Unborn Babies and Original Sin - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
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#31 of 54 Old 12-19-2007, 09:45 PM
 
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"Limbo" is not, and was never, an officially defined teaching of the Church. It was a theological hypothesis and has been stated as such. Even Pope Benedict says so. He was in favor of abandoning this flawed hypothesis over twenty years ago.

From Catholic News Service:
Closing the doors of limbo: Theologians say it was hypothesis


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A conviction that babies who died without baptism go to heaven was not something promoted only by people who want to believe that God saves everyone no matter what they do.

Pope John Paul II believed it. And so does Pope Benedict.

In the 1985 book-length interview, "The Ratzinger Report," the future Pope Benedict said, "Limbo was never a defined truth of faith. Personally -- and here I am speaking more as a theologian and not as prefect of the congregation -- I would abandon it, since it was only a theological hypothesis. ..."

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Purgatory is a defined dogma of the Church. It is the place where final sanctification takes place.
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Originally Posted by StacyL View Post
Purgatory is not eternal, and is a place of temporary expiation for unforgiven venial sins or forgiven venial sins that have not been fully satisfied in God's Justice.
Just to note - Pope John Paul II clarified Purgatory as a state (spiritual cleansing) of being, not an actual place.

Personally - I believe we live out Purgatory here on earth. JMO.


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The Church has always taught that you should baptize miscarried/stillborn babies though.
Interesting. I have heard stories of heartbroken mamas who begged to have their miscarried/stillborn babes baptized, and were refused the ritual.

Every baptized Christian is, or should be, someone with an actual (disturbing) experience, ... a close encounter, with God; someone who, as a result, becomes a disturbing presence to others. - Fr. Anthony J. Gittins, A Presence That Disturbs
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#32 of 54 Old 12-19-2007, 11:50 PM
 
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The unborn are stained with original sin- that's why we believe it's so important to attend church during pregnancy. In the Bible it talks about John the Baptist leaping in his mother's womb. Also, taking communion during pregnancy shares it, and it's benefit with the unborn.

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#33 of 54 Old 12-20-2007, 10:00 AM
 
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Oh ... and before Stacy jumps all over me with the "Official Vatican Document" on this subject, here is an excerpt:

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This theory, elaborated by theologians beginning in the Middle Ages, never entered into the dogmatic definitions of the Magisterium, even if that same Magisterium did at times mention the theory in its ordinary teaching up until the Second Vatican Council. It remains therefore a possible theological hypothesis. However, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1992), the theory of limbo is not mentioned. Rather, the Catechism teaches that infants who die without baptism are entrusted by the Church to the mercy of God, as is shown in the specific funeral rite for such children.

Every baptized Christian is, or should be, someone with an actual (disturbing) experience, ... a close encounter, with God; someone who, as a result, becomes a disturbing presence to others. - Fr. Anthony J. Gittins, A Presence That Disturbs
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#34 of 54 Old 12-20-2007, 10:22 AM
 
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Oh ... and before Stacy jumps all over me with the "Official Vatican Document" on this subject, here is an excerpt:
That's what I thought, too. I checked the Catechism, and didn't see that it was officially defined.
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#35 of 54 Old 12-20-2007, 12:22 PM
 
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+
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The traditional Catholic doctrine of Limbo is in a higher category than that of a dismissible theological hypothesis. It is part of Catholic teaching since ancient times and is enshrined in magisterial pronouncements.

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Pope Pius VI’s famous Apostolic Constitution Auctorem fidei, which condemned the Errors of the Synod of Pistoia, denounced the rejection of Limbo as “false, rash, slanderous to Catholic schools.”2

It is de fide — an unchangeable article of Faith — that souls who depart this life in the state of original sin are excluded from the Beatific vision.4
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#36 of 54 Old 12-20-2007, 12:35 PM
 
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So - the Vatican document contradicts itself.

That's hardly surprising.

Every baptized Christian is, or should be, someone with an actual (disturbing) experience, ... a close encounter, with God; someone who, as a result, becomes a disturbing presence to others. - Fr. Anthony J. Gittins, A Presence That Disturbs
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#37 of 54 Old 12-20-2007, 02:31 PM
 
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I wonder if this is a pre-Vatican II post-Vatican II issue. My mother was definitely raised to believe in Limbo and she prayed in school for their souls. Her daughter (me) was definitely taught limbo didn't exist and the view we were given of baptism was much more like the one you got ChasingPeace.

Probably. The current stance is basically in between the two. Catholics aren't required to believe in Limbo, but the Church also hasn't said officially there is no Limbo.

It's just not offered as an official possibility anymore, though it's not officially denied as a possibility.

It gets confusing.

I figure unborn babies have souls so they have Original Sin, but since they have no chance of being baptized, I assume they go to Heaven.
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#38 of 54 Old 12-20-2007, 10:25 PM
 
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I figure unborn babies have souls so they have Original Sin, but since they have no chance of being baptized, I assume they go to Heaven.
Yes, this is what I figure as well.

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#39 of 54 Old 12-21-2007, 10:43 AM
 
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I think that's where baptism through desire comes into play.
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#40 of 54 Old 12-21-2007, 10:46 AM
 
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You are absolutely right. The Sacrament is present through our desire & faith, and God's grace. The ritual is the celebration of that already-present desire and grace, and a ritual in itself will never produce a Sacrament.

Every baptized Christian is, or should be, someone with an actual (disturbing) experience, ... a close encounter, with God; someone who, as a result, becomes a disturbing presence to others. - Fr. Anthony J. Gittins, A Presence That Disturbs
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#41 of 54 Old 12-21-2007, 11:48 AM
 
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I was under the impression that baptism by desire only applied to adults?
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#42 of 54 Old 12-21-2007, 12:31 PM
 
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I was under the impression that baptism by desire only applied to adults?
I don't know. I do know that people who postulate that babies killed by abortion gain martyrdom, and therefore baptism by blood, but I've heard that the strict sense of baptism by blood means one was killed for being a Christian.

However, the Church recognizes the Holy Innocents, who didn't die because they were Christian, and didn't die FOR Jesus, per se., but are still martyrs....so maybe there is precedence for it.
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#43 of 54 Old 12-21-2007, 04:15 PM
 
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I don't know. I do know that people who postulate that babies killed by abortion gain martyrdom, and therefore baptism by blood, but I've heard that the strict sense of baptism by blood means one was killed for being a Christian.

However, the Church recognizes the Holy Innocents, who didn't die because they were Christian, and didn't die FOR Jesus, per se., but are still martyrs....so maybe there is precedence for it.
Does the Almighty split hairs *that* much?

I know you can bury miscarried and stillborn babies in sanctified ground, if that means anything.

IMO, the theory of Limbo is a cruelty that was used to scare new parents into Baptising ASAP instead of being wishy washy and waiting around. If not we should be holding Baptisms at the time of birth.

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#44 of 54 Old 12-21-2007, 04:29 PM
 
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IMO, the theory of Limbo is a cruelty that was used to scare new parents into Baptising ASAP instead of being wishy washy and waiting around. If not we should be holding Baptisms at the time of birth.
Actually, all of the pre-Vatican II catechisms define waiting more than a month for a baptism as a mortal sin on the part of the child's parents.
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#45 of 54 Old 12-21-2007, 04:43 PM
 
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We are no longer living in pre-VII days, Stacy.

Every baptized Christian is, or should be, someone with an actual (disturbing) experience, ... a close encounter, with God; someone who, as a result, becomes a disturbing presence to others. - Fr. Anthony J. Gittins, A Presence That Disturbs
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#46 of 54 Old 12-21-2007, 04:46 PM
 
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We are no longer living in pre-VII days, Stacy.


Yeah, I guess me and the other millions of Traditional Catholics didn't get the message that the rules no longer apply.

Boy, that "Springtime" sure is beautiful!
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#47 of 54 Old 12-21-2007, 04:51 PM
 
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There's a reason it's called PRE-Vatican II.

Everybody makes mistakes ... even bishops.

Every baptized Christian is, or should be, someone with an actual (disturbing) experience, ... a close encounter, with God; someone who, as a result, becomes a disturbing presence to others. - Fr. Anthony J. Gittins, A Presence That Disturbs
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#48 of 54 Old 12-21-2007, 05:59 PM
 
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Everybody makes mistakes ... even bishops.
Hoo boy - truer words were never spoken! Add Popes to the list too.
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#49 of 54 Old 12-21-2007, 06:30 PM
 
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Does the Almighty split hairs *that* much?
I wouldn't presume to know what the Almighty does or doesn't do. The last time I did that, I ended up casting binding spells during a waning moon to some personal goddess I'd created to suit my "personal truth"
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#50 of 54 Old 12-22-2007, 01:10 PM
 
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I was just wondering if this was a strictly catholic discussion?

op... I personally believe that God is merciful. I do believe that no one will come to the Father without Jesus. No one. I dont know when the age of accountability is but I reckon its a personal thing between God and the individual. I think that goes for the unborn and very young. God knows them thru and thru. I cant say whether they will be in heaven or not. Its not my heaven, lol.

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I'm almost certainly going to be the lone voice here, but I can find no Biblical evidence that unborn babies go to heaven. If God has a different method of salvation for the unborn/very young, it isn't mentioned in the Bible.
Like I said the only way for anyone to come to the Father is thru Jesus Christ. I think its just universal, biblically speaking. I think its just that simple.

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#51 of 54 Old 12-22-2007, 04:26 PM
 
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I wouldn't presume to know what the Almighty does or doesn't do. The last time I did that, I ended up casting binding spells during a waning moon to some personal goddess I'd created to suit my "personal truth"
Me too...amoung other things ><
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#52 of 54 Old 12-22-2007, 04:44 PM
 
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You are absolutely right. The Sacrament is present through our desire & faith, and God's grace. The ritual is the celebration of that already-present desire and grace, and a ritual in itself will never produce a Sacrament.

Wow... that's really well worded. Thank you!
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#53 of 54 Old 12-23-2007, 03:29 PM
 
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Actually, all of the pre-Vatican II catechisms define waiting more than a month for a baptism as a mortal sin on the part of the child's parents.
Yeah, but a month is a long time and back in the day many children were lost in the first few hours, days and weeks of life.

Also, mortal sin is on the soul of the parent who waits - as we know, people have indulged in mortal sin frequently, throughout the ages. I think the idea that the *child* would suffer is far more psychologically compelling than the idea that waiting was a sin for the parent only. (i.e. I indulge in all kinds of risky behavior that I would never expose my baby to).

The parent can always repent and be absolved of that mortal sin - once the baby is dead and in Limbo, nothing can be done.

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#54 of 54 Old 12-23-2007, 03:45 PM
 
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Yeah, but a month is a long time and back in the day many children were lost in the first few hours, days and weeks of life.

Also, mortal sin is on the soul of the parent who waits - as we know, people have indulged in mortal sin frequently, throughout the ages. I think the idea that the *child* would suffer is far more psychologically compelling than the idea that waiting was a sin for the parent only. (i.e. I indulge in all kinds of risky behavior that I would never expose my baby to).

The parent can always repent and be absolved of that mortal sin - once the baby is dead and in Limbo, nothing can be done.
It's not just PRE-Vatican II, either! I was raised Catholic (Orthodox now - four years ago today!) and I was baptized at three weeks old. Now, given this was 1969, and maybe the Vatican II stuff hadn't had much time to work its way down.

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