Did Christians persecute the Jews? - Page 8 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#211 of 234 Old 01-22-2008, 04:29 PM
 
mtiger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,377
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CherryBomb View Post

I think it's quite a silly thing to be arguing about, actually.
It is, I agree. And, like you, I have never seen it used as a religious avoidance of mentioning Christ. Only by those intending to be offensive. And honestly? Given the Christian-bashing tone of this thread, that's how it comes across. Offensive.

I won't apologize for finding it such.
mtiger is offline  
#212 of 234 Old 01-22-2008, 05:10 PM
 
crazy_eights's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Nisht ahir un nish aher
Posts: 6,837
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
And, like you, I have never seen it used as a religious avoidance of mentioning Christ.
Except here, right? Or you haven't seen it used here and explained as a religious issue? I'm guessing you have never met any Chabadniks b/c as a rule, they avoid the word "Christ" as do many others. One out of the three schools my kids are in avoids it and it's a very "mainstream" orthodox one. It's quite common in Lakewood too - almost the rule - so I'm surprised you've never heard of it.

I've resigned myself that some will be determined to find offense no matter how well explained an issue.
crazy_eights is offline  
#213 of 234 Old 01-22-2008, 05:24 PM
 
crazy_eights's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Nisht ahir un nish aher
Posts: 6,837
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
And while the accusation of "Christian-bashing" is on the table, can I suggest that this is similar to those that cannot make the distinction betweens whites being the inheritors of the "benefits" of a racist system in the US while individuals may remain not racist? Or that often whites are not even aware of some racist attitudes they hold?
crazy_eights is offline  
#214 of 234 Old 01-22-2008, 05:49 PM
 
BinahYeteirah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,163
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dov'sMom View Post
Not like Orthodox Judaism, maybe, but my understanding (from admittedly fairly narrow exposure) is that Conservative Judaism leans toward a "sola scriptura" approach as well -- modern scholars can reinterpret ancient texts and if the interpretation is logical they can throw out the law that was based on the old interpretation.
I think you might be right about that. At least it seems to be true in Reform Judaism. In any case, these are both relatively new movements in Judaism, and even they recognize that their way of doing things is not in line with traditional Judaism.
BinahYeteirah is offline  
#215 of 234 Old 01-22-2008, 06:05 PM
 
BinahYeteirah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,163
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtiger View Post
It is, I agree. And, like you, I have never seen it used as a religious avoidance of mentioning Christ. Only by those intending to be offensive. And honestly? Given the Christian-bashing tone of this thread, that's how it comes across. Offensive.

I won't apologize for finding it such.
Oh, well...

Just to explain further, this isn't the only term some religious Jews avoid saying or writing. For example, my husband is into astronomy. He makes an effort to call the planets and constellations by alternative names, since many of them are named after Roman gods and goddesses. Some of them have Jewish names that come from the Talmud. He tries to use those when he can; I think Jupiter is called "Tzedek". Sometimes he just makes up alternate names, if he doesn't know one from Torah and wants to avoid saying something. Sometimes he has to say the regular name, or no one would know what he's talking about, but he prefers not to due to his religious convictions. It's certainly not something he does to upset Pagan Roman Reconstructionists!
BinahYeteirah is offline  
#216 of 234 Old 01-22-2008, 07:02 PM
 
mamabadger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,840
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickarolaberry View Post
Would a Gospel scholar please explain (not meaning this snarkily) the classic "passion play" lines and how they are not anti-Jewish? (i.e. "His blood be upon us and our children") Especially considering how they have been used in history as a stepping-off point for pogroms against Jews during the Easter season?
I am certainly not a Gospel scholar, but I am familiar with the lines, which are found in the Gospels. Some parts of the Gospels describe the fairly intense conflict between Jesus and his followers, and certain members of the Jewish hierarchy. The claim was, in short, that some leaders of the Jewish community, finding Jesus a source of conflict and disturbance, and finding some of his teachings and actions scandalous, allowed/encouraged Jesus to be turned over to the Roman authorities, who eventually had him executed, partly in response to perceived popular support.

"How are these statements not anti-Jewish?"
Because they are supposed to describe the actions of a small, specific group of people at a particular time in history. Saying "David Berkowitz was a serial killer" is not anti-Jewish, because it states a fact about one particular Jewish man, and does not imply anything about Jews in general except to an already prejudiced mind.
Again, I can only give the interpretation my own church would offer: that any guilt which might be attached to the Pharisees' actions ended with the death of those individuals. They did not pass it along to their descendants, certainly not over many, many generations. Even if they not only agreed with and accepted responsibility for the execution, even if they prayed to God to pass the responsibility on to their descendants ad infinitum, God (as we understand Him) would not have done so. Anyone who believes that this passage justifies violent acts against Jews is in total ignorance, or else is using Scripture to come up with excuses for something they planned to do in the first place. It would make as much sense as assaulting random Italians because the Romans carried out Jesus' crucifixion, and using Scripture to justify it.
mamabadger is offline  
#217 of 234 Old 01-22-2008, 07:04 PM
 
BinahYeteirah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,163
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamabadger View Post
Maybe I misinterpreted. Your statement, like scripture, is open to many interpretations. You explained that few people have the years of education and background to interpret Jewish texts, unlike Christian texts, which "speak for themselves." I should add that the concept held by some Protestant denominations, that the Bible can be picked up and correctly interpreted by anyone at all, is most definitely not accepted by all Christian churches.
One thing I was trying to explain, which I apparently did not do so well, it a basic difference in the way the "scriptures" are used and interpreted. In Protestant Christianity, the Bible, more or less, stands alone. A person just needs that one book to do basic "Bible study". Of course, there are many other texts that could be referenced, but the Bible itself is considered the ultimate authority. In traditional Judaism, on the other hand, one hardly ever reads "scripture" alone. The Chumash (the first 5 books of the Torah) is usually read with Rashi's commentary, for example. We might try to find personal meaning or make personal reflections on the words of the Torah, but for the correct interpretation, we look to centuries of Jewish sages to explain the words. We believe the words of the sages ultimately derive from the Torah itself, but one can't really be separated from the other. It's a rather complex relationship that's hard to explain, but I'm trying. Also, it is a very strong tradition in Protestantism that one can take a Bible in the vernacular and understand the text that way. While some do study in the original languages, this has never been considered sufficient in Judaism.

Also, as far as my comments about educational background go, I'm not just trying to say that non-Jews are just ignorant/stupid and can never understand what a Jew can. I do think that most people, Jews included, lack the required background to interpret the Torah. I include myself in this. Most people are woefully uneducated about Judaism. Unless a person has attended Jewish educational institutions or make a serious effort at self-education, the level of Jewish knowledge will be very poor.

On the other hand, in the US, basic and not-so-basic Christian history and knowledge is a part of most people's secular education. Probably a third of my European History courses in high school and college consisted of the history of the church. I had a required course in college on medieval thought in which I was assigned to read selections of many Christian thinkers, including Augustine, Anselm, Bernard and Aquinas (the professor was Jewish, btw!). I was an Art History major and I analyzed more Crucifixions and Annunciations than I could count (in several courses that were, interestingly, also taught by a Jewish professor). There was very little Jewish content to my liberal arts education, despite a large Jewish population and Jewish professors at the university I attended. They did have a Jewish studies department, but that was something one had to seek out, rather than part of the core requirements, as Christian knowledge was. So while I may not be the best person to interpret Christian scriptures, I do not feel that I am coming from a place of total ignorance as most people approach Judaism. It is virtually impossible to graduate from public schools and universities without some kind of background in Christianity. This is why I almost start to laugh when Christians start to try and explain the Reformation to me, like I wouldn't know just because I'm Jewish. I'm not saying I'm a scholar in this area of anything, but, really, we get a fair Christian education just by being in a Christian-majority country.
BinahYeteirah is offline  
#218 of 234 Old 01-22-2008, 09:00 PM
 
crazy_eights's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Nisht ahir un nish aher
Posts: 6,837
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamabadger View Post
"How are these statements not anti-Jewish?"
Because they are supposed to describe the actions of a small, specific group of people at a particular time in history. Saying "David Berkowitz was a serial killer" is not anti-Jewish, because it states a fact about one particular Jewish man, and does not imply anything about Jews in general except to an already prejudiced mind.
David Berkowitz did not write a book that informs the theology of any religion and Paul was not just "some Jewish dude with issues about Jews". I'm surprised that a Christian would try to minimize Paul in such a fashion.
crazy_eights is offline  
#219 of 234 Old 01-22-2008, 09:08 PM
 
orangebird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Barack's Camp, and still loving Mah
Posts: 7,820
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamabadger View Post


Let's try it, again, with a different religion.
1) Muslims have committed many terrorist acts.
2) Terrorism is an essential part of Islam.

Or...
1) Some Jews are racists.
2) Racism is a basic element of Judaism.

Can we agree there is a difference between 1 and 2?

The persecution of other groups by Christians or by Europeans under Christian culture has been brought up before. I think it is relevant to this issue. Over the centuries, different churches or organizations have claimed a Christian, scriptural basis for many things...
Slavery
Child beating
Wife beating
Racial segregation
Witch burning
Denying the vote to women
Numerous military invasions
Book banning
Torture
Genocide of native populations
The censorship of Copernican astronomy
All of these things have been put forth - wrongly - as based on Christian scripture and teaching, and often supported through violence or even mass murder. Along with these and many others, the idea that Christians should persecute the Jews was and is believed by some. Why single out just one of these crackpot ideas, and insist that it really, truly is essential to Christianity?

I will also add, one more time, that it is not appropriate to define and explain the religion of another. That is especially true here, where I suspect hostility against Christianity would thwart any attempt to be objective.
I'm sorry. I just won't be able to see it that way

I grew up a conservative Jew, with reform relatives, orthodox rabbi relatives, etc. We were all over the map as far as observancy. And unlike the many, many different Christian denomonations I knew, I never heard anything from my parents, my relatives, my community, about getting out the vote and discriminating against a group just trying to live and be themselves. As long as I can remember almost every Christian group I have come across has spoken out about, I don't know, pick your cause, gay marriage, gay adoption, sodomy laws, and so on. I am NOT saying, by any stretch that all Christians are like this, and that no Jews are. Of course. We are all human. But as groups. I can't understand how this can be denied.

J(mumble mumble) explained it more elegantly than I, but I'm still just sayin, didn't want you to think I was ignoring you, I just saw your response today.
orangebird is offline  
#220 of 234 Old 01-22-2008, 09:45 PM
 
Janelovesmax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: with water bugs.
Posts: 2,054
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom2seven View Post
David Berkowitz did not write a book that informs the theology of any religion and Paul was not just "some Jewish dude with issues about Jews". I'm surprised that a Christian would try to minimize Paul in such a fashion.
I don't think she is talking about Paul.
Janelovesmax is offline  
#221 of 234 Old 01-22-2008, 10:56 PM
 
CherryBomb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 8,143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I'm confused on where we're even at anymore.
CherryBomb is offline  
#222 of 234 Old 01-22-2008, 10:58 PM
 
CherryBomb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 8,143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
*
CherryBomb is offline  
#223 of 234 Old 01-22-2008, 11:43 PM
 
crazy_eights's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Nisht ahir un nish aher
Posts: 6,837
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janelovesmax View Post
I don't think she is talking about Paul.
You're right. I misunderstood the answer. But she is answering about what is written in the gospels. And what she *is* writing about are the "Pharisees" which are given a very bad rap in the NT, including that they turned him over to the Romans. Now, you can say that it is just a "small group of Jews". However, all of "Rabbinic Judaism" (that's just mainstream Jews throughout the millennium to me and you) are the descendants of the "Pharisees". See where this could be a problem????
crazy_eights is offline  
#224 of 234 Old 01-23-2008, 12:09 AM
 
Janelovesmax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: with water bugs.
Posts: 2,054
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom2seven View Post
You're right. I misunderstood the answer. But she is answering about what is written in the gospels. And what she *is* writing about are the "Pharisees" which are given a very bad rap in the NT, including that they turned him over to the Romans. Now, you can say that it is just a "small group of Jews". However, all of "Rabbinic Judaism" (that's just mainstream Jews throughout the millennium to me and you) are the descendants of the "Pharisees". See where this could be a problem????
yes!
Janelovesmax is offline  
#225 of 234 Old 01-23-2008, 12:39 AM
 
crazy_eights's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Nisht ahir un nish aher
Posts: 6,837
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janelovesmax View Post
yes!
We see eye to eye on something!
crazy_eights is offline  
#226 of 234 Old 01-23-2008, 02:11 AM
 
mamaverdi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 12,872
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by graceomalley View Post
I think you'll find that only one person is the 'head' of Christianity, and that's Jesus. The rest are followers who made up their own teachings. This happens in all religions and is the reason why there are sects among all religions. The Pope only speaks for a small number of Christians, as does Luther, as does Joseph Smith and Calvin and another other figurehead of a denomination.
Okay. So this is WHY I said @ or AT the head. Not, "the head" cuz yeah I didn't want to get into the whole BODY of JC analogy.

And I posted SEVERAL times a link to this page called http://www.messiahtruth.com/anti.html

It is a page called The Anti-Jewish New Testament.

BUT most of the information comes from a book written by a C'ian who points out examples of anti-Jewish sentiment in the so called NT.

AND you can put in the chapter and verse into www.blueletterbible.org and look at it in various translations of the NT and see that he didn't just pull these out of his

I can do it and copy it here, but I just don't personally have time.

But I HAVE now posted this AT LEAST 3 times.

And I can't quote from the site because of the copyright rules etc.

Let me use one or two examples since maybe the link is offensive?

Here's a good one: Matthew 12:34a: in this verse the Pharisees are called evil poisonous snakes. Check it here: www.blueletterbible.org

Or John 8:44 Ye [Jews] are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


Maybe most people (C'ians) don't know that modern Jews are descendants of Pharisees. Pharisees weren't just some small little group of Jews.



I don't know if I should even say this. Maybe it's irrelevant since I'm no longer C'ian, but I'll try.

I was brought up in a very fundamentalist church. Until I was 12 years old in fact. We were preacher's grandkids, both my grandfathers were preachers, and one of them lived in Central America for a long long time "missionizing." My mother and step-father are still very C'ian, as are my grandparents.

So back to my point. I cannot hear the word Pharisee to this day and not think of that word or the group of people FIRST as I was taught to see them. Maybe this isn't how most C'ians are taught. But I was taught that they were vile, vipers, out for only themselves, to hurt others, to arrange for the DEATH of JC. That they would pray in public while it was more modest to pray in one's closet in the dark (I don't even know where this idea comes from---but I remember being taught this). I have almost a cartoon-like picture in my head of who these people were.

And so despite the history that I know, and despite my conversion, and despite well just about everything, I still have that cartoon picture and feeling of near revulsion when I hear the word Pharisee.

But maybe my "little" church was the only one teaching this? I hope so. But I kind of doubt it.

And given how many of my "friends" and family members who started praying for my "lost" soul when I converted, I dunno. I guess, as a C'ian, I didn't see so much of C'ianity as thinking Jews had it all wrong, and how really any of this was/is offensive. I NEVER expected people to start praying for me because I became a Jew. I NEVER expected to be told that EVERYONE should see that Mel Gibson movie because it was the most spiritual experience ever. I NEVER expected my grandmother to make a face of "yeah of course" when I mentioned a problem that existed at the Jewish school that my son goes to (a problem at many schools by the way, not just Jewish ones).

And I'm sure someone can come along and say, well they aren't really C'ians, but rest assured, they don't think any of you are C'ians either.
mamaverdi is offline  
#227 of 234 Old 01-23-2008, 12:21 PM
 
Tracy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: "It's Chinatown, Jake"
Posts: 12,452
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtiger View Post
It is, I agree. And, like you, I have never seen it used as a religious avoidance of mentioning Christ. Only by those intending to be offensive. And honestly? Given the Christian-bashing tone of this thread, that's how it comes across. Offensive.

I won't apologize for finding it such.
wow. I gotta say christian bashing tone is not how I would characterize this thread. and I'm confident Mods would be all over it if that was the case. You may want to send them a PM if you have seen such a post.

Check out New Moon on my Astrology Site

http://tracyastrosalon.blogspot.com/

 

Tracy is offline  
#228 of 234 Old 01-23-2008, 12:36 PM
 
CherryBomb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 8,143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamaverdi View Post

And I'm sure someone can come along and say, well they aren't really C'ians, but rest assured, they don't think any of you are C'ians either.

I don't think it's so much that people don't think they're Christians, just that they aren't representative of all of Christendom, and a lot of times on this board we all get lumped together and are expected to speak for everyone when it's not really possible. And yeah, it sounds like they're the type who probably don't think I'm a Christian

Quote:
That they would pray in public while it was more modest to pray in one's closet in the dark (I don't even know where this idea comes from---but I remember being taught this)
It's likely a reference to Matthew 6:5-

Quote:
"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full."
But it sounds like they missed the whole point of that verse, which wasn't that praying in public is inherently wrong or evil (I mean duh, plenty of Christians pray publicly!), but that praying for the sake of being seen is wrong. It's better to pray earnestly in private where no one but God will see you than to pray falsely in public so that people think you're pious when you're not.

Quote:
Or John 8:44 Ye [Jews] are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Right before that it says
Quote:
To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
So again it's not speaking of Jews as a whole (which would include Jesus himself) but of the ones who were denying him. Jesus isn't saying that the Jews who rejected him were evil and formed by Satan, but that Satan is the father of lies and that (in Jesus' view) many of the Jews had fallen victim to his lies, i.e. become his children. I understand it's problematic because Christians looking for excuses to be anti-Semites can easily use such scripture to support their view, ignoring the fact that the statement would apply to anyone who's rejected Christ, Jew or gentile (and of course many non-Christians don't like the idea that they've fallen victim to lies if they're not Christians, but that's another thread).

Quote:
But maybe my "little" church was the only one teaching this? I hope so. But I kind of doubt it.
I doubt it, too. Sounds like a fairly common theme in fundamentalist type churches. My mom went to a Methodist bible college and I was raised non-denomination Protestant, and while I certainly wasn't given the cartoonish vision of the Pharisee like you were, I wasn't really told a lot about Jews at all. I wasn't told they were bad or people I should pity, but I wasn't really told anything, which is almost just as sad, I think.

Quote:
Now, you can say that it is just a "small group of Jews". However, all of "Rabbinic Judaism" (that's just mainstream Jews throughout the millennium to me and you) are the descendants of the "Pharisees". See where this could be a problem????
Yeah, I can see that.
CherryBomb is offline  
#229 of 234 Old 01-23-2008, 01:55 PM
 
gilamama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: in the Golan Mountains
Posts: 1,958
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CherryBomb View Post

So again it's not speaking of Jews as a whole (which would include Jesus himself) but of the ones who were denying him.
Cherry, i really appretiate your tone and your attention to detail in your response. I just wanted to ask if this is maybe a major difference btwn Xianity and Judaism. B/c when you say that not all the Jews are children of the devil only the one who dont beleive that J is the Messiah, that pretty much includes every.Jew.who.Judaism.considers.Jewish. If you accept that messiah has come and canceled all the mitzvot. That counts you out from our people.

Devarim 13 (deuteronomy)

Quote:
1 All this word which I command you, that shall ye observe to do; thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. {P}

2 If there arise in the midst of thee a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams--and he give thee a sign or a wonder, 3 and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spoke unto thee--saying: 'Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them'; 4 thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or unto that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God putteth you to proof, to know whether ye do love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 5 After the LORD your God shall ye walk, and Him shall ye fear, and His commandments shall ye keep, and unto His voice shall ye hearken, and Him shall ye serve, and unto Him shall ye cleave. 6 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken perversion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of bondage, to draw thee aside out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in.
gilamama is offline  
#230 of 234 Old 01-23-2008, 02:27 PM
 
CherryBomb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 8,143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by gilamama View Post
Cherry, i really appretiate your tone and your attention to detail in your response. I just wanted to ask if this is maybe a major difference btwn Xianity and Judaism. B/c when you say that not all the Jews are children of the devil only the one who dont beleive that J is the Messiah, that pretty much includes every.Jew.who.Judaism.considers.Jewish. If you accept that messiah has come and canceled all the mitzvot. That counts you out from our people.
I totally understand how that sounds when you frame in a modern context, because Jews who accept Christ don't ID as Jewish anymore (besides Messianics I suppose, but I know that's a point of contention), so then you've got like...A HUGE number of people falling on the "other side". Where as when Jesus was talking, he was talking about a relatively small number of people (in total, both those that accepted him and those that didn't). So in his context it's like...well, okay. But in modern terms it can be really shocking to think of it that way, because you're talking about millions of people. Does that make any sense?

It's a difficult subject in general to talk about, because it's hard to respectfully say to anyone, whether they're Jewish or not "I think my way is the Truth and others are victims of lies." WRT Jews specifically it's *very* uncomfortable because representing your religion (i.e., Catholicism) truthfully is difficult when there *is* such a strong historical context of antisemitism, as well as a modern one. Most people don't take "Oh well, you're not any more of a sinner than anyone else" in a positive way, even if they person isn't trying to be offensive. It's kind of like...having someone in this thread refer to Christ as a "false God" is hurtful, but at the same time I understand the intent is the person being honest about their own belief.
CherryBomb is offline  
#231 of 234 Old 01-23-2008, 03:39 PM
 
gilamama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: in the Golan Mountains
Posts: 1,958
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CherryBomb View Post
I totally understand how that sounds when you frame in a modern context, because Jews who accept Christ don't ID as Jewish anymore (besides Messianics I suppose, but I know that's a point of contention), so then you've got like...A HUGE number of people falling on the "other side". Where as when Jesus was talking, he was talking about a relatively small number of people (in total, both those that accepted him and those that didn't). So in his context it's like...well, okay. But in modern terms it can be really shocking to think of it that way, because you're talking about millions of people. Does that make any sense?
i am not sure.

Quote:
Most people don't take "Oh well, you're not any more of a sinner than anyone else" in a positive way, even if they person isn't trying to be offensive.


I remember my friend Robin came into high school one day, and told us how she had a dream the night before that all her Jewish friends went to hell. So not any more a sinner than anyone else sounds pretty... um... ecumenical (is that the right word?) to me.

Is that specifically Catholic post Vatican II ideology? How would a Protestant think abt Jews compared to other "sinners?
gilamama is offline  
#232 of 234 Old 01-23-2008, 03:46 PM
 
Kidzaplenty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Writing my Happily Ever After
Posts: 16,983
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by gilamama View Post
Is that specifically Catholic post Vatican II ideology? How would a Protestant think abt Jews compared to other "sinners?
The Scriptures teach that ALL have sinned.

Romans 5:12
Quote:
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 3:23
Quote:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
No distinction is made about any person, no matter their race, religion, gender, or anything. ALL means ALL.

Any misspellings or grammatical errors in the above statement are intentional;
they are placed there for the amusement of those who like to point them out.
Kidzaplenty is offline  
#233 of 234 Old 01-24-2008, 06:10 AM
 
heket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Ruling my own Library
Posts: 2,760
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kidzaplenty View Post
But again, this all goes back to history. All our history as Christians began at Jesus. So in some sense or another we are all inter-related, sure. But that does not make the basics of the Christian faith anti-semitic. And I am not speaking of just MY church, I am speaking from personal experience with MANY churches over the last 35 years of my life covering several different sects. As well as from my knowledge of scriptures that I have studied extensively. The scriptures are in no way anti-semitic, and that is the sole basis for my Christian beliefs. Church doctrines do differ from church to church, but I have also never come across that teaching within any of the many churches I have been a member of.

So again, I don't really understand what this thread is wanting from "me" as a Christian. To admit that the church teaches anti-semitic teachings? Because it that is what is being asked I will never do it, because it is simply untrue, from where I stand. Again, perhaps somewhere back in history, but not in any my experience. If you are asking that it has happened in the past, sure and it was horrid, but I can't change the past. All I can do is to change the future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penelope View Post
I'm supposed to be cleaning house : so I don't have time at this moment to look up verses for you. But the early Christians had some serious conflicts with Jewish authorities as Christianity was getting established as its own, independant sect. So when the gospels were written, and even when Paul was writing, that tension was in play. The frequent trope in the gospels about the Pharisees this and the Sadducees that is one example... those aren't good *historical* representations of either Jewish group. They're highly colored by early Christian experiences. Does that make sense?
Historically, christianity has issues with it's formation, much less against the jews. Just look to the new discoveries of gospels, texts, and thoughts. History channel has some interesting ideas on why certain gospels were left out of christian theology and how that would affect their perceived thoughts of Jesus and the prophet they wanted to portray (as an up and coming religion of the 1st/ 2nd century.)

So fast forward. Jews were useful to society in medievel Europe because they were money lenders. It was convenient to expel them once the Crusades came around. Same as the Moors in Spain, or Gypsies in Europe. When the holocaust came around, not only was it the Jews, but homosexuals, gypsies, and other unwanted elements that would not promulgate the "ideal race." Unfortunately the largest sect that was exterminated was the Jews.

Quote:
Originally Posted by umsami View Post
Maybe they never brought it up because I went to a high school in Michigan that had many kids whose parents were executives at the Big Three (automakers)?? Also a big Jewish population... so it probably wasn't PC to bring up. Who knows... my Mom and I could have been having a girls' day that day. (She used to call me in sick and we'd go shopping.)
That's like saying my mom went to school with daughters of the Mafia (it was a Catholic high school and she will swear that she went to school with - forgive me, it's her term - goombas. She has stories of teen girls who would go to school in the Brooklyn area with full furs and limousine rides. I'm sure they didn't talk about (or know of) their father's work either.

This thread is interesting and frightening. Someone mentioned the paperclips story. Yes, it's nice, but not the only holocaust/ teens learning kind of story. What about Hanna's Suitcase? Same idea, but Japanese teens. What about hate groups who swear the holocaust only exists on made up video? How many people have gone to a holocaust museum?

Christians were persecuted, and jews have been persecuted. No, they aren't the only religious groups. They aren't the only minority groups. It isn't a matter of who has been, was or will be. It's a matter of how do we change it now, and how can we heal together.
heket is offline  
#234 of 234 Old 01-24-2008, 11:00 AM
 
CherryBomb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 8,143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by gilamama View Post
Is that specifically Catholic post Vatican II ideology? How would a Protestant think abt Jews compared to other "sinners?
I'm not sure, it probably just depends on who you're talking about specifically. I think most Christians in general acknowledge that all of us have sinned and are sinners. I wouldn't doubt though that there are groups that place a special sin on Jews, though.
CherryBomb is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off