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#1 of 38 Old 11-13-2007, 10:07 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I am writing a term paper on this topic for my New Testament class, and I am looking for some good information, but have really yet to find any that is unbiased either way, (of course I doubt that many people can be unbiased on this issue) so I thought maybe I could enlist some help. Based on the writings on the New Testament what do you think: are Jesus and God one and the same or was he just a great prophet?
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#2 of 38 Old 11-13-2007, 10:53 AM
 
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Considering He said over and over that He was God...I believe He was God.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/jes..._divinity.html
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#3 of 38 Old 11-13-2007, 11:27 AM
 
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I don't think that Jesus was God. I believe that he was God's son sent to the world to provide a ransom for all. Not wanting to start a debate, just a different opinion. He said "The father is greater than I" and "I am assending to my God and your God, my Father and your Father." And the fact that "no one can see God and yet live" makes me understand that Jesus could not have been God because those people could not live if they had seen God himself. And that the bible says that God cannot die, yet Jesus was dead for three days.

Just my thoughts.............I am sure you will get lots of opinions and thoughts
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#4 of 38 Old 11-13-2007, 12:52 PM
 
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There are some good online books that show that Jesus is God - on this site http://www.ministrybooks.org/categories.cfm#xYPx
under the category Young People - Lesson Book 2 - The Triune God is good, and lesson 2 within that book is very good to look at.
Here are a few quotes from that book:
Quote:
John 14 clearly says that the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son (vv. 10-11). To see the Son is to see the Father. When the Son speaks, it is the Father who is working. The Two are inseparable.
Also, on that same site under the title "booklets" is a booklet titiled "Christ is God" which is good.
And there are three books listed under the sub-heading "The Triune God" which you also may find helpful. This quote is from one called "Concerning the Triune God":
Quote:
1. The Father is the source (13:3), the God whom no man has seen at any time (1:18; 5:37). All that He has is in the Son (16:15), He is expressed in the Son (14:7-11), and He does His works in the Son (14:10). He is the One hidden within, and the Son is the One manifested without; yet the One who is manifested without is the One who is hidden within—the two are just one (10:30)! Oh, how mysterious!

2. The Son is the expression (1:18). He is the God who was from the beginning and who was with God (1:1-2), equal with God (5:18, 23), one with the Father (10:30), come out from God (13:3; 7:29) to express the Father (14:8-9) and live by the Father (6:57), and finally in the flesh (1:14) as the Lamb of God (1:29) He was crucified and died, shedding His blood for redemption (19:34). After death and resurrection He became the Spirit breathed into the disciples (20:22). He became their life (10:10), and He became also the bread of life for them to eat and enjoy that they may live by Him (6:35, 57).

3. The Spirit is the entering in of the Son into us who believe in the Son to be in us the reality of the Son (14:16-20) and to communicate and impart to us all that He has received from the Son (16:13-15). The Father is in the Son (14:10-11), the Son became the Spirit for us to drink in as the water of life (7:37-39; 4:10, 14), and the Spirit comes into us and abides with us that we may enjoy the Son (14:17-18). The Spirit in us is the Son in us (14:17, 20; 17:23, 26). In this Spirit we are joined to the Triune God as one (17:21-23).

Thus, the Gospel of John shows us clearly that the Father is the source of all, the Son is the expression of the Father, and the Spirit is the coming in of the Son. In the heavens, where man cannot see, God is the Father; when He is expressed among men, He is the Son; and when He comes into men, He is the Spirit. The Father was expressed among men in the Son, and the Son became the Spirit to come into men. The Father is in the Son, and the Son became the Spirit—the three are just one God.
and also on that site - in the book titled "The Economy of God" - chapter one of it will be helpful as well.
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#5 of 38 Old 11-13-2007, 04:29 PM
 
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Jesus frequently said that he was God, in a number of different ways. If that was not the case, it doesn't make him a great prophet, it makes him either a fraud or a nut case.
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#6 of 38 Old 11-13-2007, 04:36 PM
 
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Jesus never claimed to be a prophet. I guess one should define prophet. . . .I have never understood why people called him a prohphet. You don't believe he was God or the son of God. fine. but that doesn't make him a prophet.

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#7 of 38 Old 11-24-2007, 12:29 AM
 
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Jesus frequently said that he was God, in a number of different ways. If that was not the case, it doesn't make him a great prophet, it makes him either a fraud or a nut case.
This is where the "he's just a prohpet" or "just a great teacher" line of thinking totally loses me. If He wasn't God, then why did he say (over and over and over) that He was? He never said he was just a prophet or a teacher. If he wasn't God He was a total fruitcake, so why would you think he's a great teacher? David Koresh probably said some cool things, but he was still totally loopy and I certainly wouldn't call him a great teacher.

Quote:
Jesus never claimed to be a prophet. I guess one should define prophet. . . .I have never understood why people called him a prohphet. You don't believe he was God or the son of God. fine. but that doesn't make him a prophet.
Exactly. I know Muslims believe he was a prophet. I'd like to hear more about why. Do they feel we've mistranslated the parts of the Gospel when He states He is God?
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#8 of 38 Old 11-24-2007, 12:41 AM
 
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I'm not really clear about how a bunch of random beliefs of people on the internet is going to help you write your term paper, but...

You are in an impossible position here, if that's your subject and you are supposed to come to a conclusion. Whether someone believes that Jesus is God is strictly and only a matter of faith. A Christian and I can look at any sort of "proof" you've got, and whatever the Bible says about the man, and the Christian is going to believe Jesus is God and I won't. Because that person has faith and believes that Jesus is God and I don't. It's entirely subjective.

Now, if you want to write about Jesus as he relates to the many other prophets of old and how his teaching aligns (or doesn't) with theirs, then you've got some meat to work with.
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#9 of 38 Old 11-24-2007, 12:47 AM
 
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This is where the "he's just a prohpet" or "just a great teacher" line of thinking totally loses me. If He wasn't God, then why did he say (over and over and over) that He was? He never said he was just a prophet or a teacher. If he wasn't God He was a total fruitcake, so why would you think he's a great teacher? David Koresh probably said some cool things, but he was still totally loopy and I certainly wouldn't call him a great teacher.
Well, can't someone be a bit loopy but still have some very insightful things to say?

Sure Jesus said he was God. And, personally, I think he was mistaken about that - or at least, that he wasn't any more a child of God than any regular person is. But I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Just because someone claims to be God doesn't mean everything they say is worthless. That whole bit about "blessed are the peacemakers" for example. I can get behind it.
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#10 of 38 Old 11-24-2007, 12:58 AM
 
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Imaginary character.

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/

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#11 of 38 Old 11-24-2007, 01:29 AM
 
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Well, can't someone be a bit loopy but still have some very insightful things to say?

Sure Jesus said he was God. And, personally, I think he was mistaken about that - or at least, that he wasn't any more a child of God than any regular person is. But I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Just because someone claims to be God doesn't mean everything they say is worthless. That whole bit about "blessed are the peacemakers" for example. I can get behind it.
Certainly. I still wouldn't consider someone who spent most of their time spouting what I perceived to be utter nonsense a "great teacher" just because they occasionally said things I liked. It's a matter of perspective I suppose, I'm just saying I personally don't understand it.
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#12 of 38 Old 11-24-2007, 10:02 AM
 
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If I did not believe in Jesus as God/God's Son, then I could not take anything that He said as good. When people are delusional or just idiotic, it does not matter what they say that may be good, I turn them off and don't listen. I don't want to study the teachings of a raving lunatic, no matter how "good" they may sound. And for Jesus to claim "Godness" at that particular time, in that culture, He was either honest or lunatic. (Today's culture is so different and it would not seem like a big deal, but then is a whole nother story!)

Any misspellings or grammatical errors in the above statement are intentional;
they are placed there for the amusement of those who like to point them out.
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#13 of 38 Old 11-24-2007, 10:45 AM
 
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You are in an impossible position here, if that's your subject and you are supposed to come to a conclusion. Whether someone believes that Jesus is God is strictly and only a matter of faith. A Christian and I can look at any sort of "proof" you've got, and whatever the Bible says about the man, and the Christian is going to believe Jesus is God and I won't. Because that person has faith and believes that Jesus is God and I don't. It's entirely subjective.

.
I completely agree with this. I believe Jesus is God because I have faith. Without faith, I would think he was a cool radical hippie.

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#14 of 38 Old 11-24-2007, 11:00 AM
 
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Well up until recently I'd have said he was just maybe a man with mental issues. If anyone walked the earth today saying they were the secondborn of God, we'd lock them up right? Maybe Jesus was just mentally ill....lol But I don't think I believe that anymore. That's what I told myself I believed when I thought I was too cool for religion.

Now, I think he was divine. I think he was OF god, I think he came to teach us a very important message, I think he was a very important dude all around. So I say he's of god as much as we are all of god, no more no less. I don't think he IS god, I think he has that same "god-ness" in him as all of god's children do. I don't think he's the last of the "important messengers" and I don't think that the bible is the Last Word Of God either.

I don't think Jesus was a prophet, but nor do I think he WAS god. I think there's gotta be another option. I'm just not sure waht the term is that I'd use.

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#15 of 38 Old 11-24-2007, 11:33 AM
 
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I do not think Jesus is God. He is the Son of God. If Jesus himself is God, then who did he pray to? Jesus taught the disciples to pray to "Our Father", and he said "My Father is greater than I". Too many Bible verses refer to him as the Son of God. I just don't believe that he and God are one.
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#16 of 38 Old 11-24-2007, 12:47 PM
 
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I do not think Jesus is God. He is the Son of God. If Jesus himself is God, then who did he pray to? Jesus taught the disciples to pray to "Our Father", and he said "My Father is greater than I". Too many Bible verses refer to him as the Son of God. I just don't believe that he and God are one.

These passages make perfect sense though if you believe in the Trinity.
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#17 of 38 Old 11-24-2007, 12:59 PM
 
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These passages make perfect sense though if you believe in the Trinity.
I don't believe in the Trinity. I have yet to find anyone who can explain the Trinity to me. It just doesn't make any logical sense.
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#18 of 38 Old 11-24-2007, 05:28 PM
 
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I believe that the question was settled for early Christians at the Council of Nicea. I have to admit, however, that I'm not a Christian, and don't agree with the decision of the divinity of Jesus (pbuh). There are many places in the Bible that discount that view, also. For example:

John 5:30 (New International Version)
Quote:
30By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
Acts 2:22 (New International Version)
Quote:
22"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
God apparently had lots of sons:
Luke 3:38 (New International Version)
Quote:
the son of Kenan, 38the son of Enosh,
the son of Seth, the son of Adam,
the son of God.
Exodus 4:22 (New International Version)
Quote:
22 Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son,
Romans 8:14 (New International Version)
Quote:
14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
Although I don't believe that Jesus (pbuh) was divine or the son of God, I can't say that he was "just" a prophet. He was the greatest prophet sent and will return to earth on the Day of Judgment.

Interestingly enough, it was the Bible classes at my Baptist university that completed my break with Christianity.
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#19 of 38 Old 11-25-2007, 12:53 PM
 
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I don't believe in the Trinity. I have yet to find anyone who can explain the Trinity to me. It just doesn't make any logical sense.
It's not supposed to make logical sense - it's a mystery. You either have faith and believe in it, or you don't.

I guess an analogy would be...my eye is a part of me and so is my foot. They are "me" in the sense that they are part of my body. Yet, they are separate parts, but part of a whole. Not a very good analogy, but one nonetheless.
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#20 of 38 Old 11-25-2007, 07:33 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hi all, I just wanted to say thanks for all the replies. I guess I did not really phrase my question well to begin with, what I was really looking for was whether Jesus was divine or just a man, because it could easily be read that when Jesus calls himself the "son of God" he could be referring to it in the same way that we are all children of God. It really isn't all that cut and dry. In fact, by the time I was done writing, I was more unsure of what the real answer is, than when I began. Anyway, I finished my essay using biblical text alone, but thanks again for the replies. I find this topic incredibly fascinating, even though it is a bit controversial.
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#21 of 38 Old 11-26-2007, 03:56 PM
 
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I don't believe in the Trinity. I have yet to find anyone who can explain the Trinity to me. It just doesn't make any logical sense.

St. Patrick explained the Trinity like a clover. 3 leaves coming from one body. You wouldn't say you have three separate clovers, but you also wouldn't look at the leaves and say they're all one and the same. The Holy Trinity is similar. Catholics call it a "mystery" because it's very abstract and it is difficult for the human mind to grasp. We won't fully understand it in this life, but the clover analogy makes sense to me. So, being that I can accept the Trinity, I see no contradictions when Jesus refers to Himself as God at times and as the Son at times, because He was indeed both.
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#22 of 38 Old 11-26-2007, 04:16 PM
 
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St. Patrick explained the Trinity like a clover. 3 leaves coming from one body. You wouldn't say you have three separate clovers, but you also wouldn't look at the leaves and say they're all one and the same. The Holy Trinity is similar. Catholics call it a "mystery" because it's very abstract and it is difficult for the human mind to grasp. We won't fully understand it in this life, but the clover analogy makes sense to me. So, being that I can accept the Trinity, I see no contradictions when Jesus refers to Himself as God at times and as the Son at times, because He was indeed both.
Oh! I like this analogy much better than the one I gave!! This makes much more sense.
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#23 of 38 Old 11-26-2007, 04:32 PM
 
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I wonder what 4 leaf clovers mean.

j/k
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#24 of 38 Old 11-26-2007, 05:21 PM
 
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I'll search for something I used to have... for me, I believed he was just a Prophet (although I don't think that's necessarily a "just a " ).. even when I was a Christian. OK with calling him the son of God in the same way we all are... but not God.

Let's see...I can't find it, but will go from memory.

God is omnisicient. Jesus is not.

"Mark 13:32: "No one knows the day or hour, not even the angels in Heaven nor the Son, but ONLY the Father.""

"Luke 8:45: "Jesus then asked, ‘Who touched me?"" Jesus if Omniscient, would know.

Found more here... not what I was looking for, but still...http://www.geocities.com/athens/Olym...57/jesusis.htm

Jesus never advocated himself as equal to God... or anything other than pure Monotheism. ""The Lord our God is Lord alone! Therefore, you shall adore the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength." [Deuteronomy 6:4-5] [Mark 12:29-30] "

Jesus prayed. To God. Not to himself. When he taught his disciples to pray, he taught them to pray to God. No mention of Jesus...or in Jesus's name is made. ""When you pray, say: `Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread, and forgive us the wrong we have done as we forgive those who wrong us. Subject us not to the trial but deliver us from the evil one.' " [Luke 11:1-4] [Matthew 6:9-13] "

Jesus also said, ""If you truly loved me you would rejoice to have me go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I". [John 14:28] " Again... sounds like Jesus is a Prophet, not God.

Hope that helps. You may want to pick up the book "When Jesus Became God."

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#25 of 38 Old 11-26-2007, 05:25 PM
 
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BTW, for those who find Jesus as a Prophet offensive... It's mentioned in Luke 24:19

http://bible.cc/luke/24-19.htm

Quote:
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And He said to them, "What things?" And they said to Him, "The things about Jesus the Nazarene, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word in the sight of God and all the people,

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"What happened?" he asked. They said to him, "We were discussing what happened to Jesus from Nazareth. He was a powerful prophet in what he did and said in the sight of God and all the people.

King James Bible
And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:

American Standard Version
And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, The things concerning Jesus the Nazarene, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:

Bible in Basic English
And he said to them, What things? And they said, The things to do with Jesus of Nazareth, who was a prophet, great in his acts and his words, before God and all the people:

Douay-Rheims Bible
To whom he said: What things? And they said: Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a prophet, mighty in work and word before God and all the people;

Darby Bible Translation
And he said to them, What things? And they said to him, The things concerning Jesus the Nazaraean, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people;

English Revised Version
And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, The things concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:

Tyndale New Testament
To whom he said: what things? And they said unto him: of Iesus of Nazareth which was a prophet, mighty in deed, and word, before God, and all the people.

Weymouth New Testament
"What things?" He asked. "The things about Jesus the Nazarene," they said, "who was a Prophet powerful in work and word before God and all the people;

Webster's Bible Translation
And he said to them, What things? And they said to him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God, and all the people:

World English Bible
He said to them, "What things?" They said to him, "The things concerning Jesus, the Nazarene, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people;

Young's Literal Translation
And he said to them, 'What things?' And they said to him, 'The things about Jesus of Nazareth, who became a man -- a prophet -- powerful in deed and word, before God and all the people,
Jesus refers to himself as a Prophet in Matthew 13:57.
"And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house."

He is seen as a Prophet by the people of the time in Matthew 21:11
"And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee."

Also in Matthew 21:46
"But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet."

And there are more.

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#26 of 38 Old 11-26-2007, 05:51 PM
 
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I wonder what 4 leaf clovers mean.

j/k


usami -
You have some very good points. I have always thought about Jesus as God, but those passages show a different viewpoint. This is why I am always researching and studying and am not content to just follow one religion. I think it is wrong to follow a religion blindly and never question things. I would rather trust my own intuition and be wrong, then to follow someone else's blindly and be wrong because of them (if that makes sense). I think that is what free will is all about. To quote Homer Simpson, "But Marge, what if we chose the wrong religion? Each week we just make God madder and madder." It's funny, but it has a lot of truth to it. I don't claim to have God so figured out that I know exactly what He wants or expects us to do, but I do think that we are supposed to continuously be searching and studying and not be happy with just sitting still with our spirituality.
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#27 of 38 Old 11-26-2007, 06:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by amydep View Post

To quote Homer Simpson, "But Marge, what if we chose the wrong religion? Each week we just make God madder and madder."


I love religion on the Simpsons. It's so well done. Like when Homer was baptized by Ned (well took a baptizin' for Bart) and said he felt like St. Augustine of Hippo.... or when he started his own religion and had the Feast of Maximum Occupancy. LOL Mmmmmm.... sacriligious.

I agree with you on you need to make your own decisions and follow your own heart. I don't think spirituality or faith is constant.... or meant to be. For me, I usually ask God to help me find my way on my path... but I have no idea where my path leads.

Mom to DS(8), DS(6), DD(4), and DS(1).  "Kids do as well as they can."

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#28 of 38 Old 11-26-2007, 06:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by umsami View Post


I love religion on the Simpsons. It's so well done. Like when Homer was baptized by Ned (well took a baptizin' for Bart) and said he felt like St. Augustine of Hippo.... or when he started his own religion and had the Feast of Maximum Occupancy. LOL Mmmmmm.... sacriligious.

I agree with you on you need to make your own decisions and follow your own heart. I don't think spirituality or faith is constant.... or meant to be. For me, I usually ask God to help me find my way on my path... but I have no idea where my path leads.
Me too!! They really have some great writers for that show, and even though it is all done in humor, some of it makes great sense.

I think that by following your heart you are listening to God speak to you. That is why I am having such a hard time with organized religion right now. Because if you follow what someone else is telling you to do all the time, you aren't listening to your heart (in most cases). I guess if your heart is telling you to follow a religion blindly, then you are! I prefer to think on my own.

Homer: I'm having the best day of my life, and I owe it all to not going to Church!
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#29 of 38 Old 11-26-2007, 08:44 PM
 
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What about this though:

John 14:6-10
Jesus said to him (Thomas at the Last Supper), "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you know me, then you will also know my Father. From now on you do know him and have seen him. Philip said to him, "Master, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us. Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works.

So then, when he told us to pray "Our Father", then he is telling us to pray to him as well, no?? "If you know me, then you will also know my Father"...I take this as meaning that he and the Father are one in the same.
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#30 of 38 Old 11-27-2007, 11:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by orangebird View Post
I wonder what 4 leaf clovers mean.

j/k
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