Why AREN'T you a vegan/vegetarian? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

View Poll Results: Why AREN'T you a vegan/vegetarian?
I believe animals are here to serve us 32 11.35%
I like the way animal products taste way too much to not eat them 71 25.18%
I have never thought about the cruelties of factory farming 1 0.35%
It's all I know. Eating meat was how I was raised. I never considered anything else 19 6.74%
I believe it is the healthiest way for me to eat 145 51.42%
I'm on a fad diet like atkins that condones eating meat 1 0.35%
I think vegans are weirdos and don't want to grouped in with them 5 1.77%
I have never heard a good argument against eating meat, but would change if I did 8 2.84%
Voters: 282. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-28-2004, 07:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Primrose Burrows
There's no "I don't eat meat but I do eat fish" choice.

The idea of meat bothers me. I continue to eat fish because a. I'm not disciplined enough to get my protein elsewhere and b. I really like fish.


Kelly
I never had any meat, fish, poultry or any dead animals in my entire life (knowingly) but I suddenly started craving fish this pregnancy. I had some fish and chips and it really hit the spot. It was so weird. But I'm still pregnant and not craving it and am a bit revolted by the thought of eating it. Weird pregnancy. heh
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Old 10-29-2004, 01:36 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kavamamakava
I never had any meat, fish, poultry or any dead animals in my entire life (knowingly) but I suddenly started craving fish this pregnancy. I had some fish and chips and it really hit the spot. It was so weird. But I'm still pregnant and not craving it and am a bit revolted by the thought of eating it. Weird pregnancy. heh
I took a midwifery intensive course a while ago with a wonderul teacher, who told us "If a pregnant vegetarian craves meat, she should eat it". Apparently it's the body's way of telling her she needs a certain compound available in meat.

Kelly
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Old 10-29-2004, 01:42 AM
 
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Funny, I have hated fish (except salmon) my whole life, and when I was pregnant I craved it all the time. Especially salmon, but all other fish too. I kept going out for fish & chips and thinking "this is disgusting" but I kept doing it. :LOL I did believe my body was trying to tell me something. Granted, I could've found it in a healthier form than greasy fried fish & chips... but it was just so goooood... in such a icky way... :LOL
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Old 10-29-2004, 04:30 AM
 
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A friend of mine told me that it was probably an iodine deficiency since I'm a recent transplant to the Pacific Northwest. Maybe that one week or so of fish solved the problem. I did start eating more seaweed for a while and that helped too.
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Old 10-29-2004, 04:32 AM
 
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I even went to Whole Foods and bought some grilled salmon. It had a nice flavor but I didn't really like the texture. The fish and chips did'nt have that chewiness. I think it was just fried to hell and back. LOL. I really enjoyed my big basket of greasiness smothered in malt vinegar but I really don't have a craving to do it again.
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Old 10-29-2004, 04:52 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kavamamakava
I believe that beans and rice make a whole protein. Chapatis are like whole wheat tortillas - the package said that 1 chapati has 4 grams of protein. I also garnish my meal with plain yogurt but didn't mention it since it's really just a garnish. I do use about 1/2 cup throughout the meal though. I had no idea that corn was a protein source. My brown rice says it has 8 grams of protein per serving.
Actually, dieticians have now discounted the idea that you have to combine foods to get a "whole protein" in a single sitting. Tha's outdated advice.

So long as you are eating in a generally healthy way, you will get your complete proteins/amino acids over the course of several meals/days.

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Originally Posted by polihaupt
Besides, I have tried eating vegan foods from the local co-op, and I just can't stand the taste or the smell of it
Which vegan foods were those? Fruits or vegetables or grains or beans or legumes or....?
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Old 10-30-2004, 02:41 AM
 
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I should not be here, but I just have to say, I LOVE that someone brought up what I like to call "The screaming asparagus" argument...that plants and animals are the same somehow & it is OK to eat both. Total nonsense when you consider anything from pain response to the presence of the CNS.

Basically, you can justify that it's OK to eat anything, if you want. However, we have developed opposable thumbs over our years as humans, and I like to think of more creative things to do with them than cause pain so that I can have a hamburger. My goal is to walk gently through this beautiful life and take only what's necessary, create beauty, and avoid causing unecessary pain. I feel so much better than I ever did when I ate the flesh of dead animals. in you mamas
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Old 10-30-2004, 03:18 AM
 
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If pain is the issue, does that mean that it would be ok with you for an animal to be killed if it could be done painlessly?

-Alice, SAHM to dd (2001) and ds (2004) each of whom was a homebirth.jpg, who each self-weaned at 4.5 years bfolderchild.gif, who both fambedsingle2.gif'd, who were bothcd.gif, and both: novaxnocirc.gif.   Also, gd.gif, and goorganic.jpg!

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Old 10-30-2004, 03:26 AM
 
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There's no choice for me. Myself and my family, except for my husband, were vegetarians for about 7 years. My kids are old enough now that I let them choose what they wanted to eat, and I started to lose weight because I was eating way too many carbs and plain old junk because I don't like veggies, or tofu, or most of the veggie meat replacers. I also thought that being a vegetarian might have been what was making me sick.
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Old 10-30-2004, 04:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sustainer
If pain is the issue, does that mean that it would be ok with you for an animal to be killed if it could be done painlessly?
Can you really imagine a way of farming, hunting, or killing animals so that they experience no stress, suffering, or pain, and are not denied the ability to express their inherent behaviors, or satisfy their innate psychological, social, or physical needs? If so, I'd be interested in hearing about it.

To me, this sort of question ranks up there with ones like, "What if plants feel pain?" and "If everyone stopped eating animals, wouldn't those poor cows go extinct?" They seem more like diversions than serious questions. (Not saying, sustainer, that you weren't asking in seriousness--but to me, I don't really see a point in spending a lot of time musing on such matters, since they address such unlikely scenarios)

I did read an article on how, in the future, scientists believe they might be able to create cloned meats (not cloned animals). beats me how'd they'd actually do this. Doesn't sound appetizing. I'll stick with my beans and nuts
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Old 10-30-2004, 04:44 AM
 
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It is a purely theoretical question, asked in an attempt to get to the bottom of a way of thinking.

-Alice, SAHM to dd (2001) and ds (2004) each of whom was a homebirth.jpg, who each self-weaned at 4.5 years bfolderchild.gif, who both fambedsingle2.gif'd, who were bothcd.gif, and both: novaxnocirc.gif.   Also, gd.gif, and goorganic.jpg!

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Old 10-30-2004, 07:42 AM
 
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I took a midwifery intensive course a while ago with a wonderul teacher, who told us "If a pregnant vegetarian craves meat, she should eat it". Apparently it's the body's way of telling her she needs a certain compound available in meat.
Just a funny thing this brought to mind. I had "pica" during my pregnancy - the desire to eat inedible things such as chalk, dirt, etc. Apparently that is also because my body was craving something. I had the urge to eat dirt the whole pregnancy, and the smell of a dirty raw potato was heaven to me. However, I didn't eat dirt (I could often be seen gazing lovingly over potatoes though LOL!) But, it does make me wonder if we should really go with our cravings or perhaps just analyze our diets more?

Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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Old 10-30-2004, 07:48 AM
 
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And Mountain, I just love "the screaming asparagus" - that is one I haven't heard and I think I just peed myself.




Laughing, that is.




Not just some kinda freak accident due to the need for Kegels. Although, that has happened.

Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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Old 10-30-2004, 11:56 AM
 
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The question still stands: Theoretically, if killing animals were painless, would that make it okay? I'm curious.

-Alice, SAHM to dd (2001) and ds (2004) each of whom was a homebirth.jpg, who each self-weaned at 4.5 years bfolderchild.gif, who both fambedsingle2.gif'd, who were bothcd.gif, and both: novaxnocirc.gif.   Also, gd.gif, and goorganic.jpg!

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Old 10-30-2004, 12:45 PM
 
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Animals die during farming. There are thousands of rodents, birds, insects, etc. that die during the tilling of the earth. Blood is spilled and pain is suffered whether you eat plants or animals. We as human beings developed as omnivores. Undoubtedly, modern humans eat more meat and less vegetables than we should but that does not negate the fact that we are biologically set up to eat both plants and animals. I believe in eating as healthy as possible in the most humane manner - organic and free range. There are certain meats I avoid such as veal because of the inherent cruelty in their production. I believe that you can tread lightly on this earth and eat meat.
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Old 10-30-2004, 04:54 PM
 
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I voted "I believe it is the healthiest way for me to eat" because my family (DH, DD and I) all ran into some major health problems on an extremely strict (no packaged or junk foods, no caffeine, chocolate, or alcohol/drugs, everything made from scratch including tempeh and tofu) whole foods vegan diet. Now we are conscious omnivores who raise our own poultry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by my~hearts~light
I have recently started following some of the biblical instruction for eating meat. I know very little about this as a whole and am looking for a good book on it. We only eat beef, chicken, turkey and deer right now. No pork at all.
Have you tried reading "The Maker's Diet" by Jordan Rubin? I've heard that one is good and biblically based.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EFmom
I can understand how one could be vegetarian, but not how one could be vegan. I have a niece who is. I dearly love this girl and I dearly hate having her come stay in my house because of her diet. I would never want to be in that position myself.
For people who are extremely ethically motivated, any animal enslavement is akin to murder. That is why we were vegan, because you cannot have milk or eggs without being dependent on killing a bull calf for meat or culling the unwanted chickens, either the males at birth or the old tired layers. Also, some people can argue that it is more humane to kill a wild animal for meat instead of forcing an animal to live in crowded and unhappy environment, milking or taking eggs away from that animal, and then after it is done finally killing it.

Another reason for being vegan is for people allergic to both milk and eggs, who don't want to eat meat.

I did not find it very hard to cook vegan (however going out to eat was a completely different story), but unfortunately it did not work for my family.
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Old 10-30-2004, 06:23 PM
 
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The question still stands: Theoretically, if killing animals were painless, would that make it okay? I'm curious.
This is the deal with animals and pain and such. Oh, but first, the answer is no. But if I was living in the wild and could find no berries etc, I would kill an animal to survive regardless of what tools I had therefore how painful it may be. It is the nature of beasts - the greatest beast of all being man.

However, I have been attached to a cow, they are beautiful creatures with a loving heart and deep, soulful eyes. I have been friends with a lamb, until it reached adulthood, and they are funny people, and like to snuggle your neck. Just like our pets, the dog and the cat, we learn they are amazing creatures, with their own spirit and personality, and killing a cat or a dog after knowing this becomes an inner struggle. I love all creatures, and knowing there is such wastage of their bodies burns at my chest. We throw away so much, and the markets just keep churning them out - we have no respect for the lives we have taken. We don't see the flesh on our plate as something's mother or a thinking being.

When we eat meat in our home, we don't give thanks to God, we give thanks to the animal that was sacrificed so that we may eat in luxury. I didn't have to battle for hours to catch, kill and skin the animal - it just magically appears at the store. So this is how I am teaching my child thankfulness, and one day we will witness a real kill, so she knows the fullness of reality and appreciates what flesh is.

So, no, if it were painless (there are ways to kill painlessly), it wouldn't change anything for me as I appreciate all souls and all personalities of these amazing creatures. We are almost vegetarian and once my bone marrow problems are sorted, I will ditch meat completely. In fact, this thread has inspired me to just deal with the problems I face with iron supplements and ditch meat now.

Eat meat if you like, just be grateful - for all the things you don't have to do to have it, and all the things you prevented that animal from experiencing in life so you could have it.

Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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Old 10-31-2004, 12:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Primrose Burrows
There's no "I don't eat meat but I do eat fish" choice.

Kelly
That's because the poll is about why you aren't a vegetarian. You answered the question in your reply but us veg*ns define it as not eating animals and fish are animals, too. We make no ethical distinction between the two. Hence no separation in the poll.

-PM

Early intervention specialist and parent consultant since 2002.
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Old 10-31-2004, 01:13 AM
 
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When animals die and rot, roots of plants suck up the nutrients.
Veggies don't care where they get their sustenance from.
Veggies 'eat' dead animals.

So veggies are not vegetarian.

They are eaters of everything.
Omnivores, even.

If you eat a vegetable which grew by feeding off the nutrients of dead animals, (insects, birds, mice, etc., etc.), aren't you practicing indirect meat-eating?

(found on Usenet)
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Old 10-31-2004, 01:53 AM
 
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Oh Deadheadgranny, that is enlightening, a la Buddha! Love it!


We Are One, We Are A Part Of Everything, And Everything Is Us.

Nice work.

Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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Old 10-31-2004, 03:16 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhonwyn
Animals die during farming. There are thousands of rodents, birds, insects, etc. that die during the tilling of the earth. Blood is spilled and pain is suffered whether you eat plants or animals. We as human beings developed as omnivores. Undoubtedly, modern humans eat more meat and less vegetables than we should but that does not negate the fact that we are biologically set up to eat both plants and animals. I believe in eating as healthy as possible in the most humane manner - organic and free range. There are certain meats I avoid such as veal because of the inherent cruelty in their production. I believe that you can tread lightly on this earth and eat meat.
There's an enormous difference between a wild animal who is accidentally killed and a farmed animal who, from birth to death, is kept in conditions that range from merely unpleasant to horrendous.
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Old 10-31-2004, 03:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sustainer
The question still stands: Theoretically, if killing animals were painless, would that make it okay? I'm curious.
Not suffering would certainly be better for the animals.

I probably would still choose not to eat them. It just feels better to my spirit not to (and it would be far better for the environment if we weren't engaging in animal agriculture, and if we weren't depleting the seas with overfishing, but that's another discussion). I don't need to eat animals to be healthy, so I can't see any reason I'd change that.

Would it be "okay"? For me, not really. For others? Only they can say. Would less pain and misery in the world be a good thing? Certainly. Will this ever come to pass? Not bloody likely.
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Old 10-31-2004, 09:27 AM
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Theoretically, how do you know if the animal even feels any pain if the death is so fast?
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Old 10-31-2004, 11:25 AM
 
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So it sounds like there are people who think that even painless killing of animals would be wrong, so what I want to know now is, what is it that makes painless killing of animals (for food) wrong, and why dosn't it apply to plants? Let's assume we're talking about hunting wild animals, so we're not talking about the whole captivity/treatment/factory farming issue.

-Alice, SAHM to dd (2001) and ds (2004) each of whom was a homebirth.jpg, who each self-weaned at 4.5 years bfolderchild.gif, who both fambedsingle2.gif'd, who were bothcd.gif, and both: novaxnocirc.gif.   Also, gd.gif, and goorganic.jpg!

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Old 10-31-2004, 12:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Even though Im the OP Ive been quiet till now (not wanting to get into any debates) but I wanted to answer Sustainer's question. I would not eat an animal no matter how painlessly it is killed. Animals exist for their own purposes, not for ours. It has been proven that many form attachments, relationships, value their lives. It would be wrong for me to end their lives simply to I can dine on their flesh when there are SO many alternatives. We live in an age where veganism comes easy if you're willing. Plants dont have a brain stem or a central nervous system. They are not alive in the same sense that an animal is.

Mother of 3, welcomed a new baby girl July 2011

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Old 10-31-2004, 02:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadheadGranny
When animals die and rot, roots of plants suck up the nutrients.
Veggies don't care where they get their sustenance from.
Veggies 'eat' dead animals.

So veggies are not vegetarian.

They are eaters of everything.
Omnivores, even.

If you eat a vegetable which grew by feeding off the nutrients of dead animals, (insects, birds, mice, etc., etc.), aren't you practicing indirect meat-eating?

(found on Usenet)
Beings eat what they are DESIGNED to eat. Roots are made to absorb nutrients available. They do not have free will or opposable thumbs, or appendages for that matter...there is a difference.

Humans are not designed to eat meat, despite the "oh we have canine teeth" argument. Actually, we have teeth suited for ripping tougher vegetables, not meat.

Of course everything is in a life/death cycle...However, I don't think that really pertains to the actual ethical issue of meat eating.

We are all part of a life/death cycle, but the question that some thinkers ask themselves is "How can I cause the least amount of suffering?"

As with everything in life, it is a matter of degree.

Compare: field mice being accidentally tilled (somehow I'm surmising that they would AVOID large machinery & there are a limited number of mice vs. animals bred for killing that live their entire lives enduring no sun, dry grass, living in their own shit, dosed with antibiotics, their young taken from them.

If you hunt your own deer, I can see ethically your murder is a matter of degrees better than if purchased from the murder industry.

I compare: a healthy, LOW CHOLESTEROL, diet vs. a diet with animals that are raised to die, KNOWING they are going to die, SCREAMING when they are about to die, living in nasty conditions. For instance, chickens are allowed to have a certain amount of breast infection (measured by the PUS they excrete) and are still SELLABLE. I do understand the organic free range is "better" in degree, however I would still not support the industry of pain.

There's no way to painlessly kill an animal anyway. What would you do, pump em up on morphine? That in itself would be a painfully cruel way for an animal to be treated.

I want to treat everyone as what they are, babies of the earth...I do have to make a distinction between animals and vegetables simply because there IS one.

For humans (i've had this discussion so many times w/ doctors, nurses, everyone! that concur, if not follow their thinking!), a vegetarian diet is copacetic. We have teeth that enable us to eat different sources of plants (inscisors for harder fruits, to acquire corn). We have witnessed the plagues of death by too much cholesterol (found in animals, not in plants), gout, cancer (especially of the colon).
We do NOT have the type of small intestine that carnivores have. Humans ingest most of the toxins in meat, where wolves, dogs have a SHORT small intestine that does not absorb these toxins, they excrete them before they can be absorbed...vegetarians live longer, healthier lives, it is in the research unavoidably.

You choose your life, and what lives you take.
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Old 10-31-2004, 04:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastiansmommy
We live in an age where veganism comes easy if you're willing.
Perhaps vegetarianism comes easy, but I don't think veganism is as easy. Veganism is more than just a diet, it is about how you live your life. I have tried both veganism and vegetarianism, but sometimes it seems arbitrary to me. This is more true of vegetarianism, I find. I have a friend who is a vegetarian and he will carefully read labels to avoid gelatin or stearate, but if it has partially hydrogenated oils, he eats it (which I feel is unhealthy). His car has leather, but he would have had to pay for the leather seats to be removed and cloth ones installed, so he kept the leather seats. I end up doing the same with meat. When I was trying to be a total vegetarian, I ended up eating meat because it would have all been discarded and I felt it was worse at that point than if I at least got sustenance from it. I am really drawn to the idea of veganism, but I've been unable to fully embrace and I'm not sure why. Part of it is probably just that I don't agree with all the tenets of veganism.
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Old 10-31-2004, 04:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastiansmommy
Animals exist for their own purposes, not for ours.
The same is true of plants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastiansmommy
They are not alive in the same sense that an animal is.
I think plants are just as alive as animals are.

-Alice, SAHM to dd (2001) and ds (2004) each of whom was a homebirth.jpg, who each self-weaned at 4.5 years bfolderchild.gif, who both fambedsingle2.gif'd, who were bothcd.gif, and both: novaxnocirc.gif.   Also, gd.gif, and goorganic.jpg!

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Old 10-31-2004, 04:27 PM
 
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We usually only eat meat when we eat out at a restaurant. Even then we try to avoid it. I like the way it tastes but I also understand it contributes to chronic diseases and harms our environment. Avoiding meat actually helps trim down our grocery bill. We also do not drink milk. But I do admit we eat cheese. Aren't we confusing?

It does make me feel bad that an animal had to die to provide us with their meat.
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Old 10-31-2004, 04:48 PM
 
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I agree with the pps about living with a carnivore. Dh eats nothing but animal products, ds is vegan' cept for fish (he is allergic to dairy and eggs, I am vegetarian 'cept for fish, and of course dd only eats breastmilk. I do alot of cooking ) I was vegan till the smell of dhs pizza got to me. I'll have to pitch in about the craving for meat while preg, but I never gave in. We believe its healthier to not eat meat, and bad karma. Dh has tried to go veg but the poor guy loses too much weight, as he detests almost all vegetables. I only feel slight guilt about eating fish, as they are not mammals, like us. I believe a vegan diet is the healthiest, as long as it is based on whole grains and various beans, and not soy.
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