Why AREN'T you a vegan/vegetarian? - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

View Poll Results: Why AREN'T you a vegan/vegetarian?
I believe animals are here to serve us 32 11.35%
I like the way animal products taste way too much to not eat them 71 25.18%
I have never thought about the cruelties of factory farming 1 0.35%
It's all I know. Eating meat was how I was raised. I never considered anything else 19 6.74%
I believe it is the healthiest way for me to eat 145 51.42%
I'm on a fad diet like atkins that condones eating meat 1 0.35%
I think vegans are weirdos and don't want to grouped in with them 5 1.77%
I have never heard a good argument against eating meat, but would change if I did 8 2.84%
Voters: 282. You may not vote on this poll

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#121 of 198 Old 11-01-2004, 08:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Parthenia
Here's one:


And many small family farms raise their animals in conditions better than what some humans live in.
.
I grew up on a family farm. One of our cows was 21 years old and many were in their teens- they had pasture and fresh well water.

Unfortunately all the male calves still went to be raised as veal or steers. It was still eons better than the horror cattle face on conventional commercial dairy farms now.

Other than organic (or buying direct, raising yourself), you can't be sure you're getting anything from a family or small farm.

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#122 of 198 Old 11-02-2004, 03:00 AM
 
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[QUOTE=kaydeesac]Parthenia--those quote of mine you used was in direct response to Rhonwyn's statement about animals dying during farming, which, to me, seemed to equate accidental with intentional killing of animals. Why does that seem out of line to you? Sorry, I don't get it...

Please go back and read my response as a whole. The whole issue of pain, accidental killing, intentional killing, etc. is a small aspect of why people choose to eat meat or not. It seems that some are focusing on this single issue when even the poll, biased as it was listed several reasons why people choose not to be vegetarians.

Human suffering is absolutely relevant in nearly choice we all make, including *what we eat*. Why do I have the luxury to choose my what I eat? How will my food choices impact the animals who gave their lives (obviously unwillingly) for my meal, as well as people who are affected by what I eat. Does my buying chicken from Purdue affect the local agricultural economy? Does it help put a family farm out of business? If I cook a meal for our church's monthly community suppers, will a meat dish be more filling for someone who doesn't know where their next meal will come from? If I buy non organic apples am I encouraging more pesticide use? If I am offered game meat, how can I share it with someone who is short on food? Breaking bread--sharing food--with someone is a huge gesture. When we have plenty and live with people who have plenty it's easy to lose sight of that.
Is it a far leap to say that one of the reasons some people choose to be vegetarians because the way large farms raise livestock for food is wasteful, hurts the environment, and contributes to human suffering?
Human suffering is as relevant as animal suffering when it comes to food.
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I don't know that I'd say its necesarily true that all people who are/were vegetarian are well-versed in all the issues. I know many who are familiar with some aspects (say, animal welfare concerns) but not others (issues with supplementation and good nutrition).
I don't think I'd say that either. What I said was "I would assume that people who were vegetarians for any length of time would be aware of the arguements health, ethical, and otherwise for either side of the grocery aisle."
Speaking as an omnivore (who was a vegetarian for 14 years) the decision to eat meat involves a whole slew of ethical, philosophical, and health considerations. When people choose to become or remain vegetarians surely some thought goes into *why*. And when those vegetarians decide not to be vegetarians, there must be a reason. Maybe some people think more about it than others do. Personally I thought about it for 14 years plus a couple of years before actually becoming a vegetarian. I didn't suddenly wake up one day and decide I'd stop being a vegetarian either.
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#123 of 198 Old 11-02-2004, 03:44 AM
 
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I voted for the "healthy for me" choice -- I was a veggie for 9 1/2 years and started eating small quanties of meat again after I realized meat was one of the few things I could digest "slowly" because of my IBS. (Everything else gave me the runs -- not pleasant!)

3 years later, I have the IBS under better control, but I am still eating meat on occasion. Probably once or twice a week. When my body "tells" me I should. Mostly, we still consume veggie products -- boca burgers and the like. If there's a veggie substitute for it, I'll eat that instead of meat.
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#124 of 198 Old 11-02-2004, 10:47 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kaydeesac
OV sounds like a decent network of farmers. I don't like to rely solely on a company's PR as evidence of truth, whether for animal products or any other products (formula companies make their product sound pretty great, as well). That's why third-party certification programs (or personal investigation) are my preferred method of sussing out the facts.

It's encouraging that some of OV's producers are Free Farmed certified. It would be ideal if they all were, and I hope OV is moving towards that goal. (It would also be better if Free Farmed addressed transport & slaughter, which I don't believe they do at this point.)

I think it is critical that a third party acts as a watchdog, esp. when organic standards really don't do not go sufficiently far in addressing animal welfare in (See the animal husbandry section of the actual USDA organic standards at: http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/NOP/stan...odHandReg.html)

Yes I agree completely. That is one of the reasons I am not voting for Bush. Under his adminstration, the USDA has tried to weaken organic labels to please big agri-business. I do not trust the USDA to be impartial.
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#125 of 198 Old 11-02-2004, 01:57 PM
 
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I wish I could have voted for more than one thing but I picked "Because it's the healthiest way to eat." I think all you have to do is read some books like Nourishing Traditions to realize that humans have never, ever, ever not eaten some form of animal products, even if we're just talking about yeast, probiotics, and live organisms, larva, and bugs in unwashed food. Even the prototypical "grass-fed" cows aren't vegan .... they eat a ton of insects and larva and probiotic organisms every year since obviously no one washes the bugs or dirt off of the grass they eat.

I would have also liked to pick "Because I like the way it tastes." I love yogurt and kefir, and can't imagine life without delicious cultured butter or ripe cheeses.
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#126 of 198 Old 11-03-2004, 03:48 AM
 
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I didn't vote...The closest option for me is the first one. But I don't like how it is written. I don't think that animals are here to "serve" us, but I think that they are here in a recipical relationship with us. I think that there are so many good things that can come from animals, whether it be food, clothing, etc. Man has always found a resource in animals. I don't think an animal should ever be treated with malice. We need to respect all animals, even ones that we use for food. I like how some american indians would say a pray after they had killed an animal. To me that shows great love and respect. So my vote is that they were put on this earth for us, but they must be treated with kindness and respected for all that they do for us.
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#127 of 198 Old 11-03-2004, 09:21 AM
 
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I had trouble choosing. I eat very little meat but I do use animal products. I do my very best to avoid cruelty and factory farms (pretty easy to do in my area, actually). I chose the "healthiest way to live" but in reality it's just the healthiest easy way to live-- I know I could be just as healthy or healthier with a vegan lifestyle if I was willing to work at it.
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#128 of 198 Old 11-04-2004, 01:23 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Periwinkle
I think all you have to do is read some books like Nourishing Traditions to realize that humans have never, ever, ever not eaten some form of animal products.

NT is not really an unbiased source of information. In fact, a lot of the problem with finding information on veganism/vegetarianism is that so much of it is skewed one direction or another. It's either adamantly pro-veg or adamantly anti-veg. It's so polarized that it's hard to find impartial information. (It reminds me of trying to find good factual info. on vaccines--it's either the pro-vax camp or the anti-vax camp)

But I want to echo what someone else said in thanking you omni's for not getting into too heated of a debate. (In fact, I want to tell some of the other vegans to cool off a little and not use the big "it's a fact" guns, because that never gets an informative discussion going; rather, it just invites debate). It helps enlighten us vegans as to the reasons behind your choices, as it is obviously hard for us to relate to. My dh is not vegan and I often am confused as to why, when he knows all my "reasons." What is a good reason for one may not be a good reason for another. I'm glad to see that so many of you are at least trying to eat organic, free-range animal products.

Some random thoughts:
I feel the above quote by periwinkle is too broad. What I mean by that is what do you mean by "humans?" If some civilization years down the line had to sum up what "humans" ate now, they would say, "well, they were omnivores," but that doesn't mean that *none* of us are vegan, obviously this is not the case. I wonder if, within traditional tribal mankind, there existed a subgroup of vegans, just as there are subgroups of vegans within mankind now. I wonder this because I could not imagine myself being in a tribe and wanting to eat meat; I think it would just gross me out. (for the record, meat has always grossed me out; before I knew any better, I ate it because I thought I had to, in order to be healthy). I wonder if there's always been weirdo vegans like us and, if so, what evolutionary purpose we serve LOL!

Regarding plants: Call me a bad vegan or human-centric, but I do tend to have a greater affinity for living things on a continuum scale based upon how similar they are to me. For instance, of the animals commonly eaten in our society, I abhor the killing of pigs the most: they are the most our size of farmed animals, they are mammals; I read somewhere they have the intelligence of a 3 year old, which just conjures up images of my dd being slaughtered. Next comes the other mammal: cows, then the other land animals: chickens and turkeys, then the other animals: fish, then insects (I have been known on very rare occasions to consume products with honey in them). For me, plants cross another line that simply feels better to me; perhaps this is just because they are too different for me to relate to. Do the carrots suffer when I rip them out of my garden? Maybe, but they can't look at me, KWIM? For me, it's just different enough. Some raw fooders even claim that killing plants is wrong, and they espouse only eating fruit, because you don't kill the plant in order to eat its fruit. Seems like a nice idea in theory, but I don't know that I could pull it off LOL! I guess for me, it's just a scale of trying to cause the least amount of suffering that I can. You can't cause no suffering unless you learn to eat air. For me, the lifestyle I feel best about is a vegan lifestyle, but it's very good for me to understand where you all are coming from, as well. Thanks!

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#129 of 198 Old 11-04-2004, 12:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mum2sarah
I feel the above quote by periwinkle is too broad. What I mean by that is what do you mean by "humans?" If some civilization years down the line had to sum up what "humans" ate now, they would say, "well, they were omnivores," but that doesn't mean that *none* of us are vegan
I mean humans. Since the "dawn of time" when we first walked upright. Forget Sally Fallon, just look in any natural history museum in the world to find an evolving variety of spears, arrowheads, clubs, fishing gear, axes specialized for skinning animals... you name it. Another great book on the subject is "Guns, Germs, and Steel", which traces human evolution and civilzation as to when various grains and animals were domesticated. Then look in the Bible or the Koran or any other religious text to find that even several thousand years ago we were eating dairy products, fish, animal products...

and, most importantly, even if you could make the argument that one person ate nothing but grains or tubers or something ....

Quote:
Regarding plants: Call me a bad vegan or human-centric, but I do tend to have a greater affinity for living things on a continuum scale based upon how similar they are to me.
This is your opinion. But animal is animal... whether close to you on the human continuum or not, in terms of protein, vitamins, type of fats, etc.. In other words, from a nutritional, not a moral, standpoint, eating yeast, bugs, larva, probiotics and organisims, worms, etc. is pretty much the same thing as eating parts of a cow or a pig. I was just trying to point out that the rise (very recent) in human santiation has caused some problems while solving others, namely, that for the first time in our human experience, you CAN eat fruit and vegetables and legumes and grains without the bugs, larva, etc. that naturally go along with them. My example of the "omnivore-but-grass eating cow" was meant to illustrate that point, i.e., even if 10,000 years ago humans only ate roots and grains (and I think there is ton of evidence that we didn't, but let's suppose we did), do you really think they had a salad spinner, fruit wash, a vegetable brush, microbe-free running water and a colander, not to mention tons of free time to clean them all with fastidiously? Anyone who's even been camping or spent a day on a beach knows you eat a lot of dirt and sand when you're out of the comforts of your sterile world LOL! Much less picking a potato out of the ground... yep, it's gonna be COVERED in dirt (and all the living goodies that go along with it).

I have a vegan SIL who doesn't eat any leavened bread because it contains yeast... doesn't eat cultured products because they contain probiotics... doesn't eat honey because it's an animal byproduct, etc. She won't even swat a mosquito. As a result, she takes tons of supplements each day because she recognizes that it is hard for her to get her vitamins and minerals in an easily digestible format. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with this, as clearly its her choice and one made for primarily moral as opposed to nutritional or taste reasons. But most vegans I know follow very different moral rules from one another... as you mentioned, you'd have problems eating an "animal" but none eating various other insects, larva, yeast, probiotics, etc. (from a moral, not taste standpoint of course!). I think humans have the capacity to make choices based on moral opinions, which is what led people like my SIL to choose a vegan lifestyle. But frankly if she were living in a tribe thousands of years ago, good luck avoiding animal products much less bug/larva/bacteria-filled dirt, etc. In other words, I think our civilization and education and relative affluence (compared to how our distant ancestors lived) allows us access to chosing veganism without sacrificing (necessarily) our health and in fact perhaps fostering it, for example, for those with high cholesterol or a tendency toward obesity.

I was really not trying to say that being a vegan TODAY is something bad, but that there is no evidence that I've read or seen from a variety of sources that this is a nutritional profile that humans **as a whole** have evolved with.
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#130 of 198 Old 11-04-2004, 12:55 PM
 
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periwinkle,
thanks for your clarification. I guess for me, there's a difference between bugs and other animals. I concede that perhaps that is very arbitrary of me. I do try not to kill insects in my house, but I have killed bees that get stuck in my house and I have killed mosquitos. Bugs, to me, seem like a more natural source of animal food for humans, considering our primate relatives' diets. I do not really go much by what I see in "natural history museums" for I feel they tend to glorify the hunting part of human history. IMO, I think it's more likely that in most moderate climates, humans were more "gatherer-hunters" than "hunter-gatherers," meaning that meat was eaten in porportionately much smaller amounts than plants, if for no other reason than the relative scarcity and effort man had to go to to eat meat. In fact I think this ratio of plant to animal is also closely tied to man's environment. Where we originally evolved, with lush vegetation, I would venture to guess the majority of our animal food was in the form of bugs. Surely when man moved to colder climates where vegetation was more scarce, he must have had to rely more on animal foods. I would eat whatever I had to to survive. I guess all I'm saying is that if I were in a tribe in the tropics with lots of other foods available, and my tribesman brought home a game animal that they had hunted and killed, I cannot see myself wanting to consume it. Maybe I would have eaten the bugs that got on my fruit, but I couldn't see myself wanting to eat larger animals. To me, it would just feel gross and unnatural (having to skin it and cook it, etc), and I am wondering if humans like me (not your SIL type extreme vegan) always existed in some form....

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#131 of 198 Old 11-07-2004, 12:08 AM
 
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I don't have a lot of choices when it comes to food. After my second pregnancy I developed sensitivity to all sorts of foods I used to like, including rice, some fish, shrimp, tofu, some green vegetables. I also absolutely can't tolerate any multi-vitamins and those nutritional drinks...etc. My son is allergic to fish, eggs, all nuts, shellfish, some seeds... We're basically switching to a bread, meat and veggies diet and everybody seems to be happy and getting enough nutrition. I guess to us it's a healthy diet.

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#132 of 198 Old 11-07-2004, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I just wanted to chime in that I dont think the argument that humans have always eaten animals to be a good one. Humans used to also think black people were slaves, women were property and the world is flat. I could go on and on.

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#133 of 198 Old 11-07-2004, 03:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sebastiansmommy
I just wanted to chime in that I dont think the argument that humans have always eaten animals to be a good one. Humans used to also think black people were slaves, women were property and the world is flat. I could go on and on.
I think this argument is very flawed though. When people say humans have always eaten meat they're not talking about the slave days (which actually really makes me sad that you tried to throw that in the mix). They're talking about the beginning of "Mankind." Tribal days, hunter/gatherer days. I think the argument that humans have always eaten meat is more than acceptabe. It's true. It's natural. There is no "right" here. It's an individual choice. I think there have been a lot of good things brought up here that speak well for both sides.
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#134 of 198 Old 11-07-2004, 06:30 PM
 
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I think Seb. Mom was just trying to make the point that human logic is flawed, and I agree. Although, I also prefer to follow more natural tribal ways where possible myself, as they are in general closer to nature, therefore more in touch with instinct and less with logic.

As another point, in case some haven't seen it - ya seen kentucky fried cruelty lately? It did me in. Totally. You can keep your chickens and no doubt I'll ditch other meat shortly too. Yuk. Humans can be horrible. Climbing off soap box now...

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#135 of 198 Old 11-07-2004, 08:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MamaAllNatural
I think this argument is very flawed though. When people say humans have always eaten meat they're not talking about the slave days (which actually really makes me sad that you tried to throw that in the mix.
Sebsmommy is far from the only one to compare human and animal slavery. Marjorie Spiegel has written a powerful book called The Dreaded Comparison that looks at the connection between these forms of oppression. Alice Walker wrote the introduction, and has also been outspoken on this issue.
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#136 of 198 Old 11-08-2004, 03:35 AM
 
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What is this?
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Originally Posted by kavamamakava
dahl and chapatis .
We are in a very rural area, no specialty shops, health food stores etc... just Walmart and a few local grocery stores that only carry Soy Milk.
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#137 of 198 Old 11-08-2004, 06:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kaydeesac
Sebsmommy is far from the only one to compare human and animal slavery. Marjorie Spiegel has written a powerful book called The Dreaded Comparison that looks at the connection between these forms of oppression. Alice Walker wrote the introduction, and has also been outspoken on this issue.
I have seen a quote of Alice Walker's on the subject. However, I will never feel comfortable with anyone comparing black people to animals. It just doesn't sit right with me. Also, Alice Walker's quote that I have read was not in quite the same vein as Sebastiansmommy's comments.

I think the point of my post was missed. I'll try again though. When people say that humans have always eaten meat they mean from the beginning of mankind. They mean the "primitive"/tribal/hunter/gatherer etc. people. That is why the comment she made was flawed.

I've got to be making sense to somebody here.
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#138 of 198 Old 11-08-2004, 09:06 AM
 
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You're making sense to me! In other words, eating meat is not some fad for our species. It has always been natural for us.

I, too, could do without the slavery comparison.

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#139 of 198 Old 11-08-2004, 09:38 AM
 
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"Be suspicious of people who claim to love motherhood...yardy yardy yarda!"

Why? Can't women that were abused and tortured by their mothers be good mums themselves? Well I am a terrific mum that would never hurt ANY child and I love motherhood ... so what if I have issues with my actual mother! I don't "always seem to hate" actual mothers - but you can hate the lack of one. Please don't quote things that may offend hormonal women with ptsd! Eat some meat and stop being so 'suspicious' - you gotta be suss on someone that would starve to death before eating an animal!!! Quote that!! (Sorry, just venting here!)
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#140 of 198 Old 11-08-2004, 10:01 AM
 
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I'm not eligible for this poll, but if I was responding to the question ‘why are you vegan’, I would say because it’s possible for me to live healthily without eating any animal products.

I have difficulty with the ‘we’ve always eaten meat’ argument. Why not make your decisions based on today’s possibilities? And are those in the ‘plants feel pain’ camp saying there’s no point in being vegetarian, because everything feels pain? The responses I admire most are from people who are a) honest with themselves about their choices and b) taking steps to make their choices ethical ones.
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#141 of 198 Old 11-08-2004, 11:03 AM
 
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If someone has said that plants feel pain, please quote them.

I do believe that I am making ethical choices. If I thought that eating meat were any less ethical than eating plants, I wouldn't do it.

-Alice, SAHM to dd (2001) and ds (2004) each of whom was a homebirth.jpg, who each self-weaned at 4.5 years bfolderchild.gif, who both fambedsingle2.gif'd, who were bothcd.gif, and both: novaxnocirc.gif.   Also, gd.gif, and goorganic.jpg!

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#142 of 198 Old 11-08-2004, 12:49 PM
 
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I agree with Sustainer.

I also wanted to add that I don't agree personally with "eating meat at any cost". No, I don't eat veal or force-fed lamb or goose livers. But would I eat a chicken who has lived a better lifestyle than me? YES! Would I eat grass-fed, pastured, organic beef? Yes! I think there's a difference and I do want the animals I and my family eats to be healthy and well cared for, for both ethical and nutritional reasons.

MamaAllNatutral, yes you're making sense to me on the eating animals / slavery argument. I don't understand how something some humans have been doing for a blink of the eye from an evolutionary perspective can be compared to how we all have lived since we first walked upright carrying our giant animal-slaying club and wearing our animal pelt for warmth. I also think comparing a certain human race or religion to animals to be racist itself... like there's no difference between shackling a man and yoking a water buffalo. Nice. So I guess now if I keep a gypsy moth caterpillar in a cage with leaves and sticks to show dd and ds how it spins a cocoon, etc.... that I'm equivalent to a slave owner. Oh, and I'd love to hear about this from people who, um, ya know, OWN pets for their own pleasure and amusement.
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#143 of 198 Old 11-08-2004, 12:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Periwinkle
I don't understand how something some humans have been doing for a blink of the eye from an evolutionary perspective can be compared to how we all have lived since we first walked upright carrying our giant animal-slaying club and wearing our animal pelt for warmth. I also think comparing a certain human race or religion to animals to be racist itself... like there's no difference between shackling a man and yoking a water buffalo. Nice. So I guess now if I keep a gypsy moth caterpillar in a cage with leaves and sticks to show dd and ds how it spins a cocoon, etc.... that I'm equivalent to a slave owner. Oh, and I'd love to hear about this from people who, um, ya know, OWN pets for their own pleasure and amusement.
Exactly. ITA.

-Alice, SAHM to dd (2001) and ds (2004) each of whom was a homebirth.jpg, who each self-weaned at 4.5 years bfolderchild.gif, who both fambedsingle2.gif'd, who were bothcd.gif, and both: novaxnocirc.gif.   Also, gd.gif, and goorganic.jpg!

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#144 of 198 Old 11-08-2004, 01:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Periwinkle
Oh, and I'd love to hear about this from people who, um, ya know, OWN pets for their own pleasure and amusement.
I'm on the same page as you and sustainer etc. with the meat eating issue, but I just wanted to point out -- it is my understanding that PETA (or, at least, some PETA members) are against pet ownership.

I'm about to call my friendly local organic/free range farmer to see about placing and order for a side of beef. We've visited her farm a few times, those animals have it nice.

Mom to DS(14), DS(12), DD(9), DS(6), DS (4), and DS(2)  

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#145 of 198 Old 11-08-2004, 02:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brisen
I just wanted to point out -- it is my understanding that PETA (or, at least, some PETA members) are against pet ownership.
If anything, I've noticed that people who claim that it's wrong to eat meat are MORE likely to be pet owners. The most flaming animal rights activist I know has 3 cats. I do find it hypocritical, especially when they talk about slavery.

-Alice, SAHM to dd (2001) and ds (2004) each of whom was a homebirth.jpg, who each self-weaned at 4.5 years bfolderchild.gif, who both fambedsingle2.gif'd, who were bothcd.gif, and both: novaxnocirc.gif.   Also, gd.gif, and goorganic.jpg!

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#146 of 198 Old 11-08-2004, 05:49 PM
 
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Sicne there's a lot of high-falutin' misinformation being slung about here, I'll clarify on the "pet" issue.

PETA (and many other AR organizations) oppose the term "ownership" for a variety of reasons, both philosophical and legal. We view ourselves as guardians of animals, not as owners of "things."

AR activists DO oppose the *breeding* of companion animals when there are so many in dire need of homes. Most of us do rescue homeless or abused companion animals. Where is the hypocrisy in this?

Most AR people I know feed their dogs a vegetarian diet, as dogs are naturally omnivores and most adapt well to not eating meat. To what degree cats are obligate carnivores is a subject of debate in the AR movement. Some have successfully placed cats on a vegan diet; others adamantly oppose this. I tried to have my (rescued) cats go vegan; they wouldn't do it. My compromise is to only buy them game meat-based cat food, so I am not supporting factory farming (or any animal agriculture) by caring for them.

I wish people would get their facts straight--or even just **ask** for more information--before painting a group with such broad brushstrokes. :
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#147 of 198 Old 11-08-2004, 06:19 PM
 
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Karen, thank you for clarifying the AR and PETA stances. If you go back and read what we were all reacting to, it was a comment that an animal doing work for humans or being kept by humans or being penned/raised to be eaten is animal slavery, which ultimately is akin to human slavery. I know all I was trying to do was point out that owning pets (even if you don't call it "own") is the same thing. Cats and dogs, for example have been BRED over thousands of years to produce a species uniquely tailored for human enjoyment and ownership. That's where I go *IF* those same people are saying that yoking a cow to plough a field is animal slavery, and worse, that this is no different than being a slave owner in 1830. It looks like we're somewhat on the same page since you said AR activists condemn animal breeding... but I guess, trying to follow the argument of some of the PPs, I would just say back that can't you question the morality of owning ANY pet whether or not you were the one doing the breeding? In other words, if I adopt a greyhound (dog bred for racing... treated inhumanely on the track circuit, etc.) from a greyhound rescue, am I perpetuating this "animal slavery" or not??? What does the act of adoption (ownership) change about the cause of the problem? It's like saying you wouldn't "breed" or "buy" a slave, but if you "rescued" one found beaten in the woods and gave him a home, then you'd be right to keep him for your pleasure and/or use forever? HUH? Again, I 100% wholeheartedly do not agree with this line of reasoning, but I bring it up trying to tear apart the keeping animals = animal slavery = human slavery argument, which is how pet ownership came up since yes, most people I know who are vegan for ethical reasons own pets.
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#148 of 198 Old 11-08-2004, 06:25 PM
 
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Whether it's called ownership or guardianship and whether they're called pets or animal companions, we're still talking about a situation that is more comprable to slavery than the consumption of meat is.

-Alice, SAHM to dd (2001) and ds (2004) each of whom was a homebirth.jpg, who each self-weaned at 4.5 years bfolderchild.gif, who both fambedsingle2.gif'd, who were bothcd.gif, and both: novaxnocirc.gif.   Also, gd.gif, and goorganic.jpg!

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#149 of 198 Old 11-08-2004, 06:30 PM
 
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can we PLEASE stop comparing African American humans to dogs and other animals? i know i'm not the only person who has felt uncomfortable about this. even if you don't agree w/ the analogy, using it to make a point is distasteful to say the least and even offensive.

i'm unsub'ing from this thread now.
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#150 of 198 Old 11-08-2004, 06:31 PM
 
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OMG I totally agree!!! Please don't unsubscribe!! I hope I didn't offend you, I was trying to show how ridiculous and offensive that argument is, i.e., I am HIGHLY offended by people saying that! Please see my previous post where I said it was extremely racist itself to make that argument. I think most of us agree.
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