ordaining women = instant excommunication - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 48 Old 05-30-2008, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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i heard on the radio this morning that the vatican issued a decree on the ordination of women (today? yesterday? not sure). it has never been allowed, but just for clarification, now any attempt to ordain a female priest will result in immediate excommunication of the woman and the bishop who tries to ordain her.

i'm not catholic, but this is a concern i have with the church i was raised in and currently bring my kids to, for lack of a better alternative. it's just kind of a bummer.
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#2 of 48 Old 05-30-2008, 01:17 PM
 
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I personally have no problem with not allowing women to be priests.

Married to DH 7 years and have three fantastic kiddos! DS 6, DD 4, and DS 2 ...... lo and behold another is on the way!

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#3 of 48 Old 05-30-2008, 01:27 PM
 
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I found this article

http://www.catholic.org/internationa...y.php?id=28093

We are kinda limited in talking about it in Spirit due to this being a support only forum.
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#4 of 48 Old 05-30-2008, 01:28 PM
 
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It's one of the main reasons that I knew from the time I was 7 years old that I would get out of the catholic church the minute I could.
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#5 of 48 Old 05-30-2008, 01:29 PM
 
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This would get more discussion in Religious Studies.

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#6 of 48 Old 05-30-2008, 01:30 PM
 
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Maybe the OP wants a support only thread? Another thread can be started in Religious Studies for those that want to debates the issue.
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#7 of 48 Old 05-30-2008, 01:50 PM
 
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The Catholic church is having such a hard time finding enough men to be priests that eventually they will either have to stop requiring celibacy or accept women. I think I will see it in my lifetime.
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#8 of 48 Old 05-30-2008, 01:57 PM
 
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Personally, I think the Church needs to actively work on helping young men discern a calling to the priesthood. It's a lot harder in this culture and I think many young men don't get the support they need.

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#9 of 48 Old 05-30-2008, 02:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by homewithtwinsmama View Post
The Catholic church is having such a hard time finding enough men to be priests that eventually they will either have to stop requiring celibacy or accept women. I think I will see it in my lifetime.

The Church will never allow ordination of women. It's certainly possible that celibacy could be dropped, however. That's a disciplinary guideline, not doctrine as male priesthood is. I personally prefer celibate priests.


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Personally, I think the Church needs to actively work on helping young men discern a calling to the priesthood. It's a lot harder in this culture and I think many young men don't get the support they need.
Agreed.
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#10 of 48 Old 05-30-2008, 02:22 PM
 
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This is one of the MANY reasons I'm not Catholic.
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#11 of 48 Old 05-30-2008, 02:26 PM
 
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The Church will never allow ordination of women. It's certainly possible that celibacy could be dropped, however. That's a disciplinary guideline, not doctrine as male priesthood is. I personally prefer celibate priests.


A note on the whole "celibate priest" discussion. It is an amazing amount of work and on-call time to be a parish priest. My bil is one and he dedicates his every waking moment to parishioners/prayer. I think it would be incredibly difficult to balance that and being married/having children.

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#12 of 48 Old 05-30-2008, 03:04 PM
 
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I'm an Orthodox Christian (raised Catholic). The Orthodox will ordain married men (you have to be married BEFORE you're ordained a deacon, otherwise, if you're ordained a celibate and want to get married later, you have to resign your ordination). MOST of our parish priests are married. Yes, it can be tough on the family, but in some cases, it can be easier.

One friend of mine was a parish priest in a small-town Orthodox parish. He was able to watch the kids during the day when his wife was at work, so no need for daycare. Not sure what he did when it came to hospital/sick calls (probably just got a babysitter for that time)/

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#13 of 48 Old 05-30-2008, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
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oops! yes, i guess this might not be the correct forum, because i can see how it could become a debate and/or hurt feelings. it was just a news item that reminded me of my own struggle right now to figure out a place where i fit.

at one point, dh and i decided it was okay to tell our kids, "no church is perfect, and we disagree with x, y and z, but we go here because of the good things about it like a, b and c." now i'm really questioning whether i can consider myself a member of a church that bars women from higher levels of leadership (and robs its members of the opportunity to be led by women), among other things.

if this thread ends up being moved, my apology for the poor choice of where to post! it's just that i participate on this board, so this is naturally where i posted. also, my apologies to the catholic mamas on the board - i know this board is to be a safe place for support, and my raising of this issue isn't meant to be offensive. i hope there are no hurt feelings.
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#14 of 48 Old 05-30-2008, 04:24 PM
 
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It's the Catholic Church's teaching and if these Bishops and Women think that they are above the Church and Jesus Christ, then they should just leave.

I see no problem with this..

And since they won't leave, then they will be excommunicated for pretending to be ordained.

The Catholic Church is not the only church that doesn't ordain women.
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#15 of 48 Old 05-30-2008, 04:36 PM
 
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A note on the whole "celibate priest" discussion. It is an amazing amount of work and on-call time to be a parish priest. My bil is one and he dedicates his every waking moment to parishioners/prayer. I think it would be incredibly difficult to balance that and being married/having children.
It's really no different at all than being the pastor of an active Protestant church. They seem to largely be able to balance their duties and have families.
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#16 of 48 Old 05-30-2008, 04:42 PM
 
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And this is why this cradle Catholic is now Episcopalian.
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#17 of 48 Old 05-30-2008, 05:07 PM
 
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OP, no worries! I think PPs were just trying to ascertain whether you had wanted this thread to be support only for *you* or whether it was an open discussion and you meant to post it in RS
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It is an amazing amount of work and on-call time to be a parish priest. My bil is one and he dedicates his every waking moment to parishioners/prayer. I think it would be incredibly difficult to balance that and being married/having children.
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#18 of 48 Old 05-30-2008, 05:21 PM
 
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A note on the whole "celibate priest" discussion. It is an amazing amount of work and on-call time to be a parish priest. My bil is one and he dedicates his every waking moment to parishioners/prayer. I think it would be incredibly difficult to balance that and being married/having children.
Praying for him!

Yes, It would be difficult. Many moons ago, I was the bookeeper/secretary for our small, yet growing, Presbyterian church. I watched our minister, with a new infant, wife suffering from severe PPD, struggling financially to support his family, be smashed and bashed by the church members because he was around 9am getting into the office. Needless did they know that he had been at the hospital the night before until midnight. He also took call as chaplain at the hospital which meant, later then midnight MVAs and well, I watched him struggle, I saw his own faith crushed by individuals' reactions to him not being able to lead his sheep..


There is debate on both sides of this issue...but I really do see the positive side of celibacy and the priest hoood...especially after witnessing the other side as well..
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#19 of 48 Old 05-30-2008, 06:01 PM
 
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The Vatican has ordained married Anglican and IIRC Lutheran priests that have chosen to become Catholic. Also don't the Eastern Rite Catholic parishes ordain married priests as that was their tradition?
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#20 of 48 Old 05-30-2008, 06:17 PM
 
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My great uncle was part of the Byzanite Rite and he was married.

I should explain. I never mean it wasn't possible to have married priests. Celibacy is tradition (while male priesthood is doctrinal) i just think it is a good idea. In my home diocese, there is no shortage of priests because they are very good about nurturing vocations and promoting a stewardship way of life.

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#21 of 48 Old 05-30-2008, 07:05 PM
 
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As for the comment that other ministers seem to be able to handle marriage and ministry well, then I don't think you know what priest do all day! At the very least, they have 3-4 Masses on Sunday, 1 on Saturday, 2 Monday-Friday. That's not counting any that have missions they have to travel to! In my area, priests for larger towns will do 2 Masses at their home parish, then travel to 2-3 smaller towns to say Mass.

That's not counting all the other stuff they do every day to maintain the church and counseling the parishners, etc.

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#22 of 48 Old 05-30-2008, 07:33 PM
 
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As for the comment that other ministers seem to be able to handle marriage and ministry well, then I don't think you know what priest do all day! At the very least, they have 3-4 Masses on Sunday, 1 on Saturday, 2 Monday-Friday. That's not counting any that have missions they have to travel to! In my area, priests for larger towns will do 2 Masses at their home parish, then travel to 2-3 smaller towns to say Mass.

That's not counting all the other stuff they do every day to maintain the church and counseling the parishners, etc.
1. The Orthodox do NOT have a tradition of daily Mass, such as the Catholic do, at least in the parishes. Probably different in monasteries.

We have Saturday evening Great Vespers (1 hour), Sunday Divine Liturgy (1:30-2 hours) in my OCA parish. Some parishes do Matins combined with Vespers (called the All-Night Vigil) on Saturday, which adds at least another hour. Other parishes will do Matins on Sunday morning before Liturgy. Aside from feast day services, Saturday evening and Sunday morning are it for services, aside from Great Lent, when there are often 2-4 additional services a week (aside from the first week of Great Lent and Holy Week, when there are services every day).

Priests will make themselves available for Confession before/after Vespers on Saturday evening, but it varies as to how many Confessions they will hear.

My priest, Fr. A, has a parish with members that are spread over parts of THREE counties. Due to this he spends a LOT of time on the road for hospital/nursing home visits. He's said recently that he's on the road minimum for 1 hour (roundtrip) for even 1 visit.

SOME Orthodox priests will help out a struggling missions, in addition to their regular parish, but that is NOT the norm.

Aside from this, there are things with the diocese (based in my city), as well as the local Orthodox clergy association. Fr. A also counsels parishioners and others who come to him.

In addition, he has NO office help. In many Orthodox parishes, there is no office staff. Fr. A. does the weekly bulletin, the monthly (or bimonthly, depending on the time of year) newsletter, plus maintains the parish's website (it's pretty basic, but he will update the calendar and add any event photos), and handles any correspondence/email he receives concerning the parish, from inquirers, etc. There's also sermon preparation (he preaches for about 15 minutes on Sundays, about the same on feast days). We have a lay catechist who is the primary instructor for people converting, but Fr. A. also gets involved in their preparation. The treasurer pays the bills and maintains the books, but Fr. A does everything else. His wife has a 9-5 office job. They have one daughter in college and the other is in high school. Fr. A's dad is also a priest in our area. Fr. A is also very handy and is known for doing minor repairs around the church, although since the parish built a new church three years ago, there's probably less for him to do that way than there used to be. He lives about 15 miles from the church, so he works out of his home. There's no reason for him to drive to the church everyday, especially with gas well over $4/gallon is our area.

That was a long way of saying - married priests (for the Orthodox) / ministers (for the Protestants) have the same duties - all clergymen do, but a major difference is that the Orthodox (as well as Protestants) don't have the parochial tradition of services every day of the week, such as Catholics do with daily Mass. The Orthodox also have only ONE Divine Liturgy (Eucharist) on Sunday. You cannot have more than one on the same altar with the same priest. Our tradition and canons forbid it.

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#23 of 48 Old 05-30-2008, 07:35 PM
 
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Also forgot to add - the Byzantine Catholics in the United States are NOT allowed to have married priests. This goes back more than 100 years. That is why a large number of Byzantine Rite Catholics became Orthodox in the early 20th Century.

ETA: The Orthodox don't ordain women either.

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#24 of 48 Old 05-30-2008, 08:04 PM
 
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Is it really a shock that women can't be ordained? hasn't this always been doctrine in the RC church? I would assume any time someone blows off doctrine they would be excommunicated.





and this is off topic but . . . .

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Aside from feast day services, Saturday evening and Sunday morning are it for services, aside from Great Lent, when there are often 2-4 additional services a week (aside from the first week of Great Lent and Holy Week, when there are services every day).

Priests will make themselves available for Confession before/after Vespers on Saturday evening, but it varies as to how many Confessions they will hear.
this varies by parish. We have a minimum of three services a week: Wed is usually Paraklesis or something else, Saturday vespers and Sunday Orthos/Liturgy. If liturgy is served another day during the week (not unusual)there will be a Vespers service the night before and usually an Orthos service directly preceding Liturgy. And occasionally misc. prayer services through out the week. During holy week there are 2-3 services a day. Confession is heard whenever it is needed and fr is available. Plus he handles all the other responsibilities of the church (we too have no staff).

I have to say knowing his family and his wife and loving them and wanting them to have time with him makes me often hesitate before calling him. I can definitely see the logic behind the tradition of unmarried clergy. How ever it also stands to reason that if clergy were allowed to marry there would be more clergy with which to split the responsibilities . . . . .

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#25 of 48 Old 05-30-2008, 08:15 PM
 
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I have to say knowing his family and his wife and loving them and wanting them to have time with him makes me often hesitate before calling him. I can definitely see the logic behind the tradition of unmarried clergy. How ever it also stands to reason that if clergy were allowed to marry there would be more clergy with which to split the responsibilities . . . . .
True.

My uncle is a permanent Deacon in the RC Church. He is married (although, if his wife died, he would not be allowed to remarry) and can do pretty much everything a priest can do except consecrate the Eucharist and hear confessions. He can preside over weddings, do baptisms, hospital visits... i think that more diocese will probably go to permanent Deacon programs before they start letting priests be married. It seems like a good solution.

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#26 of 48 Old 05-30-2008, 08:20 PM
 
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I have to say knowing his family and his wife and loving them and wanting them to have time with him makes me often hesitate before calling him.
OT, but not really...this is why I love email. Fr. A is often very busy on Sunday. So if I have a question about something, I'll usually just do it via email. I know (from when he sends emails) that he usually checks emails around 9 am. So if it's something I need an answer on same day, I just make sure to send it before 9. He has a regular time where he does computer stuff. It's VERY rare if I call him.

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#27 of 48 Old 05-30-2008, 10:19 PM
 
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As for the comment that other ministers seem to be able to handle marriage and ministry well, then I don't think you know what priest do all day! At the very least, they have 3-4 Masses on Sunday, 1 on Saturday, 2 Monday-Friday. That's not counting any that have missions they have to travel to! In my area, priests for larger towns will do 2 Masses at their home parish, then travel to 2-3 smaller towns to say Mass.

That's not counting all the other stuff they do every day to maintain the church and counseling the parishners, etc.
Thanks, but I was raised catholic until I was able to become self-supporting. I know quite well what catholic priests do. I also know quite well what ministers do.
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#28 of 48 Old 05-30-2008, 11:40 PM
 
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oops! yes, i guess this might not be the correct forum, because i can see how it could become a debate and/or hurt feelings. it was just a news item that reminded me of my own struggle right now to figure out a place where i fit.

at one point, dh and i decided it was okay to tell our kids, "no church is perfect, and we disagree with x, y and z, but we go here because of the good things about it like a, b and c." now i'm really questioning whether i can consider myself a member of a church that bars women from higher levels of leadership (and robs its members of the opportunity to be led by women), among other things.
No hurt feelings here! I would like to say though, that I don't at all agree that women are barred from higher levels of leadership or that its members are robbed of opportunities to be led by women. All women are called to serve the Church and many do so in some very remarkable and influential ways.

I think it is natural to see that there are no women priests, bishops, et cetera and automatically feel that women are second-class citizens. It makes sense to our intellectual selves that we have to be "equal" to men, meaning to do the same thing as them. And while this may be entirely valid in the secular world, I don't feel it at all applies to the spiritual realm for me personally.

I would also like to add that priest and bishops serve the laity. It is a life of service. And some of the most influential women in my lives have been nuns.

I know I'm not being coherent but I'm tired and off to bed.

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#29 of 48 Old 05-31-2008, 01:45 AM
 
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Thanks, but I was raised catholic until I was able to become self-supporting. I know quite well what catholic priests do. I also know quite well what ministers do.
:
My husband's church current church has 2 Sunday services, Saturday services, services throughout the week at a school and nursing home, he does counciling, visitation, teaches classes throughout the week, makes housecalls, coordinates people with community resouces, and a million other things. I don't think that Catholic priests are inherantly busier then protestant clergy.
It is a tough balancing act, though. There are days/ weeks that my kids and I don't really see him.

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#30 of 48 Old 05-31-2008, 03:50 PM
 
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Is it really a shock that women can't be ordained? hasn't this always been doctrine in the RC church? I would assume any time someone blows off doctrine they would be excommunicated.
That is what I was assuming as well. And I have no problem with them doing it, their church, their business.

What I do wonder though, why do some here feel (besides "because the bible says so") that women ought not be preists? Or is the reason people feel this way soley because of scripture. I'm just curious.

I can't think of a reason a woman isn't as suited as a man.
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