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Old 12-04-2011, 02:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I've just got some rye bread rising today. It's on the third rise, so I'm going to shape into a loaves in a bit and get it into the oven so it's ready to go with dinner. I forgot I wanted to add some caraway to it this time though... maybe I'll just sprinkle some on the top of the loaves as a garnish... 


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Old 12-04-2011, 11:04 PM
 
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Anyone working with sourdough? I am toying with the idea of getting a starter going.

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Old 12-05-2011, 07:07 AM
 
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Originally Posted by cristeen View Post

 

OOF - I was wrong, it is in fact a Xmas loaf.  Called Swedish Cardamom Wreath, although I believe I just made a braided loaf last time - I don't like dealing with storing wreaths.  I'm going to abbreviate the steps, since i don't feel like typing out the whole thing (half a page).

 

1 pkg yeast

1/4 c warm water

2 1/2 c warm milk

3/4 c butter, melted and cooled

1 egg

1/2 tsp salt

1 c sugar

1 1/2 tsp ground cardamom (IMO, I easily could have used 2 tsp or more, this was a little subtler than I wanted)

7-7.5 c AP flour

 

Dissolve yeast in water.  Add milk, butter, egg, salt, sugar and cardamom.  Gradually beat in about 7 c of flour to stiff dough.  Knead until smooth and satiny (10-20 min).  Turn in a greased bowl, cover and rise until doubled (2 hours).  Punch down and divide into 6.  Roll into 24 inch ropes, braid 3 into a loaf or wreath.  Repeat for 2nd loaf.  Cover and rise until almost doubled (40 min).

 

Bake 350 35-40 minutes or until med brown.  Cool 10 minutes.

 

The recipe also calls for a sugar icing and decorating with candied cherries, but IMO that's overkill.  It's a really soft loaf, makes a great french toast. 

 

If you're testing holiday recipes - my fave book has an entire section on them.  Yugoslavian Potica, Czech Houska, Russian Krendl, Belgian Cramique, German Stollen, Greek Christopomo and the Swedish Cardamom - and that's just the Xmas ones.  Let me know if you want recipes. 


Thanks for taking the time to post the recipe! The ingredient list is similar to the one I have, but slightly different proportions (I used less butter, more egg) and the rise times are different. I was very suspicious when I made it, because of course it failed the finger-poke test after the first rise. The recipe reassured me that it would be fine, that a short rise was all that was needed. I should have listened to my instincts. I also wondered about whether to add the butter at a later point. The magazine recipe also added the milk, butter and egg at the same time. I thought adding the butter separately, like a brioche, might make a difference to the final result. It looks like that isn't necessary for a nice loaf. Next time I try, I'll use your recipe. 

 

Thanks also for your kind offer of other recipes, but I think I'm okay. I'm making Stollen this week. Next week is Birnbrot, a Swiss bread with a dried fruit filling in the middle instead of marzipan and then Danish Kringle the week of Christmas. With the regular loaves I need to bake, that should keep me busy enough. Maybe next year!!  

 

 

 

 

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Old 12-05-2011, 07:11 AM
 
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Anyone working with sourdough? I am toying with the idea of getting a starter going.


I had a starter, generously shared by a friend. I failed to tend it though. The guilt greensad.gif !! I like sourdough though, especially for sandwiches, yum! 

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Old 12-05-2011, 07:37 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree View Post

I had a starter, generously shared by a friend. I failed to tend it though. The guilt greensad.gif !! I like sourdough though, especially for sandwiches, yum! 


Same here... my most recent one perished a few weeks before Thanksgiving. And then I went out and bough a bulk package of instant yeast. :-) 

 


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Old 12-05-2011, 01:02 PM
 
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Anyone working with sourdough? I am toying with the idea of getting a starter going.


 

Not currently, although I have in the past.  I used to bake sourdough twice a week, it was the only bread I ate.  Of course, that also meant that I gained weight like mad, since it was the basis of my diet.  bag.gif

 

I've considered starting a rye sourdough, I even have the whole rye that is needed for it.  But I haven't done it.  It's just a big time commitment, and I'm lazy. 


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Old 12-05-2011, 01:42 PM
 
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Oh so many years ago I made a sourdough starter from a recipe in my Betty Crocker cookbook. Other folks had said how good sourdough was; but at that point I don't think I had ever tasted it. So after several days of doing what I was supposed to do, the "starter" got a liquid on top that looked and smelled somewhat like beer. Apparently that is what it is supposed to do. Coming from a family that didn't drink at all, I thought it had spoiled and threw it out. Duh. I haven't tried it since. I do like the recipe for all whole wheat in the Healthy Bread in 5 minutes a day book. I haven't tried many others. After the first rise at room temp it does a slow rise in the fridge which really helps in developing a good flavor. I think speeding up the rise by keeping the dough very warm tends to "flatten out" the flavor. Sorry I can't think of a better description. I would say if possible leave a lot of time for a cooler rise and make sure it is risen as it should be even if it takes much longer than the recipe says.

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Old 12-09-2011, 10:05 AM
 
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1 1/2 tsp ground cardamom (IMO, I easily could have used 2 tsp or more, this was a little subtler than I wanted)



 

Ok, replying to my own post here...  I made this bread yesterday, baked it off this morning.  Next time I'll boost the cardamom to 2.5 tsp or maybe a full Tbs.  I did 2 tsp in this one (and 1 tsp was fresh ground in my mortar and pestle), and it was still too subtle for me.  The problem is finding the balance between flavor and overkill, since cardamom can be aggressive.  This is a super tender loaf, and I'll warn you to keep an eye on it.  I set my timer for 30 minutes, it went about 32 before I could get to it, and it was a bit overbrown for my taste - it probably could have used a few more minutes to cook some more (it's not underdone, but still a bit moist), but maybe I'll cover it for the last few minutes next time. 

 

 

What I'm wondering about is baking for Xmas.  We're going to be driving up to see family on Xmas Eve - it's a 12 hour drive and we'll be leaving in the wee hours, so we won't get in until late Xmas Eve.  But I would love to bake a couple loaves of this off Xmas morning.  Just not sure how to manage that.  I can make the dough on the 23rd, but then it's going to have to travel in the car with us all day on the 24th.  I can shape it before bed so I can just stick it in the oven on the 25th, but is that too much proofing?  It's not like the inside of the car is going to be cold (it's a hatchback, so no trunk).  Anyone have any thoughts/experience with leaving a yeasted loaf to proof for a day and a half before baking? 


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Old 12-09-2011, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by cristeen View Post

What I'm wondering about is baking for Xmas.  We're going to be driving up to see family on Xmas Eve - it's a 12 hour drive and we'll be leaving in the wee hours, so we won't get in until late Xmas Eve.  But I would love to bake a couple loaves of this off Xmas morning.  Just not sure how to manage that.  I can make the dough on the 23rd, but then it's going to have to travel in the car with us all day on the 24th.  I can shape it before bed so I can just stick it in the oven on the 25th, but is that too much proofing?  It's not like the inside of the car is going to be cold (it's a hatchback, so no trunk).  Anyone have any thoughts/experience with leaving a yeasted loaf to proof for a day and a half before baking? 


You can't really overproof bread. Actually, the more you proof, the better the flavor and texture will be. When I have the time, I like to set my bread for five rises. Seems excessive, but they're really great loaves when I can do it. Also, you can do a long and slow proof in cool temps or the fridge. So if you mix it up on the 23rd and give it a regular warm rise or two and then stick it in the fridge it should be fine until the evening of the 24th when you return. Take it out before you go to bed to shape the loaf and stick it back in the fridge for a long and slow final proof in the fridge. Take it out first thing on Christmas morning, let it come up to room temp and then bake. It should work out just fine.

 

I'm thinking of attempting this method with risen cinnamon rolls myself, since we have similar travel arrangements this year. 

 

ETA - or if you have time on the 23rd, you could parbake and freeze your loaf. Just bake it to within ten minutes or so of being done. Let it cool to room temp and freeze. When you get home on the 24th, put in the fridge to defrost overnight and then bake it for the ten minutes or so it needs Christmas morning. Parbaking makes it easier to freeze, and it won't overbake when you warm it in the oven before serving. I did this with dinner rolls at Thanksgiving and they were great. 


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Old 12-09-2011, 12:40 PM
 
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Ok, replying to my own post here...  I made this bread yesterday, baked it off this morning.  Next time I'll boost the cardamom to 2.5 tsp or maybe a full Tbs.  

 

 

 

The Finnish recipe that I originally tried used 1 tsp. of cardamom for 2 cups flour. It made one small loaf (another knock against that recipe). The flavour was excellent though, well-developed and fully present without being overpowering, if you know what I mean. So for 2 good-sized loaves, a little more than 2 teaspoons of spice sounds about right. 

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cristeen View Post

 

What I'm wondering about is baking for Xmas.  We're going to be driving up to see family on Xmas Eve - it's a 12 hour drive and we'll be leaving in the wee hours, so we won't get in until late Xmas Eve.  But I would love to bake a couple loaves of this off Xmas morning.  Just not sure how to manage that.  I can make the dough on the 23rd, but then it's going to have to travel in the car with us all day on the 24th.  I can shape it before bed so I can just stick it in the oven on the 25th, but is that too much proofing?  It's not like the inside of the car is going to be cold (it's a hatchback, so no trunk).  Anyone have any thoughts/experience with leaving a yeasted loaf to proof for a day and a half before baking? 


Could you freeze the loaves, transport them in a cooler (if you have room) and then let them thaw so they can go in the oven on the 25th? I have not tried this, but I recall a post about it on the 101 Cookbooks blog last year. She did it successfully for cinnamon rolls. She prepped the rolls, placed them in freezer bags with all the air squeezed out, and froze them ahead of Christmas. On Christmas Eve, she let them thaw overnight on the countertop  and then baked them off in the morning for Christmas brunch. I did make the cinnamon rolls without the freezing step and they are tasty.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Old 12-10-2011, 05:01 PM
 
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I am stubborn about baking only 100% whole wheat, but I have yet to perfect it.  Never light enough for our tastes.  I have used ascorbic acid, and I think that helps a little.  Also adding liquid whey seems to help too.  Maybe I will try the mashed potatoes and see what that does.  I have made 100% WW pita that is outstanding using a poolish. And my 100% WW pizza dough seems pretty good.  The sandwich bread needs some help though.  I *know* the perfect loaf exists, I just have to keep trying!



Recipes please!

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Old 12-19-2011, 11:53 AM
 
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No Knead Bread...it's awesome! 

 

The past two weeks have been kind of brutal, so I haven't made any more Christmas breads. An unexpected funeral, a last-minute trip out-of-town, car trouble....all on top of the usual Christmas shopping and social events. I decided it was finally time to try out Jim Lahey's No Knead Bread recipe.

 

I've had the recipe for years, but hesitated for the longest time because I didn't have a good pot to bake it in. Then a few months ago (maybe late summer?), I picked up a knobless Le Creuset casserole on sale at a great price reduction. It doesn't have the phenolic knob handle, so it's safe at the high temperatures needed to bake this bread. After that, my excuses for not trying the recipe are that I like my basic bread recipes and I kind of like to knead dough. So I just didn't get around to trying the No Knead recipe, until this month when I just didn't have time to stay at home and deal with rising bread dough. 

 

Well, I am so pleased with the results! With the first loaf, the crust got a little too dark for my taste. I think my oven may be a little hot, so I've adjusted the timing. Now I'm getting wonderful, tasty loaves with a good crust and crumb. 

 

I'll still make my usual recipes, but now I'll probably bake a loaf of No Knead Bread once a week or so. 

 

 

 

 

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Old 01-19-2012, 08:03 AM
 
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Reviving this thread because I tried a new, very convenient recipe for a Whole Wheat Seed Bread this week. I thought others might be interested. I found it at Rhythm of the Home, Breadmaking for Busy Families by Andrea Belcham.

 

I'm pretty happy with it. It gets a long rise in the refrigerator (up to 8 or 10 hours), so you don't have to hang around for hours, deflating and waiting for multiple rises. It takes about 45 minutes to mix it up, knead it, give it a short rise for 20 minutes, and then shape it and put it in loaf pans. Let it rise all day (at least 3 or 4 hours - I waited about 7 hours) if you like and then bake it when it's convenient. It makes nice whole wheat loaves, more like a sandwich bread than the No Knead Bread. (I'm still making the No Knead Bread and still loving it too.) 

 

 

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Old 01-22-2012, 03:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm thinking about doing some beer bread and a couple of loaves of cinnamon swirl here in a bit... I am so addicted to that cinnamon swirl bread...


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Old 01-23-2012, 02:34 PM
 
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This is my first post in this thread and I haven't had a chance to read all the way through...I have a couple of questions.

 

When I was on mat leave I made all our bread and really enjoyed doing it.  But now I'm back at work and have less time.  This weekend I made a double batch (enough for 4 loaves) but it was a lot of work! (I think I'm inefficient and kneading!  Oh, and out of shape. lol.)  So, here are my questions:

 

If I make a big batch of dough, should I freeze the dough, or bake the bread and freeze it?  Which is better?  If I freeze the dough, should I freeze it before the first rise, or before the second rise?  What should I freeze it in? (I did wax paper then into a ziplock freezer bag).

 

Is there an easier way? 


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Old 01-23-2012, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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This is my first post in this thread and I haven't had a chance to read all the way through...I have a couple of questions.

 

When I was on mat leave I made all our bread and really enjoyed doing it.  But now I'm back at work and have less time.  This weekend I made a double batch (enough for 4 loaves) but it was a lot of work! (I think I'm inefficient and kneading!  Oh, and out of shape. lol.)  So, here are my questions:

 

If I make a big batch of dough, should I freeze the dough, or bake the bread and freeze it?  Which is better?  If I freeze the dough, should I freeze it before the first rise, or before the second rise?  What should I freeze it in? (I did wax paper then into a ziplock freezer bag).

 

Is there an easier way? 


You can freeze either way, but I find I get better results by freezing the baked loaves - but only par-bake them. Take them out of the oven about 10-15 minutes before they're done, let them cool completely, then wrap in either freezer paper or aluminum foil and then put them in zip top bags. Then when you want to eat them, finish baking them for the 10-15 minutes - that way you get fresh warm bread, without chancing over baking it when you heat it up. 

 

As far as efficiency - the more you bake, the more efficient you'll become with kneading and managing the time spent. But recipes do make a difference too - this is one that I like that is really forgiving - it can take being over worked, it can take being neglected, it can take poor kneading... it's really hard to mess up. And you can shape it however you want, add to it however you want - it's a great all purpose dough. Sometimes I cut it with half rye for a light rye loaf, for example. 

 


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Old 06-02-2013, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Let's revive this thread. I've re-instituted Sunday baking at my house because I'm tired of paying money for crap, over processed bread. Last week I did a few sandwich loaves and focaccia. Today I've bacon pain d'epi going, and will be doing some sandwich loaves too. Plus  I did a couple of batches of cookies, but that's not bread - Sunday baking is all-inclusive at my house though. 

 

Anyone else baking these days?


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Old 06-02-2013, 01:05 PM
 
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I'm on maternity leave again so back to baking all our bread. I just use a whole wheat sandwich loaf recipe and make it with my mixmaster, as needed, with DS1's "help". I am planning on making Monday baking day as it's a good day to stay home and baking is a good activity for my two year old. Tomorrow i plan to do a batch of muffins, probably oatmeal strawberry.

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Old 06-10-2013, 07:14 AM
 
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Most of my bread-baking has been boring lately. Basic whole wheat loaves and not much else. I did make a pain d'epi awhile ago and it turned out nicely. It's such a pretty bread to bring to the table at dinner. 

 

I have started a new sourdough chef. It won't be ready for baking for a few days yet. I'll update when I make the first loaf. My last sourdough starter died of neglect in the back of the refrigerator. I hope I'm a little more attentive this time around  redface.gif

 

Other baking - I bought rhubarb at the farmer's market this weekend, as well as lots of strawberries (and asparagus and peas. I went a little overboard with all the gorgeous spring produce). Everyone is asking for a pie, so I think I'll be doing that later today. 

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Old 06-10-2013, 07:40 AM
 
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I used to make a great whole grain bread (if I do say so myself), but haven't in years and can't find the recipe. It used a combination of grains (whole wheat, whole wheat pastry flour, millet and oat), brown rice syrup and barley malt, with a touch of molasses for sweeteners, yeast and rice milk. I was trying to duplicate my aunts' bread, which I *loved* growing up! I hope this information inspires you to try experimenting with different grains and sweeteners. The results can be delicious!

By the way, I don't bake or eat bread anymore because I can't find a yeast that doesn't give me food allergy symptoms. I miss the "good old days", when I was less sensitive. Good luck, all!
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Old 06-19-2013, 06:22 AM
 
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Update: We are enjoying yummy fresh sourdough! joy.gif

 

The sourdough starter seems a little weak. The first loaves of bread turned out fairly well but I kinda babied them along every step of the way. They required more flour and adjusting ingredients, more kneading, more rising time and more attention than I typically have to give. I'm hoping that the starter gains some vigour as it matures a little. 

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Old 06-19-2013, 10:51 AM
 
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I have a sourdough starter culture thats been sitting in my fridge for months.  I love sourdough bread but I don't eat bread anymore, and the kids don't like it.  I should just try it out though, just for fun!

 

We decided a few months ago to stop buying bread and start making our own.  When you pack 3 sandwiches a day for school lunches, we were going through bread really fast!  Plus we just want our kids eating something made with love and care at home.  

 

I'm about to go start some loaves now.  Now that school is out we haven't had to keep up on it as much, but I want to stay in the routine.  I love the smell of baking bread in my house, and I love making bread, even if I don't eat it!  We haven't bought bread in 3 months!!

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Old 06-19-2013, 06:31 PM - Thread Starter
 
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This past Sunday we were out and about quite a bit and I forgot to get the dough started in the morning, so I ended up making a quick white bread - kind of similar to Irish soda bread, but plainer and used baking powder instead of soda. It's nothing to write home about, but serviceable. And it was a decent breakfast with a generous slather of butter and cinnamon sugar. We'll eat the last of it tomorrow I think. 

 

This weekend I'm going to try my hand at King Arthur's Classic Sandwich Bread. I don't have any loaf pans currently, but it's payday this week and it's high time I bought a new one. It will be $15 well spent. 

 

Something else I keep meaning to share here is my new proofing method - in the crockpot, using the warm setting. It gets far too hot if you leave it on warm for the entire rise, but I finally figured out that if I turn the crockpot on the warm setting for the first ten minutes of the proof, then turn it off it's the perfect way to let the bread rise. And having the lid on the crockpot means I don't have to use plastic wrap or dirty up a kitchen towel. My kitchen is often drafty and I have issues with the rise, so this may be a solution for those that have the same problem. 


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Old 06-20-2013, 08:03 AM
 
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Something else I keep meaning to share here is my new proofing method - in the crockpot, using the warm setting. It gets far too hot if you leave it on warm for the entire rise, but I finally figured out that if I turn the crockpot on the warm setting for the first ten minutes of the proof, then turn it off it's the perfect way to let the bread rise. And having the lid on the crockpot means I don't have to use plastic wrap or dirty up a kitchen towel. My kitchen is often drafty and I have issues with the rise, so this may be a solution for those that have the same problem. 

 

Ah! Another good reason for me to buy a slow cooker. I've been debating whether to get one since I don't like to buy stuff I don't really need. I have a hunch I would use one a lot. 

 

Mostly, I've been craving pulled pork sandwiches for a long time  lol.gif. A reliable method for proofing bread dough would be really useful though and a terrific justification for the purchase. Thanks!! 

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Old 06-21-2013, 06:58 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Ah! Another good reason for me to buy a slow cooker. I've been debating whether to get one since I don't like to buy stuff I don't really need. I have a hunch I would use one a lot. 

Mostly, I've been craving pulled pork sandwiches for a long time  lol.gif. A reliable method for proofing bread dough would be really useful though and a terrific justification for the purchase. Thanks!! 

 

They are absolutely worth the money - such an efficient and quick way to get healthy food on the table. Watch for the deals - you can often find the really nice Rival digital ones for as low as $20 this time of year. Glad to be of help!


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Old 06-21-2013, 06:31 PM
 
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Someone asked a few pages back about how to get a light whole wheat loaf. Has anyone tried adding porridge to the dough?

 

I've never added it to a 100% WW loaf, but I've added it to a half-and-half one and it was really light. It makes white bread lighter too. Gives it a really nice soft texture, and the porridge sort of disappears into the dough, so you don't notice its presence. DH and I both like it. I'd do it all the time if I were organised enough to make porridge for the purpose; as it is, I only chuck it in if I've made too much porridge.

 

I don't do sourdough. I did for a while on two occasions, lured in by Sally Fallon guilt trips and vague Little House on the Prairie fauxstalgia; but both times I eventually admitted I don't really like sourdough. It's OK once in a while, but I don't like it for everyday loaves, and especially not for sweet breads, pizza dough, rolls or other "fancy" breads. Soooo, I gave up.


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Old 06-21-2013, 07:52 PM
 
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Subbing.

 

We made super-lightloaf with soymilk--yeast goes bananas for it.  The homemade stuff was amazing.  Mostly we used our typical presweetened store stuff. Porridge in the bread makes for light bread, too.  Avoid sour ingredients until you get a feel for what works.  Acidity can work against you, especially when you are figuring things out.

 

Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book is still my favorite for 100% whole grain.


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Old 06-23-2013, 07:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Made the King Arthur sandwich bread today. I used soymilk instead of dairy milk since husband and I are both lactose intolerant. And I didn't end up buying a new loaf pan. I have an oval enameled cast iron Dutch oven that's about the same size, so I tried it in that. The dough was a dream to worth with and had a nice rise. The top didn't color up a bit though - I thought it was odd that the recipe baked the bread at 350 straight through, but I always like to try a new recipe as written the first time around. If it's a good loaf otherwise, next time I'll do an egg wash or something and start it at a higher temp so it gets some nice browning on top. 

 

Though not bread, I also baked up some pumpkin muffins today for Sunday baking. 


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Old 06-24-2013, 04:02 PM
 
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Tell me more about giving WW bread 5 rises? From my sourdough days I recall that you have to feed the dough every few rises, or the yeast kinda runs out and loses its oomph. Is that not true for regular yeast? How many times can you rise one lot of dough before the yeast gives out? Do you use more yeast than usual at the start, or add some more between rises, or...?

 

DH and I are going off white sugar and flour for a while to slim down, so I'm tackling a 100% WW loaf today. Nothing fancy, just storebought wholemeal flour - some of it scraped off the kitchen floor where DS upended the whole packet (sigh). I made porridge for breakfast and will add it in - it's a little over a cup - and after a bit of googling, I'll also attempt to keep it light by doing a long, fold-and-stretch knead, keeping the dough tacky, adding an egg to the mix, making a poolish, adding the salt late in the kneading process, and giving it at least 3 rises.

 

A lot of people recommended adding vital wheat gluten too, but I'm out of it. I'll go and get some only if I can be bothered, which is not looking likely right now. :pI

 

If you add kibbled grains to the dough, when do you guys add it? Do you soak them first? I used to put grains in bread, but it's been a while and I can't remember how I did it!


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Old 06-24-2013, 06:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Tell me more about giving WW bread 5 rises? From my sourdough days I recall that you have to feed the dough every few rises, or the yeast kinda runs out and loses its oomph. Is that not true for regular yeast? How many times can you rise one lot of dough before the yeast gives out? Do you use more yeast than usual at the start, or add some more between rises, or...?

 

I've never even tried a 100% whole wheat bread because of it's density; I've only ever done 50% white/50% other. I've never read anything about feeding the dough in between rises, though that's interesting and you bring up a good point about the longevity of the yeast in relation to it's "food supply". At some point, all of the sugar will be consumed and there will be nothing left for it to eat, thus no more rising. I'm going to have to research this - fortunately, I just found my copy of McGee in storage at my in laws, so I'm fully reunited with my reference cookbooks. What I have read on the multiple proofing practice is that it's more about developing flavor than anything else - and I've found that we do prefer the taste of loaves risen multiple times as opposed to just twice.

 

If you try it, let us know how it turns out. 

 

And now I have a question for everyone. :-) The loaf I made in the enameled cast iron turned out really well, so I'm going to keep working the recipe until I perfect it. The only real issue is that the loaf stuck pretty good to the sides of the pan. I was able to pry it out mostly intact with an icing knife, but it wasn't dinner-guest-worthy by a long shot (not that I ever have those, but still). Should I oil or butter the pan before I put the dough in? I think I've heard that's not recommended because the dough won't have the traction to "climb" the sides of the pan as it bakes in the oven, but what do you guys think?


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