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Old 04-30-2008, 10:32 PM
 
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We are here to grow,experience and create. Please don't put words in my mouth about God not caring about us as his love for all life is infinite and eternal. I simply mean that God is not concerned about our beliefs because beliefs having nothing to do with the soul. They are of the mind. What we think is real here is one big illusion. Another reason we are here is because we chose to be. Earth is a place where you can have all kinds of experiences.
I'm sorry for my wording. I was coming from a place where parents who I have known who care little for their children lay down no rules and give them no structure- my husband's parents as an example.

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Old 04-30-2008, 10:41 PM
 
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We are here to grow,experience and create. Please don't put words in my mouth about God not caring about us as his love for all life is infinite and eternal. I simply mean that God is not concerned about our beliefs because beliefs having nothing to do with the soul. They are of the mind. What we think is real here is one big illusion. Another reason we are here is because we chose to be. Earth is a place where you can have all kinds of experiences.
Well, your philosophy on the meaning and purpose of life is nothing like Christianity's, but is very similar to what the average person on the street would say when asked the question.

You know, one of the things that struck me as so profound initially about the Catholic Church was the answer to the question "Why are we here?" My entire life, every single person I met would give an answer similar to what Thomas said above - that it's all about "experiences" and "growing" or some other such emphemeral, vague answer. I even gave the same answer myself when I was not Catholic.

When I first heard the Catholic Church's definition of why we are here (this is literally page one of the catechism) it hit me like a ton of bricks. You ready?

We are here to know, love, and serve God in this life so that we may be happy with Him in Heaven in the next.

That's it.

Short. Simple. Doable.

No mystical ramblings about stuff I didn't understand - just a very simple set of instructions.

Know Him, love Him, and serve Him.

And as the Church says, you cannot love Whom you do not know, and you cannot serve Whom you do not love.

Hence, the whole reason for the existence of the catechism - so you can know Him. Why would you follow His laws if you do not understand why He made them? You wouldn't. But the more you know about Him, the more you love His law and want to serve Him by obeying. That's how it works.
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Old 04-30-2008, 10:48 PM
 
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Very interesting Stacy! I hadn't known that.
But one must learn and grow to become closer to God, am I right?
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Hence, the whole reason for the existence of the catechism - so you can know Him. Why would you follow His laws if you do not understand why He made them? You wouldn't. But the more you know about Him, the more you love His law and want to serve Him by obeying.
The parts I bolded stand out to me as being something one has to gain knowledge and experience on or grow into. That's what I got from your statement- one must still learn and grow into loving God. Please expound if I am totally off. Obviously I am not Catholic, I never have been, but I am very curious. I am not going to pretend to know your religion so please don't take my above statement/conclusion as meaning such.

Like I said before for us LDS it's not just about being with God but also being like Him, just like we grow from children to adults here on Earth.

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Old 04-30-2008, 10:50 PM
 
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I'm sorry for my wording. I was coming from a place where parents who I have known who care little for their children lay down no rules and give them no structure- my husband's parents as an example.

Unfortunately that is a big problem in our society. On a spiritual level I believe the universe was set up where everyone experiences the results of their actions. It is not divine punishment but natural consequences. We will all have to one day experience what it was like to be the other person we either helped or hurt both directly and indirectly. Near death experiencers report being taken on a life review while in the light. Being in the light is perfect but the life review process can be unpleasant because you experience what you caused others to experience from their perspective. There is no judgement or rebuke from the being of light but it is simply the soul relecting on its past life.
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Old 04-30-2008, 11:02 PM
 
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We will all have to one day experience what it was like to be the other person we either helped or hurt both directly and indirectly. Near death experiencers report being taken on a life review while in the light. Being in the light is perfect but the life review process can be unpleasant because you experience what you caused others to experience from their perspective. There is no judgement or rebuke from the being of light but it is simply the soul relecting on its past life.
I am LOL at the above because that is basically just a New Age spin on the Catholic doctrine of the Particular Judgment. That's pretty funny.

The doctrine of the Particular Judgment states the soul of every man at death undergoes a Particular Judgment where they will stand before the Lord and give an accounting of every thought, word, and deed, in their life and will see how their actions/omissions affected others from the perfect lens of God's omniscient viewpoint, not our own limited one. Then the Judgment of God's mercy (salvation) or justice (condemnation) is rendered unto that soul for all eternity.
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Old 04-30-2008, 11:07 PM
 
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Very interesting Stacy! I hadn't known that.
But one must learn and grow to become closer to God, am I right?
That's what I got from your statement- one must still learn and grow into loving God. Please expound if I am totally off.
Yes, that's exactly right.

You grow in love for God as you gain knowledge of Him, and therefore gain holiness and draw closer to Him and draw away from the world.

It's not about gaining "experiences" or having "fun."

Unfortunately, I think this is what the majority of society thinks of life today, that the purpose of life is to have as many "experiences" as you can while you're here before you go, because their is nothing after this.
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Old 05-01-2008, 12:56 AM
 
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Yes, that's exactly right.

You grow in love for God as you gain knowledge of Him, and therefore gain holiness and draw closer to Him and draw away from the world.

It's not about gaining "experiences" or having "fun."

Unfortunately, I think this is what the majority of society thinks of life today, that the purpose of life is to have as many "experiences" as you can while you're here before you go, because their is nothing after this.
Oh I think I am understanding a bit better (forgive me. I can be preeetty dense!). So you are saying we are not here to live chaotic free-for-all lives as a means of "experiences" which is what the world tells us- "eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die"- because true growth and experience come through God and His work?

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Old 05-01-2008, 12:58 AM
 
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Unfortunately that is a big problem in our society. On a spiritual level I believe the universe was set up where everyone experiences the results of their actions. It is not divine punishment but natural consequences. We will all have to one day experience what it was like to be the other person we either helped or hurt both directly and indirectly. Near death experiencers report being taken on a life review while in the light. Being in the light is perfect but the life review process can be unpleasant because you experience what you caused others to experience from their perspective. There is no judgement or rebuke from the being of light but it is simply the soul relecting on its past life.
This is very interesting Thomas. For me I think you are right AND that it is also God- Like the Big Bang theory could be right but it would be the way God works not proof He isn't there.

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Old 05-01-2008, 11:30 AM
 
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Oh I think I am understanding a bit better (forgive me. I can be preeetty dense!). So you are saying we are not here to live chaotic free-for-all lives as a means of "experiences" which is what the world tells us- "eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die"- because true growth and experience come through God and His work?

Exactly.

And it probably worth noting that the only "doctrine" of Luciferianism is a version of what you stated above (eat, drink, and be merry) and that is:

"Do what thou wilt is the whole of the law."

If the only "law" is to do whatever you feel, whenever you feel, (as long as it '"feels" right/good at the time) then you're answering to no one above yourself and you've made yourself 'god.'
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Old 05-01-2008, 11:38 AM
 
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Ok at first I thought you said "Lutheranism" and I was like "oh no she didn't!" :

Where are you getting this "Luciferianism"? Crowley?

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Old 05-01-2008, 12:02 PM
 
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While looking for a definition of Luciferianism I found this:

"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

2 Timothy 4:3


Kinda eerie.
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Old 05-01-2008, 12:24 PM
 
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Sorry you've experienced this. The Holy Spirit is God and I trust him. Its his way of communicating with his creation. I will always rely on him. Your right that it must not contradict with Gods law.

I can never understand division but do have faith that God is bigger then that and will use it in what ever way serves his purpose.

When quoting your question, I wasn't aiming my comment directly at you. Sorry if you understood it that way.
I was never saying the Holy Spirit wasn't God. I said a lot of people get an idea in their head and use the Holy Spirit to justify it. One guy hears the Holy Spirit saying "do XYZ" another guy hears the Holy Spirit saying "kill guy #1 for doing XYZ. He is evil." they aren't both hearing from the Holy Spirit.

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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Old 05-01-2008, 12:36 PM
 
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I'm just curious about this statement. How can you not be concerned about your final destination? As a Christian, I'm totally concerned about it. One of my primary objectives is to be with God after I die, and although of course it's not in my power where my soul will end up, I cannot help but be concerned.
My goal is to serve God and honor Him. I do it because He is worthy and because he has commanded it, not because there is anything in it from me. He can do with me as He please with me when he is done with me. I do hope and I do pray and I do desire to be with Him for all eternity. It grieves to contemplate eternity without Him. Not because I fear Hell but because I want God so badly. It shames me to think that I might be found wanting (although it surely wouldn't surprise me) I think He is pretty great and want to keep right on serving Him and worshiping Him eternally. But that is not my motivation and not my reason. I don't worship and serve Him as repayment for salvation or to earn my salvation. I do it because it is His due regardless of if he cares two cents about me. regardless of if he gives me what I need for today or what I desire for eternity. and if he doesn't find me worthy then so be it. Who am I to complain about what God does with his creation.

it may seem depressing but it is actually quite freeing.

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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Old 05-01-2008, 12:51 PM
 
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One need to be careful when they rely on following the Holy Spirit.
I was questioning this statement. Maybe it came out wrong?
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Old 05-01-2008, 01:54 PM
 
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Yes, not worrying about where I will end up after my life is over is freeing.

And it means that the things I do to become closer to God are not done because it assures me a place in Heaven.

What if God's plan is that I do not go to Heaven? Then there is no amount of works I can do to change that.

I think this is where people believe Catholics do works to get into Heaven. No, Catholics do works to become closer to God. We can't prayer our way in, or work our way in.

In my life I want to become closer to Christ and for me that means behaving in ways that are Holy.
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Old 05-01-2008, 02:45 PM
 
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While looking for a definition of Luciferianism I found this:

"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

2 Timothy 4:3


Kinda eerie.
Wow! But how do we know what is "sound doctrine?"

I just wanted to thank everyone for posting their opinions in this thread. It's really helping me with something I've been struggling through.
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Old 05-01-2008, 03:03 PM
 
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Where are you getting this "Luciferianism"? Crowley?
No, Crowley is just a contemporary 20th century follower, along with Blavatsky, Hubbard, Parsons, Sanger, et al., but Luciferianism is more of a blanket term for the much more ancient Babylonian mystery religions which go back much further in the worship of satan under his many, many names.
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Old 05-01-2008, 03:04 PM
 
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Wow! But how do we know what is "sound doctrine?"

I just wanted to thank everyone for posting their opinions in this thread. It's really helping me with something I've been struggling through.
That is the purpose of the Church - to be the protector of sound doctrine.
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Old 05-01-2008, 03:08 PM
 
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While looking for a definition of Luciferianism I found this:

"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

2 Timothy 4:3


Kinda eerie.

Here is the original translation from the Latin Vulgate (your version is not too far off):

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." 2 Timothy 4:3/DRV
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Old 05-01-2008, 03:14 PM
 
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What if God's plan is that I do not go to Heaven? Then there is no amount of works I can do to change that.
God does not have a "plan" for anyone to go to Hell. God wishes that ALL men should be saved (this is straight out of scripture) but he does require certain "works" (read: ACTIONS) on one's part in order to be saved. He is quite specific about the actions one must take as well (again, straight out of scripture) and this includes the Sacraments and staying free from mortal sin.

P.S. I just noticed your siggy - did you know Mansfield was a well-known Luciferian and a member of Crowley's sect in Los Angeles? There is even speculation that she was murdered as part of an occult ritual.

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The Church of Satan:

Founded, by Anton S. LaVey in San Francisco, California, in 1966, on Walpurgisnach or April 30, the most celebrated feast of the Witchcraft.

- LaVey, appeared as the Devil in the film "Rosemary's Baby", and was technical director of another film, "The Devil's Rain". His most famous disciple was Sammy Davis Junior, who later regretted experimenting with Satanism. Film star Jayne (sic) Mansfield was also a member of the Church of Satan, which has an estimated 5,000 members.
http://www.religion-cults.com/Occult...m/Satanism.htm

Here's a photo:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y3/..._mansfield.jpg
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Old 05-01-2008, 03:59 PM
 
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I didn't say God had a plan for anyone to go to hell

I wasn't interested in Mansfield's religious affiliations. I liked her quote.

FYI, I'm Catholic and a practicing one at that.
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Old 05-01-2008, 04:05 PM
 
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I liked her quote.

FYI, I'm Catholic and a practicing one at that.
I know you are. I just thought it was interesting in light of the previous comments.
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Old 05-01-2008, 04:26 PM
 
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That is the purpose of the Church - to be the protector of sound doctrine.
But how do we know that Christianity is the truth, the doctrine to be protected? (Sorry if I'm going OT here).

Also, isn't there a risk of making the Catholic Church the focus of our faith rather than God?
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Old 05-01-2008, 04:33 PM
 
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I was questioning this statement. Maybe it came out wrong?
yeah that came out wrong especially when it is taken by itself.

One needs to be careful that it is really the Holy Spirit they are hearing and not whatever makes them happy and then just assuming it was from the Holy Spirit because it is what they wanted to hear.

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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Old 05-01-2008, 04:45 PM
 
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But how do we know that Christianity is the truth, the doctrine to be protected? (Sorry if I'm going OT here).

Because God Himself revealed this. He founded a Church, literally, physically - not "mystically" or metaphorically. He founded the One True Catholic Apostolic Church and assigned Her the task of protecting and spreading His Word throughout the world. BTW, this is why the universal language of the Church is Latin and why all documents are written by Her in Latin - to protect and be precise about the meaning of the words.
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Old 05-01-2008, 05:10 PM
 
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No, Crowley is just a contemporary 20th century follower, along with Blavatsky, Hubbard, Parsons, Sanger, et al., but Luciferianism is more of a blanket term for the much more ancient Babylonian mystery religions which go back much further in the worship of satan under his many, many names.
You do know that at least 2 of those people on your list didn't worship satan and neither do their followers, right? Maybe I am misunderstanding you. Maybe you aren't meaning they outright worshiped satan but rather satan has misled them covertly or something.

ETA- also "Satanists" don't actually worship satan. I know it's waaay confusing.

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Old 05-01-2008, 05:28 PM
 
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You do know that at least 2 of those people on your list didn't worship satan and neither do their followers, right? Maybe I am misunderstanding you. Maybe you aren't meaning they outright worshiped satan but rather satan has misled them covertly or something.

ETA- also "Satanists" don't actually worship satan. I know it's waaay confusing.
I'm not sure who you're referring to? Hubbard? Hubbard was a well-documented satanist. Yes, outright worship of him. Plenty of info availble on that out there. Read Arnie Lerma's website for a good start - very well documented.

ETA: Here's a link to Arnie's site to a well-known interview with Hubbard's son where he extensively discusses his father's satanic worship in their house. (warning: immodest image at top of article)

http://www.lermanet.com/scientologyn...rview-1983.htm

Excerpt:

Quote:
Hubbard: Also, I've got to complete this by saying that he thought of himself as the Beast 666 incarnate.


Penthouse: The devil?


Hubbard: Yes. The Antichrist. Alestair Crowley thought of himself as such. And when Crowley died in 1947, my father then decided that he should wear the cloak of the beast and become the most powerful being in the universe.


Penthouse: You were sixteen years old at that time. What did you believe in?


Hubbard: I believed in Satanism. There was no other religion in the house! Scientology and black magic. What a lot of people don't realize is that Scientology is black magic that is just spread out over a long time period. To perform black magic generally takes a few hours or, at most, a few weeks. But in Scientology it's stretched out over a lifetime, and so you don't see it. Black magic is the inner core of Scientology --and it is probably the only part of Scientology that really works. Also, you've got to realize that my father did not worship Satan. He thought he was Satan.
Also, this book discusses Hubbard and Parsons' (mis)adventures together:

Sex and Rockets: The Occult World Of Jack Parsons
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Old 05-01-2008, 06:31 PM
 
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It seems from my quick googling that some of the information about LeVey and Mansfield from the site Stacy linked may be inaccurate.

Quote:
LEGEND: Jayne Mansfield, Hollywood sex symbol and actress, was a card-carrying Satanist and had an affair with ASL.

REALITY: Publicity agent Tony Kent, an associate of Ed Webber, arranged the meeting between Mansfield and ASL as a publicity stunt. ASL was smitten with the actress. Mansfield, who made no secret of her many affairs, denied knowing ASL intimately, and no associate of hers has ever confirmed any supposed romance with ASL. In a 1967 interview she said, "He had fallen in love with me and wanted to join my life with his. It was a laugh." According to ASL's publicist Edward Webber, Mansfield would ridicule her Satanic suitor by calling from her Los Angeles home and seductively teasing him while her friends listened in on the conversation. ASL's public claims that he had an affair with Mansfield began only after Mansfield's death in an automobile accident, which he also claimed was the result of a curse he had placed on her lover Sam Brody.

SOURCES: Edward Webber (interview by Aquino 6/2/91); interview with Mansfield quoted in Jayne Mansfield by May Mann, Pocket Books, 1974.
http://alleeshadowtradition.com/aslv.html

I don't know how accurate this site is, either, but just wanted to note it.
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Old 05-01-2008, 06:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ChasingPeace View Post
It seems from my quick googling that some of the information about LeVey and Mansfield from the site Stacy linked may be inaccurate.



http://alleeshadowtradition.com/aslv.html

I don't know how accurate this site is, either, but just wanted to note it.
Well, it would certainly be odd to pose for a photo of a satanic ritual with LaVey if she didn't "mean it."
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Old 05-01-2008, 06:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChasingPeace View Post
It seems from my quick googling that some of the information about LeVey and Mansfield from the site Stacy linked may be inaccurate.



http://alleeshadowtradition.com/aslv.html

I don't know how accurate this site is, either, but just wanted to note it.
Yeah it all seems pretty conspiracy/cult theory to me in an outlandish sense. I don't put a lot of stock into all those satan/cult theories out there about various people.

Maggie, blissfully married mama of 5 little ladies on my own little path. homeschool.gif gd.gifRainbow.gif
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