Did Christians persecute the Jews? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums
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#61 of 234 Old 01-15-2008, 02:54 AM
 
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the holocaust is still within our lifetime. I and many of you might not have been born during the 1930s and the 1940s...but my mother was alive during that time. And many of you have grandparents who were children between 1933 and 1945 when Hitler was in charge of world events.

So, it is in our world. Every time you see someone walking down the street and they are in their 70's and 80s'...they experienced that time period--so in my book this is not ancient history. It is still very much around us.

I personally have a family friend who is 82. She was in Auschwitz. When I visit her at the hospital and touch her I sometimes think about her life, when she was about two years older than my son her parents were gassed.

It is not ancient history.



In the podcast of the thread I started about Jewish American History, Ambassador Loeb tells a story about being at Hotchkiss Private Boys School in the 40s'. Very privilidge group. On Friday nights they would run movies. On one Friday that ran film footage of the concentration camps. Bodies everywhere..ovens, horrible scene (we have seen it) The boys there, most who did not know Loeb was Jewish, cheered when they saw the footage. They said to him, "We hated Hitler, but we don't like Jews so he at least did the job."

And those people now..they are in their 70's. And they have children, probably my age. And what was the message in their houses? And now those grandchildren are probably in 20's maybe 30's... and what do they say about those who are Jewish.


This is not ancient history.

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#62 of 234 Old 01-15-2008, 02:57 AM
 
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and and ....
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#63 of 234 Old 01-15-2008, 03:17 AM
 
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sorry. it is not pretty isn't it?

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#64 of 234 Old 01-15-2008, 04:29 AM - Thread Starter
 
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From the brilliant social scientist and documenter of American antiSemitism, Borat.
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#65 of 234 Old 01-15-2008, 04:38 AM
 
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From the brilliant social scientist and documenter of American antiSemitism, Borat.
Your commentary is almost as funny as the video.
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#66 of 234 Old 01-15-2008, 07:26 AM
 
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Maybe I'm just not getting something, but...
Yes, Christians persecuted Jews in the past. quite awfully.
But...
You can't honestly believe that the tenets of the CURRENT Catholic Church STILL espouses those medieval beliefs. The Catechism has changed, monumentally, in the past 2000 years; even 100 years ago, it was very different in respect to its treatment of society.

I just went through the Catechism, and here is the reference to Jews in it, is that Jews are the people of Jesus Christ, are God's Chosen People, and are therefore our brothers. Sorry, I just don't see that as institutional anti-semitism. Here: "When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, 'the first to hear the Word of God.' The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant." ... it goes on in the same vein, all basically saying the same thing: God loves the Jews just as much as He loves us and everyone else.
In case you were wondering, it also goes on to say that the Catholic Church recognizes that there is goodness and truth in all other religions, as well.

I'm sure there are still Catholics who ARE anti-semitic, of course. But I think that we should distinguish those INDIVIDUALS from the ACTUAL Church teachings.
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#67 of 234 Old 01-15-2008, 09:50 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Maybe I'm just not getting something, but...
Yes, Christians persecuted Jews in the past. quite awfully.
But...
You can't honestly believe that the tenets of the CURRENT Catholic Church STILL espouses those medieval beliefs. The Catechism has changed, monumentally, in the past 2000 years; even 100 years ago, it was very different in respect to its treatment of society.

I just went through the Catechism, and here is the reference to Jews in it, is that Jews are the people of Jesus Christ, are God's Chosen People, and are therefore our brothers. Sorry, I just don't see that as institutional anti-semitism. Here: "When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, 'the first to hear the Word of God.' The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant." ... it goes on in the same vein, all basically saying the same thing: God loves the Jews just as much as He loves us and everyone else.
In case you were wondering, it also goes on to say that the Catholic Church recognizes that there is goodness and truth in all other religions, as well.

I'm sure there are still Catholics who ARE anti-semitic, of course. But I think that we should distinguish those INDIVIDUALS from the ACTUAL Church teachings.


Sure. Here's the current official Catholic Church teaching on Jews, excerpted from Nostra Aetate. Of course that's what you learned. Because Vatican II, of which Nostra Aetate is a part, changed the previous 2000 years' worth of teaching. That was in the early '60s.



And as one of the kids who beat DH up that week said while he was kicking him (DH was one of the only Jews in his school), "My father says it doesn't matter what the pope said; you still killed him."
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#68 of 234 Old 01-15-2008, 10:13 AM
 
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One problem with a discussion like this one is that it will veer from a reference to mass murder in one post, to a complaint about not getting religious holidays off work in the next. In the first case, it would be vile to dismiss or belittle the situation. In the second example, it is perfectly fair and reasonable to say, "No big deal, that happens to lots of people."
And this is the point that I was trying (in a ham-handed way, perhaps - and NO offense intended by referencing a pork product!) to make. To equate "YOU people get THIS holiday and WE don't get that one!" with the atrocities of pogroms and the Holocaust diminishes the latter. Yes, when I have to make multiple calls to ensure that my kids have excused absences for a religious holiday, it's a pain in the nexk, but I tell myself to make the call and suck it up. It's NOT discrimination or persecution, IMO.

Yes, persecution, hatred, bigotry, etc. exist - today and in the past. Yes, the Jews were persecuted. So have other ethnic and religious groups. Saying that others have also been should not in any way minimize the persecution of the Jews. However, the persecution of the Jews should also not minimize the persecution of other groups. Again, IMO. Making such behavior unacceptable should be something we should ALL work towards - regardless of who is being, or has been, persecuted.
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#69 of 234 Old 01-15-2008, 10:43 AM
 
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CherryBomb,

I'm with you. I totally get that the SBC does not speak for all Christians, just as the Orthodox Union (or any other umbrella organization) might not speak for a specific individual Jewish person, or denomintation. And yes, I do see the irony in us all generalizing each other. You said that the SBC doesn't speak for you, but in your siggie you identify yourself as Catholic. I would argue that the Catholic Church has a long standing history of anti semtism that is a big part of their interactions with Jewish communnties throughout the world. Things like the Inquisition, to the aid provided to Holocaust perpertrators, there are all sorts of events in which the Church behaved quite badly towards Jews, so I guess I'm wondering how you define doctrine, because to me, a Jewish person without much in depth understanding of the Catholic Church, it seems like it is a real part of the history.
There were definitely anti-Semitic teachings in the Church. But doctrine in a strict sense are unchanging tenets of the faith inspired by God and revealed with the help of the Holy Spirit. So...no, I wouldn't say that applies. Anti-semitism is certainly (and unfortunately) a part of Church history and tradition, though. Merpk mentioned nostra aetate which was easily the best thing to come out of V2 and sought to begin to change and rectify that. So yeah, it is a real part of our history, and I don't deny it. The Holy Spirit is in the Church attempting to guide her, but that doesn't always mean she listens, unfortunately. So I'd agree our religion has perpetuated Antisemitism, but I do not believe our religion is inherently anti-Semitic or intrinsically evil.
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#70 of 234 Old 01-15-2008, 11:55 AM
 
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See, I think people keep trying to ascribe notions to this thread that no one is trying to claim. Please keep in mind that we are discussing the historical theological underpinnings of antisemitism rooted in the various streams of the Christian religion. While there has been great progress on the front in many of the churches, esp. in the last 50 years, it is hard to erase nearly 2000 years of teaching otherwise. And some streams haven't been quite so progressive...

And no one has equated difficulties taking off time for a certain holiday with pogroms. No one. But I think that even mtiger would have to agree that we have a problem in our society that when one is not part of the cultural norm, discrimination arises. When a professor tells you, regardless of whether you are Muslim, Hindu, Orthodox Jew or Russian Orthodox that you have to "suck it up and lose points" b/c you are taking off for religious observance, that's a problem. I find it all the more shocking when someone from a minority adopts the same attitude toward others.
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#71 of 234 Old 01-15-2008, 12:34 PM
 
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But I think that even mtiger would have to agree that we have a problem in our society that when one is not part of the cultural norm, discrimination arises. When a professor tells you, regardless of whether you are Muslim, Hindu, Orthodox Jew or Russian Orthodox that you have to "suck it up and lose points" b/c you are taking off for religious observance, that's a problem. I find it all the more shocking when someone from a minority adopts the same attitude toward others.
Well, here's the thing. I never said that a professor said that. Nor did the poster to whom I was replying. She stated that she knew someone who had to write a paper on the topic discussed in class that day to make it other than an unexcused absence. What I said was that *I* would simply suck it up, write the paper and be done with it. I certainly wouldn't whine that I was discriminated against or persecuted. 'Cause I just don't see it as such. Sorry.
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#72 of 234 Old 01-15-2008, 12:35 PM
 
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I find it all the more shocking when someone from a minority adopts the same attitude toward others.


yes.

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#73 of 234 Old 01-15-2008, 12:39 PM
 
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CherryBomb, I think you and I (and maybe others in the thread) are defining doctrine differently. As you stated

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doctrine in a strict sense are unchanging tenets of the faith inspired by God and revealed with the help of the Holy Spirit
and I was thinking it was more official Church statements, proclomations and the like. I think you are defining it more narrowly, me more broadly. As usual, it is important to really know what someone else is talking about before you start to argue!!

AnyMama, with all due respect, I think this is a bit ridiculous

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Whether they went so far as to call on Christians to avenge it, or to kill Jews who wouldn't convert. It's hard to imagine that those were widely held beliefs since Jews continued to live and die natural lives in areas that were mostly Christian. They bore tons of prejudice and I'm sure violence against them was rampant, but if Christians widely believed they should die, I doubt we would be having this debate right now.
again from http://http://www.religioustolerance.org/vat_hol11.htm

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Two Church teachings became the foundation stones for centuries of oppression of Jews by the Church: Supercessionism: (a.k.a. Replacement Theology): The belief that God had rejected the Jews, unilaterally cancelled his covenants with them, and now favored Christians as the new chosen people.
Translated responsibility: Holding all Jews, from the first century onwards, responsible for Jesus' execution circa 30 CE. This includes Jews who lived throughout the Roman Empire in the first century CE who never heard of Jesus, and Jews who were born as much as 19 centuries after Jesus' death.
from http://http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_pers3.htm

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1478: Spanish Jews had been heavily persecuted from the 14th century. Many had converted to Christianity. The Spanish Inquisition was set up by the Church in order to detect insincere conversions. Laws were passed that prohibited the descendants of Jews or Muslims from attending university, joining religious orders, holding public office, or entering any of a long list of professions.
1492 : Jews were given the choice of being baptized as Christians or be banished from Spain. 300,000 left Spain penniless. Many migrated to Turkey, where they found tolerance among the Muslims. Others converted to Christianity but often continued to practice Judaism in secret
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1543: In his 20's, Martin Luther, had expected Jews to convert to Christianity in large numbers. Distressed by their reluctance, he developed a hatred for Jews, as expressed in his letters to Rev. Spalatin in 1514, when he was 31 years of age. He wrote:

"I have come to the conclusion that the Jews will always curse and blaspheme God and his King Christ, as all the prophets have predicted....For they are thus given over by the wrath of God to reprobation, that they may become incorrigible, as Ecclesiastes says, for every one who is incorrigible is rendered worse rather than better by correction." 6

In 1543, he wrote "On the Jews and their lies, On Shem Hamphoras" :

"...eject them forever from this country. For, as we have heard, God's anger with them is so intense that gentle mercy will only tend to make them worse and worse, while sharp mercy will reform them but little. Therefore, in any case, away with them!...What then shall we Christians do with this damned, rejected race of Jews?

First, their synagogues or churches should be set on fire,...
Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed... They ought to be put under one roof or in a stable, like Gypsies.
Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer books and Talmuds in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught.
Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach any more...
Fifthly, passport and traveling privileges should be absolutely forbidden to the Jews...
Sixthly, they ought to be stopped from usury. All their cash and valuables of silver and gold ought to be taken from them and put aside for safe keeping...
Seventhly, let the young and strong Jews and Jewesses be given the flail, the axe, the hoe, the spade, the distaff, and spindle and let them earn their bread by the sweat of their noses as in enjoined upon Adam's children...

To sum up, dear princes and nobles who have Jews in your domains, if this advice of mine does not suit you, then find a better one so that you and we may all be free of this insufferable devilish burden - the Jews." 7
And so we're on the same page about what exactly the Inquisition was From Wikipedia http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition

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Later in the 13th century, the pope assigned the duty of carrying out inquisitions to the Dominican Order. Inquisitors acted in the name of the Pope and with his full authority
Finally,
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if Christians widely believed they should die, I doubt we would be having this debate right now
, just because they maybe didn't do as complete a job as they might have, doesn't mean it was in anyway lessened. I mean, the Nazi's managed to kill 6 million Jews, 13 million people totaly, as Chava stated up thread they pretty much destroyed the entire Jews population of Poland (was over 2 mill, before the Holocaust, now less than a few thousand). It really is just dumb luck that there is any Jewish presence throughout the world today, not because various Chrisitan and Secular groups didn't put their nose to the grindstone with their effort.
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#74 of 234 Old 01-15-2008, 12:55 PM
 
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Not in our schools. We live next door to Lakewood, NJ and EVERYone knows the Jewish holidays. ALL of them. So... sorry if I find it hard to sympathize.
And guess what? I got zeros for missing Russian History classes to go to Church on Russian Orthodox Holidays. Boo hoo for me. So you work a little freakin' harder the rest of the time.

I think I was confused by the bolded line, Mtiger, what was hard to sympathize?

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#75 of 234 Old 01-15-2008, 02:03 PM
 
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Well, here's the thing. I never said that a professor said that. Nor did the poster to whom I was replying. She stated that she knew someone who had to write a paper on the topic discussed in class that day to make it other than an unexcused absence. What I said was that *I* would simply suck it up, write the paper and be done with it. I certainly wouldn't whine that I was discriminated against or persecuted. 'Cause I just don't see it as such. Sorry.
Yeah, actually *I'm* the one who has had a prof. say it. He had to take a big backstep when I went over his head. Illustrating all the more that it's NOT an OK attitude.
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#76 of 234 Old 01-15-2008, 02:20 PM
 
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I think I was confused by the bolded line, Mtiger, what was hard to sympathize?
All of us not getting all of our holidays off from work, school, etc. When I lived in Israel, if I wanted "my" holidays off, I had to take them w/o compensation or accommodation. That was fine. When I worked for a company owned and run by Orthodox Jews (in the US), I had to take "my" holidays unpaid or as vacation days - because they weren't included in the company calendar of holidays. Big deal. So no, I don't sympathize when others have to do the same. That's just how life is sometimes. Unfair.
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#77 of 234 Old 01-15-2008, 02:21 PM
 
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It's hard to imagine that those were widely held beliefs since Jews continued to live and die natural lives in areas that were mostly Christian.
This is not really accurate, Jews continued to die or be chased out of every place they ever settled for centuries. I will look for a concise link, but basically, expelled from israel to mediteranean countries, up through spain to europe (i am not so good with geography) but basically kicked out of every where they ever were north ward and then eastward (to poland/russia).

ETA: http://www.sunray22b.net/expulsions.htm
this link is really thourough and long listing 100s of expulsions over the past 2000 years, many official acts of the Catholic Church. But dont worry, there were more, every single little town in Europe that decided to run the Jews out of town one time or another were probably not included in the list.
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#78 of 234 Old 01-15-2008, 02:43 PM
 
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All of us not getting all of our holidays off from work, school, etc. When I lived in Israel, if I wanted "my" holidays off, I had to take them w/o compensation or accommodation. That was fine. When I worked for a company owned and run by Orthodox Jews (in the US), I had to take "my" holidays unpaid or as vacation days - because they weren't included in the company calendar of holidays. Big deal. So no, I don't sympathize when others have to do the same. That's just how life is sometimes. Unfair.

mtiger, i am sorry you seem to have had some less than ideal experiences with Jews. really. but, what does that have to do with the topic of this thread? what am i missing?
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#79 of 234 Old 01-15-2008, 03:24 PM
 
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and I was thinking it was more official Church statements, proclomations and the like. I think you are defining it more narrowly, me more broadly. As usual, it is important to really know what someone else is talking about before you start to argue!!
Even within Christianity there's a lot of variation on what doctrine means and is, so yeah, I kind of figured most people were thinking more along these lines. I just wanted to clarify that if you're talking to a Catholic about doctrine, you're going to be having a wildly different discussion than if you're talking to a Protestant!

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See, I think people keep trying to ascribe notions to this thread that no one is trying to claim. Please keep in mind that we are discussing the historical theological underpinnings of antisemitism rooted in the various streams of the Christian religion. While there has been great progress on the front in many of the churches, esp. in the last 50 years, it is hard to erase nearly 2000 years of teaching otherwise. And some streams haven't been quite so progressive...
Well, I don't speak for anyone else of course, but I at least am not trying to say that the stride the Catholic Church has taken in the last 40-50 years somehow erase the previous 2000 years of crap she spewed.
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I also don't think we have to run around converting Jewish people to Christianity. If they're God's chosen people, why do we need to convert them? The NT is pretty clear that the children of Israel are the chosen people.
Can someone please explain this to me? What exactly does "chosen people" mean to a Christian? And if it is something so great and holy, why wouldn't EVERYONE want to be in on it?

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#81 of 234 Old 01-15-2008, 06:59 PM
 
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All of us not getting all of our holidays off from work, school, etc. When I lived in Israel, if I wanted "my" holidays off, I had to take them w/o compensation or accommodation. That was fine. When I worked for a company owned and run by Orthodox Jews (in the US), I had to take "my" holidays unpaid or as vacation days - because they weren't included in the company calendar of holidays. Big deal. So no, I don't sympathize when others have to do the same. That's just how life is sometimes. Unfair.
Um, I think *all* of us have to take them as unpaid or vacation time. The issue is when there are penalties - as in my story about working at the Catholic hospital or the prof. who didn't want to let me take an exam early b/c it was "my choice" to miss an exam for a religious holiday that "no one had ever heard of" (Sukkos). BTW - missing an exam can mean flunking a course, no matter how "freakin' hard" you work the rest of the time. And I have a whole laundry list of stories of that sort. I just continue to be dumbfounded that you don't get it.
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#82 of 234 Old 01-15-2008, 07:03 PM
 
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mtiger, i am sorry you seem to have had some less than ideal experiences with Jews. really. but, what does that have to do with the topic of this thread? what am i missing?
I almost made this same point. The undertone seems to be less about how she "has had to suck it up" and "didn't whine" and cry persecution, but that she feels she has suffered discrimination at the hands of Jews. Am I reading this right? B/c as more and more comes out, it certainly seems to be the point you are making. And so therefore....what? We should not cry foul when foul is there?
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#83 of 234 Old 01-15-2008, 07:34 PM
 
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I have been thinking about this thread a lot today. I can only speak as a Catholic, and I think that while it is all well and good that the "official" teaching is that the Jewish people are a chosen people and to be loved and respected, I don't know that the message has "trickled down" so to speak, to the laity.

I think all of us need to be pro-active. Let's call our religious ed coordinators and make sure our children are learning about the Jewish faith. Our children have to learn about the history of anti-semitism and persecution of the Jewish people.Let's reach out to the synagogues in our communites and see if we can do some sort of inter-faith activities and learning. I'm going to be doing this first thing tomorrow morning. If we can reach one person, we can hopefully bring about change.

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#84 of 234 Old 01-15-2008, 07:42 PM
 
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Wow! Mooshoes - what a refreshing post!
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#85 of 234 Old 01-15-2008, 09:14 PM
 
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Interesting you bring this up. The SBC had a big convention here in town and a large group (IIRC, from TX, so not local) showed up at one of the Orthodox synagogues during afternoon service and began witnessing in the middle of the service : . They had to be removed by the police. Definitely did NOT do much to foster an atmosphere of cooperation and understanding.


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I don't know how completely historically accurate it is, but I have said all along that I acknowledge the old theologies of the Jews being blamed for Jesus death. Whether they went so far as to call on Christians to avenge it, or to kill Jews who wouldn't convert. It's hard to imagine that those were widely held beliefs since Jews continued to live and die natural lives in areas that were mostly Christian. They bore tons of prejudice and I'm sure violence against them was rampant, but if Christians widely believed they should die, I doubt we would be having this debate right now.

I think you'd find that most Christians reject that idea now. I think it's important to allow people to evolve in mind and theology. Once all of Europe thought the world was flat, but we don't walk around accusing each other of that anymore.
seriously?
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#86 of 234 Old 01-15-2008, 09:27 PM
 
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I almost made this same point. The undertone seems to be less about how she "has had to suck it up" and "didn't whine" and cry persecution, but that she feels she has suffered discrimination at the hands of Jews. Am I reading this right? B/c as more and more comes out, it certainly seems to be the point you are making. And so therefore....what? We should not cry foul when foul is there?
Nope, you're not.
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#87 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 12:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by moonshoes View Post
I have been thinking about this thread a lot today. I can only speak as a Catholic, and I think that while it is all well and good that the "official" teaching is that the Jewish people are a chosen people and to be loved and respected, I don't know that the message has "trickled down" so to speak, to the laity.

I think all of us need to be pro-active. Let's call our religious ed coordinators and make sure our children are learning about the Jewish faith. Our children have to learn about the history of anti-semitism and persecution of the Jewish people.Let's reach out to the synagogues in our communites and see if we can do some sort of inter-faith activities and learning. I'm going to be doing this first thing tomorrow morning. If we can reach one person, we can hopefully bring about change.
AWESOME!!!!!
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#88 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 10:56 AM
 
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Nope, you're not.
So why do you mention that you felt discriminated against in Israel and that Orthodox Jews made no accomodations to you? That surely wasn't an accident.
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#89 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 11:44 AM
 
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I just have to say that I can't believe this conversation is happening because I can't believe anyone sees the basic question open for discussion. Christianity in almost all it's incarnations and Christians in ad hoc groups and as individuals have engaged in persecuting Jews for as long as there has been a clear distinction between the two.
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#90 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 02:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by moonshoes View Post
I have been thinking about this thread a lot today. I can only speak as a Catholic, and I think that while it is all well and good that the "official" teaching is that the Jewish people are a chosen people and to be loved and respected, I don't know that the message has "trickled down" so to speak, to the laity.

I think all of us need to be pro-active. Let's call our religious ed coordinators and make sure our children are learning about the Jewish faith. Our children have to learn about the history of anti-semitism and persecution of the Jewish people.Let's reach out to the synagogues in our communites and see if we can do some sort of inter-faith activities and learning. I'm going to be doing this first thing tomorrow morning. If we can reach one person, we can hopefully bring about change.
Yes, yes, yes!
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