"I'm right/You're wrong." Says who? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#61 of 177 Old 08-09-2007, 12:30 PM
 
CherryBomb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 8,153
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain optimism View Post
What do I believe? I believe I'll have a cup of tea.

Mmmm, me too! Some delicious organic pregnancy tea, to be exact!
CherryBomb is offline  
#62 of 177 Old 08-09-2007, 12:31 PM
 
tamagotchi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,096
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChasingPeace View Post
So do you think it is not offensive for Christians to say that we believe that Jesus is the Messiah prophesized in the Hebrew Bible?
Well, that's simply what Christians believe. It's not offensive to state Christian belief, so long as you aren't shouting it at us while chasing us around and brandishing a Bible The supercessionist aspect of Christian belief is always problematic in Jewish-Christian dialogue, but at least in this statement you aren't making explicit claims about Judaism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChasingPeace View Post
To answer your question about wheter it's a more accurate statement of Christian belief to say that Jesus was/is simply "the Messiah," I think the answer is "no." As I've stated above, to do so is to lose some of the richness of this part of our belief.
Are you saying that "Jewish Messiah" sounds better to you? Don't you believe that Jesus was/is the universal Messiah? The phrase "Jewish Messiah" doesn't reflect that universality (which seems to me to be a pretty central part of Christian belief).
tamagotchi is offline  
#63 of 177 Old 08-09-2007, 12:32 PM
 
daniedb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,524
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguazul View Post
So since most Christians seem to get along perfectly fine without calling him the "Jewish Messiah", why is it that some insist on using Jewish terminology to describe their own beliefs? To bolster their own sense of legitimacy?
I dunno, maybe we'll have someone chime in that does that. Until this board, I never knew that there was such a tenuous relationship between Jews and Christians today. Apparently, I live in a parallel universe where Christians respect and honor Judaism and Jews live their lives and faith and aren't much bothered by Christianity and we live in peace. Little did I know what a utopia I have created in my head.

Mama to H (6) B (3) : A (1)
daniedb is offline  
#64 of 177 Old 08-09-2007, 12:34 PM
 
BelgianSheepDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: unemployed in Greenland
Posts: 7,824
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CherryBomb View Post
I think everyone gets that most practicing Jews don't like the fact that Christians think Jesus did fulfill the Hebrew prophecies. I don't like the fact that Muslims reduce Jesus to a mere prophet, but it's pointless for me to get irate about it every time a Muslim here claims some kind of kinship with Christianity while rejecting a basic tenet of it. So I get the annoyance many Jews have at Christians claiming kinship with Judaism while rejecting a basic tenet of it. But I don't think we're going to change each others minds, and I find it intellectually dishonest and insulting to everyone to try to make Christians here pretend that we don't believe something that's a major foundation of our religious beliefs.
Yes. This is a more articulate version of what I wanted to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daniedb View Post
I dunno, maybe we'll have someone chime in that does that. Until this board, I never knew that there was such a tenuous relationship between Jews and Christians today. Apparently, I live in a parallel universe where Christians respect and honor Judaism and Jews live their lives and faith and aren't much bothered by Christianity and we live in peace. Little did I know what a utopia I have created in my head.
Uh actually I think what happened is you're living in this place called reality. I live there too, and it's similar! Much nicer than message boards.
BelgianSheepDog is offline  
#65 of 177 Old 08-09-2007, 12:37 PM
 
tamagotchi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,096
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CherryBomb View Post
The universality of Jesus would apply to Jews too, though, which is obviously a very insulting insinuation to them.
I don't find that to be insulting, so long as you don't chase me around trying to make me accept it. It's a basic fact of Christianity, as well as other universal religions, that they are intended to be for everyone.
tamagotchi is offline  
#66 of 177 Old 08-09-2007, 12:40 PM
 
daniedb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,524
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CherryBomb View Post
Yeah, I don't know any Christians who walk around saying Jesus was "the Jewish Messiah." Most just refer to Him as "the Messiah."

I think everyone gets that most practicing Jews don't like the fact that Christians think Jesus did fulfill the Hebrew prophecies. I don't like the fact that Muslims reduce Jesus to a mere prophet, but it's pointless for me to get irate about it every time a Muslim here claims some kind of kinship with Christianity while rejecting a basic tenet of it. So I get the annoyance many Jews have at Christians claiming kinship with Judaism while rejecting a basic tenet of it. But I don't think we're going to change each others minds, and I find it intellectually dishonest and insulting to everyone to try to make Christians here pretend that we don't believe something that's a major foundation of our religious beliefs. Jesus was at least an ethnic Jew, born to a Jewish mother, raised an obedient Jew, who was followed by Jews who believed Him to be the fulfillment of Jewish prophecies. I get that practicing Jews disagree completely. I get that they don't like that. But that doesn't change the fact that, no matter how wrong the Jews believe we are, that's what Christians believe. I'm a gentile, I don't have the benefit of a Jewish upbringing and knowledge of the Torah that would allow me to understand the historical and Christian Jesus in a Jewish manner, and I think it's silly to expect me to. I won't argue with Jews about it, because I know we're coming from two completely different places and understandings, but I'm not going to lie and pretend I don't believe things that I do.

They imply that Jesus was meant to be the Messiah only for the Jews and not for everyone else. Isn't the whole point that Jesus is supposed to be a universal Messiah? Wouldn't it be a more accurate statement of Christian belief to say that Jesus was/is simply "the Messiah"?

The universality of Jesus would apply to Jews too, though, which is obviously a very insulting insinuation to them.
I'm not just going to quote you and "yeah that" you, but this speaks for me as well.

Or, as BSD put it so succinctly, so I'll just yeah that to her too.

Ack, I've just become That <quote> <--- yeah that! Guy and I've never wanted to be That Guy. :

Mama to H (6) B (3) : A (1)
daniedb is offline  
#67 of 177 Old 08-09-2007, 12:41 PM
 
daniedb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,524
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BelgianSheepDog View Post
Uh actually I think what happened is you're living in this place called reality. I live there too, and it's similar! Much nicer than message boards.

Now I'm going to just be This Guy:

<quote BSD> add LOL smiley


Mama to H (6) B (3) : A (1)
daniedb is offline  
#68 of 177 Old 08-09-2007, 12:41 PM
 
Ruthla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 47,873
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChasingPeace View Post
How about this--what if a Christian says "I believe Jesus is the Messiah promised in the Hebrew Bible?" Is that offensive? Because we use books of the Hebrew Bible as our Holy Scripture, too, so we really can't divorce our belief in Jesus as the promised Messiah from it.
That sounds fine to me. "Hebrew Bible" isn't offensive at all-since Jews generally use the term "Torah".

Ruth, single mommy to Leah, 19, Hannah, 18, and Jack, 12
Ruthla is offline  
#69 of 177 Old 08-09-2007, 12:53 PM
 
CherryBomb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 8,153
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamagotchi View Post
I don't find that to be insulting, so long as you don't chase me around trying to make me accept it. It's a basic fact of Christianity, as well as other universal religions, that they are intended to be for everyone.
Well, there are a fair number of Christians who do stuff like that, but I'm not one of them. :
CherryBomb is offline  
#70 of 177 Old 08-09-2007, 01:24 PM
 
Chavelamomela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Westchester, NY
Posts: 780
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
One thing I think needs clarity:

The purpose of this discussion was NOT about Christianity. Nobody here is saying "stop practicing Christianity because I believe it is wrong."

What this discussion is about is specifically about the language that us used here by MESSIANIC "Judaism" which is simply NOT Judaism (and no practicing Jew will ever confuse the two).

Jesus was Jewish, yes. But Judaism does not accept that he was or ever will be their messiah. The tactics of Messianic Judaism are specifically used to target those Jews who are unaffiliated and to try to convert them to believe in Jesus as the Messiah, which NOT Judaism in any shape or form. This is the problem that "we" have with Messianic "Judaism" - it's simply not Judaism - belief in Jesus as Messiah is Christianity, so call it that, not Judaism in any form. To call it anything else would be deceptive.

So again, the problem is not about belief, but about language. Stop calling Belief in Jesus as Messiah as ANYTHING Jewish.
Chavelamomela is offline  
#71 of 177 Old 08-09-2007, 01:38 PM
 
tamagotchi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,096
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chavelamomela View Post
The tactics of Messianic Judaism are specifically used to target those Jews who are unaffiliated and to try to convert them to believe in Jesus as the Messiah, which NOT Judaism in any shape or form.
I don't think that's true of all Messianic Judaism. Some Messianics are interested in converting Jews; but other Messianics just want to believe what they believe, practice what they practice, and be left alone in peace. In my opinion, they're entitled to believe and practice what they want, as long as they don't try to get me to do the same.
tamagotchi is offline  
#72 of 177 Old 08-09-2007, 01:39 PM
 
AlexisT's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Central PA
Posts: 2,265
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CherryBomb View Post
Yeah, I don't know any Christians who walk around saying Jesus was "the Jewish Messiah." Most just refer to Him as "the Messiah."
Most people don't, but some people, either Messianics or people who have an active belief in supercessionism, do. If you don't use the term, no problem from me.

Quote:
I think everyone gets that most practicing Jews don't like the fact that Christians think Jesus did fulfill the Hebrew prophecies. I don't like the fact that Muslims reduce Jesus to a mere prophet, but it's pointless for me to get irate about it every time a Muslim here claims some kind of kinship with Christianity while rejecting a basic tenet of it. So I get the annoyance many Jews have at Christians claiming kinship with Judaism while rejecting a basic tenet of it. But I don't think we're going to change each others minds, and I find it intellectually dishonest and insulting to everyone to try to make Christians here pretend that we don't believe something that's a major foundation of our religious beliefs.
But we're not asking that you pretend that. You believe that Jesus fulfills the Biblical requirements. That's not the problem. The problem is the term "Jewish messiah", which implies a kind of Jewish belief in it. It's misleading language. If you just said "messiah" we would assume it was messiah according to your definition, or "Messiah as promised in the Bible" it's again clear that that depends on how you interpret the Bible. You can even say that Jesus is the universal messiah and is meant for everyone including Jews; that's about your own personal belief. But you can't imply that Jesus-as-Messiah is in line with Jewish belief. That's the dividing line. YOU can believe anything you like, but you can't make incorrect statements about other people's beliefs. "Jewish messiah" doesn't work, even if by that what you really mean is "messiah as defined by Jewish law", because it's completely unclear that it doesn't mean "the messiah believed in by Jews today".

BSD, it's true that the messiah is originally a Jewish concept; however, it's now acquired its own meaning within Christianity, which is related but not identical.

DD 01/2007, DS 09/2011

AlexisT is offline  
#73 of 177 Old 08-09-2007, 01:40 PM
 
ccohenou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 1,797
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I wondered if that's how we were talking past each other.
But it's not only "Messianic Jews" who believe that Jesus is the Messiah promised to the Jews...prettty much all Christians do. And this discussion started from an exchange between a Jewish person and an Orthodox Christian person, not a Messianic Jew, if I remember rightly.
ccohenou is offline  
#74 of 177 Old 08-09-2007, 01:54 PM
 
Benji'sMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 4,106
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexisT View Post
you can't make incorrect statements about other people's beliefs. "Jewish messiah" doesn't work, even if by that what you really mean is "messiah as defined by Jewish law", because it's completely unclear that it doesn't mean "the messiah believed in by Jews today".
But in Xtian belief there's only one messiah, so to a Xtian, messiah means all these things. But I don't see how that's an incorrect statement of your belief, because I totally and completely understand that you don't believe it.

Single mom of 2 boys
Benji'sMom is offline  
#75 of 177 Old 08-09-2007, 02:33 PM
 
Janelovesmax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: with water bugs.
Posts: 2,054
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chavelamomela View Post
This discussion is not about the validity of christianity or not. We're not debating christian theology.

What is being discussed is that when someone says Jesus was a "Jewish Messiah" it is completely insulting to practicing Jews. (And that means Jews who follow rabbinic Torah, not the NT). So it's fine for a Christian or a Messianist to say "I believe that Jesus was the Messiah" and for a Jew to say "Jesus is not our Messiah" - but for someone who is not a practicing Jew to TELL practicing Jews that Jesus is the "Jewish Messiah" is completely insulting.

:
But what if a person says it because this is what they believe in? Should they just keep their mouth shut and not express themselves out of fear of insulting? Can't there just be an agreement: this is what you believe and this is what I believe and that's that?
Janelovesmax is offline  
#76 of 177 Old 08-09-2007, 02:38 PM
 
crazy_eights's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Nisht ahir un nish aher
Posts: 6,837
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguazul View Post
So since most Christians seem to get along perfectly fine without calling him the "Jewish Messiah", why is it that some insist on using Jewish terminology to describe their own beliefs? To bolster their own sense of legitimacy?
Well, most people who use this terminology are generally looking for legitimacy and/or looking to convert other Jews to this "Jewish" idea.
crazy_eights is offline  
#77 of 177 Old 08-09-2007, 02:39 PM
 
Janelovesmax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: with water bugs.
Posts: 2,054
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexisT View Post
Just because some Jews believed it, doesn't make it a Jewish belief. If I and all my friends decide to go believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, it's still not Jewish. The idea that Jesus was the Jewish messiah was and has been rejected. We don't have a Pope to decide what is and isn't Jewish theology, but there has never been a major Jewish thinker or mainstream Jewish opinion that accepts Jesus. Therefore, it's not a Jewish belief; it's just a belief that some (ethnic) Jews have. Jewish theology is not decided by individuals.

Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah can do so, but they can't expect other Jews to accept that as a legitimate Jewish belief--any more than I can make the Flying Spaghetti Monster Jewish. You can't square the circle. Belief in Jesus as the Messiah was the original dividing line between Jews and Christians.
Actually I don't expect other Jews to accept it as Jewish belief, that's obvious to me. It is not a Jewish belief.
However I also don't see an argument in where: well, Jesus is not a Messiah, since he was rejected by Jews...since he was not rejected by all Jews, by far.
Janelovesmax is offline  
#78 of 177 Old 08-09-2007, 02:43 PM
 
Janelovesmax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: with water bugs.
Posts: 2,054
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chavelamomela View Post
But we're not debating Christian theology. We just are extremely insulted and taken-aback when someone injects "Jewish" into anything Christian (which means, anything that has to do with Jesus). So to say that Jesus is the "Jewish Messiah" is just wrong. He's the Christian Messiah, which is fine, and no one is arguing with. Just don't call that Judaism. Anything that involves Jesus is simply not Judaism.
I can see how it can sound wrong to you because you don't believe in Jesus as a Messiah in general and quite honestly I think the hidden message of this thread is: He is not a Messiah so stop associating him with our religion!!! And the statements that are made here: He is a Christian Messiah, not ours, seem so fake to me.
And even though I'm not a practicing Jew, I am still a Jew and I think I have a right to say when I BELIEVE (the emphasis on the word "believe") that Jesus is a Jewish Messiah.
Janelovesmax is offline  
#79 of 177 Old 08-09-2007, 02:43 PM
 
crazy_eights's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Nisht ahir un nish aher
Posts: 6,837
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamagotchi View Post
I don't think that's true of all Messianic Judaism. Some Messianics are interested in converting Jews; but other Messianics just want to believe what they believe, practice what they practice, and be left alone in peace. In my opinion, they're entitled to believe and practice what they want, as long as they don't try to get me to do the same.
However, they should acknowledge that what they practice is Christianity and not some other legitimate form of Judaism.

And that, folks, is the entire point. Just for all the Christians on the thread who have gotten their panties in a wad about a discussion that really has nothing to do with them.
crazy_eights is offline  
#80 of 177 Old 08-09-2007, 02:45 PM
 
ChasingPeace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Engaging in Subversive Motherhood
Posts: 2,541
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamagotchi View Post
Are you saying that "Jewish Messiah" sounds better to you? Don't you believe that Jesus was/is the universal Messiah? The phrase "Jewish Messiah" doesn't reflect that universality (which seems to me to be a pretty central part of Christian belief).
No, I don't use the term "Jewish Messiah," and I do believe that Jesus was the universal Messiah. But to use the term "Messiah" out of the context of the Hebrew Bible is to lose most of its meaning. That does not mean there is an expectation or even desire for Jews to accept Jesus as the Messiah promised.
ChasingPeace is offline  
#81 of 177 Old 08-09-2007, 02:47 PM
 
Janelovesmax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: with water bugs.
Posts: 2,054
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguazul View Post
So since most Christians seem to get along perfectly fine without calling him the "Jewish Messiah", why is it that some insist on using Jewish terminology to describe their own beliefs? To bolster their own sense of legitimacy?
Well, for me, it simply means that Jesus was a Jew and He is the one who was prophesized by prophets. (I don't care about getting into debate, about the prophecies, etc, etc...)
And quite honestly I use the term "Jewish" rarely because I believe that he came for everyone. But if the term is used, I don't deny it.
Janelovesmax is offline  
#82 of 177 Old 08-09-2007, 02:49 PM
 
Janelovesmax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: with water bugs.
Posts: 2,054
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BelgianSheepDog View Post
"Messiah" doesn't exist outside the context of Judaism, first century or otherwise. It's from an Aramaic word and refers to a Jewish theological concept. Even if you don't say "Jewish Messiah" you're referencing a Jewish concept when you say the word "Messiah."

I guess if that bothers people, it bothers them, but the horse is kind of out of the barn now.

ETA: Once again I think this whole argument is ridiculous. Christians aren't going to change their entire 2000 year old doctrine because someone on MDC gets pissy about the wording. Arguing over beliefs like this baffles me.

Finally, the words of wisdom.
Janelovesmax is offline  
#83 of 177 Old 08-09-2007, 02:53 PM
 
Janelovesmax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: with water bugs.
Posts: 2,054
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
[QUOTE=mom2seven;8856097]However, they should acknowledge that what they practice is Christianity and not some other legitimate form of Judaism.

QUOTE]

I agree with that statement.
Janelovesmax is offline  
#84 of 177 Old 08-09-2007, 02:55 PM
 
crazy_eights's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Nisht ahir un nish aher
Posts: 6,837
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janelovesmax View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom2seven View Post
However, they should acknowledge that what they practice is Christianity and not some other legitimate form of Judaism.



I agree with that statement.
Whew! Concensus at last.
crazy_eights is offline  
#85 of 177 Old 08-09-2007, 03:51 PM
 
mamabadger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,845
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I've asked a couple of times for a ruling on how to describe, without offending, the situation regarding Jesus and his disciples. His followers were Jews, and they believed him to be the Messiah. If using the words "Jewish" and "Jesus" in the same context is a problem, can I say that Jesus was Jewish, or not? Can I say his disciples were Jews, or would it be more acceptable to say Hebrews or Israelites or some other term? If Christians are told they have to pretend Jesus and his original followers were some kind of mysteriously misplaced gentiles who happened to be living in Judea at the time, that's just unreasonable (and inaccurate) and nobody's going to do it. The fact that Jesus and his original followers were Jewish (or insert alternate word) is significant to Christian doctrine, so it's not just going to be censored out. Suggest a non-offensive alternate, which is still consistent with Christian beliefs, or accept the present terminology.
mamabadger is offline  
#86 of 177 Old 08-09-2007, 03:58 PM
 
captain optimism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Good Ship Lollipop
Posts: 7,462
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamabadger View Post
I've asked a couple of times for a ruling on how to describe, without offending, the situation regarding Jesus and his disciples. His followers were Jews, and they believed him to be the Messiah. If using the words "Jewish" and "Jesus" in the same context is a problem, can I say that Jesus was Jewish, or not? Can I say his disciples were Jews, or would it be more acceptable to say Hebrews or Israelites or some other term? If Christians are told they have to pretend Jesus and his original followers were some kind of mysteriously misplaced gentiles who happened to be living in Judea at the time, that's just unreasonable (and inaccurate) and nobody's going to do it. The fact that Jesus and his original followers were Jewish (or insert alternate word) is significant to Christian doctrine, so it's not just going to be censored out. Suggest a non-offensive alternate, which is still consistent with Christian beliefs, or accept the present terminology.
I thought I did respond to this, but nobody really engaged with what I said so maybe I was ineffective.

I wasn't aware of the other thread, so I assumed that one reason people would keep referring to Jesus as the Jewish messiah was that they were trying to acknowledge the historical roots of Christianity in Judaism.

This is, to me, a very important point, as in the past, various groups of Christians had tried to distance themselves from Jews and Judaism by denying Jesus' Jewishness and the Jewish roots of Christianity.

It seems like the problem here (which I didn't understand right away) was coming up with a non-judgmental way to describe the syncretistic beliefs of "messianic Jews" and other ethnically Jewish people who have tried to combine Jewish practice and/or identity with Christian doctrine.

Or even, to establish that Jews have a right to be authorities on Judaism, even though we're a minority in Christian societies and Christianity has a whole set of beliefs about us.

Quite a lot to unpack!

Divorced mom of one awesome boy born 2-3-2003.
captain optimism is online now  
#87 of 177 Old 08-09-2007, 04:16 PM
 
eilonwy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Lost
Posts: 15,410
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Such an odd thread.

Do most of you actually believe that "the majority of Christians don't refer to/think of Jesus as 'The Jewish Messiah?'" : Whew! I must hear that three times a week! Not just from the fundie in-laws, either; the overwhelming majority of the Christians I know are absolutely convinced that they know what's right for Jews, and that Jewish people are just very wrong about their own scripture. It doesn't take too much for me to shut most of them up-- "Have you read that in Hebrew? No? Aramaic? No?" "What, you're telling me you've read the entire Tanach in Hebrew?" "Actually I have. It was kind of a requirement in school, and I was always one to go above and beyond when it came to academics." "Um... oh. Can I pray for you?" "Knock yourself out."

My FIL is worse than most; he's been to seminary, and he's absolutely convinced that if Jews read the bible they'd know that Jesus was the Messiah. He prays for our souls every week and preaches to the children in what he considers "a way that is respectful of your beliefs." . How is it respectful? Oh, he's talking about "the Old Testament," which is "Jewish." He's never going to be able to accept that his beliefs are Christian by definition. Thankfully my husband does understand this; if he didn't, we never would have gotten married. That's seriously irreconcilable.

As to "Jewish beliefs..." I was born and raised Jewish, but I'm practicing Chaos Magick. I'm never going to begin to tell anyone that Eris, spiral pentagrams, or sigils are part of Jewish belief. It'd be just as ridiculous as justifying the fact that I turn the lights on on Saturdays by twisting the words of the Torah. Can I justify it? Obviously I can, or I wouldn't do it. Can I justify it within the context of Judaism? Sometimes, but I know better than to try to claim that what I'm doing is, in any sense, "Jewish."

I drive on Saturday. I think I might hurt myself if you told me I could never have shrimp again, and my favorite pizza topping is pepperoni (double nono!). I will never, ever EVER claim that this is "something Jewish" or that it is "acceptable to Jews;" that'd be a lie, plain and simple. I can't say that I'm practicing Judaism in any form, it's just not true. Could I say that there are Jewish elements to my beliefs and practices? Absolutely. Could I say that my practices and beliefs are influenced by Jewish thought? Sure, that's definately the case... but being influenced by a particular paradigm doesn't make you part of it. You reverence for nature might be influenced by a particular First Nations belief system, but that doesn't make you a practicing member of that religion, particularly if you refuse to adhere to some of the fundamental rules (or if you cannot let go of the fundamentals of another belief system).

Rynna, Mama to Bean (8), Boobah (6), Bella (4) and Bear (2)
eilonwy is offline  
#88 of 177 Old 08-09-2007, 04:25 PM
 
Ruthla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 47,873
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BelgianSheepDog View Post
"Messiah" doesn't exist outside the context of Judaism, first century or otherwise. It's from an Aramaic word and refers to a Jewish theological concept. Even if you don't say "Jewish Messiah" you're referencing a Jewish concept when you say the word "Messiah."

I guess if that bothers people, it bothers them, but the horse is kind of out of the barn now.

ETA: Once again I think this whole argument is ridiculous. Christians aren't going to change their entire 2000 year old doctrine because someone on MDC gets pissy about the wording. Arguing over beliefs like this baffles me.
That's not true. The concept of Messiah exists within Christianity as well.

There is no "Jewish Messiah" because he hasn't come yet.

The man that Christians believe is the Messiah is the Christian Messiah, not the Jewish one. I don't want to argue theology- I understand that many Christians view Christianity as a continuation of Judaism and believe that Jesus fulfilled Biblical prophecies. I have complete respect for Christians who beleive this, although I do not share this belief.

All we're asking is that you refrain from using the adjective "Jewish" to describe this individual/religious concept. Nobody is debating the validity of your beliefs.

Ruth, single mommy to Leah, 19, Hannah, 18, and Jack, 12
Ruthla is offline  
#89 of 177 Old 08-09-2007, 04:32 PM
 
Ruthla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 47,873
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamabadger View Post
I've asked a couple of times for a ruling on how to describe, without offending, the situation regarding Jesus and his disciples. His followers were Jews, and they believed him to be the Messiah. If using the words "Jewish" and "Jesus" in the same context is a problem, can I say that Jesus was Jewish, or not? Can I say his disciples were Jews, or would it be more acceptable to say Hebrews or Israelites or some other term? If Christians are told they have to pretend Jesus and his original followers were some kind of mysteriously misplaced gentiles who happened to be living in Judea at the time, that's just unreasonable (and inaccurate) and nobody's going to do it. The fact that Jesus and his original followers were Jewish (or insert alternate word) is significant to Christian doctrine, so it's not just going to be censored out. Suggest a non-offensive alternate, which is still consistent with Christian beliefs, or accept the present terminology.
Of course it's acceptable to state historical fact- Jesus and his disciples were born and raised as Torah- Observant Jews, although Christian practice and doctrine strayed from Jewish practice and doctrine at some point.

It might be more accurate to refer to the whole group of ancient people as "Hebrews" that then split up into "Christians" and "Jews" following Jesus' death and the destruction of the 2nd Temple in Jerusalem (which occured in 70 CE, which I'm guessing is around the time Christianity started being a distinct religion with a growing following).

Ruth, single mommy to Leah, 19, Hannah, 18, and Jack, 12
Ruthla is offline  
#90 of 177 Old 08-09-2007, 04:40 PM
 
CherryBomb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 8,153
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom2seven View Post
However, they should acknowledge that what they practice is Christianity and not some other legitimate form of Judaism.

And that, folks, is the entire point. Just for all the Christians on the thread who have gotten their panties in a wad about a discussion that really has nothing to do with them.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that merpk said in that thread that this thread is NOT solely a discussion on Messianicism...Messianism...whatever.

Quote:
But you can't imply that Jesus-as-Messiah is in line with Jewish belief. That's the dividing line. YOU can believe anything you like, but you can't make incorrect statements about other people's beliefs. "Jewish messiah" doesn't work, even if by that what you really mean is "messiah as defined by Jewish law", because it's completely unclear that it doesn't mean "the messiah believed in by Jews today".
Jesus as Messiah isn't in line with the beliefs of practicing Jews, I understand that. What I'm saying is, right or wrong in your mind, Christians do believe that Jesus fulfilled the Jewish prophecies. I think most Christians understand that Jews believe absolutely that we're 100% dead wrong. I think most of us understand that the Jews are still waiting for what they believe to be the true Messiah. But Christians do believe that Jesus was that Messiah prophesied, and if that's a fundamentally inflammatory and insulting concept, I don't see how we're going to rectify it on a message board, ykwim?

Quote:
Do most of you actually believe that "the majority of Christians don't refer to/think of Jesus as 'The Jewish Messiah?'"
Of course Christians believe Jesus is the "Jewish Messiah" in that we believe He's the one foretold of. But I don't know of any Christians that go around actually referring to Him as "the Jewish Messiah." It's always just "the Messiah."

Quote:
I'm never going to begin to tell anyone that Eris, spiral pentagrams, or sigils are part of Jewish belief. It'd be just as ridiculous as justifying the fact that I turn the lights on on Saturdays by twisting the words of the Torah. Can I justify it? Obviously I can, or I wouldn't do it. Can I justify it within the context of Judaism? Sometimes, but I know better than to try to claim that what I'm doing is, in any sense, "Jewish."
I don't really see what that has to do with it, unless you're referring specifically to "Messianic Jews." I mean...by Jews own definition, Jesus was Jewish. I think that "This person is Jewish because they had a Jewish mother" and "pentagrams are Jewish" would be completely different. I agree though completely that modern Christian belief and practice is NOT Jewish. But I think it's a bit silly to say Christianity has no Jewish roots, if that's what some people are saying.
CherryBomb is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off