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#121 of 177 Old 08-10-2007, 04:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by eilonwy View Post
Christians seem to think that Jesus got to do one and then he gets to come back and do the other.
I think you've said something like this before. I have no idea what you mean by "coming back to do the other." The only time Christ is supposed to come back is at the end of the world, and not to finish some incomplete work, but simply in order to bring the world to an end. What are you referring to?
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#122 of 177 Old 08-10-2007, 04:56 PM
 
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I am thinking that there is just no way to reconcile this, because the belief systems of these two religions are SO DIFFERENT. Here is how I see it... Judaism believes that Judaism is the right belief system for Jews and that it is just fine for others to believe as they may and practice as they believe they should. They do not hold a belief that anyone needs to believe any particular thing or follow the rules of Judaism in order to have salvation in an afterlife.

On the other hand Christianity is entirely based on the belief that Christ came as the Messiah for the whole worls and that EVERYONE must accept these teachings and accept that Jesus is THE MESSIAH or they will not have salvation in the afterlife. Their entire belief system is based on the idea that Jesus came and made everything before it obsolete. Therefore, they can not accept that Jesus is not the Messiah for the Jews, because to accept that he is not, is to believe that Christianity is wrong.

I hope this came out as respectful of different beliefs as I meant it to. I hope I did not misrepresent anyones belief system.
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#123 of 177 Old 08-10-2007, 05:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by merpk View Post
Mazal tov that you live in such a beautiful place. When I lived for most of my life on the Upper West Side, one of the most liberal and open neighborhoods in the USA with one of the highest concentrations of liberal and open Jews in the USA, I experienced a whole lot of open and nasty anti-Semitism. Sweet looking blond children in full playgrounds screaming at my yarmulke'd little boy that "we don't want Jews in this playground" and "I hate Jews." Among other things.

I'm glad that your head lives in such a lovely place. Reality bites.
Wow. I would be infuriated. I don't know what to say beyond....I'm sorry. I do realize that even though I don't experience it, it exists, and all I can do is my best to be sensitive to those around me and speak out when I see injustice.

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#124 of 177 Old 08-10-2007, 05:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by eilonwy View Post
That may be true, but that doesn't change the fact that this particular idea is not a Jewish one. I believe all kinds of things, but the fact that I share those beliefs with a fair number of people who are also ethnically Jewish doesn't make those ideas Jewish ones.

As an aside-- I think that the Messiah does have a spiritual purpose as well as a worldly one; my problem is with the idea of a separation. Chrisitains seem to think that Jesus got to do one and then he gets to come back and do the other. The Jewish line of thinking is that the Messiah must do EVERYTHING the first time around. I don't see any way to say it more plainly-- do it all, or you're not the dude. Use all your letters, or you don't win Scrabble. Finish the course or you don't get the grade... how many more analogies must I use? It's not that difficult a concept, is it? The dude didn't do the job. Sorry, he didn't cut the mustard. He's not alone, LOTS of people have failed to be Moshiach. Nobody has ever succeeded, in fact.
See, but to say that Jesus failed to be Messiah is flat out telling Christians that *we're* wrong. So, where is the carefully worded language that won't offend the other side in their belief of Messiah? What does one do in this circumstance? Because I can certainly say back, "The dude did the job. Sorry, he cut the mustard. He alone was the only successful one." : Do we just go 'round and 'round?

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#125 of 177 Old 08-10-2007, 05:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by daniedb View Post
See, but to say that Jesus failed to be Messiah is flat out telling Christians that *we're* wrong. So, where is the carefully worded language that won't offend the other side in their belief of Messiah? What does one do in this circumstance? Because I can certainly say back, "The dude did the job. Sorry, he cut the mustard. He alone was the only successful one." : Do we just go 'round and 'round?
Daniedb,

When I read her post I see her pointing out that this is the Jewish perspective. You have to accept that Judaism does not see Jesus as the Messiah. Saying that is not being disrespectful of your views.
However, I do think we will just go round and round and get nowhere because I do not think this can be resolved and I do believe that this issue is central to years of European anti semitism.
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#126 of 177 Old 08-10-2007, 06:03 PM
 
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I'm not Jewish.
I'm reconciling with my Catholic childhood (through my stepmother) and will begin RCIA in September).

And *I* see and AGREE with what merpk and others are saying. Jesus did not fulfill requirements to be messiah for Jews, but DOES fulfill requirements to be the Messiah for Christians.

Why is this such a hard concept to grasp for some?
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#127 of 177 Old 08-10-2007, 06:11 PM
 
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OK, this is really weird, I could have sworn I replied to all these posts yesterday, I must have logged out before I hit the button or it finished or something. I'm trying to find all the ones I quoted yesterday (and some new ones)
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I dunno, maybe we'll have someone chime in that does that. Until this board, I never knew that there was such a tenuous relationship between Jews and Christians today. Apparently, I live in a parallel universe where Christians respect and honor Judaism and Jews live their lives and faith and aren't much bothered by Christianity and we live in peace. Little did I know what a utopia I have created in my head.
This was the first post that made me want to respond. I envy your world and your ability to create such a nice little world in your head. In my lifetime it has been quite apparent there is such a divide. I only dream I had grown up in a time and place where being Jewish wasn't the main source of all ridicule and threats of violence towards me. I'm just sayin'. I might be on another planet when it comes to other issues, so I'm not bashing you, just saying it hasn't been on your radar- but that doesn't mean it isn't real for many of us.


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Actually I don't expect other Jews to accept it as Jewish belief, that's obvious to me. It is not a Jewish belief.
However I also don't see an argument in where: well, Jesus is not a Messiah, since he was rejected by Jews...since he was not rejected by all Jews, by far.
But he is rejected by all Jews, as a Jewish messiah He might have had a few believers during his lifetime, but once he died and failed to fill all the requirements he just went down on the list of, "close, but no cigar". As far as the idea that there are some Jews who believe in him and become Christian, that doesn't mean anything. Elionwy says it better in another post.

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Well, for me, it simply means that Jesus was a Jew and He is the one who was prophesized by prophets. (I don't care about getting into debate, about the prophecies, etc, etc...)
And quite honestly I use the term "Jewish" rarely because I believe that he came for everyone. But if the term is used, I don't deny it.
Him being a Jew, doesn't make him the "Jewish Messiah". They are two seperate issues.
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Such an odd thread.

Do most of you actually believe that "the majority of Christians don't refer to/think of Jesus as 'The Jewish Messiah?'" : Whew! I must hear that three times a week! Not just from the fundie in-laws, either; the overwhelming majority of the Christians I know are absolutely convinced that they know what's right for Jews, and that Jewish people are just very wrong about their own scripture. It doesn't take too much for me to shut most of them up-- "Have you read that in Hebrew? No? Aramaic? No?" "What, you're telling me you've read the entire Tanach in Hebrew?" "Actually I have. It was kind of a requirement in school, and I was always one to go above and beyond when it came to academics." "Um... oh. Can I pray for you?" "Knock yourself out."

My FIL is worse than most; he's been to seminary, and he's absolutely convinced that if Jews read the bible they'd know that Jesus was the Messiah. He prays for our souls every week and preaches to the children in what he considers "a way that is respectful of your beliefs." . How is it respectful? Oh, he's talking about "the Old Testament," which is "Jewish." He's never going to be able to accept that his beliefs are Christian by definition. Thankfully my husband does understand this; if he didn't, we never would have gotten married. That's seriously irreconcilable.

As to "Jewish beliefs..." I was born and raised Jewish, but I'm practicing Chaos Magick. I'm never going to begin to tell anyone that Eris, spiral pentagrams, or sigils are part of Jewish belief. It'd be just as ridiculous as justifying the fact that I turn the lights on on Saturdays by twisting the words of the Torah. Can I justify it? Obviously I can, or I wouldn't do it. Can I justify it within the context of Judaism? Sometimes, but I know better than to try to claim that what I'm doing is, in any sense, "Jewish."

I drive on Saturday. I think I might hurt myself if you told me I could never have shrimp again, and my favorite pizza topping is pepperoni (double nono!). I will never, ever EVER claim that this is "something Jewish" or that it is "acceptable to Jews;" that'd be a lie, plain and simple. I can't say that I'm practicing Judaism in any form, it's just not true. Could I say that there are Jewish elements to my beliefs and practices? Absolutely. Could I say that my practices and beliefs are influenced by Jewish thought? Sure, that's definately the case... but being influenced by a particular paradigm doesn't make you part of it. You reverence for nature might be influenced by a particular First Nations belief system, but that doesn't make you a practicing member of that religion, particularly if you refuse to adhere to some of the fundamental rules (or if you cannot let go of the fundamentals of another belief system).
Here it the one, you said it better than I can. (by the way, I noticed you are missing some fish, I have some for you)


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Originally Posted by mtiger View Post
But it seems equally ridiculous for one who isn't actually living and practicing the religion to be offended. Or are you simply debating for the sake of it? :
No, it's not. I'm Jewish. Not practicing in all aspects of my life, but I am proud of being Jewish, defensive of Jewish beliefs/facts. I don't think it is ridiculous. If I moved to Japan next week I could still get annoyed and speak on behalf of what it is to be an American or live in America.

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Lets say a group of people decided that a particular person was the second coming of Jesus and began to make this belief a part of their Christian belief, even though most Christians were not in agreement with this and found it to be irrelevant to their own Christian belief. The belief that these people hold would certainly be valid but I don't think it would be fair to call this man The Christian Messiah or to present him as such.

I have heard Christians express the feeling that some of what LDS believe is not "Christian" because many things are far removed from main line Christian thought. I don't think Baptists should be expected to consider an LDS prophet to be a "Christian prophet", or that their books should be considered to be part of the Christian bible.
Exactly, this is exactly what I had been thinking!

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Originally Posted by mamabadger View Post
I think you've said something like this before. I have no idea what you mean by "coming back to do the other." The only time Christ is supposed to come back is at the end of the world, and not to finish some incomplete work, but simply in order to bring the world to an end. What are you referring to?
Really? Maybe I have been miseducated, but in my whole life when issues of Jesus fullfiling prophesies has come up Christians have often told me that whatever he didn't finish the first time will happen with the second coming, oh, like rebuilding the temple in Jerusalem, world peace, people following the law of god, people all following one god, gather the jewish people and return them to Israel, ...

If I am wrong about that, that is what I want to know. The Christians I have known have reassured me (usually when attempting conversion) that that was the point of the second coming.

(don't know how he is going to suddenly have a bio-dad that will make him a descendant of the right tribe/family, but I don't know, maybe that is a part of his plan?)
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#128 of 177 Old 08-10-2007, 06:32 PM
 
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Really? Maybe I have been miseducated, but in my whole life when issues of Jesus fullfiling prophesies has come up Christians have often told me that whatever he didn't finish the first time will happen with the second coming, oh, like rebuilding the temple in Jerusalem, world peace, people following the law of god, people all following one god, gather the jewish people and return them to Israel, ...

If I am wrong about that, that is what I want to know. The Christians I have known have reassured me (usually when attempting conversion) that that was the point of the second coming.
: That's pretty much the size of it. Or... did the thousand years of peace happen, and somehow every historian of the era missed it? I know, the temple was rebuilt in secret, and only those deemed "Jewish enough" returned to Israel!

I'm sorry, I still don't get it. There are requirements to be Moshiach. The stuff didn't happen-- Jesus didn't do these things. There is NOTHING in the Tanach to indicate that anyone would get a second chance, you're supposed to do it all and get it right the first time around... Jesus didn't, so he can't be the Moshiach according to Jewish law. Why is this so difficult to see? The whole "second coming" deal is entirely and uniquely Christian. The idea that the messiah gets to come back and finish what he started? Christian. Therefore if Jesus was a messiah, he was a Christian one, because he only fits the bill as far as Christian ideology is concerned.

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#129 of 177 Old 08-10-2007, 06:44 PM
 
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Eilonwy,

I believe the issue is that Christianity is entirely based on the belief that Jesus is the Messiah promised to the Jews and is the Messiah for the entire world. Many Christian groups believe that Christianity is the real Judaism ( I believe one of the Orthodox Christian posters discussed this?). To believe that Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah is to doubt the validity of the entire belief system.
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#130 of 177 Old 08-10-2007, 07:03 PM
 
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Eilonwy,

I believe the issue is that Christianity is entirely based on the belief that Jesus is the Messiah promised to the Jews and is the Messiah for the entire world. Many Christian groups believe that Christianity is the real Judaism ( I believe one of the Orthodox Christian posters discussed this?). To believe that Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah is to doubt the validity of the entire belief system.
Well... personally, if I *didn't* "doubt" (read-- "believe to be entirely false") the entire belief system, I'd be a Christian. It's not terribly PC, but I happen to believe that Christianity is the ONLY religion out there which can absolutely and unequivically be proven wrong. I understand Christians who say, "This is my belief, it is what's right for me but I know that it may not be right to or for you." I understand Christians who view it all as allegorical... but the vast majority of the Christians I've encountered don't fall into either of those categories. Inestead, they believe what you posted-- that Jesus is the Messiah promised to the Jews and came for the whole world. And... as un-pc as it is to say it... that's wrong. It's just. not. true. The rules are there, he didn't measure up, end of discussion.

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#131 of 177 Old 08-10-2007, 08:05 PM
 
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it wobbles my mind that it is "ok" to declare an entire faith system wrong, but fwiw if i ever used the words "Jewish Messiah" before i won't now.
(and now i'll be off to happily explore my own Jewish roots- looking forward to attending a Messianic congragation sometime in the near future)

OH and thanks to the poster that called Yeshua a "radical Jew" i like that and added it to my siggy line.

oh and last but not least, as a child of a culturally Jewish / religiosly agnostic man and a athiest mom- with siblings who have married practicing Jews, and practicing Christians - I have never personally seen any of this divide between the two faiths. maybe it is where i live (los angeles area)

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#132 of 177 Old 08-10-2007, 08:32 PM
 
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<snip>
This was the first post that made me want to respond. I envy your world and your ability to create such a nice little world in your head. In my lifetime it has been quite apparent there is such a divide. I only dream I had grown up in a time and place where being Jewish wasn't the main source of all ridicule and threats of violence towards me. I'm just sayin'. I might be on another planet when it comes to other issues, so I'm not bashing you, just saying it hasn't been on your radar- but that doesn't mean it isn't real for many of us.
I truly hope that I didn't imply in any way that there isn't racism, prejudice and hate in this world, directed at people of Jewish faith. I know it happens. My only motivation in that post was to say that MDC opens my eyes to tensions that I may not know exist, from the perspective of a white woman from South Texas. I am well versed in the racism that is perpetrated against Mexican nationals here without documentation, but I'm certainly not savvy in the Jewish/Christian debate.

The (admittedly few) Jewish families and people I know, as far as I've been able to tell, have good relationships and we live in harmony and respect one another's beliefs. I dated a guy for a while who is Jewish, and while we both felt strongly enough about our own faiths to realize that an interfaith marriage wouldn't be ideal for us, we and our families were respectful and honored the other family's perspectives.

That's all I was saying.

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#133 of 177 Old 08-10-2007, 08:41 PM
 
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Maybe I have been miseducated, but in my whole life when issues of Jesus fullfiling prophesies has come up Christians have often told me that whatever he didn't finish the first time will happen with the second coming, oh, like rebuilding the temple in Jerusalem, world peace, people following the law of god, people all following one god, gather the jewish people and return them to Israel, ...

If I am wrong about that, that is what I want to know. The Christians I have known have reassured me (usually when attempting conversion) that that was the point of the second coming.
Okay, I know what you're talking about now. A small number of Protestant denominations have developed a theory that, as you put it, Jesus is coming back and doing more stuff. Apparently you've run into some in your community. One variation on the idea is that he first brings all the Christians to Heaven, then returns to earth and deals with the bad people. I'm probably putting myself in a position of offending yet another group of believers, but if so I can't help it: that is a very new theory without historical background and, may I add, its basis in Scripture or anything else is less than compelling. At the very least, this description of the second coming wasn't found in any form of Christianity before the last century.
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#134 of 177 Old 08-10-2007, 10:26 PM
 
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Okay, I know what you're talking about now. A small number of Protestant denominations have developed a theory that, as you put it, Jesus is coming back and doing more stuff. Apparently you've run into some in your community. One variation on the idea is that he first brings all the Christians to Heaven, then returns to earth and deals with the bad people. I'm probably putting myself in a position of offending yet another group of believers, but if so I can't help it: that is a very new theory without historical background and, may I add, its basis in Scripture or anything else is less than compelling. At the very least, this description of the second coming wasn't found in any form of Christianity before the last century.
If that's not what's supposed to happen with the second coming, when did/will Jesus accomplish all the things that the messiah is supposed to accomplish?

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#135 of 177 Old 08-11-2007, 08:22 AM
 
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On the other hand Christianity is entirely based on the belief that Christ came as the Messiah for the whole worls and that EVERYONE must accept these teachings and accept that Jesus is THE MESSIAH or they will not have salvation in the afterlife. Their entire belief system is based on the idea that Jesus came and made everything before it obsolete. Therefore, they can not accept that Jesus is not the Messiah for the Jews, because to accept that he is not, is to believe that Christianity is wrong.
Most Christians would not agree with this statement. While this might be the belief in certain denominations, it is by no means a universal Christian belief.
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#136 of 177 Old 08-11-2007, 08:36 AM
 
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If that's not what's supposed to happen with the second coming, when did/will Jesus accomplish all the things that the messiah is supposed to accomplish?
I feel like I keep repeating myself, or else this thread is going round and round in circles (and I still keep repeating myself). The Christian belief (for most of history) has been that the prophecies about the Messiah in the Hebrew Bible were not meant to be taken literally. Of course, if you're a Bible literalist, then this might be problematic, so that might explain why you've heard these things will be accomplished in a literal way in the so-called Second Coming by fundamentalist Protestants. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. For most Christians, this is not a focus of their faith.
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#137 of 177 Old 08-11-2007, 01:50 PM
 
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Most Christians would not agree with this statement. While this might be the belief in certain denominations, it is by no means a universal Christian belief.
Chasing Peace,

I was under the impression that all mainstream Christian denominations (or at least the vast majority) believe that salvation is only through Christ. Are you saying that most Christians do not believe this?
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#138 of 177 Old 08-11-2007, 02:03 PM
 
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What you are talking about is not savlation through Christ. Salvation through Christ is not dependant on the first, second, or 50th coming.
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#139 of 177 Old 08-11-2007, 03:32 PM
 
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What you are talking about is not savlation through Christ. Salvation through Christ is not dependant on the first, second, or 50th coming.
OK now I am totally confused. I am talking about the recognition of Christ as the Savior or Messiah. I thought this was central to Christianity. And I thought that the belief was that you had to accept this for salvation.
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#140 of 177 Old 08-11-2007, 03:40 PM
 
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It's not one of those things that's up for questioning. The requirements are pretty clear, laid out in black and white. Jesus didn't fulfil them any more than I do. Can you win a game of Scrabble by creating rules that say you don't need to use up all the letters? You might win a game, but it won't be Scrabble unless you adhere to Scrabble rules. Jesus can be your messiah, but to call him the Jewish Messiah is erroneous.



I didn't say you weren't an actual Jew, I said you weren't a practicing Jew. And again, that's a simple fact; regardless of what you call it, it doesn't change the fact that it is not, in fact, Judaism anymore than my own practices are. Be offended all you like, but in this particular instance, you're incorrect.



I'm not ridiculing, I'm just saying that your terminology is incorrect and misleading.



I'm assuming that by "what" you mean "that." I can back it up very simply for now, and go into a great deal of detail if you like despite the fact that I am neither practicing Jew nor religious scholar at the moment. Are you sitting down?

The requirements for Moshiach are laid out very clearly in the Tanach. In order to be Moshiach, an individual would have to fulfil each and every requirement during his lifetime. Jesus didn't, therefore he wasn't Moshiach. Simple, isn't it? :

Actually, again, I won't go into whether or not Jesus fulfilled his duties. You think he didn't, I think He did and let's leave it at that.
You did say correctly if I'm wrong that I shouldn't be arguing with "actual" Jews, and actually I tired of the notion that the ones who are practicing Jews are somehow more of Jews then I am. So I think in this instance, you are incorrect.

Whether or not my terminology is incorrect and misleading is solely based on your faith.

I think the whole Jews rejected Jesus so he is not a Jewish messiah can only go so far. If you went back 2000years and told this argument to all those practicing Jews who (gasp) accepted Christ, they would laugh at your face (like Paul as example): They would say: You are telling us about Judaism? Come on now. Of course the ones who rejected him would agree with you, maybe.
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#141 of 177 Old 08-11-2007, 03:43 PM
 
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The Christian belief (for most of history) has been that the prophecies about the Messiah in the Hebrew Bible were not meant to be taken literally.
This may be true of your particular version of Christianity, but the overwhelming majority of Christians I know (and I'm not speaking only of those who claim to take the bible literally) believe as I and others have described-- that the requirements for the Messiah will be fulfilled when Jesus returns. (By 'overwhelming majority,' I mean, 'at least 90% of individuals who call themselves 'Christians' of any denomination.)

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OK now I am totally confused. I am talking about the recognition of Christ as the Savior or Messiah. I thought this was central to Christianity. And I thought that the belief was that you had to accept this for salvation.
You're using the terms "savior" and "messiah" interchangeably; the rest of us aren't. Instead, we are discussing the concept of "messiah" or "moshiach," which has remarkably little to do with "salvation," as Christians today know the concept. (In other words, it's a debate for a whole different thread.)

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#142 of 177 Old 08-11-2007, 03:46 PM
 
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and what does that have to do with how many times he has appeared on earth?

I guess there may be a communication gap here. I don't know how to explain the difference between the Christian Christ and the Jewish Messiah. Except, they are not the same, they are not the same person, etc- all that has been said before.

Salvation comes through excepting Jesus Christ as your savior and believing that he was born of a virgin, was sacrificed for the redemption of the world's sins, rose after 3 days and now sits at the right hand of the Holy Father.

The above has absolutely nothing to do with Judaism.

Or...

Judaism...

A man named Jesus was born...

Some believe him to be their savior (these people may have or may have not BEEN Jewish)

Jesus grows, the story of his birth and immaculate conception circulate...

Others begin to listen to Jesus' teachings...these people if once Jewish are no longer RELIGIOUS Jews...

Christianity develops and grows.

The ONLY thing Christianity and Judaism have in common is a mid-point.

Christianity took off in another direction.

Ever thought that God presents himself to people in ways that will bring understanding? We all don't understand things the same way.

God presents himself as God the Father in the OT, right?

Presents himself as a man, right?

Present as the Holy Spirit, right?

And GOD will present himself as the Messiah for the Jewish people- but this messiah will NOT be Jesus.

Why? Because Jesus did NOT fulfill the requirements for the messiah of Judaism. He DID fulfill the requirements for the Christian savior.

It is so clear to me, but perhaps I am not coming across clearly enough.
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#143 of 177 Old 08-11-2007, 03:47 PM
 
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On that note, I will stop saying "Jesus is a Jewish Messiah" if it offends anyone here.
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#144 of 177 Old 08-11-2007, 03:49 PM
 
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On that note, I will stop saying "Jesus is a Jewish Messiah" if it offends anyone here.
It's not so much offensive as it is just ...incorrect.
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#145 of 177 Old 08-11-2007, 03:51 PM
 
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Maybe this will help:

Did Jesus fulfill THESE requirements:

1.He must be a father-to-son descendant of King David. Therefore, a Kohein, Levi, or a convert (and his children) cannot be Moshiach.

2.He must be completely immersed in the study of Torah, just like his ancestor David.

3.He must follow the entire Torah, both the Written and the Oral.

4.He must lead all the Jews back to the Torah, so that they follow all its laws.

What the Messiah is NOT:

Moshiach will be a normal human being born from human parents. He will not be a god, or a “son of god”.

Moshiach will be mortal. He will not live forever. When he dies he will be succeeded by his son, like any normal king.

Moshiach will not atone for our sins. Every person must atone for his own sins; no one else can do it for you.

Moshiach will not change the laws of the Torah in any way. If he attempts to do so then we know that he is a false messiah.
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#146 of 177 Old 08-11-2007, 03:55 PM
 
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Jesus fulfilled requirements of Prophet, Priest and King- but of a Heavenly nature, not Earthly.
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#147 of 177 Old 08-11-2007, 04:01 PM
 
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It's not so much offensive as it is just ...incorrect.
Incorrect to you, correct to me.
But I won't say it anymore, but I'll still think it.
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#148 of 177 Old 08-11-2007, 04:11 PM
 
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mamabadger, did you miss my post #119? I was looking forward to your answer
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#149 of 177 Old 08-11-2007, 04:20 PM
 
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Incorrect to you, correct to me.
But I won't say it anymore, but I'll still think it.
Ok, but this isn't the point. I think there is a confusion on both our parts and we may actual agree with each other.

There is no "incorrect to me."

What you believe, whether spoken or not, is wrong. Not to me but to doctrine.

Judaism and Christianity are not one in the same, they have a starting point in common but other than that nothing.
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#150 of 177 Old 08-11-2007, 10:57 PM
 
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mamabadger, did you miss my post #119? I was looking forward to your answer
Sorry! The answer is much too long, though, so I sent you a PM instead.
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