Free Will and then Obeying God? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 98 Old 12-03-2007, 04:34 PM
 
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No, the Bible is very clear that we are responsible for our actions. 'Free' will is indeed an illusion, but we do have will--ie., we are consciously and deliberately making our choices, no matter what the metaphysical cause of these choices is. If I choose to murder my mother, there is no way in which I have not made that choice--it's not like there was a 'good little me' hiding inside going 'No, God, don't make me!'. I sin according to my desires; and sure, those desires are metaphysically caused by God, but so what? I'm not operating on the metaphysical level but on the human level. Given that I don't know what God's plan is, I can hardly second-guess it--that's not my job. My job is to do what the Bible tells me to do. Anyone who reaches the gate of Heaven and says 'It wasn't my fault I sinned, God predestined it' is someone who has simply misunderstood the nature of predestination. God doesn't override our will when we sin (implying that the 'real' we wouldn't sin if we had the chance--that's a counterfactual); instead, our conscious will acts in conformity to predestination. There's no conflict.

In other words, the Bible clearly states two principles:
1. Man's actions are sovereignly determined by God.
2. Man is responsible for his actions.

Those two statements are not contradictory, if one takes into account the two levels of reality on which things occur--the human level and the metaphysical. They might be unpalatable statements, but that's not really an argument; in fact I've never really heard an argument against this except an argument from emotion, ie. 'that's not fair'. Which makes no sense really, given that justice is determined by God. Plus, as I mentioned earlier, 'responsibility' is not a term which can be applied to God, by definition.

Furthermore, nobody has yet dealt with the Biblical passages I have presented concerning predestination, nor presented any Biblical evidence for free will. If this is such an obvious Christian doctrine, there ought to be evidence of it in the Bible--a verse which says something along the lines of 'God cannot change the mind of man, because man's will is free and outside God's sovereignty'. Can anybody find me one?

Oh, and influences can be determinitive. I don't see any problem with various factors being weighed in my model, as long as one takes into account that the weighing itself is a factor based on internal and external forces outside one's control. Whew! Try saying that five times fast.

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#62 of 98 Old 12-03-2007, 04:39 PM
 
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So how do I have free will to choose in the present if God already knows what I chose in the future? :
Look at yourself. You already know what you yourself chose in the past, right? And your past is locked in from your point of view, despite the fact that at the time you thought you were acting with free will.
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#63 of 98 Old 12-03-2007, 04:43 PM
 
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Look at yourself. You already know what you yourself chose in the past, right? And your past is locked in from your point of view, despite the fact that at the time you thought you were acting with free will.
ok thanks, so there is no free will.
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#64 of 98 Old 12-03-2007, 05:16 PM
 
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ok thanks, so there is no free will.
No, from the point of view of an entity that exists in the past and the future, nothing is free. But we may be free in the present.

Destiny is something that exists in retrospect. I don't think that God should be looked at as some sort of big puppet master that is pulling our strings every moment.

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Those two statements are not contradictory, if one takes into account the two levels of reality on which things occur--the human level and the metaphysical. They might be unpalatable statements, but that's not really an argument; in fact I've never really heard an argument against this except an argument from emotion, ie. 'that's not fair'. Which makes no sense really, given that justice is determined by God. Plus, as I mentioned earlier, 'responsibility' is not a term which can be applied to God, by definition.
But the point is that "the Word was made Flesh, and dwelt amongst us." So this supposed two levels was mediated. Also, your Calvinistic theology requires an operative grace for one to even do good. So there is a connection between this metaphysical grace and human activity.

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In other words, the Bible clearly states two principles:
1. Man's actions are sovereignly determined by God.
2. Man is responsible for his actions.
There aren't two planes of reality. What this really is is that Man will be held responsible for his predestined actions, not that Man has this responsibility through an ability to choose. THAT's what seems to be so unfair.

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Furthermore, nobody has yet dealt with the Biblical passages I have presented concerning predestination, nor presented any Biblical evidence for free will. If this is such an obvious Christian doctrine, there ought to be evidence of it in the Bible--a verse which says something along the lines of 'God cannot change the mind of man, because man's will is free and outside God's sovereignty'. Can anybody find me one?
But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve (Joshua 25:15)
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#65 of 98 Old 12-03-2007, 05:30 PM
 
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No, from the point of view of an entity that exists in the past and the future, nothing is free. But we may be free in the present.

Destiny is something that exists in retrospect. I don't think that God should be looked at as some sort of big puppet master that is pulling our strings every moment.
I think that is a religious or spiritual distinction though, some people do believe that everything that happens is controlled and planned by God. Or that nothing happens that is not Gods will.
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#66 of 98 Old 12-03-2007, 05:32 PM
 
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Can someone help me understand why we would be judged for something we had no free will to chose? I really really don't get it. It does me no good to read bible passages, I need someone to explain it to me in modern english.
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#67 of 98 Old 12-03-2007, 05:53 PM
 
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But the point is that "the Word was made Flesh, and dwelt amongst us." So this supposed two levels was mediated. Also, your Calvinistic theology requires an operative grace for one to even do good. So there is a connection between this metaphysical grace and human activity.
I'm not denying there's a connection... although I'm not sure how the Incarnation is relevant in this instance. Explain?

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There aren't two planes of reality. What this really is is that Man will be held responsible for his predestined actions, not that Man has this responsibility through an ability to choose. THAT's what seems to be so unfair.
Unfair according to what standard? Under God's law, as He is the one who defines justice and injustice, it's perfectly just. Under a subjective standard, the argument is simply 'I don't like it', which is not really an argument at all. You don't have to like it...
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But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve (Joshua 25:15)
This verse gives no comment about free will whatsoever. There are plenty of verses in the Bible which say 'Choose'; that's a red herring. To prove that the choices are made 'freely' (ie. outside of God's sovereignty, and/or uninfluenced by external or internal factors) is what the free will advocate has to do; and this verse doesn't remotely do that.

Orangebird: You're from NZ? Kewl. Me too. Can you explain why you think freedom, in the senses described above, is necessary for responsibility? If a choice was truly 'free' in the sense of being undetermined by any kind of logical or internal/external factor, it would be completely random; in which case responsibility would be impossible, because how can a person be held responsible for a completely chaotic decision?

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#68 of 98 Old 12-03-2007, 06:01 PM
 
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I think that is a religious or spiritual distinction though, some people do believe that everything that happens is controlled and planned by God. Or that nothing happens that is not Gods will.
I myself don't find the question as such to be particularly interesting. What is interesting are the different implications of the different answers.

If there is free will, then it could follow that one does not really need God (or Jesus) to do good, lead a good life, etc.

If there is no free will, then it may be that one is not responsible for one's action (except by the arbitrary fiat mentioned by Smokering that one is nonetheless responsible for one's actions).

If one is predestined, then how do one’s actions matter? Even if ones "good actions" are an indicator that one might just perhaps be saved, how does one account for "slipping" if one possesses a grace which by definition is utterly irresistible?

If people are predestined, then why proselytize aggressively? If one is supposed to proselytize but doesn't, how can one be responsible for someone else suffering for not hearing about God?

Can we even conceive of personal responsibility without a belief in personal choice?

If one is predestined and one of the signs of this are a belief in Christ AND if one’s acts are not truly good unless one is predestined, then is there not a temptation for these people to discount the good works of others who don’t fit this idea?

Or if one is condemned to do evil by nature of one’s birth and if one will continue to do evil unless one becomes justified in Christ, could this not lead to a situation where good is identified with (certain) religions only?


There are lots more of these. People will cut loose from these questions in the kind of discussion we are having. But it is these sorts of implications that people really aim at each other and as far as I can see no one is immune from them.
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#69 of 98 Old 12-03-2007, 06:07 PM
 
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Unfair according to what standard? Under God's law, as He is the one who defines justice and injustice, it's perfectly just. Under a subjective standard, the argument is simply 'I don't like it', which is not really an argument at all. You don't have to like it...
That's why you will find if you look closely that I used the word "seems".

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This verse gives no comment about free will whatsoever. There are plenty of verses in the Bible which say 'Choose'; that's a red herring. To prove that the choices are made 'freely' (ie. outside of God's sovereignty, and/or uninfluenced by external or internal factors) is what the free will advocate has to do; and this verse doesn't remotely do that.
Unless you can show me that the Bible says that THESE kinds of passages are "red herrings", then I have no particular need to accept that, do I? You are merely saying that your quotes prove your position and mind don't prove mine.

You are also ignoring the fact that God in His sovereignty can do what He wants, by definition. His sovereignity does not in fact require Him to be operative in every instance in every act, does it?
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#70 of 98 Old 12-03-2007, 06:43 PM
 
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That's why you will find if you look closely that I used the word "seems".
Fair enough.
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Unless you can show me that the Bible says that THESE kinds of passages are "red herrings", then I have no particular need to accept that, do I? You are merely saying that your quotes prove your position and mind don't prove mine.
I believe I have explained this in several previous posts; but very well. Can you syllogise for me how the verse you quoted proves free will?
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You are also ignoring the fact that God in His sovereignty can do what He wants, by definition. His sovereignity does not in fact require Him to be operative in every instance in every act, does it?
I don't believe God can do 'whatever He wants'; that's not the definition of sovereignty. He can't, for example, commit a logical fallacy. He can't create a square circle, because that is nonsensical. Sovereignty does indeed require Him to be active in everything that occurs in the universe; that's sort of the point. If God suspends control over some part of His creation, then who's in control? A contingent being? That's logically impossible. Hebrews 1:3 declares that God 'upholds' the universe (some translations say 'sustains'), meaning that He is in constant control of the universe--He didn't just wind it up and set it running, He is needed constantly. Every action that occurs, occurs through Him. (This is known as the doctrine of occasionalism).

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#71 of 98 Old 12-03-2007, 07:30 PM
 
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I have cleaned up this thread a bit and am returning it with the firm reminder to discuss this issue with the utmost respect to others.

If you see a problematic post, please report it.

Sorry for any loss of clarity that results from the removal of posts.

Can't give up actin' tough, it's all that I'm made of. Can't scrape together quite enough to ride the bus to the outskirts of the fact that I need love. ~ Neko Case

 
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#72 of 98 Old 12-03-2007, 08:20 PM
 
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I believe I have explained this in several previous posts; but very well. Can you syllogise for me how the verse you quoted proves free will?
Why do I need to do that? Are you suggesting that the speaker and people like him were not inspired by God?

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I don't believe God can do 'whatever He wants'; that's not the definition of sovereignty. He can't, for example, commit a logical fallacy. He can't create a square circle, because that is nonsensical. Sovereignty does indeed require Him to be active in everything that occurs in the universe; that's sort of the point. If God suspends control over some part of His creation, then who's in control? A contingent being? That's logically impossible. Hebrews 1:3 declares that God 'upholds' the universe (some translations say 'sustains'), meaning that He is in constant control of the universe--He didn't just wind it up and set it running, He is needed constantly. Every action that occurs, occurs through Him. (This is known as the doctrine of occasionalism).
No, God is omnipotent and that is certainly discussed in the Bible. You are implying that logic is prior to God or that God is bound by logic. If God is bound by logic, then God is not omnipotent. If God willed Himself to be bound by logic, then God can be bound by other things.

God is also said in the Bible to be slow to anger. But if God actively intervenes in life why would God ever be angry? Or slow to be angry?

Again, as I said before, I am not particularly interested in the question of free will as such. I am far more interested in the implications of these various speculations. What does it mean for us if A or B is true?
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#73 of 98 Old 12-03-2007, 08:47 PM
 
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Why do I need to do that? Are you suggesting that the speaker and people like him were not inspired by God?
Well, I asked for Biblical proof of free will, and you presented a verse which seems to me to be irrelevant; so I'd like you to explain why you chose that verse, and how you think it proves free will. I do believe that the author of Joshua was inspired, but how is that relevant?
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No, God is omnipotent and that is certainly discussed in the Bible. You are implying that logic is prior to God or that God is bound by logic. If God is bound by logic, then God is not omnipotent. If God willed Himself to be bound by logic, then God can be bound by other things.
The attribute of omnipotence is often misunderstood. I don't believe that logic is prior to God, I believe it stems from His character--and that in that sense, God is 'bound' by it as much as He is bound by any other aspect of His character. God cannot act contrary to what He is. To say 'Omnipotence means God can commit a logical fallacy' simply cannot be true. God is unable to (for example) create a square circle, not because His omnipotence is limited, but because the concept of a square circle is logically absurd (it contradicts the law of definition). If you accept a worldview in which even God can commit crimes against logic, your entire epistemology falls down and communication becomes impossible... which means you can't argue any more, and where's the fun in that?

In other words, the Bible has to define God's omnipotence. Can you find me anywhere in the Bible which says 'God can do the logically impossible', or 'God can act outside His nature'?
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God is also said in the Bible to be slow to anger. But if God actively intervenes in life why would God ever be angry? Or slow to be angry?
Can't answer that one. I've heard an answer based on the concept of permissive vs decretive will, but I'm not sure I agree with it. All I know is that the Bible says God does actively intervene in life, and gets angry. His reasons? No idea.
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Again, as I said before, I am not particularly interested in the question of free will as such. I am far more interested in the implications of these various speculations. What does it mean for us if A or B is true?
Indeed; and thanks for engaging so fully with the Christian worldview, despite not agreeing with it. It's a rare thing, and it certainly facilitates discussion!

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#74 of 98 Old 12-03-2007, 09:10 PM
 
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Well, I asked for Biblical proof of free will, and you presented a verse which seems to me to be irrelevant; so I'd like you to explain why you chose that verse, and how you think it proves free will. I do believe that the author of Joshua was inspired, but how is that relevant?
He is asking (actually, ordering) people to choose who they will serve. In order for them to choose (and it follows, for anyone to choose) they have to have the capability to choose. You seem to want to say that people think they have the ability to choose when in fact they don't. All choices have been made for them already. But to do this, you have to posit two realms of existence which you claim are separate, except that the metaphysical realm operates the physical realm AND that we can somehow know this, since you yourself are positing it.

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The attribute of omnipotence is often misunderstood. I don't believe that logic is prior to God, I believe it stems from His character--and that in that sense, God is 'bound' by it as much as He is bound by any other aspect of His character. God cannot act contrary to what He is. To say 'Omnipotence means God can commit a logical fallacy' simply cannot be true. God is unable to (for example) create a square circle, not because His omnipotence is limited, but because the concept of a square circle is logically absurd (it contradicts the law of definition). If you accept a worldview in which even God can commit crimes against logic, your entire epistemology falls down and communication becomes impossible... which means you can't argue any more, and where's the fun in that?

In other words, the Bible has to define God's omnipotence. Can you find me anywhere in the Bible which says 'God can do the logically impossible', or 'God can act outside His nature'?
Yes, the Bible explicitly says that God is incomprehensible and here you are saying that God is rule bound based on "His Nature" which you seem to believe you understand. My epistemology doesn't fall down on this basis. It's a stronger assertion of God's omnipotence than yours, because it also contains the concept of incomprehensibility.

Or to put it another way, are you suggesting that there are no miracles? Or are you admitting to miracles, but are saying that there are some classes of law that bind God and some that don't?

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Can't answer that one. I've heard an answer based on the concept of permissive vs decretive will, but I'm not sure I agree with it. All I know is that the Bible says God does actively intervene in life, and gets angry. His reasons? No idea.
The point here wasn't so much that the Bible says that God gets angry but that God is slow to anger. This means (to me at least) that God waits. And watches.

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Indeed; and thanks for engaging so fully with the Christian worldview, despite not agreeing with it. It's a rare thing, and it certainly facilitates discussion!
Oh, but I am a Christian; just not one with your particular Christian world view.
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#75 of 98 Old 12-04-2007, 01:25 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Unagidon View Post
No, from the point of view of an entity that exists in the past and the future, nothing is free. But we may be free in the present.

Destiny is something that exists in retrospect. I don't think that God should be looked at as some sort of big puppet master that is pulling our strings every moment.
This is where predestination totally loses me. It assumes that time is linear. Humans comprehend time in that way, of course, but God transcends that. God knows what we'll choose, of course, but that doesn't negate our freedom to choose it.
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#76 of 98 Old 12-04-2007, 05:33 AM
 
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He is asking (actually, ordering) people to choose who they will serve. In order for them to choose (and it follows, for anyone to choose) they have to have the capability to choose.
Yes, this is the faculty of the will: the ability to choose.

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You seem to want to say that people think they have the ability to choose when in fact they don't.
You are conflating having a faculty of will with having a faculty of free will (free from God?)

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All choices have been made for them already.
Even if all the choices they will make have been predetermined beforehand, it remains that they must nonetheless still make them.

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But to do this, you have to posit two realms of existence which you claim are separate, except that the metaphysical realm operates the physical realm AND that we can somehow know this, since you yourself are positing it.
But there are two realms of the existence. More correctly, there are two categories of existence: the contingent (what we perceive) and the uncontingent (what God perceives).

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Yes, the Bible explicitly says that God is incomprehensible and here you are saying that God is rule bound based on "His Nature" which you seem to believe you understand. My epistemology doesn't fall down on this basis. It's a stronger assertion of God's omnipotence than yours, because it also contains the concept of incomprehensibility.
There is a difference between the incomprehensible, and the comprehensibly impossible. It is comprehensibly impossible for God to create an uncreated thing, for example. But it is incomprehensible that God is a trinity. We do not fully understand this. It is not logically contradictory (ie, impossible), but rather is beyond our ability to properly grasp. God is not exhaustively incomprehensible, since that would itself be a contradiction in terms. If he were exhaustively incomprehensible we could literally know nothing about him, including that he is exhaustively incomprehensible. Furthermore, Scripture is quite specific with regard to the aspects of God which it says we cannot understand. There are many things about God we do not know or have only a superficial understanding of; the extent of his wisdom and power, for example (Job 11:7-9). There are many "secret things" that belong to God and which we have no knowledge of whatsoever. But equally, the things revealed about him in Scripture are explicitly given to us for our understanding and moral benefit (Deut 29:29). There is a great deal that can be said about what God has revealed of himself and the kind of knowledge we have, but suffice it to say that this knowledge is genuine. God has revealed himself to us so that we can understand him, at least to some extent, and inasmuch as he has revealed himself he is entirely comprehensible. You are abusing the doctrine of the incomprehensibility of God. I recommend Vincent Cheung's article, 'The Incomprehensibility of God'.

Furthermore, to suggest that God is not "rule bound based on 'His Nature'" (which I certainly do believe I understand since it is revealed to me in Scripture expressly so that I may understand it) is to deny certain things about God that contradict the Bible. For example, it is revealed that it is impossible for God to lie (Heb 6:18). You would appear to want to say that this would make God "rule bound", and that it therefore must be false. Yet Scripture itself testifies to this, and many other rules which God states he cannot transgress. Ultimately, your view would have a God who could be evil if he so chose; who could violate logical laws if he so chose; and so yes, this would both destroy your ability to have any confidence in justified, true belief, and it would also destroy the very thing you are seeking to exalt: God himself.

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Or to put it another way, are you suggesting that there are no miracles? Or are you admitting to miracles, but are saying that there are some classes of law that bind God and some that don't?
Why are you placing physical and logical laws in the same category? Clearly, physical laws, being created by God and having no intrinsic necessity, may be contravened by him. There is no necessary reason that gravity must operate as it does at all times or all places. But there certainly is a necessary reason that the principle of noncontradiction must. You are committing a category error.

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The point here wasn't so much that the Bible says that God gets angry but that God is slow to anger. This means (to me at least) that God waits. And watches.
Even if that is so, how does it preclude his active involvement in creation? And why are you assuming that God's anger is a reactive passion when God is neither reactive nor passionate, but rather active and affectionate (these terms are specific theological ones so please don't become confused with their colloquial meaning)?
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Oh, but I am a Christian; just not one with your particular Christian world view.
Oh. Oops. Sorry, I was confusing you with somebody else.

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Originally Posted by CherryBomb
This is where predestination totally loses me. It assumes that time is linear. Humans comprehend time in that way, of course, but God transcends that. God knows what we'll choose, of course, but that doesn't negate our freedom to choose it.
First of all, freedom from what? Coercion? I agree. But freedom to choose that which God knows we will not choose? No, definitely disagree. We do not have that kind of freedom, or otherwise God would not have exhaustive definite foreknowledge.

Secondly, you are assuming that God's knowledge is reactive in the same way that ours is. But this is not so; his omniscience is an expression of his omnipotence, and is active (otherwise, where would he get knowledge from? He is the source of knowledge!).

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First of all, freedom from what? Coercion? I agree. But freedom to choose that which God knows we will not choose? No, definitely disagree. We do not have that kind of freedom, or otherwise God would not have exhaustive definite foreknowledge.

Secondly, you are assuming that God's knowledge is reactive in the same way that ours is. But this is not so; his omniscience is an expression of his omnipotence, and is active (otherwise, where would he get knowledge from? He is the source of knowledge!).
No, that's not what I mean at all. "Freedom to choose that which God knows we will not choose" doesn't make any sense unless you think time is linear. God knows what we will choose because he sees time in its entirety and we've already chosen it, are in the process of choosing it, and will choose it, simultaneously. God's knowledge isn't reactive, it's complete. God can't predestine anything without contradicting his omniscience, because to predestine us would mean God is existing in the present, and not outside it.

God knows what we'll choose because in his complete view of time we've already chosen it, not because he's forced us to choose it.
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#78 of 98 Old 12-04-2007, 04:14 PM
 
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God can't predestine anything without contradicting his omniscience, because to predestine us would mean God is existing in the present, and not outside it.
Why? If God can know things from an eternal perspective, why can't He decide things from an eternal perspective?

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God knows what we'll choose because in his complete view of time we've already chosen it, not because he's forced us to choose it.
'Forced us' is, as I have said before, the wrong term--it gives the impression that God is making us commit an action against our will, which entirely misses the point.

But you'll have to give me some Biblical support for your position. The long Romans passage I quoted earlier specifically says God predestines and foreknows for salvation and damnation. How do you respond to that? (It's Romans 8:29-30). Ephesians 1:4-5 says 'Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.' And in verse 11, 'In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will'. Then, with regards to other human actions (Herod's and Pilate's actions towards Jesus), Acts 4: 28 says '...to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place'.

How does a theology which denies predestination make sense of these verses?

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#79 of 98 Old 12-04-2007, 05:15 PM
 
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+JMJ+


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1. Providence disposing the supernatural means by which a man gets to heaven is called predestination.

2. On a person who is going to get to heaven, predestination sets no mark or character. For predestination is one phase of providence, and providence is in God and not in the things provided for.

3. As long as a free creature has not attained his goal, he may perversely turn aside and fail to attain it. Man in this life is a wayfarer; he is on the road; his journey is not finished. Man, by his own fault, may reject direction, and fail to reach his true goal. And, since man's goal is supernatural, he cannot reach it by his natural powers alone. He requires supernatural aid. Such aid is offered to him, but he may refuse it. Now, inasmuch as God's providence permits a person to reject grace and to commit grave sin (and such permission is essential if the wayfarer is to be free), and so to refuse heaven and choose hell, we have what we call reprobation.

4. God loves, chooses, and predestines all who will use his grace and reach heaven. Hence love, election, and predestination are all within the scope of providence.

5. The whole effect of predestination has its cause in God, for all grace comes from him to dispose a man for salvation (that is, getting to heaven) and to support his efforts to attain it.

6. For those predestined, predestination is certain, for providence does not fail. Yet here we must be careful to avoid confused thought. We must not be mislead by the "before and after" view which distorts our grasp of God's dealings with his free creatures. We recall that Scripture tells us that God wills all men to be saved; yet this does not negate God's will that men be free. St. John Damascene says, "God does not will evil, nor does He compel virtue." Man must cooperate with the saving will of God if he is to come to heaven. There is nothing mechanical or fatalistic about predestination, nor does it conflict with the exercise of free will.

7. Only God knows the number of those who will reach heaven.

8. Here on earth we cannot know whether we shall be among the elect in heaven. But we can know that we shall get to heaven if we choose to do so and use the grace of God to make our choice effective. St. Peter tells us (II Pet. 1:10) " Strive... by good works to make your calling and election sure."
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#80 of 98 Old 12-04-2007, 05:22 PM
 
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No, that's not what I mean at all. "Freedom to choose that which God knows we will not choose" doesn't make any sense unless you think time is linear. God knows what we will choose because he sees time in its entirety and we've already chosen it, are in the process of choosing it, and will choose it, simultaneously. God's knowledge isn't reactive, it's complete. God can't predestine anything without contradicting his omniscience, because to predestine us would mean God is existing in the present, and not outside it.

God knows what we'll choose because in his complete view of time we've already chosen it, not because he's forced us to choose it.
oh interesting........pondering
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#81 of 98 Old 12-04-2007, 07:57 PM
 
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Orangebird: You're from NZ? Kewl. Me too. Can you explain why you think freedom, in the senses described above, is necessary for responsibility? If a choice was truly 'free' in the sense of being undetermined by any kind of logical or internal/external factor, it would be completely random; in which case responsibility would be impossible, because how can a person be held responsible for a completely chaotic decision?
Oh good, the thread is back!

OK, I haven't read what you are referring to, but right off, I do believe this is a false dichotomy. either completely random or completely predetermined.

Let me figure out what you are pointing me to read.
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#82 of 98 Old 12-04-2007, 08:05 PM
 
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O/T-

orangebird, every time you post now I cringe. Not because of you, but because of your signature and the fact the Kirk Cameron makes me throw up a bit in my mouth. So tragically embarrassing to be associated with that line of thinking. Ugh.
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#83 of 98 Old 12-04-2007, 08:50 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm still reading this thread... I don't follow the bible, nor do I see God this way so I'm simply observing where this is all going at this point.

To me, it's okay to agree to disagree.
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#84 of 98 Old 12-04-2007, 09:16 PM
 
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This is where predestination totally loses me. It assumes that time is linear. Humans comprehend time in that way, of course, but God transcends that. God knows what we'll choose, of course, but that doesn't negate our freedom to choose it.
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Originally Posted by CherryBomb View Post
No, that's not what I mean at all. "Freedom to choose that which God knows we will not choose" doesn't make any sense unless you think time is linear. God knows what we will choose because he sees time in its entirety and we've already chosen it, are in the process of choosing it, and will choose it, simultaneously. God's knowledge isn't reactive, it's complete. God can't predestine anything without contradicting his omniscience, because to predestine us would mean God is existing in the present, and not outside it.

God knows what we'll choose because in his complete view of time we've already chosen it, not because he's forced us to choose it.
You are making so much sense to me right now CherryBomb! There are some bleep-bleep's on ice skates
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#85 of 98 Old 12-04-2007, 09:17 PM
 
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O/T-

orangebird, every time you post now I cringe. Not because of you, but because of your signature and the fact the Kirk Cameron makes me throw up a bit in my mouth. So tragically embarrassing to be associated with that line of thinking. Ugh.
Pathetic, innit.

Soon, I will replace it soon. I've just been getting such a kick outta him
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#86 of 98 Old 12-04-2007, 09:33 PM
 
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Pathetic, innit.

Soon, I will replace it soon. I've just been getting such a kick outta him
Ha! Not hard to see why. I'd love to see him try to duplicate that same logic with a pineapple.:
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Um... it is meant in humour, surely, the banana thing? I thought it was funny, anyway.

If decomposition persists please see your necromancer.

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#88 of 98 Old 12-04-2007, 10:13 PM
 
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Ha! Not hard to see why. I'd love to see him try to duplicate that same logic with a pineapple.:
Oh, there IS a follow up with a pineapple You've seen these before, don't play coy!:
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#89 of 98 Old 12-04-2007, 10:18 PM
 
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Um... it is meant in humour, surely, the banana thing? I thought it was funny, anyway.
Sadly, it isn't meant to be humour, they are totally serious.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...10612081345878

http://www.wayofthemaster.com/

OK, lets get back to free will now.
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#90 of 98 Old 12-04-2007, 10:24 PM
 
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Oh, there IS a follow up with a pineapple You've seen these before, don't play coy!:
No way! :

Part of me is eagerly awaiting and part of me is a little nervous.

Okay, now back to our regularly scheduled program. (Sorry for the wee detour.)
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