was only to educate.

As for being sanctimonious, I am not sure if this was directed at me or not, but I will address it anyway. The definition of sanctimonious is to be hypocritically pious or devout. There is nothing in my post that is in any way hypocritical and since you do not know me in real life, I am not sure you are able to make the decision as to whether or not I am. I am Catholic, I follow all the teachings of the Church with great joy, I do not see how this is hypocritical. In that same vein, I am not sure you are able to determine who here lives an examined faith life or not. I spend more time thinking, talking, and practicing my faith than I do anything else, fwiw.

As for Catholics not falling in lockstep with Rome, this is something that has always been curious to me. I do not understand why someone would want to label themselves "Catholic" if they do not believe in what the Church teaches. I would think that when someone does not believe in some entity, like the Church, they would not want to be associated with it. For example, I have alot of admiration for the Orthodox Jews. There is a sizeable community in my neighborhood. I think their sense of community and family life are beautiful. Also, since we both have the Old Testament in common I do have alot of beliefs in common with them. But, they do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, so I would not want to call myself a Jew as I do not hold one of their core beliefs. Abortion and contraception are biggies in the Church and I think it would be very hard to want to be labeled Catholic if I disagreed with the Church on these points.

I do not think that name calling has any place in a discussion, especially one between adults, therefore, I will not be posting in this thread anymore. If anyone wishes to discuss this with me further please pm me, but I will not be answering any pms that are nasty.

Beth

Beth wife to Tom and mommy to Therese 11/4/04 Anna Mary 6/15/07 and Veronica 10/20/09
Therese's Mommy is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#62 of 81 Old 04-25-2007, 11:01 PM
 
suzywan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 709
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)

me, my man, and our boys (1/08 and 3/11)
 

suzywan is online now  
#63 of 81 Old 04-25-2007, 11:32 PM
 
Arduinna's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 31,187
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
suzywan, I hope you start posting more often. 114 posts in 3 years is not enough. I want to hear more of what you have to say.
Arduinna is offline  
#64 of 81 Old 04-25-2007, 11:35 PM
 
suzywan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 709
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Thanks Arduinna. I'm generally more of an observer than participator, but I'm working on it.

I erased my previous post cause I didn't want to come across as inflammatory.

me, my man, and our boys (1/08 and 3/11)
 

suzywan is online now  
#65 of 81 Old 04-25-2007, 11:42 PM
 
Arduinna's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 31,187
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I think it's really important that the full variety of views be heard from members of any religious group. It's a disservice to those of us peering in from the outside to only hear from one side.
Arduinna is offline  
#66 of 81 Old 04-26-2007, 12:58 AM
 
attachedmamaof3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,494
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I just want to say that my family has quite unfortunately fallen away from the church after we moved to a different state and have had a really hard time bonding with the clergy in our area...we've tried several different churches and it's just NOT THE SAME as our old comfy one! I've also neglected Reconciliation for 3 yrs now : seriously...because I just can't bring myself to confess to these priests who I don't know and am not bonded with....have any of you had this happen?? I mean, you form a really close bond to your confessor over the years and it's hard to start all over again with someone new. I guess I just gave up. *sigh*
attachedmamaof3 is offline  
#67 of 81 Old 04-26-2007, 04:02 AM
 
BusyMommy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 9,605
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hmmm I guess it concerns me to hear so many people concerned about why Catholics could feel free to question the Catholic Church; ie. how DARE we think for ourselves. I suppose I see this as paradigmatic of life in general. God created men and women and gave us free will. He also gave us a sociey within which to live and rules and customs to help us govern ourselves. I don't think anyone would argue that it would be a very rare state that has survived intact & unchanged based on its original teachings but I'll stop there b/c I almost used the verb "evolved" and that's a whole 'nuther discussion.

I don't obey. I hope to God my kids aren't being raised to obey. We are educated and we make informed decisions. I went to 12 years of Catholic school and graduated to work in Catholic missions. Yep, I'm still a Catholic. And, throughout all those Catholic years I have seen sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many different examples of the living faith. We're not all the same. Our churches/parishes aren't all the same. Our priests aren't all the same. Our lives and our choices aren't all the same. I'm not asking the Cathl. church to redefine itself but I do realize and understand that yes, the Church is alive and growing and loving.

Sorry, off topic but not really bc I don't feel the need to do penance every week for silly, venial, things like not folding the laundry or cutting someone off in traffic, etc. BUT, I also 100% respect those for whom weekly or annual reconciliation is a vital part of their spiritual life.
BusyMommy is offline  
#68 of 81 Old 04-26-2007, 11:32 AM
 
BundleFishMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Philadelphia suburbs
Posts: 1,483
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Therese's Mommy View Post
As for being sanctimonious, I am not sure if this was directed at me or not, but I will address it anyway. The definition of sanctimonious is to be hypocritically pious or devout. There is nothing in my post that is in any way hypocritical and since you do not know me in real life, I am not sure you are able to make the decision as to whether or not I am. I am Catholic, I follow all the teachings of the Church with great joy, I do not see how this is hypocritical. In that same vein, I am not sure you are able to determine who here lives an examined faith life or not. I spend more time thinking, talking, and practicing my faith than I do anything else, fwiw.

As for Catholics not falling in lockstep with Rome, this is something that has always been curious to me. I do not understand why someone would want to label themselves "Catholic" if they do not believe in what the Church teaches. I would think that when someone does not believe in some entity, like the Church, they would not want to be associated with it. For example, I have alot of admiration for the Orthodox Jews. There is a sizeable community in my neighborhood. I think their sense of community and family life are beautiful. Also, since we both have the Old Testament in common I do have alot of beliefs in common with them. But, they do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, so I would not want to call myself a Jew as I do not hold one of their core beliefs. Abortion and contraception are biggies in the Church and I think it would be very hard to want to be labeled Catholic if I disagreed with the Church on these points.


Beautifully put. Couldn't have said it better myself!

Kerriintactlact.gif blessed single mama to Teresa 8/2/02blahblah.gif, Madeleine 5/28/04dust.gif, Andrew 6/25/06jammin.gif, and Isabelle ribboncesarean.gif11/27/08energy.gif

BundleFishMama is offline  
#69 of 81 Old 04-26-2007, 01:13 PM
 
Unagidon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,629
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
As for Catholics not falling in lockstep with Rome, this is something that has always been curious to me. I do not understand why someone would want to label themselves "Catholic" if they do not believe in what the Church teaches.
An old Jesuit once put it to me this way. The reason it is called the Catholic Church is because it is a catholic church. There's room for everybody.

The number of the basic tenets of the Church is small. There is a VAST range of actual belief. Even along the basic (general Christian) divide of whether the laws of God are arbitrary and simply need to be followed OR are part of a natural law that point the way to living the best possible life, there are still the basic questions of what laws are applicable in what way to what circumstances OR how are we to understand what constitutes the best possible life. For people who consult the catechism, there is a very large difference between the old Baltimore Catechism (as it was called) and the one put out under John Paul II. And there is the encyclical Veritatis Splendor by that pope, which talks about the importance of asking these kinds of questions; questions that would not exist if everything had been settled into a dogma.

So to your point, the Church teaches that we are to bring to bear the light of reason on these things, precisely because we as humans do not automatically know what they mean. So there is no lock step. And that, at least, is dogma.
Unagidon is offline  
#70 of 81 Old 04-26-2007, 01:38 PM
 
suzywan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 709
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unagidon View Post
An old Jesuit once put it to me this way. The reason it is called the Catholic Church is because it is a catholic church. There's room for everybody.

The number of the basic tenets of the Church is small. There is a VAST range of actual belief. Even along the basic (general Christian) divide of whether the laws of God are arbitrary and simply need to be followed OR are part of a natural law that point the way to living the best possible life, there are still the basic questions of what laws are applicable in what way to what circumstances OR how are we to understand what constitutes the best possible life. For people who consult the catechism, there is a very large difference between the old Baltimore Catechism (as it was called) and the one put out under John Paul II. And there is the encyclical Veritatis Splendor by that pope, which talks about the importance of asking these kinds of questions; questions that would not exist if everything had been settled into a dogma.

So to your point, the Church teaches that we are to bring to bear the light of reason on these things, precisely because we as humans do not automatically know what they mean. So there is no lock step. And that, at least, is dogma.

Well said.

me, my man, and our boys (1/08 and 3/11)
 

suzywan is online now  
#71 of 81 Old 04-26-2007, 01:44 PM
 
BusyMommy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 9,605
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I remember my 7th grade theology teacher (Priest) explaining that "one catholic and apostolic church" celebrates that our Catholic faith embraces all.

And, quick note, I asked my current priest about limbo when I had a miscarriage. He explained that the Church no longer teaches Limbo; ie. it has grown and evolved.
BusyMommy is offline  
#72 of 81 Old 04-27-2007, 10:56 PM
 
Peppermint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: work-in-progress
Posts: 5,288
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzywan View Post
Cold comfort to orphans. But that's her deal - not mine.
This made me cry: , I could be the mama she was referring to, I chose to follow the teachings of my faith as, more important than anything in this life, will be seeing my children in Heaven.

Also- FWIW, NFP is highly effective, and ---Doctors don't know everything. I cannot tell you the number of women I have met who were told by Dr.s that they would DIE if they got pregnant again/ didn't abort, etc.

I am not piping in to re-start the argument, just to express sadness over how *my* choice was potrayed as *less-than-loving* to my children. My children are my life.

:Patty :fireman Catholic, intactalactivist, co-sleeping, GDing, HSing, no-vax Mama to .........................:..........hale:
Peppermint is offline  
#73 of 81 Old 04-28-2007, 12:46 PM
 
suzywan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 709
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
That's why I said her deal, not mine. You can do whatever you want according to your ideals, and I will act according to mine. Not everyone is going to agree with you actions, that's life.

If you believe what you are doing is *right* why the tears?

me, my man, and our boys (1/08 and 3/11)
 

suzywan is online now  
#74 of 81 Old 04-28-2007, 01:01 PM
 
Peppermint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: work-in-progress
Posts: 5,288
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzywan View Post
That's why I said her deal, not mine. You can do whatever you want according to your ideals, and I will act according to mine. Not everyone is going to agree with you actions, that's life.

If you believe what you are doing is *right* why the tears?
I'm sad that a fellow Catholic mama would be so lacking in kindness, compassion, and so judgemental of another mama choosing to follow Church teaching. Are you quite proud that you would make someone in my position hurt? You seem majorly lacking in compassion and charity here, but- maybe that is me just being sensitive, because- we all know if someone's feelings get hurt it is because they have made the wrong choice: .

My children will NOT be orphaned.:

I am sorry I can't properly explain why your statement hurts so....... I am also sorry I would have to explain it.

:Patty :fireman Catholic, intactalactivist, co-sleeping, GDing, HSing, no-vax Mama to .........................:..........hale:
Peppermint is offline  
#75 of 81 Old 04-28-2007, 05:44 PM
 
BundleFishMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Philadelphia suburbs
Posts: 1,483
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Patty

Kerriintactlact.gif blessed single mama to Teresa 8/2/02blahblah.gif, Madeleine 5/28/04dust.gif, Andrew 6/25/06jammin.gif, and Isabelle ribboncesarean.gif11/27/08energy.gif

BundleFishMama is offline  
#76 of 81 Old 04-28-2007, 09:54 PM
 
shelbean91's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 9,290
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Patty- I'm sorry you're saddened by the remark, but I didn't read it the same way you read it at all. It's a different choice. You choose one way, someone else chooses another- each right for the individual choosing. Tom-a-to, tom-ah-to. I read it as choosing to drive home taking one route vs another. Not saying 'you're bad for making a bad choice' but 'ok, you're choosing different from me- not what I would do, but I'm glad you're comfortable with your choice.

Michelle -mom to Katlyn 4/00 , Jake 3/02, and Seth 5/04
shelbean91 is offline  
#77 of 81 Old 04-29-2007, 04:44 AM
 
Peppermint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: work-in-progress
Posts: 5,288
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Michelle- well, it's nice that you read it that way, I might have, had it not mentioned me making my children orphans, I can't find any "just a different choice" in that, IMO, that was just plain mean. I really don't see how it isn't simply cruel.

As luck would have it, many kind PMs from loving mamas here (even those who wouldn't make my choice) show that I am not alone in how I read it, and show that even in disagreement, there can be kindness and charity.

:Patty :fireman Catholic, intactalactivist, co-sleeping, GDing, HSing, no-vax Mama to .........................:..........hale:
Peppermint is offline  
#78 of 81 Old 04-29-2007, 02:19 PM
 
shelbean91's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 9,290
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
But you don't think you're orphaning your kids, do you?

Anyway, I'm not going to debate the intent of someone else's words- I just wanted to mention I didn't see the intent behind the words that you saw.

Michelle -mom to Katlyn 4/00 , Jake 3/02, and Seth 5/04
shelbean91 is offline  
#79 of 81 Old 04-29-2007, 04:03 PM
 
suzywan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 709
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
FWIW, I meant it in the manner Shelbean described it. People have told me I'm endangering my immortal soul by using BC - You, Peppermint, even intimated it. Others have told me I should just leave the Church. Completely rude and uncalled for, but it is my choice - their choice is different. Some think I'm on the short and fast road to damnation, I think they may be making a poor choice, too. Tom-ay-to, Tom-ah-to, indeed.

Anyway, these conversations happen all the time around here. Just the other day I saw clear reference to formula being poison and *killing* babies. Here on MDC - the bastion of tolerance. :

And, just as a reminder, pregnancy = death isn't just refering to a medical condition, either. Homicide is the leading cause of death for pregnant women.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter...=522184&page=1

Peppermint, I never meant to accuse you of purposefully putting you life in danger in the pursuit of heaven, abandoning your children in the process. I was being rhetorical and mashing a bunch of different scenarios into one for the sake of argument. This is Religious Studies - I would never say such a thing in the Catholic Mamas thread, or any other support thread. Please take this as an honest apology.

That said, it is *my* firm belief that a benevolent and merciful God would not require a woman to choose between her life and the potential for life, regardless of circumstances. And certainly would never condemn her for making that difficult choice. Others here are saying He would. I cannot reconcile with that, not for an instant.

me, my man, and our boys (1/08 and 3/11)
 

suzywan is online now  
#80 of 81 Old 04-29-2007, 05:13 PM
 
Peppermint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: work-in-progress
Posts: 5,288
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzywan View Post
This is Religious Studies - I would never say such a thing in the Catholic Mamas thread, or any other support thread. Please take this as an honest apology.
I appreciate the apology. I am of the firm belief that "Religious Studies" or support forums, User Agreement or not, that people should *attempt* to be charitable. I find a HUGE difference between "I would not make that choice" or even "I think that choice is just plain wrong" or "I don't believe that choice is God's will" are *very* different from "cold comfort to orphans". It really wasn't that you disagreed with God's will for me (as I and others clearly disagree with your POV), it was "cold comfort to orphans" that was hurtful, hence my reason for quoting just that part and saying it hurt.

FWIW- I believe this whole discussion implies that NFP is not effective or the healthiest choice. On a "Natural Family Living" site, I would think more credence would be given to "natural" ways of doing things. I know lots of people think I am risking my kids' lives by not vaccinating, for example, but- I expect, here at MDC, for people to understand that the unnatural ways of most of the world are not always the best choice, even though they are touted as so.

I believe our Church's insistence on the Natural Law is one of It's greatest beauties and, I do not share the belief that a bunch of men could care less about women's lives/bodies/health, etc. I believe the priest who counseled me to use NFP instead of ABC cares immensely for me in many ways. I also believe the Church's focus on the Blessed Virgin Mary show an enormous reverence for women, much moreso than other Christian religions.

Of course, all of this is off-topic and I apologize to the OP for that. The OP question has been well answered a few times. I just want to add that, for me, confession is a BEAUTIFUL sacrament, one I am so thankful for and get so much from utilizing. I hope to teach my children to see it as a Blessing and not a burden to be used as minimally as possible. It really is a beautiful thing

:Patty :fireman Catholic, intactalactivist, co-sleeping, GDing, HSing, no-vax Mama to .........................:..........hale:
Peppermint is offline  
#81 of 81 Old 04-29-2007, 05:44 PM
 
suzywan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 709
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I admit I was being flippant - in an argument I don't care for the old "well, I know this woman and she blah, blah, blah". If we're introducing anecdotal evidence it should at least be first person.

I agree that the teachings of the Church regarding the body and human sexuality are beautiful - they're just not very practical. Which, I don't think they've ever claimed to be, anyway.

Also, I've never used BCPs or other hormonal BC and I never will. I tried to use NFP, but my husband (agnostic) was too freaked and insisted on condoms. So, in effect *I* wasn't using any ABC - he was - and that is not inconsistent with his beliefs.

*But* that is my specific circumstance - I would have thrown away *any* BC on my wedding night if I'd have had my way I have wanted a baby for *forever*. But, it's not just my decision, of course. And your circumstance is special as well - every individuals is. That is why I do not agree with wholesale condemnation of BC. I do not know what is in the heart of each individual woman, so I leave it up to her to make those decisions. I trust women to make the right decisions for their lives.

So, to practice what I preach, I am rescinding my "cold comfort to orphans". I won't erase it, though, cause I think that would be dishonest to everyone reading.

me, my man, and our boys (1/08 and 3/11)
 

suzywan is online now  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off