Do you think atheists can be called a "discriminated against minority"? - Page 5 - Mothering Forums
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#121 of 141 Old 12-21-2007, 03:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by magstphil View Post
i wasn't condoning the behavior or trying to excuse them just throwing out there that *maybe* (i really do have no idea) they are stating *their* fact and therefore don't perceive it as judgment? <-- yes, it's a question....
I'm sure they are, but a lot of us have some "facts" that are better left unsaid.
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#122 of 141 Old 12-21-2007, 03:11 PM
 
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i wasn't condoning the behavior or trying to excuse them just throwing out there that *maybe* (i really do have no idea) they are stating *their* fact and therefore don't perceive it as judgment? <-- yes, it's a question....
But that's the point. It isn't a provable fact, so they don't really have the right to proclaim it as fact, or harass someone else because they don't accept it as fact. They have the right to believe it, and to worship as they wish, but not to give me or anyone else grief about it.

Whether or not they perceive it as judgment isn't my concern. What is my concern is whether or not they have the right to harass me or bother me with their beliefs. It's no different than discussing abortion or politics, imo. I didn't ask them for their opinion about my soul, yk?

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#123 of 141 Old 12-21-2007, 04:25 PM
 
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That is a common misconception.

Being atheist doesn't make a person non-religious, or non-spiritual.
It just means they don't believe in a god.

No god does not equal no spirituality.
I'm not at all talking about spirituality.

I guess I should have said that there are more people in America that believe in God then the ones who don't.
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#124 of 141 Old 12-21-2007, 11:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by boingo82 View Post
I'm sure they are, but a lot of us have some "facts" that are better left unsaid.
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But that's the point. It isn't a provable fact, so they don't really have the right to proclaim it as fact, or harass someone else because they don't accept it as fact. They have the right to believe it, and to worship as they wish, but not to give me or anyone else grief about it.

Whether or not they perceive it as judgment isn't my concern. What is my concern is whether or not they have the right to harass me or bother me with their beliefs. It's no different than discussing abortion or politics, imo. I didn't ask them for their opinion about my soul, yk?
Except I don't always believe these things are better left unsaid. As long as people are using these beliefs to create legislation or prevent legislation where we are talking about actual people's civil rights and freedoms, I do think they must be said.

There is a time and a place for such things, and probably over tea with granny and her friends it might be better left unsaid. But on the public stage, and in the public square, there are things that do need to be said. People have been afraid to talk about these things for a long time, so to not be rude.

BigEyes, I agree, it is no one's place to tell you about your soul or where such a thing might go, that is rude and there is no point to it. But when we are talking about pure superstitions and using them to hurt other people, I have to disagree, these things need to be talked about. We have kept quiet about these things for much too long.

Ugh, Im rambling again. Usually I agree 100% with Boingo, but I do think these things aren't always better left unsaid. I don't think everyone should be in each others' faces arguing about whose truth is better than what truth, sounds like an epistemological nightmare but there are truths we can all agree on as humans, we can all start from a common point. Knowing that some of us are open to more supernatural ideas than others, but if we can all agree to at least conduct business that deals with laws and real people in the realm of the natural world and natural laws, wouldn't that at least help? Why can't we do this?

Does what I'm saying make any sense? I'm really grumpy because my 2 year old just pooped all over the clean sheets on my bed : so, forgive me
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#125 of 141 Old 12-21-2007, 11:32 PM
 
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BigEyes, I agree, it is no one's place to tell you about your soul or where such a thing might go, that is rude and there is no point to it. But when we are talking about pure superstitions and using them to hurt other people, I have to disagree, these things need to be talked about. We have kept quiet about these things for much too long.
But that is the problem with all religion, there is always going to be someone who thinks someone else's religion is superstition. Unless someone is performing human sacrifices, picketing funerals, or something equally horrific, I don't think anyone should feel the need to show them where they are wrong. It can't be proven to anyone's satisfaction.

Which 'we' were you referring to? To reiterate, I have been on the receiving end of a lot of garbage from both Christians and Atheists, so afaic, anyone who tries to make me see the error of my ways is likely to find themselves speaking to this: The arrogance of some people, thinking that they have been elected to teach someone else what is and is not right when it comes to spirituality just slays me.

I don't need saving, or educating, or anything else other than left alone to believe as I see fit, just like anyone else. I really don't understand why anyone gives a rat's @$$ about anyone else's beliefs if they don't infringe on their own rights. The only reason I even think about it is because I've been harassed in the past, and I honestly can't understand why these people care except for some need to feel superior to others. I'm guessing it isn't any fun to feel superior unless you let people know about it. Why else would they bother? It isn't out of genuine concern.

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#126 of 141 Old 12-21-2007, 11:43 PM
 
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But that is the problem with all religion, there is always going to be someone who thinks someone else's religion is superstition. Unless someone is performing human sacrifices, picketing funerals, or something equally horrific, I don't think anyone should feel the need to show them where they are wrong. It can't be proven to anyone's satisfaction.
Hey, if they aren't hurting anyone, I think people should be able to do and believe whatever they want in a free country.

Where it crosses the line to me is when it effects laws and peoples freedom. That is all I'm saying. And in the case of law making, I believe in "leave your superstition at the door", I don't care if it is true or not, until there is a way to gather evidence about the supernatural, it should have no bearing on laws.

Really, all I am worried about is laws.
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Which 'we' were you referring to? To reiterate, I have been on the receiving end of a lot of garbage from both Christians and Atheists, so afaic, anyone who tries to make me see the error of my ways is likely to find themselves speaking to this: The arrogance of some people, thinking that they have been elected to teach someone else what is and is not right when it comes to spirituality just slays me.
Which we? I'm not sure, I think I just meant us as Americans as we are deciding upon laws that will effect the people of this nation. I think, it's hard to remember without a quote
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I don't need saving, or educating, or anything else other than left alone to believe as I see fit, just like anyone else. I really don't understand why anyone gives a rat's @$$ about anyone else's beliefs if they don't infringe on their own rights. The only reason I even think about it is because I've been harassed in the past, and I honestly can't understand why these people care except for some need to feel superior to others. I'm guessing it isn't any fun to feel superior unless you let people know about it. Why else would they bother? It isn't out of genuine concern.
Exactly. I one hundred and ten percent agree with that last paragraph of yours there
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#127 of 141 Old 12-21-2007, 11:49 PM
 
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Hey, if they aren't hurting anyone, I think people should be able to do and believe whatever they want in a free country.

Where it crosses the line to me is when it effects laws and peoples freedom. That is all I'm saying. And in the case of law making, I believe in "leave your superstition at the door", I don't care if it is true or not, until there is a way to gather evidence about the supernatural, it should have no bearing on laws.

Really, all I am worried about is laws.

Which we? I'm not sure, I think I just meant us as Americans as we are deciding upon laws that will effect the people of this nation. I think, it's hard to remember without a quote


Exactly. I one hundred and ten percent agree with that last paragraph of yours there

I think we agree a lot then. I don't think religion should be in the courtroom, the schoolroom, or the workplace. If you're an atheist, how do they swear you in if you go to court, for example? I have never thought about that before, but that has to be irritating as all get-out.

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#128 of 141 Old 12-21-2007, 11:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by orangebird
if we can all agree to at least conduct business that deals with laws and real people in the realm of the natural world and natural laws, wouldn't that at least help?
Yes! But we're not going to be able to do that when people are slinging phrases like "superstitious" and "going to hell" around. Saying "let's set aside our beliefs and work from commonality" is much different, and much more likely to be effective, than "you are so completely wrong that your beliefs need to stay out of my laws." One is likely to get people to work with you; the other is going to make people defensive (and thus want to attack you in return, and not listen to what ytou have to say).
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#129 of 141 Old 12-21-2007, 11:55 PM
 
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Yes! But we're not going to be able to do that when people are slinging phrases like "superstitious" and "going to hell" around. Saying "let's set aside our beliefs and work from commonality" is much different, and much more likely to be effective, than "you are so completely wrong that your beliefs need to stay out of my laws." One is likely to get people to work with you; the other is going to make people defensive (and thus want to attack you in return, and not listen to what ytou have to say).
Yes! Good points.
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#130 of 141 Old 12-22-2007, 12:01 AM
 
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Yes! But we're not going to be able to do that when people are slinging phrases like "superstitious" and "going to hell" around. Saying "let's set aside our beliefs and work from commonality" is much different, and much more likely to be effective, than "you are so completely wrong that your beliefs need to stay out of my laws." One is likely to get people to work with you; the other is going to make people defensive (and thus want to attack you in return, and not listen to what ytou have to say).
I agree. I have a hard time respecting people who are shouting "respect me!" and at the same time putting down other people's beliefs. Calling someone's beliefs "superstitions" is rude.

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#131 of 141 Old 12-22-2007, 12:08 AM
 
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I won't use the term superstitious in this conversation anymore. I really never thought it was rude, I equated it with "supernatural".

A quick wiki definition of superstition:

Superstition is a belief or notion, not based on reason or knowledge, in or of the ominous significance of a particular thing, circumstance, occurrence, proceeding, or the like.
Superstition indicates something standing above, or set up above. The earliest English uses of the word in the modern era refer critically to Catholic practices such as censing, rosaries, holy water and other practices that Protestants believed went beyond - or were set up above - their own interpretation of the New Testament practices of Christianity. From there the uses of the term expanded to include non-Christian religious practices, and beliefs that seemed unfounded or primitive in the light of modern knowledge.


But in light of the fact it is taken with offense, I won't use it. No problem.
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#132 of 141 Old 12-22-2007, 12:33 AM
 
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I won't use the term superstitious in this conversation anymore. I really never thought it was rude, I equated it with "supernatural".

A quick wiki definition of superstition:

Superstition is a belief or notion, not based on reason or knowledge, in or of the ominous significance of a particular thing, circumstance, occurrence, proceeding, or the like.
Superstition indicates something standing above, or set up above. The earliest English uses of the word in the modern era refer critically to Catholic practices such as censing, rosaries, holy water and other practices that Protestants believed went beyond - or were set up above - their own interpretation of the New Testament practices of Christianity. From there the uses of the term expanded to include non-Christian religious practices, and beliefs that seemed unfounded or primitive in the light of modern knowledge.


But in light of the fact it is taken with offense, I won't use it. No problem.
Good. Because I consider throwing salt over your shoulder if you spill it, or saying bless you after a sneeze a superstition, whereas a supernatural experience I have had that you don't believe in is most certainly not a superstition, but rather an unshared experience. Huge difference.
Kinda like I don't believe in speaking in tongues or demon possessions, but it could just be something I haven't experienced so I'll refrain from calling people who believe in that superstitious.

I dunno, is it rude of me to think throwing salt and saying 'bless you' is superstitious? An acquaintance used to tell a story about her grandmother saying I'm not superstitious, I'm just very cautious.

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#133 of 141 Old 12-22-2007, 12:37 AM
 
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I knock on wood and I don't believe it does a bit of good I think there is a lot of overlap between them all. All of the cultural beliefs and so on. I also say god bless you even though I don't believe in god, or that there are spirits/demons being cast out, etc. So, well, you know
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#134 of 141 Old 12-22-2007, 12:39 AM
 
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Good. Because I consider throwing salt over your shoulder if you spill it, or saying bless you after a sneeze a superstition, whereas a supernatural experience I have had that you don't believe in is most certainly not a superstition, but rather an unshared experience. Huge difference.
Kinda like I don't believe in speaking in tongues or demon possessions, but it could just be something I haven't experienced so I'll refrain from calling people who believe in that superstitious.

I dunno, is it rude of me to think throwing salt and saying 'bless you' is superstitious? An acquaintance used to tell a story about her grandmother saying I'm not superstitious, I'm just very cautious.
That what I think of when I think of superstitious as well. It kind of implies that something is stupid but you do it anyway, kwim? I always saw bless you as a courtesy thing.

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#135 of 141 Old 12-22-2007, 01:46 AM
 
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....
Ugh, Im rambling again. Usually I agree 100% with Boingo, but I do think these things aren't always better left unsaid. I don't think everyone should be in each others' faces arguing about whose truth is better than what truth, sounds like an epistemological nightmare but there are truths we can all agree on as humans, we can all start from a common point. Knowing that some of us are open to more supernatural ideas than others, but if we can all agree to at least conduct business that deals with laws and real people in the realm of the natural world and natural laws, wouldn't that at least help? Why can't we do this?

Does what I'm saying make any sense? I'm really grumpy because my 2 year old just pooped all over the clean sheets on my bed : so, forgive me
Well there's accurate, and there's effective. I think circumcision is terribly harmful, and I think we'll get to a point where everyone agrees on that, but in the meantime I do *NOT* think it's a great idea to walk up to your friend and say, "You sexually assaulted your child when you consented to that circ."

Accurate, probably. Effective, not at all. Compassionate education gets us a lot further.
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#136 of 141 Old 12-22-2007, 01:51 AM
 
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Well there's accurate, and there's effective. I think circumcision is terribly harmful, and I think we'll get to a point where everyone agrees on that, but in the meantime I do *NOT* think it's a great idea to walk up to your friend and say, "You sexually assaulted your child when you consented to that circ."

Accurate, probably. Effective, not at all. Compassionate education gets us a lot further.
wow. i really love how you put that

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#137 of 141 Old 12-22-2007, 01:23 PM
 
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I agree with that as well.
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#138 of 141 Old 12-22-2007, 08:03 PM
 
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But that is the problem with all religion, there is always going to be someone who thinks someone else's religion is superstition. Unless someone is performing human sacrifices, picketing funerals, or something equally horrific, I don't think anyone should feel the need to show them where they are wrong. It can't be proven to anyone's satisfaction.

Which 'we' were you referring to? To reiterate, I have been on the receiving end of a lot of garbage from both Christians and Atheists, so afaic, anyone who tries to make me see the error of my ways is likely to find themselves speaking to this: The arrogance of some people, thinking that they have been elected to teach someone else what is and is not right when it comes to spirituality just slays me.

I don't need saving, or educating, or anything else other than left alone to believe as I see fit, just like anyone else. I really don't understand why anyone gives a rat's @$$ about anyone else's beliefs if they don't infringe on their own rights. The only reason I even think about it is because I've been harassed in the past, and I honestly can't understand why these people care except for some need to feel superior to others. I'm guessing it isn't any fun to feel superior unless you let people know about it. Why else would they bother? It isn't out of genuine concern.

LOVE it! I feel the same way.
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#139 of 141 Old 12-22-2007, 08:23 PM
 
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LOVE it! I feel the same way.

Is it any wonder my kids often ask me if I'm through with my rant?

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#140 of 141 Old 12-22-2007, 09:13 PM
 
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I assume they must feel the same way about other groups who do not accept Jesus in the same way as they do: Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and so forth, not just atheists. Not that it makes their attitude any better, but it would not apply only to atheists and agnostics.
I haven't found this to be true in my experience. People seem to be a lot more respectful of your beliefs if you happen to subscribe to a religion, any religion, than if you are atheist or agnostic. I live in the Bible belt where atheist is a dirty word.

My dh who is a federal employee recently went to his division's Christmas party. Not holiday party. Christmas. And not secular xmas either. It was complete with prayers, a story about baby Jesus read to the kids in attendance, and a speech about how we shouldn't take the Christ out of Christmas. Not at all inclusive. DH does not talk about his belief, or lack thereof, at work because he feels it would harm his career. It sucks.
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#141 of 141 Old 12-23-2007, 12:11 AM
 
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I split the side conversation on natural law and mythology and made it into a new thread in Politics. Please move that discussion to the new thread. Thanks!

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