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#61 of 245 Old 06-19-2007, 03:29 AM
 
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What merpk said.
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#62 of 245 Old 06-19-2007, 06:24 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks mamaverdi and merpk for the clarification. I know that my current vocabulary will need re-tuning too.


2bluefish- I like the idea of not looking at it as right vs. wrong. I have been calling it a journey but am/was hung up on that terminology. It's part of my over-analyzing personality . I like looking at things concretely and figuring out where I can change or improve.
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#63 of 245 Old 06-19-2007, 09:27 AM
 
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Great thread. I'm learning


Lexy ask ,
Quote:
I am glad that you and your husband are enjoying the conservative synagogue. What appeals to you most? Is it very different from your previous reform synagogue?


.
YES, it is VERY different. Almost all Hebrew, good, (No I do not know it, but plan to learn.) So right there it feels more Jewish.?. kwim? And we feel like........we're in a holy place. (Not to say a lot of reform congregation are not...ok, this is just my feelings.) And this is big, the people are so nice to us. Everyone is so accepting, and loving towards the kids. I was afraid it would be to much of a change for our 14 y old, but it's not.


We have been attending the reform congregation for about 16 1/2 yrs. I don't want to step on any toes. So I'll just say, I think we're just growing. And I'm sure the main rabbi at the reform temple has a lot to do with the way we feel.

So, I'm loving this thread, seeing how others are changing. The only bad thing for me, most classes of any type don't start until the fall. So any book suggestions from anyone about going from Reform to Conservative?? tia
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#64 of 245 Old 06-19-2007, 12:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Good for you Anna. I smiled as I read your post. You will have to keep us updated on your Hebrew classes. Maybe we can be online study buddies . I will probably start my classes in the Fall too.

It's nice to keep growing. Life really is a journey.
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#65 of 245 Old 06-19-2007, 02:18 PM
 
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Just wanted to clarify something here. The Reform movement also (like the rest of the Jews) does not believe that "Y'shua" is the messiah. They also do not believe that he or anyone else messiah-like is "returning." Belief in a messiah "returning" is a Christian one. It is *not* a Jewish concept and is totally antithetical to any Jewish belief system.
Of course - I made it pretty blatantly clear that "Y'shua" did not fulfill the prophesies, so he cannot be called "THE" messiah. I only mean that it would be lovely if this person so many believe so fervently is the messiah did come back, and did fulfill the prophesies. (Reincarnation is not antithetical to the Jewish belief system.)

But more importantly in my eyes is the fact that Christians don't only claim Y'shua/Jesus to be messiah, but to be God.
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#66 of 245 Old 06-19-2007, 02:35 PM
 
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2bluefish- I like the idea of not looking at it as right vs. wrong. I have been calling it a journey but am/was hung up on that terminology. It's part of my over-analyzing personality . I like looking at things concretely and figuring out where I can change or improve.
This was something hard for me to get over when I first started out. In Christianity everything is black or white - this is right, this is wrong, this is what this verse means, etc. So my first impulse was to just start trying to learn a whole new set of rules and doctrines. The first synagogue we attended while we lived in WI was conservative; it was very small and they didn't have a rabbi, only a cantor. I was quibbling over the understanding of some mitzvah, and the cantor said - it's not like that. Judaism isn't like that - you don't have to figure it all out today. There are rooms for lot's of interpretations - it's a journey. It was like this huge weight just lifted off my shoulders. For years my thinking had been directed very rigidly by a fundamentalist religion - and now I am free to think for myself. Our rabbi here in TX was raised Orthodox and leads a very observant life, but he considers himself Reform, because he believes in a personal journey, being inclusive, and letting people start growing from where they are at. We never thought we would join a Reform congregation. When we were in grad school in IN, the Reform synagogue was very secular and not very spiritually minded at all. But when we met this rabbi and this congregation, we got a different look at Reform Judaism. We have all kinds of Jews in our congregation from very observant to very secular. Our community is small, so we *have* to stick together and it makes for a very wonderful community. We feel very much loved and appreciated. It's nice to be a part of a community.
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#67 of 245 Old 06-19-2007, 04:14 PM
 
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Good for you 2bluefish, feeling a part of your community is key. If you belong, I believe you will grow. Your journey will continue.

And I never throught about it, but your also right on the whole deal about right vs wrong.

There is a lot of room to grow, and Lexy we will have to help each other out. So, what are you reading now?

I'm trying to get my 11 yr old in Jewish Day School. Wow, it is so expensive, but I know if dc gets in, it will benefit the whole family. I know other families that go there and everyone says it is a life changing event. (?)
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#68 of 245 Old 06-19-2007, 09:09 PM
 
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I only mean that it would be lovely if this person so many believe so fervently is the messiah did come back, and did fulfill the prophesies. (Reincarnation is not antithetical to the Jewish belief system.)
My understanding though is that most C'ians do not believe in Reincarnation, and that the second coming is not the Messiah born again as a baby. At least from my being raised as a C'ian and from my C'ian parents.

So it just really doesn't work from a Judaism stand point.

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But more importantly in my eyes is the fact that Christians don't only claim Y'shua/Jesus to be messiah, but to be God.
Hmmmm....well, I'm not sure whether this is more or less important. It's part of the same whole.
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#69 of 245 Old 06-19-2007, 10:17 PM
 
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I'm confused mamaverdi - why would we give a crap what Christians think about reincarnation? I don't remember ever saying "I think it would be lovely if Christianity is *right* and Y'shua comes back in the clouds and fulfills all the prophesies." Noooo, never said that. I never said, "I think it would be lovely if the "second coming" as defined by Christians was correct." What I am saying is belief in Y'shua (Jesus) has been a source of some good in this world (and an excuse for some bad too - granted), and I would like to see a joining of those true believers of both faiths some day. There is quite a movement of "believers" coming out of Christianity and converting to Judaism - and from a reincarnation standpoint it does make one ponder if the Lost Tribes aren't returning. All musings of course, nothing to hang a faith on - just musings...

And the idea of a prophet "returning" is not foreign to Judaism - we pour a cup for Elijah at the passover seder and prepare a seat for him at our brit milahs, because we believe he will come back some day. The lovely thing about Judaism is that we can ponder and consider ideas and mysteries, and we are totally free to do so - and we don't have to know it all or understand it all or make up our mind one way or another about what things mean.

I say the Jesus as God thing is more troublesome because worshipping a man as God is idolatry, in direct opposition to the Torah.
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#70 of 245 Old 06-19-2007, 10:41 PM
 
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This ignores the fact that in Judaism, Jesus is not seen as a prophet. So how his returning would fit in with Jewish though about Eliahu (Elijah), I'm not sure?
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#71 of 245 Old 06-20-2007, 12:01 AM
 
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OK, I will clarify this one point, and then y'all are going to have to just let me be. It was just a simple musing, and not a point of doctrine for me at all - and from my POV, I'm *clearly* being totally misunderstood.

In Judaism - to my understanding - Jesus is seen as a Jewish man, a teacher - maybe a rabbi. The point about Elijah is to address the fact that it was stated that "nobody messiah-like is returning." The point I was making that it is not a concept foriegn to Jewish thought to think of a person returning.

I clearly stated in my first post on this subject that I do not believe that Jesus is God or Messiah - that I completely agreed with an Orthodox source on this subject - so what's to quibble with??? You don't like the idea of Christians being brought to the God of Israel in some cosmic plan? Fine, whatever floats your boat.
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#72 of 245 Old 06-20-2007, 01:03 AM
 
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So we can't disagree and discuss? Where's the fun in that, Jewishly speaking?
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#73 of 245 Old 06-20-2007, 02:28 AM
 
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No offense meant and yes, can't we discuss? I do think that there is a divergence of thought here. Traditional Jewish thought is not that Jesus was a rabbi and teacher, but one who went "off". There are Talmudic references to this if you'd like me to look them up for you. Does that help you to see where *we* are coming from?
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#74 of 245 Old 06-20-2007, 02:58 AM
 
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And just to add a little levity. I personally think every Judaism-practicing person should see this hilarious song/video.
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#75 of 245 Old 06-20-2007, 08:01 AM
 
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What would it be lovely if the basics of Judaism were wrong? I mean, for you, as a Jew (or potential Jew), I'd think what you would view as lovely would be when Moshiach actually comes and everyone has a lightbulb moment.

Mom of 5 boys- 13, 10, 8, 2 : and newbie Aug. 24th, '09 . babywearing advocate . Cook, baker, homemaker, wife to a man with another woman's kidney (live altruistic, unknown donor).
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#76 of 245 Old 06-20-2007, 08:03 AM
 
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I clearly stated in my first post on this subject that I do not believe that Jesus is God or Messiah - that I completely agreed with an Orthodox source on this subject - so what's to quibble with??? You don't like the idea of Christians being brought to the God of Israel in some cosmic plan? Fine, whatever floats your boat.
I never saw an orthodox source the Jesus was a rabbi or a teacher, in a good way.

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#77 of 245 Old 06-20-2007, 12:18 PM
 
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So we can't disagree and discuss? Where's the fun in that, Jewishly speaking?
We could if both parties wanted to, but I don't care to to be honest. I'm gestating a baby in here, and as much as it is the MDC way, I'm tired of debating people and being forced to defend my thoughts. : For once, I would just like to put out a thought, and people just take it or leave it. I wasn't starting a debate. I was asked - by a former Christian - how I made the mental leap from Messianic Judaism to Reform, so I told it. If you want to know what Aryah Kaplan says about Jesus read "The Real Messiah?" I will say this, it is very unlikely that I will ever be a "mainstream or traditional thinker" in any religion. I think that Y'shua made some significant contributions to Judaism - that doesn't mean I think he's THE messiah - or that I the pagan doctrines of Christianity are anything to celebrate. I can appreciate the life of any Jew I want to. And I don't think there is anything wrong with being incorrect. I'm glad my relationship with Hashem is contingent on my believing the "correct" things the way it is in Christianity. I'm Jewish because I pray to Hashem - not Jesus, Mary, Allah, Buddah, Zeus or anybody else. And I go about my life trying to get better at the things Hashem has told me to do - that's enough for my plate right now.
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#78 of 245 Old 06-20-2007, 01:11 PM
 
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I never saw an orthodox source the Jesus was a rabbi or a teacher, in a good way.
I will offer you a source - "Jesus the Pharisee: A New Look at the Jewishness of Jesus" by Rabbi Harvey Falk - I believe he was/is Orthodox - copyright 1985

ETA - DH says this book is hard to come by, that he had to wait a year to get it off half.com - but maybe libraries have it - we always think we have to own every book we read...
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#79 of 245 Old 06-20-2007, 02:06 PM
 
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Which orthodox rabbi calls "J" Y'shua ?

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#80 of 245 Old 06-20-2007, 02:15 PM
 
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I read "The Real Messiah" by Rabbi Kaplan. It was phenomenol. Which part of his book are we debating about?
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#81 of 245 Old 06-20-2007, 02:52 PM
 
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Sara, there is nothing in Kaplan's book to debate - unless you are coming from a Christian perspective, then you would see that there are some misunderstandings of what Christians actually believe. What we have here is a great deal of fear that Messianic Judaism might be creeping into mainstream Judaism through converts like me. I understand there is alot of fear out there due to the misplaced efforts of organizations like "Jews for Jesus". However, that shouldn't prevent Jews from taking a scholarly approach to the Jesus issue. He was an orthodox observant Jew of the school of Hillel. He came on the scene when there was alot of conflict between the school of Hillel and the school of Shammai. The school of Shammai was in power at the time, so if you were a follower of the school of Hillel you were not mainstream. Rabbi Falk explains it very well in his book.

I prefer to use the term "Y'shua" because to me it separates the historical figure - a Jewish teacher, who never claimed to be God or wanted to form a separate religion from the social/religous construct of "Jesus" with the face of Zeus, God of a pagan religion. It is very hard to discuss the historical figure anyway, because it is so emotionally charged for so many people. But a few authors like Rabbi Falk have managed to take a fairly unbiased look.
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#82 of 245 Old 06-20-2007, 03:09 PM
 
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You should be aware you come across as Messianic if you use a name only they use to refer to jesus (who may or may notr have been an actual person in history.)

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#83 of 245 Old 06-20-2007, 03:29 PM
 
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Yeah, BelovedBird, that's part of the difficulty of my life - People make assumptions about you based on the vocabulary you use - coming from a linguistic and literary background, I tend to have a much richer thought process behind the words I chose than those who hear them. Hard to remember that...

This is from Falk's book:

"Jesus of Nazareth - according to our thesis - never wished to see his fellow Jews change one iota of their traditional faith. He himself remained an Orthodox Jew to his last moment. He only wished to see his people return to the teachings of the School of Hillel, which stressed love, humility, and the salvation of all mankind. His attacks on the Pharisees were directed against the School of Shammai, who were in control of the principal institutions of Judaism in his time. Accordingly, there seems no question that the Hasid from Nazareth would have objected strenuously to Christian missionary activity among Jews.

Another important conclusion is that the Jewish people of today do not identify with the "Scribes and Pharisees" who he condemned. To the contrary, the Talmud states explicityly that a Jew who follows the teachings of Bet Shammai "deserves death." Hence, there is no basis for Christian enmity toward Jews of today because of the actions of certain individuals who lived in the first century. We do not identify with them nor with their teachings. A Heavenly Voice settled the matter toward the close of the first century: 'The Halakha is as Bet Hillel.'" pg 158

The teachings of Jesus continue to feel very applicable to my life as a Jew. If he were chosen to serve as THE Messiah in some future life or in some mystical way, then I think it would be lovely. It seems to me that his has played a part in tikkum olam. But YEAH, whoever Hashem choses for that job will be the right one, and I will have no sadness about it - only rejoicing.
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#84 of 245 Old 06-20-2007, 03:33 PM
 
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So what torah source do you have for calling him by the name only used by messianics?

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#85 of 245 Old 06-20-2007, 05:20 PM
 
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He wasn't alive when the Torah was given, so I assume their is no "Torah source" for that name - unless you are including the halakah as well, and honestly I haven't gone looking for it there. The Strong's concordance of the Bible links the English translation "Jesus" back to the Greek word ee-ay-sus (2424) which links back to the Hebrew word Jehoshua (3091) which in the Tanak is translated "Joshua." Always made me wonder why they didn't translate it Joshua in the New Testament. I guess there are 3 other Joshuas or Jesus's in the New Testament as well. I suppose the Messianics like it for a name because it means "Hashem saved" - but it meant the same for Joshua who led the Hebrew people into the promised land as well.

Most dictionaries will link the etymology back to Joshua and Hebrew Y'shua or Yehoshua as well:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Jesus
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#86 of 245 Old 06-20-2007, 06:30 PM
 
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Yes, Torah means Halacha.

Joshua= Yehoshu. Yeshua means salvation, that is why messianics call him that.

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#87 of 245 Old 06-20-2007, 07:23 PM
 
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Yeah, this is pretty much where I'm at one the whole Reform/Orthodox, Torah/Talmud thing:

http://www.dennisprager.com/Reform.html

ETA: To clarify, I mean specifically this point:

"we need standards-based Jewish denominations. This means that for those Jews who are willing to change talmudic law, but not Torah principles, there is no denomination."

There is no perfect denomination for me. We picked what we feel is the best fit at this time, and we are thankful our Reform synagogue is more traditional than most.

Just brought it up that since there are subsets of Jews who separate Torah from Talmud - at least Dennis Prager and I do.

BUT ANYWAY - sorry Lexy, back to your regularly scheduled thread now!!
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#88 of 245 Old 06-20-2007, 07:48 PM
 
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Not worth it.
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#89 of 245 Old 06-20-2007, 08:47 PM
 
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Does anyone have any information about the author of that book, Falk?

What exactly do you feel differently than Rabbi Kaplan on? I have the book so please feel free to use exact page numbers if necessary.
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#90 of 245 Old 06-20-2007, 09:09 PM
 
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What exactly do you feel differently than Rabbi Kaplan on?
Nothing.
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