Jesus from the Line of David? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#61 of 188 Old 11-26-2008, 04:51 AM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks, smeis, you said it fine.

H'P, didn't mean to make you stressed. No worries.
merpk is offline  
#62 of 188 Old 11-26-2008, 05:27 AM
 
Smokering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 8,613
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Quote:
Loving the Jews means accepting them as Jews, NOT trying to make them Christians or save them. You cannot profess to love something that you're trying to eliminate.
I find this puzzling. Do you believe that Jews who become Christians have ceased to be Jewish? Certainly the Jewish Christians I know define themselves as just that--Jewish Christians--and would be rather offended to hear that their Jewishness had been 'eliminated' upon conversion.

If decomposition persists please see your necromancer.

Smokering is online now  
#63 of 188 Old 11-26-2008, 11:49 AM
 
smeisnotapirate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Jerusalem, Israel
Posts: 5,852
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokering View Post
I find this puzzling. Do you believe that Jews who become Christians have ceased to be Jewish? Certainly the Jewish Christians I know define themselves as just that--Jewish Christians--and would be rather offended to hear that their Jewishness had been 'eliminated' upon conversion.
Once a Jew, always a Jew. You'll hear that ad nauseum.

They're Jewish, but it doesn't mean they are continuing on in our traditions. Our tradition is waiting for a messiah with clear guidelines. Jesus didn't follow them. So your friends are picking and choosing which parts of Judaism to follow and which parts of Christianity to follow. It doesn't make them less Jewish (because it's a status conferred to you at birth or at conversion), but the life they're living is in direct conflict with what Judaism stands for.

Does that make sense? I'm afraid it doesn't.

Sara caffix.gif, Keith 2whistle.gif, Toby 6/08superhero.gif, Nomi 4/10blahblah.gif, Mona 1/12 hammer.gif

 

Mama of three, lover, student rabbi, spoonie, friend, musician, narcoleptic, space muffin, pretty much a dragon. Crunchy like matzoh.

smeisnotapirate is offline  
#64 of 188 Old 11-26-2008, 04:32 PM
 
Smokering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 8,613
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
No, I get what you're saying.

I've been thinking a lot about the Jewish requirements for the Messiah thing, and I think at heart it comes down to a presuppositional debate. (What doesn't, really?). This is a bit vague and tentative, but bear with me... I see a lot of parallels between the Jewish/Jewish Christian thing and the Catholic/Protestant thing; ultimately, it's a matter of authority. As Protestants reinterpreted the Scriptures in a way they felt was more accurate, but which denied the teachings of Tradition, Christian Jews reinterpret the Jewish Scriptures in a way which does not deny the text itself, but the rabbinical interpretations. As most Jews agree that Tradition is authoritative, Christian Jews therefore come across as heretical or 'un-Jewish'--picking and choosing, as you say--and I think that's where the problem lies, deeper and more fundamental than simply differing over the interpretation of any specific passage. Would you agree?

If decomposition persists please see your necromancer.

Smokering is online now  
#65 of 188 Old 11-26-2008, 04:59 PM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Am tired and grumpy. All forewarned ...



Sorry, but the Christian 'reinterpretation' of the Jewish Scriptures most certainly denies the text itself. It totally reinterprets it. Which is fine. Read it however you like. Enjoy. But don't go ahead and insist that it's a Jewish interpretation ... oh, but without those evil Pharisees (aka those rabbinical guys) messing it all up.




Next: Smokering, Jews who have become Christian retain their ethnic Jewishness, but they are no longer practicing any form of Judaism at all.

They are Christians.

The fact is that Christian missionary groups that are out to convert Jews very specifically have as their methodology language that is meant to fool uneducated Jews into thinking that this Christianity is just another form of Judaism. It's deception, dishonest, and disgusting. All those years of convert-or-die tactics only went so far, and there are still all those Jews around, so let's try another tac, shall we?


So the use of the term "Christian Jews" offends most Jews.












If someone is Christian, and so happy with and in love with Jesus, then be proud of it and be honest about it. You're Christian.


If you were so proud of your Jewishness, then you would have stayed Jewish.




The problem doesn't lie with "Christian Jews coming off as unJewish" ... it lies with Christians who were born as Jews praying to/deifying a person. And anthropomorphizing G!d kh'v'sh. That's the problem.

This is no "reinterpretation of Judaism." This is directly antithetical to Judaism.



I have no doubt that Jesus' first followers ... who honestly could be called Christian Jews, because they weren't praying to Jesus but were merely following him/his example, they were his khasidim ... were interpreting things from a place of knowledge of Judaism. But every generation since, once the man was deified ... it's not the same. It's not similar. It's not "a reinterpretation," or a difference of opinion.



It's a different religion. Period.

And Jesus is the messiah for the Christians. He did not ever fit any of the requirements that the Jews have for their own messiah. So he's not it.



Too tired to be polite. Sorry if it's an overbearing post. Not meaning to be overbearing. Just can't help it sometimes.
merpk is offline  
#66 of 188 Old 11-26-2008, 05:03 PM
 
smeisnotapirate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Jerusalem, Israel
Posts: 5,852
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
In a way, I see what you're saying. Except that the rabbinic texts are just as important as the Torah itself and by rejecting the rabbinic texts and accepting the Christian part of the bible, they are now Christian. Even Reform Jews, who will tell you two ways to Sunday that halacha (Jewish law) isn't binding, will agree that rabbinic texts are authoritative. If you take the rabbinic texts away, you fundamentally change the relationship between G-d and the Jew.

And this is now WAY off topic. But yes, a great amount of "Jewishness" gets eliminated when you eliminate the authority of the rabbinic texts.

Sara caffix.gif, Keith 2whistle.gif, Toby 6/08superhero.gif, Nomi 4/10blahblah.gif, Mona 1/12 hammer.gif

 

Mama of three, lover, student rabbi, spoonie, friend, musician, narcoleptic, space muffin, pretty much a dragon. Crunchy like matzoh.

smeisnotapirate is offline  
#67 of 188 Old 11-26-2008, 05:10 PM
 
smeisnotapirate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Jerusalem, Israel
Posts: 5,852
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I just wanted to add: There is NOTHING wrong with being Christian. Having been one once, I'm a little offended on both levels by the J4Js. Christianity has SO much to offer! I think they'll find their own spiritually meaningful traditions in becoming fully Christian (whatever denomination) that match with their theology.

Sara caffix.gif, Keith 2whistle.gif, Toby 6/08superhero.gif, Nomi 4/10blahblah.gif, Mona 1/12 hammer.gif

 

Mama of three, lover, student rabbi, spoonie, friend, musician, narcoleptic, space muffin, pretty much a dragon. Crunchy like matzoh.

smeisnotapirate is offline  
#68 of 188 Old 11-26-2008, 05:24 PM
 
Smokering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 8,613
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Quote:
So the use of the term "Christian Jews" offends most Jews.
Even when it's used ethnically--as in, "Christian Scot" or "Christian Pole"? What about the term "secular Jew"--ie, Jews who have even less philosophically in common with Jews than Christian Jews, as they don't believe in God/accept the Tanakh/whatever? Is that also considered offensive or contradictory?
Quote:
This is no "reinterpretation of Judaism." This is directly antithetical to Judaism.
Which is what the Catholics said about Protestants--we have the truth, so you're heretics. Our version of Christianity is correct, so any disagreeing interpretation derived from differing presuppositions isn't Christianity at all, it's heresy; pass the stake. Now, most Catholics no longer believe that, and conversely some Protestants no longer believe that Catholicism is actually Christianity; but the point is, it depends how you define the religion in question. Is it phenomenological--ie, Judaism (or Christianity) is simply the sum of the many, various, contradictory, orthodox and/or heretical practices by any people who define themselves as Jewish (or Christian)? Or is it didactic--Jews (or Christians) believe X, and those who don't believe X therefore aren't Jewish (or Christian)... except, in the case of Judaism, in the ethnic sense?

If the former, then 'Christian Jews' is an appropriate term. If the latter, the problem then becomes defining what, exactly, X is. Is it someone who accepts the rabbinical texts/interpretations as binding? If so (or if not), how is that epistemically justified? Jews who are, to borrow a Protestant term, 'sola scriptura' and do not accept the rabbical texts would claim that they were not eliminating true (didactic) Judaism; simply accretions and human traditions which were not authoritative, though in some cases true or helpful. I'm sure they would agree that they were rejecting a good deal of phenomenological Judaism; but that's a different animal. (Or, you know... is it?).

Now it may be that I'm completely off-base about looking at this through a Reformation perspective; but I'm interested to hear some arguments either way, because the parallels intrigue me. Does anyone have any information regarding Jews and epistemology, or Jews and presuppositional theology?

If decomposition persists please see your necromancer.

Smokering is online now  
#69 of 188 Old 11-26-2008, 05:37 PM
 
smeisnotapirate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Jerusalem, Israel
Posts: 5,852
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokering View Post
Now it may be that I'm completely off-base about looking at this through a Reformation perspective; but I'm interested to hear some arguments either way, because the parallels intrigue me.
Yes. Sorry, but you're applying a Christian theory of reform to Judaism. It just doesn't work that way. :

We have our own way of reformation. If you want to hear the closest to the "protestant" version of Judaism, check out Reform or Reconstructionist Judaism. Even those two branches are not reforming in the way of the Christian presuppositional apologetics.

I want to clear up something else, too. WE DO NOT HAVE THE TRUTH. Nope. Judaism is not for everyone. Judaism is for Jews. There is not a Truth in Judaism for everyone. There is Truth in Judaism for Jews. In that way and in many ways, Christians and Jews come from things in totally opposite ways.

Sara caffix.gif, Keith 2whistle.gif, Toby 6/08superhero.gif, Nomi 4/10blahblah.gif, Mona 1/12 hammer.gif

 

Mama of three, lover, student rabbi, spoonie, friend, musician, narcoleptic, space muffin, pretty much a dragon. Crunchy like matzoh.

smeisnotapirate is offline  
#70 of 188 Old 11-26-2008, 05:46 PM
 
Smokering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 8,613
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Quote:
I want to clear up something else, too. WE DO NOT HAVE THE TRUTH. Nope. Judaism is not for everyone. Judaism is for Jews. There is not a Truth in Judaism for everyone. There is Truth in Judaism for Jews. In that way and in many ways, Christians and Jews come from things in totally opposite ways.
That kind of begs the question, though. What is 'Truth in Judaism for Jews'? Again, you need to define what constitutes Judaism first. For some self-defined Jews (Christian Jews), 'Truth' includes a view of the Messianic prophecies which is interpreted according to the New Testament, not according to rabbinic traditions. Other Jews say that they're wrong. So, on what criteria? Ultimately I think that question must be answered by presuppositional apologetics--which is not a Christian concept, incidentally, it's a method of defending any worldview (religious or otherwise) by logic. Any evidential arguments will be based on presuppositions, so it saves time and a lot of confusion and talking at cross-purposes to address those presuppositions. Specifically, epistemology is a huge issue here, just as it is in Protestant/Catholic debate. Saying 'we' have a certain method of reformation is also kind of begging the question--who is 'we'? Jews, but not Christian Jews? Aren't you avoiding the question by not including them--like, say, a medieval Catholic saying of Protestantism "That's not how Christians learn about the Bible"--excluding Protestants from that category, therefore rendering their argument somewhat circular?

I'm not trying to be rude here: I appreciate you answering these questions.

If decomposition persists please see your necromancer.

Smokering is online now  
#71 of 188 Old 11-26-2008, 07:08 PM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokering View Post
Even when it's used ethnically--as in, "Christian Scot" or "Christian Pole"? What about the term "secular Jew"--ie, Jews who have even less philosophically in common with Jews than Christian Jews, as they don't believe in God/accept the Tanakh/whatever? Is that also considered offensive or contradictory?
]


No. That's incorreect.

Secular Jews have far more in common with religious Jews than with Christians. Because Christians pray to a person/deified a person, which is totally antithetical to Judaism and is actually one of the worst sins you could commit, Jewishly speaking.

And secular Jews don't.

Better not to pray at all than to pray to a person, is how the Jewish reasoning goes.




And another reason why the term isn't offensive is that Jews were never slaughtered in the name of secularism.

(And please, no one throw Stalin at me for that one ... that was Jews being slaughtered in the name of communism. Communism is a very specific thing, secularism is a different very specific thing.)






Quote:
Now it may be that I'm completely off-base about looking at this through a Reformation perspective; but I'm interested to hear some arguments either way, because the parallels intrigue me. Does anyone have any information regarding Jews and epistemology, or Jews and presuppositional theology?
There is no "information regarding Jews and presuppositional theology," because presup/theology depends on the 'truth' of the Christian bible. And round and round we go.

And in re epistemology, Jews have no interest in convincing nonJews that "Judaism is truth." The whole need to convert/convince is a Christian concept.

As far as Jewish theology is concerned (and as smeis said upthread) Judaism is true for Jews. Islam is true for Muslims. And so on and so on.
Even in the messianic age (the *Jewish* understanding of the messianic age), the world will not be all Jewish. Everyone will acknowledge G!d, but everyone will still be following their own truths. Judaism does *not* hold that everyone will suddenly want to be Jewish, or that everyone will convert to Judaism, or that nonJews will disappear, or any of the supercessionist stuff.



So Jewish epistemology is within a Jewish context, for Jews. It has no relevance to Christians or to Christian theology.
merpk is offline  
#72 of 188 Old 11-26-2008, 07:33 PM
 
Smokering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 8,613
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Quote:
Secular Jews have far more in common with religious Jews than with Christians.
OK. got it. But isn't, say, atheism equally antithetical to Jewish thinking? (Not that all secular Jews are atheists, obviously).

Quote:
There is no "information regarding Jews and presuppositional theology," because presup/theology depends on the 'truth' of the Christian bible. And round and round we go.
As I said in my last post, that's not true. Presuppositional apologetics can be practiced by Christians, Jews, atheists, Marxists, secular humanists; anyone with a worldview, and everyone has a worldview.

If decomposition persists please see your necromancer.

Smokering is online now  
#73 of 188 Old 11-26-2008, 11:36 PM
 
TzippityDoulah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: DC area
Posts: 3,731
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by smeisnotapirate View Post
I want to clear up something else, too. WE DO NOT HAVE THE TRUTH. Nope. Judaism is not for everyone. Judaism is for Jews. There is not a Truth in Judaism for everyone. There is Truth in Judaism for Jews. In that way and in many ways, Christians and Jews come from things in totally opposite ways.

okay this is something that always trips me up. I know plenty of jewish people that feel their version IS THE TRUTH.... but I digress that point b/c it isn't really what I have a question on. Maybe you mean something other than what I am interpreting by this... and if so please do explain.

but if something is TRUTH, it is truth for everyone. (the meaning of truth being TRUTH, no feelings/beliefs/or preferences) maybe you don't desire/want or even care if we all agreed with you. and perhaps jews don't proselytize people into their religion. but would they not feel that truth is truth. meaning that if their God is the God... isn't that truth for everyone? whether or not they care others to recognize it, it would still be truth, right?

transtichel.gifMom of three - (2.5 yrs, 7yrs, and 11yrs). Birthing Doula, editor, and wife to my soulmate. I've had a c/s, hospital VBAC, UC and not yet decided what I'll do about this next little one

TzippityDoulah is offline  
#74 of 188 Old 11-27-2008, 09:10 AM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
See, H'P & Smokering, that's the problem. You're coming at this from a Christian perspective. Which says "We're Right and Jesus Is the Only Way to Heaven and You Must Be Saved."

Meaning, you see your truth as TRUTH writ large, as truth that the world has to accept or else be left behind, or whatever else it is that's supposed to happen to all us unbelievers.





Jews see Jewish truth as truth for Jews. Jews made a covenant with Our G!d. Our relationship with G!d is just that, ours. That's the Jewish truth. Any Jewish 'presuppositional apologetics' begins and ends with the truth for Jews of the Jewish covanental relationship with Our G!d. That's our circular-illogical-logic.



Your relationship with your deity is just that. Yours. Your truth. You're welcome to it. Just don't try to force it on us, or try to fool us into thinking that it's the same as ours. 'Cuz it's not. It's yours. And that's your circular-illogical-logic's start point and end point.




And round and round and round it goes.
merpk is offline  
#75 of 188 Old 11-27-2008, 12:01 PM
 
Nickarolaberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Running away...
Posts: 4,558
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
To the extent that the the Jewish 'truth' has any relevance for anyone else, it's only this: the message of monotheism. One G-d.

The rest of the Torah -- written and oral (and we believe they are both Divinely given, notwithstanding Christian aversions to rabbis) -- is about the Jewish covenant with G-d and our relationship to Him. Including the ways in which we live in order to make that relationship real, and to bring holiness into the world (i.e. the mitzvot). That covenant is immutable and permanent -- and the mitzvot are for the Jews. Only.

 "Now bid me run, and I will strive with things impossible." (William Shakespeare -- Julius Caesar)

Nickarolaberry is offline  
#76 of 188 Old 11-27-2008, 02:18 PM
 
mamabadger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,840
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickarolaberry View Post
To the extent that the the Jewish 'truth' has any relevance for anyone else, it's only this: the message of monotheism. One G-d.

The rest of the Torah -- written and oral (and we believe they are both Divinely given, notwithstanding Christian aversions to rabbis) -- is about the Jewish covenant with G-d and our relationship to Him. Including the ways in which we live in order to make that relationship real, and to bring holiness into the world (i.e. the mitzvot). That covenant is immutable and permanent -- and the mitzvot are for the Jews. Only.
Sorry - not trying to be confrontational, but this is the part that always confuses me.
There is only one God, and that (I assume) is the God worshipped by the Jews. That God has also revealed certain teachings and laws to His people. Correct so far?
So...if this truth is only truth for the Hebrew people, not for everybody, what about other nations who believe, for example, in more than one deity? Are their beliefs, including the belief in a different deity or multiple gods, just as true as the Jewish belief in God and His revelations? Is polytheism true "for them?" Or is it untrue, but they are left to believe lies because God has not chosen them to know the truth? Or does Judaism believe that there is no absolute truth?
Also, how does this relate to converts to Judaism? Or should conversion not occur, ideally?
mamabadger is offline  
#77 of 188 Old 11-27-2008, 02:27 PM
 
TzippityDoulah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: DC area
Posts: 3,731
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
MerpK - I'm not coming from this from ANY prospective but human curiosity. I was asking an opinion... not giving one. I was humbly asking for thoughts on this. you know... seriously... it's hard to even ask you things b/c you seem like you just want to roll your eyes towards everything people say or ask. it makes it difficult to understand your position if you constantly put words in our mouths. I have this feeling you only want to roll your eyes, not to come to any point of understanding with another human being who isn't you. this is quite difficult to work with. if that's what you desire, go for it... but it's not going to stop others from asking questions to the other jewish people here... most of which happily and respectfully answer our questions without feeling the need to throw our own religious beliefs back in our face.

you say "believe what you want, I don't care". but your words and tone say otherwise. so... there really has been no way to make you happy. people have been being very respectful (and will continue to be) but if you just desire contention, it will remain. the ball is in your court there.

anyhow, I COMPREHEND that jewish law is a covenant with *your* God. I get what you are saying. but that wasn't my question at all. my QUESTION (not my assumption) was to ask what the jewish thought is on truth. and of course you can only answer form you prospective an I realize all jews will not likely agree on every single last thing... but regardless.

I'm coming from a logical thought process on this one (and with a heart of meekness, trying to better understand) - if i said "this God is the real God, but only for me". what does that imply? a few posts back (or perhaps another thread) it was said of the jewish belief that it was looked down on christianity b/c we diefy a person and not a God. that it can't be the same b/c Jesus isn't a God. But if God is subjective, than anything/anyone can be a God. and the only requirement for a God to be a God is that we say he is a God (just like you say yours is a God for example) so... what I am asking is this:

do you (and in the jewish culture, NOT just you) believe your God is THE ONLY REAL GOD? or just the jewish God - one of many Gods?


iBTW, the question (though you are totally open to answer b/c it's an open forum) was clearly addressed to smeisnotapirate, not to you personally.)

transtichel.gifMom of three - (2.5 yrs, 7yrs, and 11yrs). Birthing Doula, editor, and wife to my soulmate. I've had a c/s, hospital VBAC, UC and not yet decided what I'll do about this next little one

TzippityDoulah is offline  
#78 of 188 Old 11-27-2008, 02:42 PM
 
TzippityDoulah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: DC area
Posts: 3,731
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickarolaberry View Post
To the extent that the the Jewish 'truth' has any relevance for anyone else, it's only this: the message of monotheism. One G-d.

The rest of the Torah -- written and oral (and we believe they are both Divinely given, notwithstanding Christian aversions to rabbis) -- is about the Jewish covenant with G-d and our relationship to Him. Including the ways in which we live in order to make that relationship real, and to bring holiness into the world (i.e. the mitzvot). That covenant is immutable and permanent -- and the mitzvot are for the Jews. Only.
we aren't asking baout the mitzvot, we're asking about the thoughts or belief of the God in general. or at least I am... I'm curious not if jews think Christians should follow their rules and laws... but if they think the truth of God is truth for all. but that God chose the jews as His people and therefore it's their God.

to break it down even more:
  • Is the jewish God only the "jewish God"?
  • Is He God for/of all?
  • Is He the one true God but others need not worship or follow him?
  • Is He The God of all, but His chosen people are Jews?
  • Is He creator of all. but only the Jews have the Privilege to know him more personally?
  • Is He the creator of only the Jews and if so who created the others? (or does it not matter?)
  • If He created all, do not the others matter to Him? Why would He only wish to be acknowledge by only one sect of His creation?
    Is the Jewish God equal to other Gods in the jewish eyes?

now I realize some of these questions may not have answers. I'm okay with that. I'm asking for the answers that can be answered. OR if the question is off base and needs to be adjusted, you could do so. I do have more questions depending on the answers i get. some questions will be met with certain answers, and some i might have follow ups for.

I appreciate anyone taking the time to break this down for me. I have jewish friends, but i am seeing that there is much difference in the once I know and the ones who are on here, which makes me very curious to have a bigger consensus.

and please keep in mind I'm asking with an open mind and heart, not with preconceived notions or to prove anything - only b/c i want to know. I read a lot of jewish interpretation of the Christian religion on here that IS NOT at all accurate, and I know how that makes me feel. so I'm trying to better understand the jews POV. (it burns me up that people think that Christians just want to save the world with their deified person-God and that we give no thought beyond getting people to "heaven"... it's not how it works at all, it's a misunderstanding of our beliefs and traditions completely so I get how bothersome it is...)

transtichel.gifMom of three - (2.5 yrs, 7yrs, and 11yrs). Birthing Doula, editor, and wife to my soulmate. I've had a c/s, hospital VBAC, UC and not yet decided what I'll do about this next little one

TzippityDoulah is offline  
#79 of 188 Old 11-27-2008, 05:08 PM
 
Smokering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 8,613
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Quote:
See, H'P & Smokering, that's the problem. You're coming at this from a Christian perspective. Which says "We're Right and Jesus Is the Only Way to Heaven and You Must Be Saved."
Uh... which part of any of my arguments on this thread has anything to do with that statement?

Quote:
Your relationship with your deity is just that. Yours. Your truth. You're welcome to it. Just don't try to force it on us, or try to fool us into thinking that it's the same as ours. 'Cuz it's not. It's yours. And that's your circular-illogical-logic's start point and end point.
Again, how is this relevant to my arguments? It entirely misses the point, which is that you are defining Judaism to a priori exclude Christian Jews, and I'm interested to know on what epistemological basis you do so. Saying 'us' simply begs the question; as does calling presuppositional arguments 'Christian', which is simply not true. Claiming that truth is relative, likewise, doesn't mean that what you perceive to be truth need have no epistemic foundation.

Also, which argument I presented is circular and how? You seem to be attacking a position I have never espoused. Please respond to me, not to your idea of Christianity as a whole.

If decomposition persists please see your necromancer.

Smokering is online now  
#80 of 188 Old 11-27-2008, 06:47 PM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Smoke, presuppositional theology is *all* circular. It depends upon the assumption of the truth of that which is attempting to be proved. And like I said, Jewish p/t only assumes that the Jewish truth is truth for Jews. Judaism isn't interested in convincing anyone else of its truths.

If other posters are, well, that's their choice.

And *I'm* not the one "defining Judaism to a priori exclude" Christians who are ethnically Jewish. Judaism is defined by ALL Jews ... from the most Reform to the Progressive to the Orthodox ... as excluding Christianity. Has for 2000 years, in fact. So don't pin that rejection on me.

Believing in the deity of a person, and of Jesus in particular, is 100% antithetical to Judaism. And by "believing in Jesus," a Jew cuts themselves off from the religion of Judaism. They have excluded themselves through their own personal choice to become Christian.





The term "Christian Jew" is used by scholars to refer to Jesus' early followers 2000 years ago. Am totally cool with history. The term now, like the term "completed Jew," is used to fool Jews into thinking that Christianity/belief in Jesus is just another Jewish option. Which it isn't. Am totally not cool with deception.














Henny, I'm not rolling my eyes at all. Am actually rather fond of the rolling-eyes smilie. Use it often. Haven't used it here once. Or my other fave, the staring eyes. If I was rolling my eyes, you'd actually see it.

Am making my points bluntly. They are not what you want to hear, well, sorry about that. But they're ... truth. Mine.

So sorry that I'm not as polite as smeis. She's not a NY'er.






From the RS sticky: "This is where the tough questions may be asked. Please do not take it personally when someone questions your own particular faith or belief system or posts an interpretation or opinion that does not support your belief."

And it follows that tough questions sometimes get tough answers.












Part of the whole difficulty with this discussion is that the nonbelief of Jews in Jesus insults all of Christendom. So no matter what I say, and no matter how sweetly I try to say it, it will still be offensive to you.

Sorry. It is what it is.
merpk is offline  
#81 of 188 Old 11-27-2008, 07:19 PM
 
Smokering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 8,613
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Quote:
Smoke, presuppositional theology is *all* circular. It depends upon the assumption of the truth of that which is attempting to be proved.
Oh, right. Well yes, presup. theology is necessarily circular. So what? Circularity is an informal fallacy, not a formal one; where circularity is philosophically necessary, it is justified.
Quote:
And *I'm* not the one "defining Judaism to a priori exclude" Christians who are ethnically Jewish. Judaism is defined by ALL Jews ... from the most Reform to the Progressive to the Orthodox ... as excluding Christianity. Has for 2000 years, in fact. So don't pin that rejection on me.
Do you see the irony here? 'ALL Jews' already presupposes that Christian Jews aren't 'real' Jews--because Christian Jews do define themselves as Jews, hence the term (*drumroll*) 'Christian Jews'... making your statement that 'all Jews' exclude Christian Jews from the category Judaism false. So you are still begging the question; as you are by saying
Quote:
Believing in the deity of a person, and of Jesus in particular, is 100% antithetical to Judaism.
It's only antithetical to 'Judaism which believes the deity of a person is antithetical to Jewish thought'; which you have yet to demonstrate is equivalent to 'all Jewish thought'. Which I don't believe can be answered without appealing to epistemology.

I can't force you to have a presuppositional discussion on this issue, or even to defend your beliefs at all; but this is Religious Studies, and I am very interested in studying the very basic question: What constitutes true (didactic), essential Judaism from a presuppositional point of view? So if anyone would like to discuss that, reply in this thread or PM me; I'd be most appreciative.

If decomposition persists please see your necromancer.

Smokering is online now  
#82 of 188 Old 11-27-2008, 08:16 PM
 
eilonwy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Lost
Posts: 15,406
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokering View Post
What about the term "secular Jew"--ie, Jews who have even less philosophically in common with Jews than Christian Jews, as they don't believe in God/accept the Tanakh/whatever?
Wow, quite a few assumptions there, don'tcha think? I've known a great many secular Jews in my life, and not one of them has more in common philosophically with "Christian Jews" than with actual Jews. Then of course, you're assuming that secular Jews don't belive in God/accept the Tanach/whatever; Not necessarily (or even often, in my experience, the case). I kind of understand why you might believe that second point, but I'm at a loss as to how you came to the first one.

Quote:
Is that also considered offensive or contradictory?
A secular Jew is a person of Jewish origin who does not actively practice Judaism or anything else. The overwhelming majority of the time, such individuals refer to themselves as "Jewish" or "nonreligious." Just like Christians who call themselves "Christians" because their grandmother took them to church every week before she passed away when they were nine... except that Jews won't fully disavow such people, while many Christians will.

Quote:
Is it phenomenological--ie, Judaism (or Christianity) is simply the sum of the many, various, contradictory, orthodox and/or heretical practices by any people who define themselves as Jewish (or Christian)? Or is it didactic--Jews (or Christians) believe X, and those who don't believe X therefore aren't Jewish (or Christian)... except, in the case of Judaism, in the ethnic sense?
The latter.

Quote:
If the former, then 'Christian Jews' is an appropriate term. If the latter, the problem then becomes defining what, exactly, X is. Is it someone who accepts the rabbinical texts/interpretations as binding? If so (or if not), how is that epistemically justified? Jews who are, to borrow a Protestant term, 'sola scriptura' and do not accept the rabbical texts would claim that they were not eliminating true (didactic) Judaism; simply accretions and human traditions which were not authoritative, though in some cases true or helpful.
Jews who are "sola scriptura" would not fall into the latter category of subscribing to X, so there's no question here. It's pretty clear cut.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokering View Post
That kind of begs the question, though. What is 'Truth in Judaism for Jews'? Again, you need to define what constitutes Judaism first.
Wasn't this already covered?

Quote:
For some self-defined Jews (Christian Jews), 'Truth' includes a view of the Messianic prophecies which is interpreted according to the New Testament, not according to rabbinic traditions. Other Jews say that they're wrong. So, on what criteria?
You're confusing ethnic Jews with Jews who practice Judaism *and* secular Jews. "Christian Jews" are usually ethnically Jewish (not always) but they are NOT practicing Judaism. PERIOD. Nobody with half a clue is going to argue otherwise. Belief in Jesus as the Messiah precludes the practice of Judaism. Doesn't stop you from being ethnically Jewish, but it does mean that you're not practicing Judaism. Gets you an automatic disqualification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokering View Post
OK. got it. But isn't, say, atheism equally antithetical to Jewish thinking? (Not that all secular Jews are atheists, obviously).
I'd go so far as to say that most secular Jews aren't atheists, actually. And no, atheism is not necessarily antithetical to Jewish thinking in my opinion. It can be, but it doesn't have to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HennyPenny View Post
okay this is something that always trips me up. I know plenty of jewish people that feel their version IS THE TRUTH....
The truth for me, not the truth for you. There is no "universal truth," by Jewish thought. That's just plain silly.

Quote:
but if something is TRUTH, it is truth for everyone.
Okay, try it this way. If I say, "Going grocery shopping is difficult without help," it's the absolute truth for me because I'm 5'1" and I can't get things off of the top shelf (or the second to top... or even the third, if I have to reach to the back... you get the idea ). It might not be true for you, though, if you're 5'10" and have never given a second thought to getting things off of the top shelf. Does that make it less true? No... just means that what's true for me isn't true for you. I have a very hard time finding vehicles that are comfortable to drive. I also have a hard time chewing Tootsie Rolls... whatever, I could go on and on like this. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact-- it's just not *universal* fact. Make sense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HennyPenny View Post
you say "believe what you want, I don't care". but your words and tone say otherwise. so... there really has been no way to make you happy. people have been being very respectful (and will continue to be) but if you just desire contention, it will remain. the ball is in your court there.
Amy is understandably distressed by repeating herself ad nauseum. However, it's not so much "Believe what you want, I don't care" that she's trying to impart as it is "Believe what you want and LEAVE ME AND MINE OUT OF IT." Attempts to define people practicing Christianity as Jews and deliberate attempts at subterfuge (e.g. Jews for Jesus) kind of grate on all of us, as we've had to deal with them throughout our lives-- regardless of where we've lived or how observant we've been.

Quote:
my QUESTION (not my assumption) was to ask what the jewish thought is on truth. and of course you can only answer form you prospective an I realize all jews will not likely agree on every single last thing... but regardless.
See above. And one of the neat things about Judaism is that we don't have to agree on every single thing-- only a few key points. As one of my friends put it, "When two Christians had an argument about text or practices, they went separate ways and each started his own church. When two Jews had an argument about text or practices, they argued about it for a while and then wrote it all down and moved on."

Quote:
if i said "this God is the real God, but only for me". what does that imply?
That your relationship with God is unique to you. What else?

Quote:
a few posts back (or perhaps another thread) it was said of the jewish belief that it was looked down on christianity b/c we diefy a person and not a God. that it can't be the same b/c Jesus isn't a God. But if God is subjective, than anything/anyone can be a God.
Let me see if I'm following you here-- The fact that Jews state that their understanding of Judaism is not meant to apply to everyone else means that the Jewish definition of God is subjective? That would be where you're having the difficulty, then. God isn't subjective, not at all. Individual relationships with God are subjective, of necessity, but God isn't subjective... and people can't be God. Worshipping a person as God is 100% antithetical to Jewish understanding of God.

Quote:
and the only requirement for a God to be a God is that we say he is a God (just like you say yours is a God for example) so... what I am asking is this:

do you (and in the jewish culture, NOT just you) believe your God is THE ONLY REAL GOD? or just the jewish God - one of many Gods?
Again, by Jewish thought, God is God-- it's not a subjective deal-- it's the *laws*, the halachos, that don't apply to everyone else. The Torah is God's covenant with the Jews, it's got nothing to do with what anyone else does or doesn't believe about God. To answer your question, Jews believe that yes, HaShem is "the only real God." That's not to say that everyone should believe and worship in the same way that Jews do, though. Make sense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HennyPenny View Post
  • Is the jewish God only the "jewish God"?
  • Is He God for/of all?
  • Is He the one true God but others need not worship or follow him?
  • Is He The God of all, but His chosen people are Jews?
  • Is He creator of all. but only the Jews have the Privilege to know him more personally?
  • Is He the creator of only the Jews and if so who created the others? (or does it not matter?)
  • If He created all, do not the others matter to Him? Why would He only wish to be acknowledge by only one sect of His creation?
    Is the Jewish God equal to other Gods in the jewish eyes?
  • Nope.
  • Yup.
  • Define "worship" and "follow."
  • Yes.
  • No; Judaism is all about relationships with God being *personal*. Righteousness is defined a little differently in Judaism than it is in Christianity. for example: We're taught that Noach was "a righteous man in his time." Compared to Avram or Moshe, Noach was a real shmuck in the righteousness department... but in his generation, he was top notch-- and he was rewarded for that. Noach was before there were "a chosen people," by the by. He was certainly able to have a personal relationship with God.
  • He'd be the creator of all, if you swing that way.
  • Everyone matters, but not everyone has to do the same things to get in good with Him. Like so: For Avram to take in guests was a big deal, because he wasn't raised with that mentality. For Lot to do it was *expected*, because he *was* raised with that mentality.

    Jews believe that there are 613 halachos that Jews have to keep (well, you know, when they apply to you-- not everything will ), and there are seven that everyone else has to keep in order to be considered righteous. Remembering shabbos and keeping it holy? I'm supposed to be doing that, because I'm Jewish and I know better. You? If you're not Jewish, God doesn't expect it of you. It's like... Hm. If you grow up in New York, you're taught to tip for everything. If you grow up in Lancaster, it won't occur to you to tip for anything but pizza or chinese food deliveries... and nobody will expect it of you. A child of 10 is expected, in New York, to know that they need to give a taxi driver a tip. That same child raised in Lancaster wouldn't be expected to have a clue.
  • God is God-- HaShem, above all. But what other gods are you talking about?

Rynna, Mama to Bean (8), Boobah (6), Bella (4) and Bear (2)
eilonwy is offline  
#83 of 188 Old 11-27-2008, 09:08 PM
 
Smokering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 8,613
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Quote:
Wow, quite a few assumptions there, don'tcha think? I've known a great many secular Jews in my life, and not one of them has more in common philosophically with "Christian Jews" than with actual Jews. Then of course, you're assuming that secular Jews don't belive in God/accept the Tanach/whatever; Not necessarily (or even often, in my experience, the case). I kind of understand why you might believe that second point, but I'm at a loss as to how you came to the first one.
You misread. I said that Christian Jews would seem to have more in common with practicing Jews than secular Jews would (on the grounds that they do, by definition, believe in such things as a monotheistic God, accepting the Tanakh as authoritative, etc); not that secular Jews would have more in common with Christian that with practicing Jews.

The rest of your post which is aimed at me still doesn't answer my question. Can you define 'X' (ie. the necessary components of Jewish belief) for me from a presuppositional--specifically epistemological--point of view? I'm aware that nearly all Jews believe that accepting Jesus as the Jewish Messiah is heresy to the point of not being Judaism--I want to know why, from a presuppositional perspective. Where does authority lie--in the Tanakh, in the rabbinical writings, in the one interpreted by the other, in individual study and conscience of one or the other?

Also, you are confusing me. Can you explain this statement:
Quote:
And no, atheism is not necessarily antithetical to Jewish thinking in my opinion. It can be, but it doesn't have to be.
in light of:
Quote:
# Is the jewish God only the "jewish God"?
# Nope.
# Is He God for/of all?
# Yup.
I simply don't get how it is considered so utterly un-Jewish to worship a person as God (especially considering Christians don't believe He was 'just' a person but divine), but not necessarily un-Jewish to disbelieve in God entirely, when you've just stated that it is Jewish thought to believe in God who is God for everyone. How does that work?

You also say
Quote:
There is no "universal truth," by Jewish thought. That's just plain silly.
but also
Quote:
God isn't subjective, not at all. Individual relationships with God are subjective, of necessity, but God isn't subjective
So don't Jews consider "God objectively exists" to be a universal truth? You can't say "Something objectively exists for me, but not for you"--that denies the very meaning of the word 'objectively'. I understand Jews have a definite attitudinal prejudice against claiming universal truths, proselytising etc; but that's different from an epistemic belief that universal truth doesn't exist at all.

If decomposition persists please see your necromancer.

Smokering is online now  
#84 of 188 Old 11-27-2008, 10:50 PM
 
eilonwy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Lost
Posts: 15,406
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokering View Post
You misread. I said that Christian Jews would seem to have more in common with practicing Jews than secular Jews would (on the grounds that they do, by definition, believe in such things as a monotheistic God, accepting the Tanakh as authoritative, etc); not that secular Jews would have more in common with Christian that with practicing Jews.
Still not true. "Christian Jews" are unlikely to have more in common with practicing Jews than do secular Jews, in terms of belief.

Quote:
The rest of your post which is aimed at me still doesn't answer my question. Can you define 'X' (ie. the necessary components of Jewish belief) for me from a presuppositional--specifically epistemological--point of view? I'm aware that nearly all Jews believe that accepting Jesus as the Jewish Messiah is heresy to the point of not being Judaism--I want to know why, from a presuppositional perspective.
It's not "nearly all," it's Judaism as a whole. I have never encountered an individual who was a) Jewish and b) knew anything about what Judaism entailed who *did* accept Jesus as the Jewish Messiah. It is heresy by definition, and "heresy to the point of not being Judaism" seems redundant, to me.

Necessary components of Jewish belief? As in, "If you believe X, you're Jewish?" That's a difficult question to answer, mostly because believing "X," in and of itself, won't make you Jewish, and because you can certainly be Jewish without believing "X." There are beliefs and practices which are contradictory to Judaism, but that doesn't mean that there are Jews who don't believe/practice thusly. You can ask, "Is belief in X Jewish?" or "Is belief in X acceptable under Jewish law?" but again... Believing in something specific isn't what makes one Jewish (nor does failing to believe necessarily preclude Judaism). Some beliefs are not Jewish-- like belief that Jesus was the Messiah, or that he was God incarnate. If you are ethnically Jewish but you believe that Jesus was the Messiah, you're not a "Christian Jew" or a "Jew for Jesus," you're a person of Jewish descent who is practicing Christianity.

(I'm not really sure what you mean by presuppositional or epistemological in this context-- it sounds to me as though you're working from no presuppositions at all? Or asking me to work from Christian ones? )


Quote:
Where does authority lie--in the Tanakh, in the rabbinical writings, in the one interpreted by the other, in individual study and conscience of one or the other?
Authority for what?

Quote:
Also, you are confusing me.
Me? Confusing? I'm shocked...


Quote:
Can you explain this statement:

And no, atheism is not necessarily antithetical to Jewish thinking in my opinion. It can be, but it doesn't have to be.

in light of:


# Is the jewish God only the "jewish God"?
# Nope.
# Is He God for/of all?
# Yup.
Jewish law applies to Jews whether or not they believe in God. The ethics apply, the actions apply. It's kind of sad to not feel a personal, spiritual connection with HaShem in my opinion and to continue going through all those motions, but it's not required-- it's your personal life, your neshama that's missing out on the connection with HaShem. You're not forced to believe, but you are absolutely compelled to act. There are Jews who live pretty exclusively in the ethical realm, rather than the spiritual one-- it's their decision. That explains the atheism.. though I'm not sure if it explains "in light of" the other bit.

Quote:
I simply don't get how it is considered so utterly un-Jewish to worship a person as God (especially considering Christians don't believe He was 'just' a person but divine), but not necessarily un-Jewish to disbelieve in God entirely, when you've just stated that it is Jewish thought to believe in God who is God for everyone. How does that work?
Worshiping false gods = expressly forbidden. Worshipping no gods = doesn't come up. Again, I'm talking about ethics and lifestyle-- one can believe and see the necessity of acting according to halacha without having the personal connection with HaShem. It strikes me (personally) as a little depressing, but it can certainly be done and some find it satisfying enough. The whole "not just a person" bit is antithetical to Jewish thought. It's sort of like saying that Jesus was a living idol. Totally against the rules. It also contradicts the idea of Moshiach, who's supposed to be a *person* (nothing about Godhead in there).


Quote:
You also say
There is no "universal truth," by Jewish thought. That's just plain silly.

but also

God isn't subjective, not at all. Individual relationships with God are subjective, of necessity, but God isn't subjective

So don't Jews consider "God objectively exists" to be a universal truth? You can't say "Something objectively exists for me, but not for you"--that denies the very meaning of the word 'objectively'. I understand Jews have a definite attitudinal prejudice against claiming universal truths, proselytising etc; but that's different from an epistemic belief that universal truth doesn't exist at all.
This is difficult because lines are being crossed between what Jews believe and what beliefs are Jewish. To that end, I'll try again when I don't have a headache.

Rynna, Mama to Bean (8), Boobah (6), Bella (4) and Bear (2)
eilonwy is offline  
#85 of 188 Old 11-28-2008, 11:48 AM
 
1littlebit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 4,189
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I know i am coming into this late so i apologize if i am totally off base. i am interested in the term 'Christian Jew'

I am going to try and work this out in my head please correct me where i am wrong

Judaism is a religion and an ethnicity right?
Being of Jewish ethnicity does not mean you are part of the jewish faith right?
If that is correct it would be possible for someone to be ethnically jewish but religiously Christian?
It would not, however, be possible to be religiously Jewish and religiously Christian.
If you are Christian you believe that Jesus is the messiah... if you believe that Jesus is the messiah you are not Jewish because Jews do not believe that Jesus is the messiah... they are mutually exclusive. You cannot just say I want to be Christian and Jewish so I am a Jew who believes that Jesus is the messiah... it doesn't work that way anymore then i could say I am Christian but i don't believe Jesus is my savior.



is any of that correct or even make any sense?
1littlebit is offline  
#86 of 188 Old 11-28-2008, 01:20 PM
 
TzippityDoulah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: DC area
Posts: 3,731
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Merpk:

I am fully aware of what the standards of rules are for this thread. believe me, we all are. no need to try and point that out.

what I am about to say I want to be understood is being quite civil but honest. it is *not* to start an argument, put anyone down or hurt anyone's feelings. it is just the truth of the matter to settle what seems to be a big issue right now.

Merkp, you are not hurting people's feelings... that isn't the issue. and it isn't the issue that you disagree with us. truly, we could care less is a jew, or muslim or some guy on the streets disagree with us on our christian beliefs and heritage. seriously, we know what we believe much like you know what you believe. it doesn't change much of anything.

but again... *you* brought all that up. not us.you are the one you decided for us what we think, how we think and why we think. and then to top it all off off nicely have put us down for thinking those ways. please do not on one hand assume you know what we believe while on the other hand refusing to believe anyone else could possibly understand your beliefs.

we play fair. we ask questions. we are being sincere... and yet all we get is deflecting. truly, if you do not care to let us know your truths... then the option is clear: don't. let someone else answer. no need to ruffle your feathers over us. if you don't care what we think, don't answer our questions and leave it for those who do care to. I'm sure we could handle figuring out all our questions from another source. please, do not go out of your way here. nobody is aiming to make your life miserable, uncomfortable and irritating. nobody is downing you or your thoughts and nobody is telling you what you believe. and nobody here is an idiot. jews and non jews alike are allowed to ask questions and should be able to do so without having to dodge bullets. we logged into a common website to find this info - nobody is emailing *you* personally.

you have managed again to comment but not answer *any* questions, but only to tell us we are wrong but that you need not tell us why b/c we don't need to know. um? ok. we get it, you think we're not as enlightened as you. perhaps not as privileged. nobody is arguing that. like i said... feel free not to answer any of our questions and i assure you nobody will ask *you* any if you don't want them too.

we get it. we get what you think of us. believe me, we aren't terribly concerned. form now on, please fell free not to answer any of my questions and leave them for someone who wants to. no hard feelings.


Quote:
Originally Posted by merpk View Post
Smoke, presuppositional theology is *all* circular. It depends upon the assumption of the truth of that which is attempting to be proved. And like I said, Jewish p/t only assumes that the Jewish truth is truth for Jews. Judaism isn't interested in convincing anyone else of its truths.

If other posters are, well, that's their choice.

And *I'm* not the one "defining Judaism to a priori exclude" Christians who are ethnically Jewish. Judaism is defined by ALL Jews ... from the most Reform to the Progressive to the Orthodox ... as excluding Christianity. Has for 2000 years, in fact. So don't pin that rejection on me.

Believing in the deity of a person, and of Jesus in particular, is 100% antithetical to Judaism. And by "believing in Jesus," a Jew cuts themselves off from the religion of Judaism. They have excluded themselves through their own personal choice to become Christian.





The term "Christian Jew" is used by scholars to refer to Jesus' early followers 2000 years ago. Am totally cool with history. The term now, like the term "completed Jew," is used to fool Jews into thinking that Christianity/belief in Jesus is just another Jewish option. Which it isn't. Am totally not cool with deception.














Henny, I'm not rolling my eyes at all. Am actually rather fond of the rolling-eyes smilie. Use it often. Haven't used it here once. Or my other fave, the staring eyes. If I was rolling my eyes, you'd actually see it.

Am making my points bluntly. They are not what you want to hear, well, sorry about that. But they're ... truth. Mine.

So sorry that I'm not as polite as smeis. She's not a NY'er.






From the RS sticky: "This is where the tough questions may be asked. Please do not take it personally when someone questions your own particular faith or belief system or posts an interpretation or opinion that does not support your belief."

And it follows that tough questions sometimes get tough answers.












Part of the whole difficulty with this discussion is that the nonbelief of Jews in Jesus insults all of Christendom. So no matter what I say, and no matter how sweetly I try to say it, it will still be offensive to you.

Sorry. It is what it is.

transtichel.gifMom of three - (2.5 yrs, 7yrs, and 11yrs). Birthing Doula, editor, and wife to my soulmate. I've had a c/s, hospital VBAC, UC and not yet decided what I'll do about this next little one

TzippityDoulah is offline  
#87 of 188 Old 11-28-2008, 01:30 PM
 
TzippityDoulah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: DC area
Posts: 3,731
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
to everyone else who replied,

thanks!! I will read later. about to go out with the family and I will reply later. I skimmed it but i wanna actually take the time to really read it.

just had to point out one thing... again. if anyone is "tired" of pointing things out "ad nauseum"... please don't. just don't respond. or don't read the thread if it bothers you. and don't let it ruin your day. obviously we still wanted clarity. if someone wanted to know more, and someone felt like answering more that would be great. but nobody should be rolling eyes or feeling put off. it's truly on yourself if you decide to join this conversation or not. just like it is for me. if anyone is feeling tired of rexplaining b/c they think we're too dense to comprehend or just not able to get the obvious... well just remember, there is just as much likelihood of fault on the teacher as the student when he fails to understand. it goes both ways.

transtichel.gifMom of three - (2.5 yrs, 7yrs, and 11yrs). Birthing Doula, editor, and wife to my soulmate. I've had a c/s, hospital VBAC, UC and not yet decided what I'll do about this next little one

TzippityDoulah is offline  
#88 of 188 Old 11-28-2008, 01:39 PM
 
eilonwy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Lost
Posts: 15,406
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by HennyPenny View Post
just had to point out one thing... again. if anyone is "tired" of pointing things out "ad nauseum"... please don't. just don't respond. or don't read the thread if it bothers you. and don't let it ruin your day. obviously we still wanted clarity. if someone wanted to know more, and someone felt like answering more that would be great. but nobody should be rolling eyes or feeling put off. it's truly on yourself if you decide to join this conversation or not. just like it is for me. if anyone is feeling tired of rexplaining b/c they think we're too dense to comprehend or just not able to get the obvious... well just remember, there is just as much likelihood of fault on the teacher as the student when he fails to understand. it goes both ways.
It's not as simple as that, but explaining would take all day and would absolutely put this thread far beyond the limits of this forum. I will leave it at this: In cases where the majority is trying to learn about the minority, the onus of education should fall, primarily, on said majority-- not the other way around. Folks in the minority often come to resent it. You have to understand that we've been hearing these things all our lives and they have not always been asked in the spirit of trying to learn something new. If you'd like, I'll try to explain it better via PM, but it's much more complicated than you're making it out to be. It's also pretty antithetical to Jewish thought to avoid questions, regardless of the spirit in which they're asked. Judaism teaches, consistantly, that everyone deserves an answer to an asked question even if the short of it is, "You're not one of us, have a nice day." So just avoiding the thread is really, really difficult and really goes against what many of us have been taught all our lives.

Rynna, Mama to Bean (8), Boobah (6), Bella (4) and Bear (2)
eilonwy is offline  
#89 of 188 Old 11-28-2008, 06:18 PM
 
Smokering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 8,613
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Quote:
It's not "nearly all," it's Judaism as a whole. I have never encountered an individual who was a) Jewish and b) knew anything about what Judaism entailed who *did* accept Jesus as the Jewish Messiah. It is heresy by definition, and "heresy to the point of not being Judaism" seems redundant, to me.
Perhaps you have never encountered one, but that does not mean they do not exist. There are intelligent, fluent-in-Hebrew, brought-up-in-the-Jewish-faith Jews who have come to believe Jesus is the Messiah promised to the Jews. It's not that they don't know anything about Judaism, although obviously you'll say they came to the wrong conclusions. My contention is that they likely came to the Christian understanding of the Messiah because they were working from different presuppositions to most Jews; specifically, the presupposition that God's authoritative truth is found in the Tanakh, but that the rabbinical interpretations (Jewish traditions) are not necessarily true and/or authoritative interpretations. Now, you'll say "But belief in the authority/truth of the rabbinical interpretations is a fundamental part of Judaism" (I think--yes, no?). So my question is, on what epistemic grounds is it considered an essential component of the Jewish faith? In other words, what is the Jewish epistemological first principle?

This is all a somewhat tentative theory, but I think it's important for any type of discussion about 'Christian Jews'. For example, you say:
Quote:
The whole "not just a person" bit is antithetical to Jewish thought. It's sort of like saying that Jesus was a living idol. Totally against the rules. It also contradicts the idea of Moshiach, who's supposed to be a *person* (nothing about Godhead in there).
The Christian/Christian Jewish answer to that would be that the Biblical texts themselves do not claim that the Messiah had to be 'just' a person, or that worshipping a person who was part of the God who claimed worship for himself only was blasphemy. So presumably it was rabbinical interpretation which dogmatised those beliefs; in which case, it is of supreme importance whether those interpretations are authoritative, and on what grounds. (Just as when a Catholic defends a doctrine to a Protestant by saying 'The Church teaches X', the Protestant says 'So what? Show it to me from the Bible'. Different standards of authority).

It's particularly interesting to me because of the claim that Jews allow for a lot of questioning of traditional teachings, and tend to put their differences aside and not get hung up on doctrinal disagreements. Again, that obviously only extends so far, as you a priori exclude Christian Jews from the Jewish category. Which again leads me to the conclusion that the differences must be presuppositional, not doctrinal.
Quote:
Worshiping false gods = expressly forbidden. Worshipping no gods = doesn't come up.
Yes, but atheism isn't simply not worshipping God, or not having a personal connection to God; it's not believing that God exists. Which must mean believing the Tanakh is fictitious.

If decomposition persists please see your necromancer.

Smokering is online now  
#90 of 188 Old 11-29-2008, 12:10 PM
 
eilonwy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Lost
Posts: 15,406
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokering View Post
Perhaps you have never encountered one, but that does not mean they do not exist. There are intelligent, fluent-in-Hebrew, brought-up-in-the-Jewish-faith Jews who have come to believe Jesus is the Messiah promised to the Jews. It's not that they don't know anything about Judaism, although obviously you'll say they came to the wrong conclusions.
I'm sure that many people I've never encountered exist, but I can't speak to them. All I can speak to is my experience and my understanding, and as far as I'm concerned what you're describing makes no sense. As an aside, I'd like to meet all these people... where the heck are they hiding?

Quote:
My contention is that they likely came to the Christian understanding of the Messiah because they were working from different presuppositions to most Jews; specifically, the presupposition that God's authoritative truth is found in the Tanakh, but that the rabbinical interpretations (Jewish traditions) are not necessarily true and/or authoritative interpretations. Now, you'll say "But belief in the authority/truth of the rabbinical interpretations is a fundamental part of Judaism" (I think--yes, no?). So my question is, on what epistemic grounds is it considered an essential component of the Jewish faith? In other words, what is the Jewish epistemological first principle?
Firstly, I'm not sure how you can work from the presupposition that the Tanach is God's authoritative truth and still come to the conclusion that Jesus was Moshiach. It's just not there. Secondly, yes, the Oral Torah is as fundamental to Judaism as is the written. Why are you asking for the first principle if you already know this to be the case?

Quote:
This is all a somewhat tentative theory, but I think it's important for any type of discussion about 'Christian Jews'. For example, you say:
Quote:
The whole "not just a person" bit is antithetical to Jewish thought. It's sort of like saying that Jesus was a living idol. Totally against the rules. It also contradicts the idea of Moshiach, who's supposed to be a *person* (nothing about Godhead in there).
The Christian/Christian Jewish answer to that would be that the Biblical texts themselves do not claim that the Messiah had to be 'just' a person, or that worshipping a person who was part of the God who claimed worship for himself only was blasphemy.
Adding to/changing the Torah = BIG nono. If it's God's authoritative truth, who the hell are we to add to it? The Torah says that Moshiach will be a person. It does say that God can't be a person, too-- God is above all, so being a person is contradictory to the nature of God. Worshipping any person would absolutely be considered blasphemy according to the Torah (how could it not?!). A person claiming to be God? That's pretty explicitly against the rules.

Quote:
So presumably it was rabbinical interpretation which dogmatised those beliefs; in which case, it is of supreme importance whether those interpretations are authoritative, and on what grounds.
Actually, that stuff's straight from the Written Law. The Oral Law is authoritative, but again it's not necessary to prove this point.

Quote:
It's particularly interesting to me because of the claim that Jews allow for a lot of questioning of traditional teachings, and tend to put their differences aside and not get hung up on doctrinal disagreements. Again, that obviously only extends so far, as you a priori exclude Christian Jews from the Jewish category. Which again leads me to the conclusion that the differences must be presuppositional, not doctrinal.
In terms of practicing Judaism there are definately doctrinal differences, but what actually constitutes Judaism (the presuppositions, I suppose) is not generally in question. I'm online on Shabbos, but I'm not about to tell you that it's permitted according to Halacha-- it's not, plain and simple.

Quote:
Yes, but atheism isn't simply not worshipping God, or not having a personal connection to God; it's not believing that God exists. Which must mean believing the Tanakh is fictitious.
Right-- atheism means believing that God doesn't exist. It doesn't preclude the necessity of acting according to the Law, though, nor does it directly follow that the Tanach is fictitious. You missed a few steps there. Why is the Tanach necessarily fictitious if one doesn't believe in God? One need only interpret things a little differently, or recognize the truth of the words/spiritual meaning without choosing to put faith into a higher authority to see the necessity of acting according to the standards laid out in the Torah. I get that Christianity doesn't work if you're an atheist, but Judaism can. Like I said before, it's probably kind of sad, but it's certainly not impossible.

Rynna, Mama to Bean (8), Boobah (6), Bella (4) and Bear (2)
eilonwy is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off