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#61 of 228 Old 10-25-2007, 06:51 PM
 
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I don't mean to upset you, but what happens when you husband dies suddenly? Or is in a coma? What will happen to you then?

My husband pays the bills. But I do know where all the bills are and whats been paid and what has not and how much are in our accounts. I think it would be a disservice to myself and my children to put them in a situation where I was clueless. No way!
This is interesting. I do the finances in my home. I am studying accounting, dh is not a numbers person. He could not tell you how much is in the account on any given day or how much is owed each month. He is the person who does primary cooking and grocery shopping. I can't tell you how much meat or milk or eggs is selling for at the store right now. If one of us were to pass, the other would be forced to take up the other responsibility. In the mean time, I guess there is way too much going on for us to do that much crosstraining or to worry about it.

I don't know the full definition of wifely submission I guess. But I do agree with BFM here.
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BUT - and it's a very important BUT - the very next thing it says in that verse is that husbands are to love their wives as they love their own selves/as Christ loves the Church (meaning: to the point of total self-sacrifice, ready and willing to die for her). So in our theology that is taken to mean that a woman is only supposed to be submissive to her husband insofar as he is loving her in that way. Thus, if a husband were abusive, lazy, horrid, leading the family to ruin, etc. (some some PPs mentioned) then a wife would certainly not expected to submit to that!
I guess for the most part in my family we each put the others needs and the needs of the family first.

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#62 of 228 Old 10-25-2007, 08:30 PM
 
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I find this topic intriguing.
I just love reading about people in general. How people live. Anthropology.

I don´t subscribe to wifely submission at all but if I take a look at my life from the outside, then it might seem as if I fall into the typical gender role....
But then again it´s my choice.
We unschool and I stay at home with ds. So it tends to be my responsibility to cook, clean etc.
But I also get to have way more freedom in my day than my dh does and I wouldn´t want to swap with him!


Anyway, I am curious about something:

Does being a christian submissive wife automatically mean that the relationship includes christian domestic discipline? Or are they two separate things? Reading about domestic discipline, I see they also mention head of the household.
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I am trying to understand the dynamics of being a submissive wife. That´s kind of why I asked about domestic discipline. I can´t imagine every submissive wife being the same, and every head of the household the same.

Is a submissive wife submissive in all aspects of the relationship? Does it mean she has to be submissive in the bedroom too - or does this mean only in matters of general day-to-day stuff?

Where does it start - where does it end?
Pia - I find your questions fun. I see your genuine curiosity and that makes then easy to answer.

For a glimpse into my world - I am struggling right now because I feel like my DH is giving me too much responsibility when he could be taking on more himself. I am doing too much at the shop and it's effecting (or affecting?) my mothering. For me, if I take on too much, I lose that magical connection I have with my children.
Being the mother is MY God given role and I love it. I am good at it. So when DH has me doing too many other things that interfere with that, I have to set some boundaries. (which I am SO not good at)

As far as DD - not even a little. I'd have his dad and the church men down on him so fast he wouldn't know what hit him (pun intended)

And sex? - It's pretty much all about me. I should probably try to balance that out a a little more huh?

I don't really even think the command/obey dynamic can/should be lumped with Biblical submission.
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#63 of 228 Old 10-25-2007, 10:49 PM
 
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Pia - I find your questions fun. I see your genuine curiosity and that makes then easy to answer.

For a glimpse into my world - I am struggling right now because I feel like my DH is giving me too much responsibility when he could be taking on more himself. I am doing too much at the shop and it's effecting (or affecting?) my mothering. For me, if I take on too much, I lose that magical connection I have with my children.
Being the mother is MY God given role and I love it. I am good at it. So when DH has me doing too many other things that interfere with that, I have to set some boundaries. (which I am SO not good at)

As far as DD - not even a little. I'd have his dad and the church men down on him so fast he wouldn't know what hit him (pun intended)

And sex? - It's pretty much all about me. I should probably try to balance that out a a little more huh?

I don't really even think the command/obey dynamic can/should be lumped with Biblical submission.
That sounds like two people filling roles they're comfortable with and enjoy. Why do you suppose other submissive wives seem to get this concept mixed up with abuse and control?
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#64 of 228 Old 10-25-2007, 10:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by KatWrangler View Post
I don't mean to upset you, but what happens when you husband dies suddenly? Or is in a coma? What will happen to you then?

My husband pays the bills. But I do know where all the bills are and whats been paid and what has not and how much are in our accounts. I think it would be a disservice to myself and my children to put them in a situation where I was clueless. No way!
No, it's a realistic question. And one I can easily answer- I've already lost one mate to death. I know where everything is stored, I just don't need to bother with it on a day to day basis, if that makes sense.

And I don't know any families engaging in domestic discipline and calling it wifely submission- it seems much more compatible with a dom/sub relationship which is much different.

To my husband I am wife, to my kids I am mother, but for myself I am just me.
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#65 of 228 Old 10-25-2007, 10:51 PM
 
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That sounds like two people filling roles they're comfortable with and enjoy. Why do you suppose other submissive wives seem to get this concept mixed up with abuse and control?
Which wives are you refering to?

To my husband I am wife, to my kids I am mother, but for myself I am just me.
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#66 of 228 Old 10-25-2007, 10:59 PM
 
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Which wives are you refering to?
Those who are not "allowed" to do certain things, dress a certain way, talk to certain people, freely come and go, et cetera. I have seen women who call this type of lifestyle Christian wifely submission.
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#67 of 228 Old 10-25-2007, 11:06 PM
 
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Hey, great thread! I have a question, asked with sincerity. In most of the submissive wife threads I have read, those who practice the lifestyle will say that the husband is the head in the home ONLY, and that out in society women are equally capable in holding leadership positions. This is what I don't get.

The role of the husband in the family is often compared to a CEO or a general. Much is made of the fact that the CEO and general is not inherently more valuable than their employees or soldiers, and that their roles are equally vital. But the thing that is glossed over is that CEOs and generals hold those positions because they are more fit for leadership. They are generally older and more experienced than those they are leading. They have usually worked their way up through the ranks for a long time before coming to that position of responsibility.

Well, in a marriage that is obviously not the case. So the husband is assumed to be more fit for leadership simply because that is his God-given orientation or role. But if you believe that, that men are more fit for leadership in the home because they have been endowed with that by God, then why would that "fit-ness" suddenly disappear when he steps outside the home? Wouldn't men also be more fit for leadership in society at large?
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#68 of 228 Old 10-25-2007, 11:18 PM
 
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Those who are not "allowed" to do certain things, dress a certain way, talk to certain people, freely come and go, et cetera. I have seen women who call this type of lifestyle Christian wifely submission.
Just checking. :

To my husband I am wife, to my kids I am mother, but for myself I am just me.
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#69 of 228 Old 10-25-2007, 11:23 PM
 
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Just checking. :
Ha! No flames from me. I understand that deeply held spiritual beliefs cause some people to do things I don't do (and vice-versa). Plus I'm too tired and busy to get my drawers in a knot about someone else's marriage, really.
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#70 of 228 Old 10-25-2007, 11:30 PM
 
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Hey, great thread! I have a question, asked with sincerity. In most of the submissive wife threads I have read, those who practice the lifestyle will say that the husband is the head in the home ONLY, and that out in society women are equally capable in holding leadership positions. This is what I don't get.

The role of the husband in the family is often compared to a CEO or a general. Much is made of the fact that the CEO and general is not inherently more valuable than their employees or soldiers, and that their roles are equally vital. But the thing that is glossed over is that CEOs and generals hold those positions because they are more fit for leadership. They are generally older and more experienced than those they are leading. They have usually worked their way up through the ranks for a long time before coming to that position of responsibility.

Well, in a marriage that is obviously not the case. So the husband is assumed to be more fit for leadership simply because that is his God-given orientation or role. But if you believe that, that men are more fit for leadership in the home because they have been endowed with that by God, then why would that "fit-ness" suddenly disappear when he steps outside the home? Wouldn't men also be more fit for leadership in society at large?
Well, it's because a truly submissive wife is constantly home- barefoot and pregnant. No worries about leading companies or what have you then.





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#71 of 228 Old 10-25-2007, 11:52 PM
 
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What is your husband wants you to have a leadership type job outside of the house?

I can't get over the whole playing to your strengths and gifts. What if a woman has leadership gifts and talents?

I can never get a submissive wife to answer that.

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#72 of 228 Old 10-25-2007, 11:54 PM
 
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Hey, great thread! I have a question, asked with sincerity. In most of the submissive wife threads I have read, those who practice the lifestyle will say that the husband is the head in the home ONLY, and that out in society women are equally capable in holding leadership positions. This is what I don't get.

The role of the husband in the family is often compared to a CEO or a general. Much is made of the fact that the CEO and general is not inherently more valuable than their employees or soldiers, and that their roles are equally vital. But the thing that is glossed over is that CEOs and generals hold those positions because they are more fit for leadership. They are generally older and more experienced than those they are leading. They have usually worked their way up through the ranks for a long time before coming to that position of responsibility.

Well, in a marriage that is obviously not the case. So the husband is assumed to be more fit for leadership simply because that is his God-given orientation or role. But if you believe that, that men are more fit for leadership in the home because they have been endowed with that by God, then why would that "fit-ness" suddenly disappear when he steps outside the home? Wouldn't men also be more fit for leadership in society at large?
My husband is fit for leadership (in our family) because when we entered into the covenant of marriage, God is there to fill in the gaps for each of us.

Not just because he is a man.
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#73 of 228 Old 10-25-2007, 11:58 PM
 
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What is your husband wants you to have a leadership type job outside of the house?

I can't get over the whole playing to your strengths and gifts. What if a woman has leadership gifts and talents?

I can never get a submissive wife to answer that.

I'm not sure I understand your question. I have tons of leadership gifts and talents. My husband DOES want me to have a job outside the house. I'm not crazy about it.

Ask away....
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#74 of 228 Old 10-26-2007, 12:31 AM
 
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What is your husband wants you to have a leadership type job outside of the house?

I can't get over the whole playing to your strengths and gifts. What if a woman has leadership gifts and talents?

I can never get a submissive wife to answer that.
There are plenty of God pleasing ways to use leadership skills, for both men and women. I just think the appropriate times are different for both genders.

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#75 of 228 Old 10-26-2007, 12:53 AM
 
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Boy, this is an interesting thread! I love how the tone has been really positive, and one of curiosity rather than judgement.

Oh, and Kidzaplenty, your "neck" comment cracked me up, as did frog's BDSM questions- which I found fair, but hilarious all the same. Even tho' DH and I are not BDSM, nor do we have a "submissive" marriage, we have a safe word. It's "snakes". Basically it means, "Time out because one/both of us is acting crazy".

I can see both sides of this with a single caveat: I don't think it's fair to apply, or to want to apply this system to all marriages, or to all Christian marriages.

As for me... no. I could not nor do I want to be a relationship of any kind where I am submissive all the time. (Yes, boy howdy, this has created problems for me in my work life. I am not going to lie.) I am a take-charge person by nature. According to my mom, I've been this way since I was in the womb.

I fell in love bigtime when I was 14, and we were together for four years. He was also an in charge sort of person, and we fought. Not normal teenage fights- intense political debates. Power struggles.

Now, I don't really like to fight. So my next several boyfriends were floormats. This was very unsatisfying. I wanted to find someone who really and truly my EQUAL.

So I meet my DH. He is my equal, really and truly. We can REASON with each other. When one of us is right, it's because of the merits of our arguments, not the de facto positions we hold within our house.

However, I have to say that it was a big deal for me to get to the point where I could ever let the man be in charge of anything, for any time. And I tell you, me being in charge, of everything, all the time, did not a relationship of equals make.

So the whole line about "submitting to one another in love" really did a number on me. It changed my heart in a big way, not just about my marital relationship, but about church. The idea that Victorian gender roles are somehow inhierent in Christianity was one of my major turnoffs for a couple of decades.

This all has a lot to do with my own baggage, my own issues. My mom and my grandmas all did the whole submissive thing to a certain degree, but it was not spiritually based or done with a loving or willing heart (and, IMHO, this is where the rubber meets the road). So the end result was that the women in my family are a bunch of liars. Which is mean, but truthful. Thirty plus years of "convincing him that it was his idea all along!" made them passive aggressive and dishonest. To this day, it's hard for me to tell if and when my mom is gaslighting me.

I am blunt, and I cannot abide cryptic conversations, so I knew I could never cajole my way into anything. I knew my path would be very, very different from the time I was old enough to know anything.

This said, our current situation is pretty traditional. DH works, I go to school. We both care for the kiddos. He cooks, I clean, I pay the bills, he does the taxes. In that I have learned to submit to DH some of the time, submission has been a blessing not only in our marriage, but in my own life as well. It is nice to turn the reins over to a partner once in a while.

As far as the whole domestic discipline issue is concerned... on a website that will not tolerate the discussion of physically abusing or disciplining a child, it is absolutely insane to bring up physically abusing or disciplining an adult. Just sayin'.

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#76 of 228 Old 10-26-2007, 12:58 AM
 
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There are plenty of God pleasing ways to use leadership skills, for both men and women. I just think the appropriate times are different for both genders.
I'm trying to figure out what you are saying, there to here.

Are you saying that a woman of childbearing years should not be using her leadership skills outside the home (because that is the time she should be at home raising the kiddos) and if she does she is not pleasing God?
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#77 of 228 Old 10-26-2007, 01:01 AM
 
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What is your husband wants you to have a leadership type job outside of the house?

I can't get over the whole playing to your strengths and gifts. What if a woman has leadership gifts and talents?

I can never get a submissive wife to answer that.
I'll answer it.

My husband does want me to complete my education, to go on to graduate school, and to work in my field. What he doesn't want is for me to spend all of my time outside of the home. We both feel that a woman is to be keep the house and make it a safe, loving place for everyone inside. If I can pull off something else after making sure that my house is in order, then I have his full support and blessing. He doesn't want me to be the type of woman who neglects her family and her duties at home to try to take over the world. He wants me to raise our children and to be a good wife first and foremost. I want that, too. Then I can pursue my second love. Chemistry.

Body, I've been more than patient. Please make a baby. Please?
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#78 of 228 Old 10-26-2007, 01:05 AM
 
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My husband is fit for leadership (in our family) because when we entered into the covenant of marriage, God is there to fill in the gaps for each of us.

Not just because he is a man.
Hm, this is the best answer I've gotten for this question to date, thanks!

So if I understand you correctly, neither man nor woman are more *fit* necessarily for either role, but God supports them to grow into those roles within the family, right?

But again, I wonder how it can stop at the doorstep of the house. If a man has been growing into the role of leader with God's help within the home, wouldn't it stand to reason that he would make a better leader out in society because he has been learning the skills? And vice versa, a woman who has been growing into submissiveness within the home would be acquiring skills/habits that make her less able to lead out in society?

I guess I just don't get the home/society dichotomy. I'm the same person inside or outside the home, I couldn't imagine doing a switch every time I cross the threshhold.
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#79 of 228 Old 10-26-2007, 02:02 AM
 
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What is your husband wants you to have a leadership type job outside of the house?

I can't get over the whole playing to your strengths and gifts. What if a woman has leadership gifts and talents?

I can never get a submissive wife to answer that.
There are plenty of women who have leadership gifts and talents. I think you're conflating wifely submission with traditional gender roles (all women should be homemakers and are unfit for leadership positions). They really aren't the same thing. You can be the CEO of your business and still be a submissive wife. You can be a sahp and still be the head of household.
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#80 of 228 Old 10-26-2007, 02:18 AM
 
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Brigianna, I think this depends on which worldview one holds.

Some SW say that they don't think the model is for everyone, but it works for them. In this case I would agree with your statement. Because there is no gender-based natural inclination to either role, either gender can be equally suitable for leadership. It just so happens that in that person particular relationship they are happiest with the man in the leadership role (whether he is the breadwinner or the SAHD).

But other SW say that they think the model is gender based i.e. that the male has some kind of natural inclination/need/God-given role as the leader in the home. That the marriage will probably be happiest when the man is the leader because of the biological realities. (I seem to recall that you belong somewhat to this camp from past posts?)

In this case, my question stands: if the man is somehow naturally more suited/more supported by God to be the leader in the home, then doesn't it stand to reason that the man would be more likely to carry those skills outside the home as well? Meaning that men in general are more suited to leadership in society?
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#81 of 228 Old 10-26-2007, 02:27 AM
 
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I just read throught the LDD site.

doubleyou-tea-eff.

WTF.

Are they serious?

I am scared.
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#82 of 228 Old 10-26-2007, 02:39 AM
 
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My reason is simple, it is God's plan that I submit to my husband.

Janet ~ Wife to Bryon (Ret. USN), Mama to Korbyn(12)homebirth.jpg, Koltyn (7)homebirth.jpgribboncesarean.gif, and Kashlynn (6/23/09)vbac.gif Our long awaited little girl!! ... a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised (proverbs 31:30)

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#83 of 228 Old 10-26-2007, 02:40 AM
 
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Brigianna, I think this depends on which worldview one holds.

Some SW say that they don't think the model is for everyone, but it works for them. In this case I would agree with your statement. Because there is no gender-based natural inclination to either role, either gender can be equally suitable for leadership. It just so happens that in that person particular relationship they are happiest with the man in the leadership role (whether he is the breadwinner or the SAHD).

But other SW say that they think the model is gender based i.e. that the male has some kind of natural inclination/need/God-given role as the leader in the home. That the marriage will probably be happiest when the man is the leader because of the biological realities. (I seem to recall that you belong somewhat to this camp from past posts?)

In this case, my question stands: if the man is somehow naturally more suited/more supported by God to be the leader in the home, then doesn't it stand to reason that the man would be more likely to carry those skills outside the home as well? Meaning that men in general are more suited to leadership in society?
Household and society are quite different. Our household is based on mutual trust. Where one person has a difficulty, the other makes up for it. We don't need to be adversarial because, even where we disagree, we are aware of and acknowledge and respect each other's goodwill. For larger society to be that way... would that it were. But society is a whole different ball of wax.
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#84 of 228 Old 10-26-2007, 02:50 AM
 
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Right, that explains why you wouldn't want to submit to people in larger society, that makes sense.

But my question wasn't about submitting, it was about leadership. If it is a natural role/need for the man is to be in a leadership position, if that is how the microcosm inside the home will best flourish, then why doesn't the principle apply to the macrocosm outside the home?

Sorry, I'm just not getting it yet.
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#85 of 228 Old 10-26-2007, 03:07 AM
 
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Right, that explains why you wouldn't want to submit to people in larger society, that makes sense.

But my question wasn't about submitting, it was about leadership. If it is a natural role/need for the man is to be in a leadership position, if that is how the microcosm inside the home will best flourish, then why doesn't the principle apply to the macrocosm outside the home?

Sorry, I'm just not getting it yet.
Because home-leadership and society-leadership are completely different skill sets. There are overlapping traits, but a talent for home-leadership does not necessarily imply a talent for society-leadership, and a talent for society-leadership does not necessarily imply a talent for home-leadership. If successful social leadership corresponded to successful leadership of the home, we wouldn't hear nearly as many stories about businesspeople, politicians, and such, being on their fifth divorce, or being caught with a mistress, or being estranged from their children, or, conversely, about people who could never sustain social leadership who nevertheless have strong, successful families. They are different talents--not incompatible, but different.
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#86 of 228 Old 10-26-2007, 03:26 AM
 
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That's a great point, let me cogitate on that...
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#87 of 228 Old 10-26-2007, 03:44 AM
 
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Wow...I just found and read thru this thread. It is actually really helping me to re-form/crystalize my thoughts and beliefs.

I was raised in a Christian home, with a model of biblical wifely submission and traditional gender roles. When I married in '97 I envisioned the same for my marriage and I actively worked to have that sort of relationship with my husband. But my marriage had serious unresolvable issues almost from day 1. I kept trying to fix the problems by being more gracious, gentle, and submissive. I believed that if I just did what I interpreted God's word was instructing me to do, it would all get better/work out. But was married to someone who took all I had to give and then took more. Without love, respect and cherishing it was never going to work. So after 10 difficult years, including unfaithfulness, I left.

I still very much believe in biblical wifely submission as I interpreted it before, I have seen it work well for many other couples- bringing out the best in the husband and the wife. I know it can work...with 2 people who really respect and cherish one another. Oh, I hope to have a love like that some day!
Thanks for this thread it has helped me to think and process.
Joy

DH&Me  Christ follower, homeschooler, gardener, (insert lots of additional crunchiness here) chicken mama, & occasionally blogger. intactlact.gifMama of  boys 9,7,3.5,&11months....& SURPRISE jaw2.gif  expecting a BOY in November!  7 sweet-babes gone too soon.

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#88 of 228 Old 10-26-2007, 08:05 AM
 
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This has been a GREAT discussion! It is SO nice to be able to share where I come from on this without being attacked or ridiculed.

Leta - I appreciate your response. That makes so much sense on why it would not be an appealing idea to you. I hate the whole passive/aggressive aspect that plays into it.

Thao - Your questions are great too. Good points to think about. Thank you for asking them in such an open way. I'm getting genuine curiosity with no snarkiness from you.

Quote:
I guess I just don't get the home/society dichotomy. I'm the same person inside or outside the home, I couldn't imagine doing a switch every time I cross the threshhold.
hmmm.... I'm not sure I understand. What do you think happens when we get home?

I'm trying to think of some examples that call for me to submit.

This is kinda funny, but the only one I can think of is that DH thinks I need to be buying nicer/better clothes for me and the children. It's important to him that we look nice. He would prefer we didn't wear clothes from Walmart or Kmart. And that we have good shoes. He hates seeing me wear flip flops.

I like flip flops. And I could wear jeans a T-shirt every day. So I am making an effort wear "real" clothes.

So when we are discussing the budget and it's tight - he says to spend more on clothes than I would. Lately this has meant that a couple of trips he wanted to go on had to be missed.

{eta - I've run into some that don't like that. If I want to wear jeans & t's he should be OK with that. But he knows that I used to enjoy dressing nicely but I've got into a rut (4 kids can do that to a person) that he would like to see me get out of}

That and the ongoing work/home issue. He wants me at the shop more than I want to be. But this is much more my problem than his. God has not only given me the go-ahead to set some boundaries, He has TOLD me to do so. And I haven't been doing a good job of it and it's throwing the whole thing out of kilter.
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#89 of 228 Old 10-26-2007, 09:08 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Brigianna View Post
There are plenty of women who have leadership gifts and talents. I think you're conflating wifely submission with traditional gender roles (all women should be homemakers and are unfit for leadership positions). They really aren't the same thing. You can be the CEO of your business and still be a submissive wife. You can be a sahp and still be the head of household.
Yes sorry. This was more directed to those who practice both. Well not even practice both- those who advocate both for every couple everywhere.

What is the husband is really talented and enjoys cooking and cleaning and being a stay at home dad, and the woman is really talented at her woh job?

Do these people really think that people should ignore their god given talents for the sake of gender roles?

What is the woman 's talents are best used in a way her husband tells her not (be it woh, wah or anything really)? Because I think that is extremely disrespectful to God.

Jam 7, Peanut Butter 5, and Bread 2.

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#90 of 228 Old 10-26-2007, 09:09 AM
 
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Yeah that loving dd web site really upset me. It made me cry and made me nauseated.

Jam 7, Peanut Butter 5, and Bread 2.

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