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NT Mamas January Thread!

10K views 242 replies 37 participants last post by  myjo 
#1 ·
I thought I would start the January thread off today before I head into the kitchen to make french toast with my slow risen sourdough!

Happy New Year everyone!
 
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#177 ·
hrheka, dd says she wants to try liver and tongue. I have no idea where she came up with this, or even knows these are food options. ANYWAY, let me know if you come up with a decent liver recipe. My mom used to cook it occasionally, and it was...less than desirable (the cats loved it, though).

ETA: hey, KatzMama, I don't think she's going to go for liver and onions, unless the onions are really sweet and she doesn't figure out what they are.
 
#178 ·
liverThe quality of the liver makes all the difference, so if you can find a good source, it's not going to taste at all like mom used to make. I rinse mine and let it sit in lemon juice (for however long I think to do it which is usually an hour). I bread it lightly with a mixture of flour, salt, and pepper (or at least I used to do this). I cook the onions on high until they are carmelized, set them aside. Add liver to pan, let it cook for a few, add water, put on lid and let it steam/simmer for another 5 or so. Turn it over, put lid on, maybe more water. Cook until it's done. There's the rub. I just cut it open sometimes and pull it off when it is ever-so-pink. I set the liver aside and make a gravy. I put it all together and it's pretty darned good.

By the way, I have found that it makes a huge difference in my energy. I haven't had any in a couple of weeks.
: I will head to the freezer now. Thanks for the reminder.
 
#179 ·
Anyone try the raw liver suggestions? I thought of this idea, even though I haven't gone down the liver road yet: How about marinating the liver in something acidic then slicing into slivers and flash searing then using as a topping for a kale salad? I know it sounds odd, but isn't raw or very rare liver better for us?
 
#180 ·
I have a question that's been on my mind for a while...

I teach yoga and my teacher always said that we needed to consult three sources before we could consider something to be "truth." Basically she didn't want us to read something in one book and then teach it as if it was THE yogic philosophy.

I've found that rule of three to be pretty helpful so I'm wondering who else (besides Sally, WAP society and all the related spin-off groups) agrees with the principles of NT.

NT makes so much sense to me. I keep hoping to pick up a cookbook off the shelf and have it tell me to soak my grains/nuts for maximum health benefits but I've never seen it anywhere else.


Darn...screeching baby. Not sure if this made sense but I'll just throw it out there.

ETA:

DD is sleeping...let me try to clarify a little.

I have read plenty of sources that talk about the health benefits of products from pasture-fed animals. I've also found plenty on using full fat dairy in moderation as opposed to skim, lowfat etc.

What I haven't found elsewhere is discussion of phytic acid...soaking grains/nuts/legumes etc.
 
#181 ·
dharmama, I've seen the bit about soaking grains, nuts and seeds to start the sprouting process in other books. Some are the books that Sally Fallon drew upon to write NT (some of the books she quotes in the margins -- I've read some of those books). I've also seen this info in the raw foodist literature.

Of course, where did the raw foodies get this info? Maybe they read the same books as Sally Fallon? What degree of separation do we need to consider it truly 3 separate sources?

You could give your yoga teacher a riff about the interconnectedness of all life, and how it would be inherently impossible to find 3 sources that are truly separate.
 
#182 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Queen Gwen
dharmama, I've seen the bit about soaking grains, nuts and seeds to start the sprouting process in other books. Some are the books that Sally Fallon drew upon to write NT (some of the books she quotes in the margins -- I've read some of those books). I've also seen this info in the raw foodist literature.

Of course, where did the raw foodies get this info? Maybe they read the same books as Sally Fallon? What degree of separation do we need to consider it truly 3 separate sources?

You could give your yoga teacher a riff about the interconnectedness of all life, and how it would be inherently impossible to find 3 sources that are truly separate.

:LOL Good points!


My aunt and I were talking about some of Sally's sources (listen to me talking like we're on a first name basis :LOL) and how they all cross-reference each other. I'm just trying to figure out why more nutritional "experts" aren't talking more about traditional diets.

Anyway...just


My sourdough starter is finally looking ready. Thanks for that link to sourdough home moss.
 
#183 ·
I'm re-reading what I wrote, and gotta add this: I think you had a really good point in asking why no one else is talking about this. Is this just one of those theories/fads that will die out because it's just based on someone's theories, which could have some flaw of logic? Or, will some of this be proven out in independent work?

I find myself thinking along these lines a lot. Dh follows the Swank diet for MS. Swank did tons of research that no one else has really followed up on. Some of his conclusions seem to fly in the face of some of the stuff I read in NT (the stuff about fats; dh is heavily into enzymes, so he's pro-NT there). So, which is right?
 
#184 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by dharmama
I'm just trying to figure out why more nutritional "experts" aren't talking more about traditional diets.
I think part of the issue here may be that because these things are "traditional", they were handed down as common wisdom for common people, not written down or researched. Nutritional science now is so heavily funded and influenced by the food processing industry (which really wants us to think white flour, sugar, and pasteurized processed cheese food product are good foods) that it's an uphill battle to do or say anything that contradicts it. A lot of this food tradition was passed down orally, Weston Price was unique in studying it in various cultures and writing about it comprehensively. Many sources quote Price (or espouse some of the practices even if they don't mention his name), but I think Sally and her cohorts were the first to take what he wrote as a whole picture and translate it to our modern lives. Aside from Price, I think there are very few written sources of food traditions as practiced by our (healthier) ancestors. Very few modern nutritional practices are based on tradition beyond the last few decades, even those traditions that allowed people to live largely free of the degenerative diseases plaguing modern people.
 
#185 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Queen Gwen
Is this just one of those theories/fads that will die out because it's just based on someone's theories, which could have some flaw of logic? Or, will some of this be proven out in independent work?
I'm not waiting for "independent" science (which seems an oxymoron these days) to validate eating the way that makes me feel good and healthy. As for fads, I don't see how the things talked about in NT could be considered as such, because all those practices have been around for so long in other cultures all over the world. Isolated soy protein - now there's a fad.
 
#186 ·
I have seen the NT concepts in many cookbooks and health texts. Some off hand are:
The Ten Talents cookbook
Dr Jensen's Soup and Salad book
Raw: The Uncook book
The Sprout Garden
Wild Fermentation
Healthy Gourmet Recipes (Paul Bragg)
South Indian Cuisine (I think thats the name)
Joy of Cooking

I have read up alot on soaking and fermentation and it, up to the point of finding NT, was always sourced in old german cookbooks from my gramma.

I will write more later...off to playgroup.

 
#187 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Queen Gwen
So, which is right?
I think they both can be. I really prefer Dr. Price's book to Sally Fallon or even the WAP website for information, and seeing the diets he recorded in the different areas. They are so different from each other in many different ways. Take, for instance, the Gaelic diet. They had mostly codfish and oats -- little if any milk, and what vegetables they could grow there. They were one of the healthy people he found -- he wrote about how kind they were, how cheerful in spite of their obstacles. No butter or cultured milk products for them, yet they were healthy. No coconut or olive oils. Just fish, oatmeal, oat cakes, and some vegetables.

There are many factors, imo, that influence what foods are healthiest for any individual -- genetics, geographical location, age, needs (pg? nursing?), past diet.... No two people are going to be the same. I might get in trouble for mentioning this on the NT thread, but nt a la Fallon may not even be the best for everyone. If your dh's diet is working for him, great. NT/traditional foods works (mostly) for me. My dh can't stand fat in meat, butter on everything like I like it. We get meat now from an organic farmer, and it was well-marbled, a good amount (imo) of fat on it. We had been purchasing lean roasts at the store for so long, it was a welcome change for me, but he found it gross. So we're like Jack Sprat and his wife, and it works out. He does, however, eat a lot of dairy. I like butter, cheese, and yogurt, and cream on things, but don't drink a lot of milk on its own. He's a bread-and-milk guy, like his dad, who will literally sit down and eat a bowl of bread bits with milk poured over it.

Oh, in addition, I think that our sedentary lifestyle really does impact what foods we need. I find nt works for me because I've been pg, nursing, and tandeming for the last 5 years without a break, and also babywearing, and running around after kids. Not as much work as people in times past -- I do have a car for transportation, and my gardening is limited to a little area of flowers that I mostly let run wild after I've planted anyway -- but still, my life is pretty cushy. In the winter, I have baseboard heaters and lots of outerwear to warm me, I don't need fat to help out. I think I would be healthier if I did do more work and strenuous exercise, and that would definately justify my diet.

Just my thoughts.

And I agree with the pps who pointed out that this "diet" has long traditions in various cultures to back it up. Not that I completely distrust modern science, but there have been so many things where they say "This is what you should do -- science proves it!" then a few years later they're all "Oh, that research has been disproved, now this is what you should do -- science proves it!" I tend to trust what centries of tradition has tested as opposed to what a few years (decades, at most) of science has tested.
 
#188 ·
I'm thinking of starting a yahoo group so we can use the files feature to store recipes/ideas we're sharing here. I, personally, would find that easier (I think) than searching through old threads here. Would anybody be interested? If there is interest, I'll get it started & post a link.
 
#189 ·
Quote:
I'm thinking of starting a yahoo group so we can use the files feature to store recipes/ideas we're sharing here. I, personally, would find that easier (I think) than searching through old threads here. Would anybody be interested? If there is interest, I'll get it started & post a link.
Great idea!
 
#192 ·
Brisen and everyone who commented on Dharmama's comment, that was all very interesting.

Specifically about phytic acid, Dharamama, here are some of my thoughts:

Phytic acid levels in food wouldn't be a problem for the majority of people because most people don't eat many whole grains at all. This would be enough to explain why there isn't much information in the mainstream about it.

Phytic acid may not really be a problem for anybody because what it does is bind the minerals in the whole grain that includes it. If you are eating whole wheat bread with beef and green vegetables, the fact that you're losing out on the iron and zinc in the bread may not affect your health at all - you still may be getting more than you need in the rest of your meal. I think that this may be the most important question and it is where NT seems to veer away from most other sources of info.

There certainly is research being done on phytic acid, and morst of what NT says about it seems to be backed up elsewhere - that phytates or phytic acid binds minerals in food, that it can be neutralised through soaking and sprouting, although there is not agreement on how effective these methods are.

Work on phytate reduction seems to be concentrated in those areas where people do need to get every last bit of nutrition out of their food - feeding people in famine areas, and weaning foods for babies in developing countries. Also, I saw a lot of stuff on the net about low-phytate animal feed - because it's cheaper to give animals more nutritious food, and because phospates bound up in food, that aren't used by the animal, end up as polluting poop.

I guess that I've concluded that since one of the main reasons I eat and feed my family whole grains is because of the mineral content - (otherwise, I would eat white bread more often) - that I might as well take a few steps to get more out of my food.

But I also feel frustrated at the lack of information in this area.
 
#193 ·
I've been thinking a lot about oats (I know, get a life). NT says that lactobaccili and enzymes both have a role in phytate reduction, so even if the oat groats themselves have no native enzymes left (because of being previously steamed or roasted), if one is adding something like kefir to the soaking water then phytate reduction should still occur, just as when soaking oats for porridge. I don't know if any of the enzymes in kefir would be the same as those naturally in grains (and which are activated in a warm, wet environment), but you at least have the lactobaccili and acid. I'm unclear on the role of acid in the soaking medium, but NT calls for all grain soaking to be done with warm, acidulated water. If the study showing no significant phytate reduction from soaking whole grains used plain water, I don't see how it would apply, since we're not using plain water. Also, as for the matter of grains being whole when soaked rather than ground, the phytate content is in the bran (outer) layer, so the soaking medium should have no trouble penetrating that layer and doing its work. Maybe in the future I'll add a tiny bit of wheat for grain enzymes.

I'm going to continue to soak whole oat groats in water with kefir added, then dry and grind or flake them. I used them in a recipe just yesterday that turned out really nice, so I'll share it with you all. I'm calling them oatcakes, although I suspect they're not much like the recipe Catarina posted (which I intend to try). I wanted something very slightly sweet, dry but not hard, and easy. This fit the bill, I'm happy it turned out how I wanted 'cuz I was just winging it.

Maple Oatcakes

(These were made with whole oat groats that I soaked in water with kefir for about 18 hours, then dried and ground into flour with a grain mill.)

8 oz. ground oats*, plus about another 1/4 cup for kneading
1/2 tsp finely-ground sea salt
4 oz. cold unsalted butter, cubed (8 Tbsp)
1/8 cup maple syrup (2 Tbsp)

*this weight in oats amounted to about 2 cups ground, not packed, just the way it fell out of the grain mill and shaken slightly to level the top so I could see how many cups it was, I made it an even 8 oz. on the scale by adjusting by just a pinch, you could weight it before grinding as well, I don't know how much it was in volume before grinding

Place 8 oz. ground oats and salt in workbowl of food processor, pulse briefly to mix. Add cubed butter, pulse several times until evenly distributed but still coarse in texture. Add maple syrup, pulse briefly to mix, just until dough comes together. It will be slightly sticky at this point. Sprinkle remaining 1/4 cup oats on a board, turn dough out onto it and knead just until it gets less sticky and holds together better. Form into 1" balls, flatten each ball to about 1/4" thick on baking sheet lined with parchment paper. Brush tops with additional maple syrup if desired. Bake at 300 degrees F for 30 min.

I'm sure this could be made without using a food processor, it would just take longer, and you'd want to cut the butter in with a pastry blender so it doesn't melt with the heat from your hands, I think keeping the butter cold was part of what made these so tender, similar to why you want to keep the fat cold when making a pastry crust. You could perhaps adjust the baking temp and time as well, I wanted them cooked and dried out but not very browned so I kept it low and slow. These turned out very tender, just slightly sweet, and the flavors of oats and maple go together very well, they were a huge hit with my husband and our 5 year old. They were easy (in spite of my long-winded description), I think I spent less than 15 min. on prep.
 
#194 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Catarina
I guess that I've concluded that since one of the main reasons I eat and feed my family whole grains is because of the mineral content - (otherwise, I would eat white bread more often) - that I might as well take a few steps to get more out of my food.

But I also feel frustrated at the lack of information in this area.
I agree, and I also feel that all of us fall into the category of needing to get every last bit of nutrition out of our food, because the soil has become so depleted in most farming areas (even most organically-managed soils are not restored), and our pollution levels and toxic burden are so high in modern times, that we need all the help we can get.
 
#195 ·
AJP, Toraji said something similar about the lactobacteria helping to break down the phytates. I guess that I had forgotten that and was thinking that the whey etc was there to bring down the pH.

Anyway, that recipe sounds nice. Do you have a dehydrator, or do you use a slow oven to dry the oats? I don't have a grain grinder, and I was wondering what I could do with the wet, soaked grains in a blender, Ezekial bread style.
 
#196 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brisen
I'm thinking of starting a yahoo group so we can use the files feature to store recipes/ideas we're sharing here. I, personally, would find that easier (I think) than searching through old threads here. Would anybody be interested? If there is interest, I'll get it started & post a link.
Are you already on the Native Family Nutrition yahoo list? If so, maybe you could store the files there. It is a fairly low-volume list (about five-10 messages a day) and they don't have much stored in the Files section. And they are all Nourishing Traditions fans who would enjoy the archived messages.

LeeAnn
 
#198 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brisen
So we're like Jack Sprat and his wife, and it works out.
Us too. I absolutely crave fats, but dh really prefers all of his fat cut off the meat. I've honestly formed the opinion that women simply need more fat in their diets than men. And this probably cycles based on what time of the month it is. And what time of year. And whether a woman is pregnant or nursing.
I've very significantly increased my fat intake since reading NT (and of course it's really freaking cold here right now) - if I had to guess, I'd say about 50% (or maybe a bit more) of my diet is fat, mostly animal fat, and I feel better than I have in a long time, especially at this time of year. I'm also nursing a 1 year old who barely eats any solids right now, so that may be why I crave fats as strongly as I do. And I'm still losing weight. I'm actually under my prepregnancy weight, and I was described as skinny even before I got pregnant. Funny, isn't it.
And yet, in the summer I could happily very rarely eat meat, if at all, and feel great. In fact, I think I will start putting a lot of effort into cycling my diet based on seasons in my location. Unfortunately, I don't think I can really look to First Nations native diets in this location, because I'm pretty sure they were nomadic and noone actually lived here over winter (someone correct me if I'm wrong? I'm in Saskatchewan).
But my husband, who is also losing weight since we started eating the NT way, probably still only has fat as around 20% of his diet. We're just two different people, with different needs. And he's starting to look realllllly good
- in fact, I swear he's actually looking younger!
Okay, so that's my blurb on eating what your instincts tell you to
 
#199 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Catarina
Phytic acid levels in food wouldn't be a problem for the majority of people because most people don't eat many whole grains at all. This would be enough to explain why there isn't much information in the mainstream about it.

Phytic acid may not really be a problem for anybody because what it does is bind the minerals in the whole grain that includes it. If you are eating whole wheat bread with beef and green vegetables, the fact that you're losing out on the iron and zinc in the bread may not affect your health at all - you still may be getting more than you need in the rest of your meal. I think that this may be the most important question and it is where NT seems to veer away from most other sources of info.

There certainly is research being done on phytic acid, and morst of what NT says about it seems to be backed up elsewhere - that phytates or phytic acid binds minerals in food, that it can be neutralised through soaking and sprouting, although there is not agreement on how effective these methods are.

Work on phytate reduction seems to be concentrated in those areas where people do need to get every last bit of nutrition out of their food - feeding people in famine areas, and weaning foods for babies in developing countries. Also, I saw a lot of stuff on the net about low-phytate animal feed - because it's cheaper to give animals more nutritious food, and because phospates bound up in food, that aren't used by the animal, end up as polluting poop.
ITA, this is what I feel too. But even the vegan Dr. Klaper addresses the issue here: http://www.geocities.com/beforewisdo...sDrKlaper.html

Another person that talks about phytic acid/fermentation is Bill Mollison, one of the founders of permaculture:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...67954?v=glance

On a separate note, Brisen ITA with your thoughts on not all people doing well on a strict NT diet. We are all different, and require different inputs of energy according to our needs.
 
#201 ·
Oooo, I just got Eat Fat, Lose Fat by Mary Enig and Sally Fallon in the mail. Having spent about 3 minutes looking it over, I'm very excited! Get this, I flipped it open to Health Recovery, where it gives a day-by-day start up plan...for example, Day Five: make chicken stock and homemade whey; Day Six: make coconut kefir, beet kvass, sauerkrauet; Day Seven: make beef stock, kombucha or kefir gingerale, coconut crackers. It then follows with menus of what to eat for the next 14 days. I swear, it's like NT for Dummies, which is PERFECT for me.

I consistently blow it on scheduling what to do when...like I forgot to soak and sprout the wheat berries on Wednesday so I could dry them Thursday, then grind for dough on Friday. How tough is it to remember such simple little steps?
:

Must go read now...just wanted to share with folks who would understand my excitement.
 
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