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#1 of 52 Old 10-28-2007, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Wow. My mom, a former Catholic who raised me non-denominational Christian (I'm starting to wonder what that means), introduced me to the Left Behind series of books. I thought it was an interesting story. It's interesting to see what the tribulation could be like. However, I didn't realize until just now, while doing some research, that the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is a relatively new concept that is only held by certain groups! I don't think the Catholic Church teaches that there's a pre-tribulation rapture.

I guess I hadn't really thought about it. I know I've always believed in a rapture by Jesus, but I hadn't thought about if there's a pre-trib rapture AND a post-trib rapture. Hmmm. Where does the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture come from?

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#2 of 52 Old 10-28-2007, 01:31 PM
 
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The idea of the "Rapture" has its roots in a very early Christian heresy called millenarianism, but it did not gain popularity as a Protestant heresy until the mid-1800's due to an Irish Protestant preacher named John Nelson Darby.

He taught that there would be a secret Rapture before Christ's second coming. Lahaye and Jenkins have revived Darby's idea.

Obviously, the Catholic Church has denied this error since the earliest days of the Church (around 5th century).

The Catholic Church teaches that the Tribulation occurs with the rise of Antichrist, and after the Tribulation and Final Battle is the General Judgment, the event whereby all souls who are still living at the time of Christ's return are taken to the valley of Har Meggido, along with the souls of all who have ever lived, to be judged in the General Judgment.
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#3 of 52 Old 10-28-2007, 02:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Yeah, I'm thinking Lahaye and Jenkins aren't very pro-Catholic since in their books, the first Catholic pope after the pre-tribulation rapture becomes the head of the Antichrist's church!

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#4 of 52 Old 10-29-2007, 01:08 AM
 
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Catholics are Amillennialists.
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#5 of 52 Old 10-29-2007, 02:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Potty Diva, would you explain that term?

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#6 of 52 Old 10-29-2007, 05:30 PM
 
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sure. Um... let me find a link with a detailed explanation.

Scroll towardthe bottom of this page.
As far as the millennium goes, we tend to agree with Augustine and, derivatively, with the amillennialists.
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#7 of 52 Old 10-29-2007, 06:08 PM
 
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My favorite book on the Left Behind series and why it's such total crap, theologically speaking, is Barbara Rossing's "The Rapture Exposed."

Can't give up actin' tough, it's all that I'm made of. Can't scrape together quite enough to ride the bus to the outskirts of the fact that I need love. ~ Neko Case

 
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#8 of 52 Old 10-29-2007, 06:11 PM
 
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I LOVED reading the Left behind Series. I think I read until Book8 or 9. Just good reading and I loved the characters. Total hogwash, but still fun.
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#9 of 52 Old 10-29-2007, 08:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm interested in the characters in the series, but I think the writing could be better. To be honest, I never thought about what I believed about the Rapture until just now. I've seen those, "In case of Rapture, this car will be left unmanned" bumper stickers, but I assumed it meant when Jesus comes back.

Thanks PD-off to do some research.

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#10 of 52 Old 10-29-2007, 09:07 PM
 
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I'm interested in the characters in the series, but I think the writing could be better. To be honest, I never thought about what I believed about the Rapture until just now. I've seen those, "In case of Rapture, this car will be left unmanned" bumper stickers, but I assumed it meant when Jesus comes back.



Was always amused by the bumpersticker that says "In case of Rapture, can I have your car?"

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#11 of 52 Old 10-29-2007, 10:55 PM
 
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I spent 12 years in Catholic schools and was pretty sure that the Book of Revelation is by no means universally accepted by the Catholic Church as a prediction of future events. Which is to say that while Catholics believe Jesus will come again they do not neccesarily believe that the story will unfold anything like what is described in Revelation.
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#12 of 52 Old 10-30-2007, 08:05 AM
 
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kama- this is true
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#13 of 52 Old 10-30-2007, 11:12 AM
 
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A lot of Christian denominations reject the rapture because there's no biblical foundation. Catholics reject it completely and officially. Of course Jesus will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, we believe that, but the whole dispensationalism and millenialism and all that is totally false and unsupported and requires some pretty shocking twisting of scripture in order to justify it biblically (to be fair, some people say the same thing about us, so...)

Scripture is clear that when Christ returns we will see it and hear it and know it. (Acts 1:11, Matthew 24:21-31)

Thessolonians 5:1-10 tells us that the coming of Christ won't be something we can predict, it will be sudden and unexpected.

The bible does say that one will be taken and one will remain, but how people manage to extrapolate this elaborate "rapturing" sceanario from that is beyond me.
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#14 of 52 Old 10-30-2007, 03:27 PM
 
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Katie- a religion professor of mine said that without Daniel there is no support of the rapture and it was officially taught until the 1950s?
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#15 of 52 Old 10-30-2007, 04:10 PM
 
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Was always amused by the bumpersticker that says "In case of Rapture, can I have your car?"

I've never seen that, but thought it a few times

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#16 of 52 Old 10-30-2007, 11:01 PM
 
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Katie- a religion professor of mine said that without Daniel there is no support of the rapture and it was officially taught until the 1950s?

There are several verses in the New Testament that allude to a rapture or "taking away" of the Christian church.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 51Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Jesus gave two different descriptions for his coming for believers.

THe first is in Matthew 24:29-31. It says " 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

This describes Christ coming for his believers, whom he calls the 'elect'.

Also this passage talks about Jesus coming for the believers prior to a time of great tribulation here on the earth.

Matthew 24:37-42 - As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.


Jesus really did talk alot about the end of the world and coming for those who put their trust in Him. In the book of John he tells his followers that he will go and prepare a place for them, (believers) then come again a get them and go to a place he has prepared for them in heaven.

So to say there really isn't much in the Bible about it is untrue imo.

Its a fascinating subject imo and yes one that even believers of yester-year believed in. (maybe not established organized churches, but certainly individual believers.

I found out there are a lot of varying opinions on this after googling the word "rapture"
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#17 of 52 Old 10-30-2007, 11:16 PM
 
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Not one of the passages you quote refer to being raptured. Wow.

And IF there were such a thing as the rapture, why would it not be discovered until the 1950s?
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#18 of 52 Old 10-30-2007, 11:43 PM
 
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Not one of the passages you quote refer to being raptured. Wow
NO the word rapture is not in the Bible.

"rapture" is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17—"we will be caught up,"

A dictionary meaning for Rapture says: The transporting of a person from one place to another.

SO I think those biblical verses do speak of a "rapture"

...and yes the "taking away of believers" was believed by many before the 50's, but maybe the word rapture wasn't used then.


Using the word rapture in describing this "taking away" is new, but not the concept of Christ coming for his church. That's as old as Christianity.


....but like I said. There are varying opinons on it. Millions of Christians believe the statements and verses I quoted, millions don't and explain them away. Time will tell which is true I guess.
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#19 of 52 Old 10-31-2007, 12:29 AM
 
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And either way, belief in the rapture or not, is not part of Christianity or salvation. So really, either way, ít doesn't bother me.
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#20 of 52 Old 10-31-2007, 01:20 AM
 
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And either way, belief in the rapture or not, is not part of Christianity or salvation. So really, either way, ít doesn't bother me.
It is a part of Christianity even though the word is not, you just choose not to include it in your Christianity.

The concept of the rapture has been the hope and comfort of millions of Christian since the beginning of Christianity and still is.
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#21 of 52 Old 10-31-2007, 08:13 AM
 
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and it is false hope, once again I am not referring to the WORD rapture but the concept. The concept is not part of the bible, period.

Perhaps through your misinterpretation, indoctrination, and wishful thinking you believe that it is, but serious biblical study will show that the "rapture" as define by the Left Behind series and various evangelists does not exist.
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So to say there really isn't much in the Bible about it is untrue imo.
There's certainly plenty about the second coming of Christ and judgment day.

There's nothing about this modern notion of the rapture. Nothing that says all the good Protestants will suddenly disappear, leaving their clothes beyond, while the rest of us (we dirty Catholics included) are "left behind" making lovey eyes with the Anti-Christ.
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Just to clarify- yes, Jesus is going to be taking some of us with Him when He returns. However, the Bible makes it pretty clear that this is going to be a noisy event that ALL will be aware of, not this secretive disappearance a lot of modern Christians mean when they refer to the rapture.

And this will happen POST-Tribulation, in accordance with scripture. We will ALL be witness to the tribulation.

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Katie- a religion professor of mine said that without Daniel there is no support of the rapture and it was officially taught until the 1950s?
The whole 70 weeks thing? There's a lot of different takes (Christian and Jewish both) on the book of Daniel.
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#24 of 52 Old 10-31-2007, 11:40 AM
 
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and it is false hope, once again I am not referring to the WORD rapture but the concept. The concept is not part of the bible, period.

Perhaps through your misinterpretation, indoctrination, and wishful thinking you believe that it is, but serious biblical study will show that the "rapture" as define by the Left Behind series and various evangelists does not exist.

I know nothing of the Left Behind Series. Never read any of it and don't agree with most of the fictional stories. I do however believe there will be a "taking up" of people who put their trust in Jesus Christ. I don't care if they are Baptists, UU, Catholics, Penecostals,. I don't care if its pre-trib, mid, or post, THose things are not essential to the belief. Only God knows the season and the time.
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#25 of 52 Old 10-31-2007, 11:46 AM
 
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Just to clarify- yes, Jesus is going to be taking some of us with Him when He returns. However, the Bible makes it pretty clear that this is going to be a noisy event that ALL will be aware of, not this secretive disappearance a lot of modern Christians mean when they refer to the rapture.

And this will happen POST-Tribulation, in accordance with scripture. We will ALL be witness to the tribulation.


That is your interpretation and that of many.

DO an indept study and you'll see that many disagree with this.

As Christians we CAN disagree, but if it gets in the away and becomes a focus of division in the church I feel thats wrong.

NOne of us really know what will happen in the future, its all in Gods hands and various passages in the Bible concerning this can be interpreted differently.......thats just the way it is. There is no complete right or wrong on this, just different interpretations. One day we'll all know the truth.
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#26 of 52 Old 10-31-2007, 03:18 PM
 
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There are several verses in the New Testament that allude to a rapture or "taking away" of the Christian church.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 51Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Jesus gave two different descriptions for his coming for believers.

THe first is in Matthew 24:29-31. It says " 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

This describes Christ coming for his believers, whom he calls the 'elect'.

Also this passage talks about Jesus coming for the believers prior to a time of great tribulation here on the earth.

Matthew 24:37-42 - As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.


Jesus really did talk alot about the end of the world and coming for those who put their trust in Him. In the book of John he tells his followers that he will go and prepare a place for them, (believers) then come again a get them and go to a place he has prepared for them in heaven.

So to say there really isn't much in the Bible about it is untrue imo.

Its a fascinating subject imo and yes one that even believers of yester-year believed in. (maybe not established organized churches, but certainly individual believers.

I found out there are a lot of varying opinions on this after googling the word "rapture"

All of the passages you cited describe the General Judgment - not the Rapture.

The General Judgment is the purpose of Christ's return. The purpose isn't to 'exempt' anybody from His judgment - none are exempt. Even the elect are judged at the General Judgment, as well as all who have already gone to their Particular Judgment.
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#27 of 52 Old 10-31-2007, 06:45 PM
 
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I think the story could be a great book-but the Left Behind series was REALLY badly written, IMO. Maybe if Stephen King tackled the issue ala The Stand.
But I really don't believe in the rapture and am not a Christian...It seems as if the books are ment as propaganda for Christianity or something...would have been better to do the story without prosetlyising (SP).
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#28 of 52 Old 10-31-2007, 08:01 PM
 
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I just finished "The Gospel According to JEsus" as part of my attempt to make peace with Jesus (I had some religious abuse in my past that has soured me on Christianity). AMAZING. It was really interesting to read the Gospels from that perspective. Enlightening to find out that maybe alot of what Christians believe that Jesus said/did and that is in our future was really just editorialization of those that did the writing. After reading it, I simply cannot believe that some would find comfort in knowing that others will be left to suffer while they are taken away to find Heaven. It seems more a sympton of western arrogance that somehow we are more deserving of a greater experience than others...

Anyway, what I read in that interpretation of the Gospels make the concept of rapture (as I understand it) to be completely contradictory to Jesus's message.

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#29 of 52 Old 10-31-2007, 11:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
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There are several verses in the New Testament that allude to a rapture or "taking away" of the Christian church....

...Also this passage talks about Jesus coming for the believers prior to a time of great tribulation here on the earth.

Matthew 24:37-42 - As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.
It seems we're all in agreement that we will be taken up when Jesus comes back. But the rapture in question (the one described in the Left Behind series) is a pre-tribulation rapture that occurs years before Christ's Second Coming. The books' timeline is this:

disappearance or Rapture of believers
Tribulation
Christ's Second Coming (when all those who decided during the Tribulation to accept Jesus as their savior are finally taken up)

Is this what you believe? (Just for clarification-I'm not going to attack your belief if you do believe it.)

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#30 of 52 Old 11-02-2007, 01:06 PM
 
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Is this what you believe? (Just for clarification-I'm not going to attack your belief if you do believe it.)
Yes, I am a dispensationalist. I believe the Scripture supports this view, but also know and understand varying views and their scriptural support also.

For me personally discussion on this is merely informational, and not essential to ones faith. Where, when, how....of Christ's return is not as essential as knowing that he WILL RETURN and believing and trusting in Him is what counts in the end.
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