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#151 of 177 Old 08-12-2007, 12:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Potty Diva View Post

Salvation comes through excepting Jesus Christ as your savior and believing that
I'm guessing you mean "accepting"...

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God presents himself as God the Father in the OT, right?

Presents himself as a man, right?

Present as the Holy Spirit, right?

And GOD will present himself as the Messiah for the Jewish people- but this messiah will NOT be Jesus.
AFAIK, in Jewish tradition, G-d does not present as a man or woman. Angels have presented as men. But that is all.

I also do not think there is a concept of "holy spirit" in Judaism.

AND finally, G-d will not present G-d's self as Moshiach. The Moshiach will be a human being only. The Moshiach must fulfill all prophesies, including world peace, which I just can't see that that has happened at. all. But the Moshiach will remain human throughout.

Also, there is a lot of teaching within Judaism about making sure that people understand the difference between people and G-d. The difference b/w prophets and G-d. The difference b/w angels and G-d. G-d is G-d. There is no other. Neither people, nor angels, nor prophets, nor the Moshiach can be G-d.

This is basic and simple Jewish belief.
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#152 of 177 Old 08-12-2007, 01:52 AM
 
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Sorry! The answer is much too long, though, so I sent you a PM instead.

Well that's not fair at all! I'm reading this thread with great interest and I'd like to read your response, dang it!
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#153 of 177 Old 08-12-2007, 02:30 AM - Thread Starter
 
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On that note, I will stop saying "Jesus is a Jewish Messiah" if it offends anyone here.


Thanks. It was the whole sticking point for me that inspired the thread.


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#154 of 177 Old 08-12-2007, 07:55 AM
 
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This may be true of your particular version of Christianity, but the overwhelming majority of Christians I know (and I'm not speaking only of those who claim to take the bible literally) believe as I and others have described-- that the requirements for the Messiah will be fulfilled when Jesus returns. (By 'overwhelming majority,' I mean, 'at least 90% of individuals who call themselves 'Christians' of any denomination.)
I was raised Catholic (and went to 12 years of Catholic school) and am now Episcopalian (Anglican). Those 2 denominations comprise the majority of the world's Christians. That Jesus will fulfill the literal criteria for the Messiah when he returns may be a theory that some hold, BUT it is definitely not taught, and the emphasis in these denominations is on the SPIRITUAL meaning of the prophesies. I'm not sure where you're getting your figure of "90% of individuals who call themselves Christian," but it is inaccurate.
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#155 of 177 Old 08-12-2007, 10:31 AM
 
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I'm guessing you mean "accepting"...



AFAIK, in Jewish tradition, G-d does not present as a man or woman. Angels have presented as men. But that is all.

I also do not think there is a concept of "holy spirit" in Judaism.

AND finally, G-d will not present G-d's self as Moshiach. The Moshiach will be a human being only. The Moshiach must fulfill all prophesies, including world peace, which I just can't see that that has happened at. all. But the Moshiach will remain human throughout.

Also, there is a lot of teaching within Judaism about making sure that people understand the difference between people and G-d. The difference b/w prophets and G-d. The difference b/w angels and G-d. G-d is G-d. There is no other. Neither people, nor angels, nor prophets, nor the Moshiach can be G-d.

This is basic and simple Jewish belief.

yes I meant accepting- don't be a snot. I was typing quickly.

Also, I wasn't talking about Judaism, I was talking about CHRISTIANITY. WHY BRING UP Judaism. *I* know the difference. Were you just pointing this out to others? I couldn't tell because you started your post with snot.
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#156 of 177 Old 08-12-2007, 07:08 PM
 
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Ok, but this isn't the point. I think there is a confusion on both our parts and we may actual agree with each other.

There is no "incorrect to me."

What you believe, whether spoken or not, is wrong. Not to me but to doctrine.

Judaism and Christianity are not one in the same, they have a starting point in common but other than that nothing.
Hmm, which doctrine, exactly?

I think I am pretty clear that Judaism and Christianity is not the same thing, but Jewish doesn't always equal Judaism. So to call something Jewish doesn't necessarily mean that I'm connecting it to Judaism. I thought I made that point clear, but I guess not.

And on the other note, you are talking to someone who got so much crap for becoming Christian. So when someone tells me Judaism and Christianity are not one in the same, I have 4 words to say to that: Believe me, I know.
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#157 of 177 Old 08-12-2007, 10:20 PM
 
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I was raised Catholic (and went to 12 years of Catholic school) and am now Episcopalian (Anglican). Those 2 denominations comprise the majority of the world's Christians. That Jesus will fulfill the literal criteria for the Messiah when he returns may be a theory that some hold, BUT it is definitely not taught, and the emphasis in these denominations is on the SPIRITUAL meaning of the prophesies. I'm not sure where you're getting your figure of "90% of individuals who call themselves Christian," but it is inaccurate.
Fair enough; let me qualify-- OF the individuals with whom I have communicated on the subject who call themselves Christians, at least 90% believe as I have described. These would be people of all walks of life, of various denominations, from all over the world (though a fair majority of them live in central PA). I've met travelling missionaries of all stripes, I've done a little bit of travelling, I've spoken with people over the internet and I've had the distinct impression that this is what the vast majority of Christians believe. The other 10% usually believe either that a) it's all allegory or b) that Jesus already fulfilled all of the prophecies (. It may not be true of the people you know or the churches you've been to, but it's very true of the people I've encountered, and there have been many. Even people who are only nominally Christian are willing, nay eager, to preach to my heathen ass. A lot of them talk to me. A LOT. :

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#158 of 177 Old 08-12-2007, 11:21 PM
 
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I was typing quickly.
See now, I wasn't being a snot. I was teasing. It was a funny misprint is all.

And I misunderstood your intended audience. I'm sorry.
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#159 of 177 Old 08-12-2007, 11:27 PM
 
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No, I'm sorry. UGH! My fault completely.

I guess I am still reeling over the grammar threads.

Sorry mama.
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#160 of 177 Old 08-12-2007, 11:30 PM
 
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Hmm, which doctrine, exactly?

I think I am pretty clear that Judaism and Christianity is not the same thing, but Jewish doesn't always equal Judaism. So to call something Jewish doesn't necessarily mean that I'm connecting it to Judaism. I thought I made that point clear, but I guess not.

And on the other note, you are talking to someone who got so much crap for becoming Christian. So when someone tells me Judaism and Christianity are not one in the same, I have 4 words to say to that: Believe me, I know.
Oh, ok. So there are points we agree on.

I try to make the distinction between RELIGIOUS judaism and ETHNIC judaism, ya know? That's why I usually use one or the other when discussing topics such as this.

I'm sorry you got crap for converting. It's why I'm not telling anyone about my conversion (in real life anyways- you mamas don't count )
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#161 of 177 Old 08-13-2007, 02:25 AM
 
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I decided that was too off topic I'll start another thread and ask
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#162 of 177 Old 08-13-2007, 02:57 AM
 
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Can I offer my semi-educated opinion? I think there are quite a number of Jews out there that are "spirituality seekers". Many of these kids were exposed to either the Hebrew School version of Judaism or the ethnic Jewish "home-school" version. So when they decide to seek spirituality, they feel like they already *tried* Judaism, they must need to look elsewhere, right? I think this also answers why they are so many JuBu's and Jews in ashrams, etc. We are really overrepresented in many other religions and cults.
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#163 of 177 Old 08-13-2007, 08:57 AM
 
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Fair enough; let me qualify-- OF the individuals with whom I have communicated on the subject who call themselves Christians, at least 90% believe as I have described. These would be people of all walks of life, of various denominations, from all over the world (though a fair majority of them live in central PA). I've met travelling missionaries of all stripes, I've done a little bit of travelling, I've spoken with people over the internet and I've had the distinct impression that this is what the vast majority of Christians believe. The other 10% usually believe either that a) it's all allegory or b) that Jesus already fulfilled all of the prophecies (. It may not be true of the people you know or the churches you've been to, but it's very true of the people I've encountered, and there have been many. Even people who are only nominally Christian are willing, nay eager, to preach to my heathen ass. A lot of them talk to me. A LOT. :
And I'm definitely not trying to preach to your "heathen ass." It just irks me that the most public face of Christianity is the kind that your describing, and that is by no means representative of all or even most Christians, now or throughout history.
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#164 of 177 Old 08-13-2007, 04:03 PM
 
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I'm not Jewish.
I'm reconciling with my Catholic childhood (through my stepmother) and will begin RCIA in September).

And *I* see and AGREE with what merpk and others are saying. Jesus did not fulfill requirements to be messiah for Jews, but DOES fulfill requirements to be the Messiah for Christians.

Why is this such a hard concept to grasp for some?
I don't know if you're going to be too happy, then. The RCC teaches that Jesus was THE Messiah (not just a Messiah for Christians) who fulfilled all of the Hebrew prophecies.
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#165 of 177 Old 08-13-2007, 07:48 PM
 
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The RCC teaches that Jesus was THE Messiah (not just a Messiah for Christians) who fulfilled all of the Hebrew prophecies.
Just curious: What are the prophesies delineated by the RCC that he is said by the RCC to have fulfilled?
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#166 of 177 Old 08-14-2007, 09:02 AM
 
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Just curious: What are the prophesies delineated by the RCC that he is said by the RCC to have fulfilled?
Please see my above posts.
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#167 of 177 Old 08-14-2007, 09:47 AM
 
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I don't know if you're going to be too happy, then. The RCC teaches that Jesus was THE Messiah (not just a Messiah for Christians) who fulfilled all of the Hebrew prophecies.
Yes, I am aware of this. What's your point?
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#168 of 177 Old 08-14-2007, 12:21 PM
 
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Yes, I am aware of this. What's your point?
I just think it's interesting, given the topic of the thread. If you don't believe Jesus is who the RCC says He is, why would you want to be one? Isn't that the kind of thing we've been talking about wrt to Judaism?

At any rate I don't really care, I was simply pointing it out since it seemed possible you might not realize.
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#169 of 177 Old 08-14-2007, 01:03 PM
 
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So in another thread there is an assertion that to say "Jesus cannot be the Jewish messiah and I'll tell you why" is disrespectful and is the equivalent of saying "I'm right and you're wrong."

I respectfully disagree.

Saying Jesus is not the Jewish messiah is stating the facts of Judaism and is stating normative Jewish thought in *all* streams of Judaism.



Saying that Jesus is the Jewish messiah is stating Christian theology, or Messianic theology, which is not Jewish theology. And you know what? Saying that Jesus is the Jewish messiah is insulting to Jews.



Again, to be clear:

You all can say Jesus was the messiah all you want. No problems there. It's when you say he was the Jewish Messiah that it's a problem.




And while I'm at it, Christian theology and Muslim theology are both "supercessionist" (sp?) in that they say Judaism blew it and they are the "correct" and "final say" on the subject. Is that disrespectful as well? So do I get to be offended when anything Abrahamic-yet-not-Jewish is posted?
I agree with your post.

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#170 of 177 Old 08-14-2007, 03:56 PM
 
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I just think it's interesting, given the topic of the thread. If you don't believe Jesus is who the RCC says He is, why would you want to be one? Isn't that the kind of thing we've been talking about wrt to Judaism?

At any rate I don't really care, I was simply pointing it out since it seemed possible you might not realize.
And this is where we differ in thinking. To me my conversion to Catholicism and this thread topic are not related. THIS is the problem with posters who do not understand this thread topic.
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#171 of 177 Old 08-14-2007, 09:07 PM
 
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Please see my above posts.
Help me out here and link me to which ones, please?
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#172 of 177 Old 08-15-2007, 10:50 AM
 
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See posts 46 and 136. These articles might also be helpful:

http://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/disp.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/disp/disp4.html
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm

This article explains the historically recent view of dispensationalism (I didn't realize it had a name!) that expects literal fulfillment of the prophecies of the Hebrew Bible at the time of the so-called Second Coming:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism
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#173 of 177 Old 08-15-2007, 09:33 PM
 
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Okay, well before, I was certain I wasn't confused, but now I definitely am. My understanding before was the the RCC does NOT teach that the fulfillment of the prophecies was literal.

But when CherryBomb says this:
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The RCC teaches that Jesus was THE Messiah (not just a Messiah for Christians) who fulfilled all of the Hebrew prophecies.
I think she does mean fulfilling the prophesies. The actual ones. Not metaphoric.

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#174 of 177 Old 08-15-2007, 10:20 PM
 
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Now I'm confused.
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#175 of 177 Old 08-16-2007, 09:08 AM
 
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I can't speak for CherryBomb, but I don't think she meant that Jesus fulfilled all of the prophesies in a literal way--it would be inconsistent with Roman Catholic teaching. I think she meant that the RCC teaches that Jesus is the fulfillment of the prophesies (not all literally) in the Hebrew Bible, and that he was the promised Messiah for all. Roman Catholics do not believe there is another spiritual Messiah coming for the Jews, if that's what's confusing you.
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#176 of 177 Old 08-16-2007, 03:55 PM
 
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My posts have nothing to do with Catholicism- just to clarify.
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#177 of 177 Old 08-17-2007, 01:22 AM
 
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Okay, if that's what she meant, now I understand.
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