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#1 of 67 Old 11-28-2007, 12:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Can anyone please post the scripture that dicusses this stain on us?

I am kinda confused about it.

Example: Are babies born innocent or with sin?

I believe innocent, but would that then not be opposite of having original sin?

Or can you be innocent AND have original sin?

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#2 of 67 Old 11-28-2007, 01:14 PM
 
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Didn't someone explain it in the other thread, let's see if I can remember. They said it is like inheriting debt. You are still responsible to pay it, but it doesn't mean you actually did anything wrong or incurred it. Something like that.

Personally, I don't get it either and I don't believe in original sin.
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#3 of 67 Old 11-28-2007, 01:16 PM
 
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Babies are innocent of committing sins but still carry the stain of Original Sin.

We inherit Original Sin from our first parents, Adam and Eve. You can think of it like inheriting a genetic disorder. It doesn't make you a bad person or guilty of anything, it's simply a condition of being born to who you were born to, and predisposes you to something negative. Or, think of it like monetary debts being passed on after a family member's death. When my mom dies, I get the responsibility of paying off her debts. That doesn't mean I've done anything wrong, but I still have to pay for it.

Here's some links, not sure if they're exactly what you're looking for-
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm#III
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/visible4.html
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0502fea5.asp
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#4 of 67 Old 11-28-2007, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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But if Jesus DIED for our sins and washed us white as snow.......how would we still be stained?

(PS I am still learning about the Bible and really bad at finding scriptures that I have read. I will try to quote scripture but it will take me a while. )

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#5 of 67 Old 11-28-2007, 01:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AngelBee View Post
But if Jesus DIED for our sins and washed us white as snow.......how would we still be stained?

(PS I am still learning about the Bible and really bad at finding scriptures that I have read. I will try to quote scripture but it will take me a while. )
That is a very good question. If I understand correctly (and there is definitely a good chance that I don't ), the theory is that Jesus died for our sins, but we each as individuals have to accept his sacrifice. The acceptance is what makes it "take effect" for each person so to speak. Babies and young children can't do this so their parents do it for them by baptizing. Then when they are old enough there is confirmation when children acknowledge the sacrifice for themselves. For some Christian religions that don't believe in infant baptism, there is a similar concept of being saved or baptized as an adult or older child to acknowledge the sacrifice. There are also some Christian religions that don't follow either theology and do not believe we are still stained - I think they are more in line with your "washed white as snow" analogy.

Note that I personally don't believe in the entire concept of original sin or anything that follows from it (that Jesus "died for our sins"). I also don't believe in hell. So this is all very theoretical for me.

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#6 of 67 Old 11-28-2007, 01:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AngelBee View Post
But if Jesus DIED for our sins and washed us white as snow.......how would we still be stained?

(PS I am still learning about the Bible and really bad at finding scriptures that I have read. I will try to quote scripture but it will take me a while. )
maybe one has to live a good life and repent to get rid of the stain i need explained to me, too

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#7 of 67 Old 11-28-2007, 01:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AngelBee View Post
But if Jesus DIED for our sins and washed us white as snow.......how would we still be stained?

(PS I am still learning about the Bible and really bad at finding scriptures that I have read. I will try to quote scripture but it will take me a while. )
Did you read this article that CherryBomb linked? I think it addresses you question quite well.


http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0502fea5.asp

You must bear in mind that Catholics do not rely on scripture alone, but also tradition. This website has lots of good, usually short and to the point, articles explaining Catholic perspectives.

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#8 of 67 Old 11-28-2007, 02:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by ledzepplon View Post

You must bear in mind that Catholics do not rely on scripture alone, but also tradition. .
This is what I think is causing most of my confusion.

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#9 of 67 Old 11-28-2007, 02:16 PM
 
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I look at it this way. When Adam and Eve were living in the garden of Eden life was a certain way, as a result of what happened life is now different and can't be changed back to what it was then. That is my analogy of original sin.
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#10 of 67 Old 11-28-2007, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Ok...read article (will need to reread) but I am more confused now.

Infant baptism washes away original sin, right?

Then why would we STILL be prone to sickness, sinful choices, accidents, etc if those things were allowed as a result of original sin?

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#11 of 67 Old 11-28-2007, 02:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I look at it this way. When Adam and Eve were living in the garden of Eden life was a certain way, as a result of what happened life is now different and can't be changed back to what it was then. That is my analogy of original sin.
This makes sense.

I guess I wonder why infant baptism then. Does baptism somehow change this?

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#12 of 67 Old 11-28-2007, 04:26 PM
 
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Infant baptism washes away original sin, right?

Then why would we STILL be prone to sickness, sinful choices, accidents, etc if those things were allowed as a result of original sin?
We live in a FALLEN world.

The ENTIRE WORLD was punished for the Original Sin of Adam, not just each one of us.

This is why the world is now imperfect, and does not function the way it did in Paradise.

Infant Baptism washes away the PUNISHMENT (i.e. Hell) due to Original Sin, not the "stain" of Original Sin. So, if your baby dies before reaching the age of reason, they will go to Heaven and not Limbo. The baby is "innocent" insofar as they have not committed any actual or personal sin.

We are ALL still stained by Original Sin, as is the world itself, and this is what gives us our propensity to do evil instead of good, or what makes it HARDER for us to do good.
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#13 of 67 Old 11-28-2007, 08:35 PM
 
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Infant Baptism washes away the PUNISHMENT (i.e. Hell) due to Original Sin, not the "stain" of Original Sin. So, if your baby dies before reaching the age of reason, they will go to Heaven and not Limbo. The baby is "innocent" insofar as they have not committed any actual or personal sin.
I don't want to divert the discussion, but let me just point out that this is part of the Catholic view of Original Sin, which differs from the Eastern Orthodox one. We do not accept Limbo, the existence of punishment for Original Sin, or even the same interpretation of Original Sin.
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#14 of 67 Old 11-28-2007, 11:24 PM
 
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I don't want to divert the discussion, but let me just point out that this is part of the Catholic view of Original Sin, which differs from the Eastern Orthodox one. We do not accept Limbo, the existence of punishment for Original Sin, or even the same interpretation of Original Sin.
Lots of Roman Catholics don't accept the Limbo theory either, but that's another thread.

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#15 of 67 Old 11-30-2007, 09:19 PM
 
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Romans 5:12 (KJV)
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

I can't help you with what Catholics believe, but this is the scripture that sprang to mind.

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#16 of 67 Old 12-03-2007, 05:58 PM
 
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"Original sin" describes our state of separation from God. It doesn't mean that we're guilty of anything, but that we live in a world where we are free to choose good or evil, and in such a world evil and suffering exists. If you're a Christian, you probably believe that through Jesus we are reconciled to God--that Jesus is the Way to Atonement (at-one-ment) with God.
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#17 of 67 Old 12-03-2007, 06:27 PM
 
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Probably subject for another thread but lately I'm having a hard time with the concept that God would need to send someone as a human sacrifice, especially his son, to save the world from sin. I mean the concept that killing someone is somehow a sacrificial act is just
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#18 of 67 Old 12-03-2007, 07:26 PM
 
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Probably subject for another thread but lately I'm having a hard time with the concept that God would need to send someone as a human sacrifice, especially his son, to save the world from sin. I mean the concept that killing someone is somehow a sacrificial act is just
I'm sounding like a broken record, but the doctrine of the Atonement is also exclusively Roman Catholic, although I think some Protestant denominations adopted it as well.
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#19 of 67 Old 12-03-2007, 09:59 PM
 
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Sorry to make you repeat mamabadger but what is the Orthodox Churches teaching regarding the purpose of Jesus' death? Sorry if this has already been covered in another thread, if it has can you point me n the right direction and I'll do a search for it.
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#20 of 67 Old 12-03-2007, 10:20 PM
 
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I do not believe in the concept of original sin or the fall of Adam and Eve. I do believe however that we are perfect beings at the core but in order to have actual experiences of really knowing ourselves we had to enter the darkness of the physical realm and forget who we really are so we could accomplish what we came here to accomplish. There is a higher plan to all this.
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#21 of 67 Old 12-04-2007, 12:44 AM
 
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Sorry to make you repeat mamabadger but what is the Orthodox Churches teaching regarding the purpose of Jesus' death?
Jesus is believed to be God incarnate. The purpose of his taking on human form was to sanctify human nature. Once God Himself has taken on human nature, that nature is necessarily changed forever. By going on to experience death and then pass through it and live again, he changed the nature of death as well. All humankind, and their experience of death, is altered by God's direct contact with us, through Jesus Christ. That was the purpose of Jesus' life and his death. Someone once described Jesus as God's hand, reaching down to fix something that was broken.

By contrast, the Western doctrine of the Atonement teaches that sin had placed us at such a distance from God that God's wrath could be appeased only by the ultimate sacrifice: the painful death of His own son. This is foreign to Orthodox theology because it places God in a position of being so angry with mankind that only a horrible human sacrifice would satisfy his fury.
I have also heard it suggested that this is the reason why Western churches display so many images of the Crucifixion, since this sacrifice is so central to their idea of salvation; while Eastern Orthodox churches emphasize the Resurrection, which is the main point of Jesus' existence and the reason for his death. The image that is always displayed at Pascha (Easter) in Orthodox churches shows Jesus during his three days in the tomb, symbolically breaking open the graves and pulling the people free, alive and well. That is what we believe was the purpose of his death.
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#22 of 67 Old 12-04-2007, 01:20 AM
 
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By contrast, the Western doctrine of the Atonement teaches that sin had placed us at such a distance from God that God's wrath could be appeased only by the ultimate sacrifice: the painful death of His own son. This is foreign to Orthodox theology because it places God in a position of being so angry with mankind that only a horrible human sacrifice would satisfy his fury.
I have also heard it suggested that this is the reason why Western churches display so many images of the Crucifixion, since this sacrifice is so central to their idea of salvation; while Eastern Orthodox churches emphasize the Resurrection, which is the main point of Jesus' existence and the reason for his death.
The doctrine of Atonement absolutely does NOT teach that.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02055a.htm

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04517a.htm
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The Catechism of the Catholic Church has a good explanation of its teachings on Original Sin:http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/...hpt1art1p7.htm
(See paragraph 7, section 396-409)

Here's a portion:

Quote:
Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it; subject to ignorance, suffering, and the dominion of death; and inclined to sin—an inclination to evil that is called "concupiscence." Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back toward God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.
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#24 of 67 Old 12-04-2007, 10:50 AM
 
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Thanks for the links you both posted. CherryBomb, I'm not sure why I didn't think of checking at Catholic Encyclopedia myself, but thanks for the reminder since I haven't used that bookmark lately.
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#25 of 67 Old 12-04-2007, 10:51 AM
 
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The Catechism of the Catholic Church has a good explanation of its teachings on Original Sin:http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/...hpt1art1p7.htm
(See paragraph 7, section 396-409)

Here's a portion:
You posted when I was reading the other links Thanks.
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#26 of 67 Old 12-04-2007, 11:40 AM
 
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Thanks for the links you both posted. CherryBomb, I'm not sure why I didn't think of checking at Catholic Encyclopedia myself, but thanks for the reminder since I haven't used that bookmark lately.
NP! I love Catholic Encyclopedia. It's a little wordy but it always clarifies things for me!
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#27 of 67 Old 12-04-2007, 02:17 PM
 
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The doctrine of Atonement absolutely does NOT teach that.
Modern Catholic documents certainly would not express it that way, but for most of Roman Catholic history, its theologians saw the sufferings of Christ as a kind of payment for God's injured honour. Anselm of Canterbury considered it repaying a "dept of honour" to God, on our behalf. Thomas Aquinas described the Crucifixion and related sufferings as Jesus accepting punishment in our place: "Christ bore a satisfactory punishment, not for His, but for our sins." (Summa Theologiae) The penal aspect of it, and God's requirement that someone be punished, was always at the forefront. Current Catholic thinking may have taken another direction, but for centuries it was a source of disagreement between Orthodox and Catholic churches.
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#28 of 67 Old 12-04-2007, 02:58 PM
 
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Modern Catholic documents certainly would not express it that way, but for most of Roman Catholic history, its theologians saw the sufferings of Christ as a kind of payment for God's injured honour. Anselm of Canterbury considered it repaying a "dept of honour" to God, on our behalf. Thomas Aquinas described the Crucifixion and related sufferings as Jesus accepting punishment in our place: "Christ bore a satisfactory punishment, not for His, but for our sins." (Summa Theologiae) The penal aspect of it, and God's requirement that someone be punished, was always at the forefront. Current Catholic thinking may have taken another direction, but for centuries it was a source of disagreement between Orthodox and Catholic churches.

Yes - medieval theology focused on Christ's Satisfaction of Adam's sin. God demanded retribution for the Fall, but a human sacrifice would not fulfill Satisfaction completely, nor would a divine sacrifice, so God sent Christ, both human *and* divine to sacrifice himself to fulfill the Satisfaction for the Fall. Hopefully that is somewhat clear. Kinda like how Mary sacrificed for the sins of Eve. Christ was the new Adam as Mary was the new Eve. Except Mary didn't need to be divine as well as human - so does that mean Eve's sin was lesser? Anybody?

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#29 of 67 Old 12-04-2007, 05:12 PM
 
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Probably subject for another thread but lately I'm having a hard time with the concept that God would need to send someone as a human sacrifice, especially his son, to save the world from sin. I mean the concept that killing someone is somehow a sacrificial act is just
I'm Protestant, but I find this idea that God HAD to have this perfect human sacrifice as the ONLY way to atone for human sin everywhere in Protestantism. I haven't read the Catholic links, but IME the Evangelical understanding of Atonement paints a picture of a god with his hands tied and not other option than to kill his only son. That just doesn't add up to me. I resonate much more with the Eastern Orthodox perspective on this one.

To the OP, again, I'm not Catholic, but I do see "the stain" of sin everywhere. However, I also see evidence of basic human goodness and our "image-bearing-ness" everywhere too. I think of original sin as being something very deep in our human makeup, but not the deepest truth. Before anything else, we are made in God's image, and the more we can work to peel back the layers of sin's stain, the closer we'll be to having that image more perfectly revealed. I believe that Christ did not come merely to die, but also to show us how to live. When we practice the Way of Christ, we create space for the Spirit of God to fill us and burn away the marks of sin.
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#30 of 67 Old 12-05-2007, 03:53 PM
 
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Kinda like how Mary sacrificed for the sins of Eve. Christ was the new Adam as Mary was the new Eve. Except Mary didn't need to be divine as well as human - so does that mean Eve's sin was lesser? Anybody?
The Orthodox church also refers to Christ as the new Adam, Mary as the new Eve, symbolically, but the metaphor can only go so far. Mary participated in God's plan for our salvation, but it is still Christ who saved us. Christ did not save only men (as in males) but all human beings. Mary did not need to do her part for the female half of the human race, any more than the Fall, or its effects, were divided up according to gender.
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