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#1 of 177 Old 08-08-2007, 01:43 PM - Thread Starter
 
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So in another thread there is an assertion that to say "Jesus cannot be the Jewish messiah and I'll tell you why" is disrespectful and is the equivalent of saying "I'm right and you're wrong."

I respectfully disagree.

Saying Jesus is not the Jewish messiah is stating the facts of Judaism and is stating normative Jewish thought in *all* streams of Judaism.



Saying that Jesus is the Jewish messiah is stating Christian theology, or Messianic theology, which is not Jewish theology. And you know what? Saying that Jesus is the Jewish messiah is insulting to Jews.



Again, to be clear:

You all can say Jesus was the messiah all you want. No problems there. It's when you say he was the Jewish Messiah that it's a problem.




And while I'm at it, Christian theology and Muslim theology are both "supercessionist" (sp?) in that they say Judaism blew it and they are the "correct" and "final say" on the subject. Is that disrespectful as well? So do I get to be offended when anything Abrahamic-yet-not-Jewish is posted?
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#2 of 177 Old 08-08-2007, 02:11 PM
 
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i think it is all a matter of semantics-
if you say "i believe ...."
or even "the Jewish people believe.... and this is why" it does not offend, it does not belittle other faiths.

but to say this is the truth- and here is why- thay is saying that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong.

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#3 of 177 Old 08-08-2007, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I did not say in the other thread "this is the truth." I wouldn't say that because Judaism doesn't teach that Judaism is the truth for anyone who isn't Jewish.



I said in my post in the other thread, "If you read my link you will see that it is impossible for Jesus to be the Jewish messiah. Period."

I didn't say that Jesus wasn't the Christian messiah. I wouldn't say that. Because obviously he is. Right? *That* would have been stomping on other people's truths. And I did not do that.

But I was told that my comment that "it is impossible for Jesus to be the Jewish messiah" was disrespectful and was telling other people that they're wrong.




And that itself is wrong ... it is the people telling the Jews that Jesus is the messiah of the Jews who are wrong. And disrespectful.
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#4 of 177 Old 08-08-2007, 02:37 PM
 
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but to say this is the truth- and here is why- thay is saying that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong.
she's not saying "this is the truth" she's saying "this is Judaism, and this is not." And (please don't be offended, Amy, because I love you!) while she probably could have phrased it more tactfully, she's right. One is Judaism, and the other *isn't*.

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#5 of 177 Old 08-08-2007, 02:51 PM
 
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or even "the Jewish people believe.... and this is why" it does not offend, it does not belittle other faiths.
It sounded to me like she was saying "according to Judaism/Jewish People, he couldn't be the messiah because he didn't fulfill the criteria XYZ". That was how I interpreted.
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#6 of 177 Old 08-08-2007, 03:45 PM
 
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So in another thread there is an assertion that to say "Jesus cannot be the Jewish messiah and I'll tell you why" is disrespectful and is the equivalent of saying "I'm right and you're wrong."
Please do not mischaracterize my assertion. What I said I felt was disrespectful was the way you titled the link you posted "The Jewish criteria for Mashiakh, along with basic answers as to why Jesus need not apply for the job."

The underlined, bolded, italicized portion IS disrespectful, IMO. NOT why Jesus may or may not be the Messiah. I have no problem with people disagreeing with me, but don't try to put words in my mouth.
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#7 of 177 Old 08-08-2007, 03:49 PM
 
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What would be wrong with going ahead and saying "this is the truth!"?

In matters of religion, if you take your religion seriously, of course you think that you are right and other people are mistaken. There's nothing wrong about saying that, even if others do feel offended.

I don't believe that my religion is just "my truth, for me," I believe it is True. I could choose to be offended by someone saying that it is "true for YOU." Or I could choose to hear that and say "Well, I have learned more about how some other people think today."
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#8 of 177 Old 08-08-2007, 04:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by merpk View Post
So in another thread there is an assertion that to say "Jesus cannot be the Jewish messiah and I'll tell you why" is disrespectful and is the equivalent of saying "I'm right and you're wrong."

I respectfully disagree.

Saying Jesus is not the Jewish messiah is stating the facts of Judaism and is stating normative Jewish thought in *all* streams of Judaism.



Saying that Jesus is the Jewish messiah is stating Christian theology, or Messianic theology, which is not Jewish theology. And you know what? Saying that Jesus is the Jewish messiah is insulting to Jews.



Again, to be clear:

You all can say Jesus was the messiah all you want. No problems there. It's when you say he was the Jewish Messiah that it's a problem.




And while I'm at it, Christian theology and Muslim theology are both "supercessionist" (sp?) in that they say Judaism blew it and they are the "correct" and "final say" on the subject. Is that disrespectful as well? So do I get to be offended when anything Abrahamic-yet-not-Jewish is posted?
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#9 of 177 Old 08-08-2007, 04:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Please do not mischaracterize my assertion. What I said I felt was disrespectful was the way you titled the link you posted "The Jewish criteria for Mashiakh, along with basic answers as to why Jesus need not apply for the job."

The underlined, bolded, italicized portion IS disrespectful, IMO. NOT why Jesus may or may not be the Messiah. I have no problem with people disagreeing with me, but don't try to put words in my mouth.


Excuse me. I wasn't even referring to your post, actually. I agreed that I could have phrased that better, and edited my post to reflect that. But then another poster said that my post was *still* disrespectful.



And you know what? Saying that Jesus need not even apply for the job as the Jewish Messiah is saying the same thing. I didn't say, need not apply for the job as the Christian messiah, because, well, he's obviously already been hired; point's moot.



I changed the post because I didn't want to dis anybody's god. But I have zero problem insisting that he is not the Jewish messiah under any stream of Judaism or any Jewish theology.









Yeah, eilonwy, I'm not tactful sometimes. Part of my lack-o'-charm. Which is one of the reasons why I moved to a country where no-one-absolutely-no-one is tactful. Part of its charm.




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What would be wrong with going ahead and saying "this is the truth!"?

In matters of religion, if you take your religion seriously, of course you think that you are right and other people are mistaken. There's nothing wrong about saying that, even if others do feel offended.

I don't believe that my religion is just "my truth, for me," I believe it is True. I could choose to be offended by someone saying that it is "true for YOU." Or I could choose to hear that and say "Well, I have learned more about how some other people think today."
And that's an interesting point. In Jewish thought, Judaism is truth only for the Jews.. Other peoples have their own truths.


When the Mashiakh (the Jewish messiah) comes, everyone in the world is supposed to acknowledge the G!d of Avraham&Sarah, but that doesn't mean they'll necessarily convert to be Jews.


Which is another thing that bugs me: I didn't tell anyone that their truth isn't true. I didn't say anything about Jesus' relationship to anyone who believes that he's their messiah. But to call him the "Jewish messiah" is to put a Christian version of truth over Judaism, which not only strongly disagrees with that statement but which has been oppressed and treated very brutally for disagreeing with that statement.
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#10 of 177 Old 08-08-2007, 05:10 PM
 
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Excuse me. I wasn't even referring to your post, actually. I agreed that I could have phrased that better, and edited my post to reflect that. But then another poster said that my post was *still* disrespectful.
My apologies then for misunderstanding.

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And you know what? Saying that Jesus need not even apply for the job as the Jewish Messiah is saying the same thing. I didn't say, need not apply for the job as the Christian messiah, because, well, he's obviously already been hired; point's moot.
However, you didn't SAY Jesus need not apply as the Jewish Messiah. Believe it or not, there are Christians who use many variations of "Messiah" equivalently when they are in a language other than English. "Mashiakh" is one of them. It is not exclusively the Jewish Messiah, although you may not agree.

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I changed the post because I didn't want to dis anybody's god. But I have zero problem insisting that he is not the Jewish messiah under any stream of Judaism or any Jewish theology.
No problem with your viewpoint or your insistence. It's cool with me.
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#11 of 177 Old 08-08-2007, 05:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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However, you didn't SAY Jesus need not apply as the Jewish Messiah. Believe it or not, there are Christians who use many variations of "Messiah" equivalently when they are in a language other than English. "Mashiakh" is one of them. It is not exclusively the Jewish Messiah, although you may not agree.


First of all, where I live there are a whole lot of Christians who use the word "mashiakh" in their daily religious lives and I would never think twice about it. They're Christians living in a country where Hebrew is the official language, so why wouldn't they?





And yes, I did SAY Jesus need not apply as the Jewish Messiah. (Not shouting, just using your caps.)




Let me rephrase it and tell me what you think:
The Walmart criteria for Manager, along with basic answers as to why Paul need not apply for the job."


So this is a Manager for Walmart, using Walmart's criteria as far as what constitutes the job responsibilities of a Manager.


If you read that sentence, no one can think that I'm saying Paul need not apply for the job of Manager at Blockbuster Video. I didn't say Blockbuster Video. Even though Blockbuster Video most certainly has a job title called "Manager."







My post was very clear. I stand by it.





In re Christians and anyone not in Israel using the word "mashiakh" ...



Here is a fascinating link explaining the Messianic terminology and why they are used instead of standard Christian terms. It specifically explains what terms Messianics should use when they speak with Jews and why certain terms might upset Jews.

And if you follow a link on that page you get to this page, titled "Indigenizing ministries,, where among other things, this point highlighted: "Contextualizing the gospel: The gospel's contents never change, but the way in which it is presented, packaged and patterned should vary widely from one culture and sub-culture to the next for the sake of relating in the best possible way to the greatest number of people."

Which leads me to at people using the term "mashiakh" to refer to their messiah. If they don't live where I live, anyway.



But it's a free world. Whatever language you want, go ahead and use. Just don't insist that because the word "mashiakh" is used, that automatically means I have to let deeply offensive theological untruths fly by.
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#12 of 177 Old 08-08-2007, 05:42 PM
 
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Fine, you're right, merp. :yawning:
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#13 of 177 Old 08-08-2007, 05:50 PM
 
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But to call him the "Jewish messiah" is to put a Christian version of truth over Judaism, which not only strongly disagrees with that statement but which has been oppressed and treated very brutally for disagreeing with that statement.
I'm wondering if Jewish mamas on MDC would find it disrespectful for a Christian to say "I believe Jesus is the Jewish Messiah." Because IMO a cool part of Christianity is that some of us believe that the Messiah that God had promised and sent was not the Messiah that was expected. So to say that Jesus is the Christian Messiah doesn't make much sense to me since a key part of Christian belief is that Jesus is the Messiah promised to the Jews. Is there anyway to express this without being disrespectful to Jews?
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#14 of 177 Old 08-08-2007, 05:58 PM
 
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I was under the impression that even the very most mainstream branches of Christianity DO believe Jesus is the Jewish messiah. I mean granted I don't have a doctorate in theology, but I do know the words to some Christmas carols.

Jews are free to believe Jesus was not the messiah. Christians are free to believe he was. Christians aren't trying to be proper Jews, so it doesn't really matter if Christians uphold proper Jewish theology.
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#15 of 177 Old 08-08-2007, 06:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks, mtiger, I know.






C'P, honestly, no, there isn't. That's my point. The statement that he was the "Jewish messiah" is directly contradicted by Judaism's beliefs, by Jewish scriptures and the fact is that the Jewish refusal to accept Jesus as the Jewish Messiah led to 2000 years of persecution and mass murder of Jews.



It's impossible to even say the words without wondering why Jews don't accept Jesus, right?



How can he be the "Jewish Messiah" if the Jews don't believe he's the Messiah?




Even calling him the "Jewish Messiah" is to say "Christians are right and Jews are wrong."



Which is what someone called me out for in the first place, for denying that.





Which is why I started this thread. Because I was accused of doing the I'm right/you're wrong thing when I told someone saying ChristiansAreRight/JewsAreWrong (ie., the called Jesus the "Jewish messiah") that they were putting their truths on me. And then I was accused of doing that by telling them so. :


And around and around and around and around ...
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#16 of 177 Old 08-08-2007, 06:16 PM
 
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So to say that Jesus is the Christian Messiah doesn't make much sense to me since a key part of Christian belief is that Jesus is the Messiah promised to the Jews. Is there anyway to express this without being disrespectful to Jews?
It really is a key point. The very concept of a Messiah is Jewish, it didn't originate in the first century A.D. Even the term "Jewish Messiah" is redundant; the concept of the Messiah doesn't exist in any other religion. You can't talk about a Messiah without at least referencing Judaism and Jewish Scripture.

Is there a polite way to express this? How about, Christians believe that Jesus was the Messiah promised to the Jewish people; Jews believe he wasn't, and are still waiting for their Messiah.
That was the situation from the beginning: first century Jews who accepted Jesus as the Messiah followed him, and became known as Christians, along with later non-Jewish converts. They split completely with jews who did not accept Jesus as the Messiah, who are still known today simply as Jews.

Does that work?
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#17 of 177 Old 08-08-2007, 06:18 PM
 
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key part of Christian belief is that Jesus is the Messiah promised to the Jews. Is there anyway to express this without being disrespectful to Jews?
exactly my thoughts- and why the post offended me. i belief that Yeshua is the Messiah prophesied about in the Jewish writings. so to tell me that "Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah" is telling me that you think i am wrong- fine you think i am wrong- i have no problem with that. it just felt disrespectful in that thread that was all about understanding one another to state it so blatently and brashly without couching it in a this is what i belief or this is what my faith believes.
if you want to discuss terminology and why it may be offensive to those of the Jewish faith- i am all about that. (although i have to be honest i am having a difficult time understanding your last couple of posts- could be my cold, could be a difference in communication styles)
if you want to discuss why your beliefs are the truth- fine whatever-
i just thought the other thread was all about acceptance, and i felt that my belief system wasn't being accepted.

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#18 of 177 Old 08-08-2007, 06:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I was under the impression that even the very most mainstream branches of Christianity DO believe Jesus is the Jewish messiah. I mean granted I don't have a doctorate in theology, but I do know the words to some Christmas carols.

Jews are free to believe Jesus was not the messiah. Christians are free to believe he was. Christians aren't trying to be proper Jews, so it doesn't really matter if Christians uphold proper Jewish theology.


That's right. Christians are free to believe that he was the Christian messiah.

The fact is, though, that they believe that because he was the so-called Jewish messiah and the Jews reject him, the Jews are damned. Period.

The Jews don't believe he was the messiah. We could care less what the Christians believe, except for the fact that the Christian wording that he was the "Jewish messiah" is specifically saying "Jews reject Jesus."

Which we do. We've got no problem with rejecting him. What we do have a problem with is Christians beating up on us for rejecting him.

And I've got a problem with the whole supercessionist thing inherent in the whole shebang. But hey, this isn't about me.





Then there's the separate issue, as I showed in my links upthread, about use of Jewish terminology being a missionizing tactic. But honestly, that's not what I'm ranting about here.
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#19 of 177 Old 08-08-2007, 06:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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if you want to discuss why your beliefs are the truth- fine whatever-
i just thought the other thread was all about acceptance, and i felt that my belief system wasn't being accepted.

You're entirely not understanding me, apparently, because I've spent several posts repeating and rerepeating how Judaism doesn't do "we're truth and you're not" to nonJews. And neither do I.


The other thread *was* all about acceptance. And then someone did the whole "Jesus is the Jewish messiah" thing, which to me is all about slaughtering Jews. Not very much acceptance there. And saying "Jesus is the Jewish messiah" specifically means that my belief system wasn't being accepted. (Again, because if he was the Jewish messiah, then my refusal to accept him means I'm (a) wrong and (b) damned to hellfire, or some such fun stuff.)





mamabadger, how about just calling Jesus your messiah? Or the messiah of Jesus-believers? The early Church worked very hard to remove all vestiges of Judaism from early Christianity ... and continued to do that, using the "Jewish messiah" thing as a cudgel with which to batter Jews. So why should the thing be something all warm&fuzzy now?





This may be a bit of a conundrum to you all, maybe, but not to me. Clear as day from where I'm sittin'.
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#20 of 177 Old 08-08-2007, 06:48 PM
 
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I don't really see the issue. We can argue for eons about whether, say, Judaism is "right", but there are facts involved. You can't make a pig kosher, you can't make Vishnu not a Hindu god, you can't make Christians not believe that Jesus is the Messiah. And along the same lines, you can't say Jesus is the Jewish messiah. The people who get to decide who the Jewish messiah is are Jews. The fact that Christians believe that Jesus is, in fact, the Messiah doesn't make him the Jewish messiah, it makes him the Christian one. They now have their own set of terms and definitions. Christians don't get to dictate the terms of Judaism, just like I can't tell a Muslim what the Koran says.

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#21 of 177 Old 08-08-2007, 07:37 PM
 
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I don't really see the issue. We can argue for eons about whether, say, Judaism is "right", but there are facts involved. You can't make a pig kosher, you can't make Vishnu not a Hindu god, you can't make Christians not believe that Jesus is the Messiah. And along the same lines, you can't say Jesus is the Jewish messiah. The people who get to decide who the Jewish messiah is are Jews. The fact that Christians believe that Jesus is, in fact, the Messiah doesn't make him the Jewish messiah, it makes him the Christian one. They now have their own set of terms and definitions. Christians don't get to dictate the terms of Judaism, just like I can't tell a Muslim what the Koran says.
: This is, however, an argument that I've heard from many Christians, many time. Why? Because *they* are so thoroughly convinced that they are right and we are wrong that they can't even see the contradiction.

I'd have NO problems whatsoever with Christians if they could manage to say, "From a Christian perspective, this is true," but they don't-- they keep insisting that they have a better, more complete understanding of Judaism and Jewish thought than do actual Jews. "It's in the old testament, you should agree with me!" "Jesus WAS the Jewish Messiah, if you knew your scripture you'd agree with me!" : Come now. I'm not saying "Stop believing in Jesus, stop calling him 'Christ' or 'Messiah,' if you had read your own scripture you'd know you were wrong." Just the opposite-- from your perspective, it may be true... but if you're going to call him the Jewish Moshiach... well, you're just wrong. And you're never going to be right about that. That's right, I'm saying it-- if you're a Christian who "knows" that Jesus was hte *Jewish* Messiah, you're wrong.

It'd be like... well, like the manager of a Walmart trying to tell the CEO of Dell how to do his job. It just wouldn't make any sense.

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You can't make a pig kosher, ... [and] you can't say Jesus is the Jewish messiah. <snip> The people who get to decide who the Jewish messiah is are [practicing] Jews.... Christians don't get to dictate the terms of Judaism.
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#23 of 177 Old 08-08-2007, 07:44 PM
 
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It'd be like... well, like the manager of a Walmart trying to tell the CEO of Dell how to do his job. It just wouldn't make any sense.
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#24 of 177 Old 08-08-2007, 08:05 PM
 
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I don't see how it would be too difficult for Christians to say "Jesus is our Messiah" or even "Jesus is the Messiah." Why reference Judaism at all if you're talking about Christianity?

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#25 of 177 Old 08-08-2007, 08:47 PM
 
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The fact is, though, that they believe that because he was the so-called Jewish messiah and the Jews reject him, the Jews are damned. Period.
Who's "they?" There may well be Christians who believe that the Jews as a people are damned. My own church believes nothing of the kind, and personally, I've never run into someone who included that idea as part of their "Christian" belief who wasn't ignorant and confused on the subject. It's depressing even to have to apologize for these all the time.
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I don't see how it would be too difficult for Christians to say "Jesus is our Messiah" or even "Jesus is the Messiah." Why reference Judaism at all if you're talking about Christianity?
Just saying "Jesus in the Messiah" would be fine, but as I said before, you can't talk about the Messiah without referencing Judaism because the entire concept is Jewish. The fact that Christ turned up in Judea wasn't incidental, as if he might just as well have been born in Sweden. You can't get away from the origins of Christianity without erasing most of its beliefs and practices and cutting it off from its roots.
I sometimes use the word Israelite or Hebrew to distinguish ancient from modern (post-Christian) Judaism. Would that be any more acceptable? If so, I'll change my terminology.
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Merpk: And I've got a problem with the whole supercessionist thing inherent in the whole shebang.
I'm trying to be sensitive to that. I have much the same problem with other religions co-opting Christianity as an early, faulty version of their own beliefs. That's annoying, to say the least, but I don't usually feel it's my place to correct them, beyond pointing out that Christians don't agree with their position. Is this really much different?
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#26 of 177 Old 08-08-2007, 09:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mamabadger View Post
I'm trying to be sensitive to that. I have much the same problem with other religions co-opting Christianity as an early, faulty version of their own beliefs. That's annoying, to say the least, but I don't usually feel it's my place to correct them, beyond pointing out that Christians don't agree with their position. Is this really much different?
It's only different because of the imbalance of power. It's not necessary for Christians to constantly fight against people who co-opt Christianity as an early, faulty version of their own beliefs because Christians are holding all the cards. They are the majority, they have all the power, what does it matter if a few gnats think of them as unevolved? It's very different for Jews, who are a tiny minority of people who have been, throughout history and during the present era, oppressed and repressed by Christians. In a BIG way.

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#27 of 177 Old 08-08-2007, 10:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by merpk View Post
The fact is, though, that they believe that because he was the so-called Jewish messiah and the Jews reject him, the Jews are damned. Period.
The majority of Christians today DO NOT believe this. I know historically Christians have persecuted Jews using all sorts of &#$% reasons, including this one, but with the exception of fundamental Christians (and I'm not sure even all of them believe Jews are damned), most Christians do not believe this.
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#28 of 177 Old 08-08-2007, 10:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ruthla View Post
I don't see how it would be too difficult for Christians to say "Jesus is our Messiah" or even "Jesus is the Messiah." Why reference Judaism at all if you're talking about Christianity?
How about this--what if a Christian says "I believe Jesus is the Messiah promised in the Hebrew Bible?" Is that offensive? Because we use books of the Hebrew Bible as our Holy Scripture, too, so we really can't divorce our belief in Jesus as the promised Messiah from it.
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#29 of 177 Old 08-08-2007, 10:54 PM
 
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Oy, not this again.

Listen, yes it matters that Jesus showed up in Judea. No he was not meant for Jews. He was meant for gentiles.

No, Jesus was not, is not, nor will he ever be the for Jews.

The Jewish people will have their messiah, but it isn't Jesus.
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#30 of 177 Old 08-08-2007, 11:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by merpk View Post
How can he be the "Jewish Messiah" if the Jews don't believe he's the Messiah?




Even calling him the "Jewish Messiah" is to say "Christians are right and Jews are wrong."



Which is what someone called me out for in the first place, for denying that.





..
How about thousands of Jews who decided that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah? Or their opinion don't count?
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