Soy is bad for you, Soy is bad for your children - Page 3 - Mothering Forums
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#61 of 139 Old 01-11-2005, 06:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mz_libbie22
Actually the effects of too much soy during pregnancy on boy babies are more along the lines of infertility and other problems, not "small penises."
Actually, MIL was wondering if his larger size compared to his small cousin was from soy
She had read somewhere that it can be a cause of deformity for little boys.
Gotta love worrying MIL

Due with number 5 in August. We do all that crunchy stuff.
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#62 of 139 Old 01-11-2005, 06:39 PM
 
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I just wanted to quote this so it won't get lost.
good idea

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#63 of 139 Old 01-11-2005, 06:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mountain mom
I reread you post again Vegiemom and I get the strongest inclination that you think that the way the Inuit live is below you.

**Not true. I would think of them like I think of anyone else, from anywhere else. With the ability to change/grow/think. With the ability to live however they want! Are you really saying that an inuit would not survive anywhere where fish isn't available? I come from a long line of farmers. They've been doing it since before coming to this country. Any one of them will say that they cannot survive without meat. I'm a vegetarian and I've been a vegan for a long period of time and I'm here to tell ya I'm doing fine.!

I am sure some love living where they are, some don't, some don't know anybetter, some do. Quite frankly that is sooo irrelevant.

* I don't think it's irrevelant! I couldn't breathe and suffered from living at high altitude... so I moved!

I wanted to try to open up some dialouge about culture, climate, demographic etc.

.
I think we've gone WAAAAY off topic anyway! BUT that idea IS interesting for sure. The idea that different folks from different areas require (or I should say strongly desire) different things. Maybe a new thread on that subject?

ps- just wanted to let you know that I responded to your quote WITHIN the quote box!
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#64 of 139 Old 01-11-2005, 06:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mountain mom
Vegiemom, Its called anthropology not racism. C'Mon certainly you have heard about how culture and demographic affect your predispostion to eating capablities?

You should really check out some David Sukuki.

So, the Inuit are anatomically different? If that's the casel, if when torn apart their make-up is not the same as eveyrone elses, then SURE I could believe they'd not survive on a meat-free diet.
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#65 of 139 Old 01-11-2005, 06:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by vegiemom
ackkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk... Okay, do they realize that other people live differently or are they totally ignorant to the rest of the world? If they are aware of their options... than they can make different choices (ie- what they where, where they live, etc etc etc). IF they are simply unaware that any other options exiist.... than maybe they need some education there!

So people who care about their cultural traditions and way of life are ignorant huh? Maybe some native people DON'T WANT to conform to your idea of what's acceptable. Why exactly do you feel that you know what's better for them? Seems to me that the more people move away from their traditional way of eating the more unhealthy they become. Do you actually believe that the Eskimos haven't physically adapted to eating lots of fish and seal meat? Why should they be encouraged to avoid foods that are a part of their traditional diets??
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#66 of 139 Old 01-11-2005, 06:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by vegiemom
So, the Inuit are anatomically different? If that's the casel, if when torn apart their make-up is not the same as eveyrone elses, then SURE I could believe they'd not survive on a meat-free diet.
Think of it this way: if you moved up there, you would have a hard time following your current diet. If they moved out of such a harsh climate, their needs would change.

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#67 of 139 Old 01-11-2005, 06:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Gale Force
If I am interpreting vegiemom correctly, the argument is that vegetarianism is the higher value so if you are living in a climate where it is not possible, you should move.
Yah, I think! If one doesn't WANT to kill another being to eat... then one (in this day and in this age...) has the ability to MOVE. To make different choices and provide different options for ones self.
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#68 of 139 Old 01-11-2005, 06:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Gale Force
Think of it this way: if you moved up there, you would have a hard time following your current diet. If they moved out of such a harsh climate, their needs would change.
Right! I'm in agreement. And that's WHY I wouldn't move there!
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#69 of 139 Old 01-11-2005, 07:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by vegiemom
ackkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk... Okay, do they realize that other people live differently or are they totally ignorant to the rest of the world? If they are aware of their options... than they can make different choices (ie- what they where, where they live, etc etc etc). IF they are simply unaware that any other options exiist.... than maybe they need some education there! I WAS living in Colorado but didn't like the lifestyle, the mountains, etc. So, I MOVED!
nak. you would actually expect a native population to give up their culture???
i call that racism!!
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#70 of 139 Old 01-11-2005, 07:21 PM
 
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I thought I had your argument right. Just wanted to make sure.

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#71 of 139 Old 01-11-2005, 07:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mz_libbie22
So people who care about their cultural traditions and way of life are ignorant huh? Maybe some native people DON'T WANT to conform to your idea of what's acceptable. Why exactly do you feel that you know what's better for them? Seems to me that the more people move away from their traditional way of eating the more unhealthy they become. Do you actually believe that the Eskimos haven't physically adapted to eating lots of fish and seal meat? Why should they be encouraged to avoid foods that are a part of their traditional diets??

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#72 of 139 Old 01-11-2005, 07:31 PM
 
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"The following quotes, from this thread, kind of go that way in my mind:


Quote:
Dietary cholesterol contributes to the strength of the intestinal wall and helps babies and children develop a healthy brain and nervous system.

i.e. - kids need cholesterol (found only in animal products)"


****Yes, everyone needs cholesterol. That's not an insult, that's a biological fact. Some people's bodies don't produce enough of it on their own, so they would have a pretty hard time on a vegan diet.





"Quote:
Eggs are nature's perfect food, providing excellent protein, the gamut of nutrients and important fatty acids that contribute to the health of the brain and nervous system. Americans had less heart disease when they ate more eggs. Egg substitutes cause rapid death in test animals.

i.e - feed your kids eggs (vegan substitutes cause "rapid death")"


****Egg substitute* does not equal *vegan substitute*. They're talking about egg white or powdered egg substitutes that are made for people looking to avoid cholesterol, not vegan substitutes for eggs in baked goods, which would include ground flax seeds mixed in water (hardly unhealthy).


"Quote:
30% calories as fat is too low for most people, leading to low blood sugar and fatigue. Traditional diets contained 40% to 80% of calories as healthy fats, mostly of animal origin.

i.e. - diets lacking in animal fats lead to low blood sugar & fatigue"



*****Yeah, for alot of people they probably would. That's not an insult.


"Quote:
Most of the groups promoting veganism (like PETA) are pushing a diet full of fake dairy and meat products (and Fritos ) in their pamphlets. So, there are alot of new vegans who are relying on these processed foods to maintain their lifestyle. I found it impossible to be vegan after deciding to go off of soy.

Sorry, you may not have meant it this way, but this comes across to me as, 'vegan diets are usually full of Fritos & crap food & it is basically impossible for most people to be vegan unless they eat a lot of soy.'


****Um, yeah I also said TWICE in that post that there are vegans out there who do fine without any soy. I never meant to imply that vegan diets are "full of Fritos", I said that some promoters of veganism are using fake meats/dairy and vegan junk foods to make veganism seem less restrictive. I think this could cause alot of new vegans, especially teens and college age kids, to rely on lots of junk food instead of whole foods.



"Quote:
The way of eating that my family and I follow is the way most societies have been sustained for thousands of year...we eat traditional natural organic whole foods...When you eat good, whole food, the way God intended food to be, new fangled man made things like soy food products kind of become a non-issue."


****Okay, I'm pretty sure this is the WP site quote, so I should mention that they are talking about ALL processed food, not just Boca Burgers. WP and Sally Fannon are NOT as anti-soy as you think. They are simply anti-processed food. If you read Nourishing Traditions you'd find recipes using tofu and miso and even a veggie lentil-pecan burger recipe.




"Quote:
I am finally over a vegan-diet-induced three year case of depression in pregnancy and postpartum.

i.e. - vegan diets are in some way deficient & cause depression, etc."


****So, it's not possible for some people to become unhealthy on a vegan diet? Or is it just your opinion that if they do, they shouldn't be allowed to discuss it here?




"These discussions of diets that have "sustained populations for generations" always smack of 'other diets are not proven to sustain people & my diet it superior' and even 'God wants us to eat meat,' which I find personally very offensive. Maybe that is b/c my six year old has actually had children in her classes tell her that God wants her to eat meat."


****Eww, if anyone said that here I'd throw a fit. BUT no one has said anything to that effect (IMO) so I think you are being a little overly sensitive. I think people should be able to discuss their experiences on different types of diets freely here. I also don't think that the ex-veg people here believe vegetarianism is unhealthy for everyone, just *them*.
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#73 of 139 Old 01-11-2005, 07:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by vegiemom
**Eggs? How are they inhumane if you have your own chickens or get them from a small hen-owner with a dozen chickens and no rooster? I do agree wiht you about dairy- and I'm ashamed that I do consume it occasionally and in small quantities. I'm sure it's a black cloud following me and I accept any beatings a vegan may want to give me for consuming dairy... :
Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Where are those lovely laying hens coming from? They come from a hatchery. And for every female layer, a male chick is born. What happens to those male chicks? It's death for the ones that don't get bought to be roosters. I have never met anyone who caught a wild chicken to start a home flock. And if you get your chickens from someone who is breeding their own chickens, then they obviously need a rooster. At any rate, the source is "dirty".

Philosophically, a chicken is enslaved to its owner and stuck in a laying cycle. At best it is a pet. Think of it this way: which has the better life, a deer running in the wild, enjoying life as it is meant to be as an animal, or a domesticated chicken, bred specifically to produce food for humans and be docile, to give up her eggs willingly, hanging out in a fenced perimeter/coop? How is that in any way a natural animal life?
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#74 of 139 Old 01-11-2005, 07:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by vegiemom
ackkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk... Okay, do they realize that other people live differently or are they totally ignorant to the rest of the world? If they are aware of their options... than they can make different choices (ie- what they where, where they live, etc etc etc). IF they are simply unaware that any other options exiist.... than maybe they need some education there! I WAS living in Colorado but didn't like the lifestyle, the mountains, etc. So, I MOVED!
Let them eat cake.
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#75 of 139 Old 01-11-2005, 08:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Gale Force
The diet changed my life. I hope you veg*ns are able to be so for life. It didn't work out for me. I am finally over a vegan-diet-induced three year case of depression in pregnancy and postpartum.
HI! I'm a vegetarian. Have been one all my life and don't see that ever changing. My parents were vegetarians before I was born and still are. My grandmother hardly ate any meat and was raised by a vegetarian father. I come from a long line of vegetarians starting with my great grandfather. I am extremely healthy. I have 4 extremely healthy vegetarian siblings and between the 5 of us, we have 12 beautiful and healthy vegetarian children. I can't imagine that any of us will ever quit being vegetarians.
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#76 of 139 Old 01-11-2005, 08:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by toraji
Let them eat cake.
ROTFLMAO

Sorry. Couldn't hold it in.

Still laughing.

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#77 of 139 Old 01-11-2005, 08:06 PM
 
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It's nice to meet you, kavamamakava.

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#78 of 139 Old 01-11-2005, 08:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sleepless-in-texas
My vegetarian friend was told by her doctor to avoid soy while pregnant because it would make the baby's penis small - I kid you not. He said soy does something to the hormones. I thought that was ridiculous until I found the same info elsewhere.
??
Glad my baby was a girl!
I haven't read the whole thread so maybe this has been mentioned, but I have read that excess soy during pregnancy can contribute to the development of hypospadius (where the opening for pee is not at the tip) in a baby boy's penis
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#79 of 139 Old 01-11-2005, 08:31 PM
 
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I also don't think that the ex-veg people here believe vegetarianism is unhealthy for everyone, just *them*.
This may be the case for some ex-veg*ns, but not all who post here. Gale Force has stated in other threads that vegan diets, in particular, are unnatural & unhealthy for everyone. Please do correct me if you feel that I am wrong, Gale Force.
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#80 of 139 Old 01-11-2005, 08:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mz_libbie22
"Quote:
The way of eating that my family and I follow is the way most societies have been sustained for thousands of year...we eat traditional natural organic whole foods...When you eat good, whole food, the way God intended food to be, new fangled man made things like soy food products kind of become a non-issue."


****Okay, I'm pretty sure this is the WP site quote, so I should mention that they are talking about ALL processed food, not just Boca Burgers. WP and Sally Fannon are NOT as anti-soy as you think. They are simply anti-processed food. If you read Nourishing Traditions you'd find recipes using tofu and miso and even a veggie lentil-pecan burger recipe.
Sorry that I did not attribute all of the quotes to the individuals who posted them originally. This quote actually came from the OP. Unless she copied it verbatim from the WAPF site, I took it to be her's. "When you eat good, whole food, the way God intended food to be..." (which she has already described as not being vegetarian) is pretty clearly to me a statement of belief that God intended us to eat how she eats (NT/WAPF/however you want to label it, but not vegetarian).

Quote:
Quote:
Dietary cholesterol contributes to the strength of the intestinal wall and helps babies and children develop a healthy brain and nervous system.

i.e. - kids need cholesterol (found only in animal products)"


****Yes, everyone needs cholesterol. That's not an insult, that's a biological fact. Some people's bodies don't produce enough of it on their own, so they would have a pretty hard time on a vegan diet.
My point here was not to dismiss the fact the our bodies need some cholesterol circulating, but to take issue with the "need" for "dietary cholesterol." She/WAPF stated that dietary cholesterol was needed for children to develop healthy brains & nervous systems. Obviously vegan children are not getting dietary cholesterol &, so according to this post, should have unhealthy brains and/or nervous systems. Sorry, but as a vegan parent that insults me.
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#81 of 139 Old 01-11-2005, 08:40 PM
 
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This may be the case for some ex-veg*ns, but not all who post here. Gale Force has stated in other threads that vegan diets, in particular, are unnatural & unhealthy for everyone. Please do correct me if you feel that I am wrong, Gale Force.
If you ask me directly, I'll lay it on you, but I don't run around trying to make people feel bad.

And like I've said to you before Christa, you cannot take all of this personally. There are parts of our dietary choices that are not compatible. We are not going to agree on those things. Just because I state my opinion about a certain food does not mean that I am sitting at home thinking about you or any other poster who might eat it. And you can scream from the hilltops that omni diets are bad. I don't care how you feel about it. It will not hurt my feelings.

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#82 of 139 Old 01-11-2005, 08:48 PM
 
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And since I am about to pick up my guys down the road so they don't have to navigate the snow without an AWD, and since Christa outed me as a fanatic and meanie, I'll tell you guys that I highly recommend that you read Weston Price's book Nutrition and Physical Degeneration. It is not an easy read in vocabularly or in terms of organization, but it has powerful findings, powerful really because of the strong research design that underlies it (a design that, unfortunately, is not as explicit as I would hope). Should I ever teach a class in research design, I will use this book to make some key points about testing hypotheses. I also think it would be a great service to the community for someone to rewrite the whole thing to make it more accessible and make clear the structure of the design.

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#83 of 139 Old 01-11-2005, 09:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by wolfmama
nak. you would actually expect a native population to give up their culture???
i call that racism!!
LOL. It's american culture to formula feed... and I would hope WE WOULD GIVE THAT UP!!! I'm just sayin' that if one didn't want to kill to live one wouldn't have too....

change is usually good!
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#84 of 139 Old 01-11-2005, 09:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by toraji
Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Where are those lovely laying hens coming from? They come from a hatchery. And for every female layer, a male chick is born. What happens to those male chicks? It's death for the ones that don't get bought to be roosters. I have never met anyone who caught a wild chicken to start a home flock. And if you get your chickens from someone who is breeding their own chickens, then they obviously need a rooster. At any rate, the source is "dirty".

Philosophically, a chicken is enslaved to its owner and stuck in a laying cycle. At best it is a pet. Think of it this way: which has the better life, a deer running in the wild, enjoying life as it is meant to be as an animal, or a domesticated chicken, bred specifically to produce food for humans and be docile, to give up her eggs willingly, hanging out in a fenced perimeter/coop? How is that in any way a natural animal life?
all the chickens I know live the life of riley! They are happy and healthy and loved and they show that love right back.
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#85 of 139 Old 01-11-2005, 09:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ChristaN

My point here was not to dismiss the fact the our bodies need some cholesterol circulating, but to take issue with the "need" for "dietary cholesterol." She/WAPF stated that dietary cholesterol was needed for children to develop healthy brains & nervous systems. Obviously vegan children are not getting dietary cholesterol &, so according to this post, should have unhealthy brains and/or nervous systems. Sorry, but as a vegan parent that insults me.

Well, if they're breastfeeding they're getting cholesterol. Most people just assume if it's in breastmilk, then it's something young children need but anyway...

I still say you're being overly sensitive. People have the right to post info on nutrition here. Just because you don't agree with the information, that doesn't make the poster offensive or rude.
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#86 of 139 Old 01-11-2005, 09:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by vegiemom
LOL. It's american culture to formula feed... and I would hope WE WOULD GIVE THAT UP!!! I'm just sayin' that if one didn't want to kill to live one wouldn't have too....

change is usually good!
Now you're going to get all the Native mamas in here to complain. Can I start? That's incredibly offensive.

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#87 of 139 Old 01-11-2005, 09:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by vegiemom
Yah, I think! If one doesn't WANT to kill another being to eat... then one (in this day and in this age...) has the ability to MOVE. To make different choices and provide different options for ones self.
I don't quite get it - is killing animals indirectly by taking/altering their land to grow plant-based food, competing with them for their food, taking the animals' land for your human shelter, etc somehow morally superior to killing an animal and eating it?
I, for one, am sick of some of the veg*ns on this board who use the "ethics" card. If not eating meat fits in with your morals, GREAT! - all the power to you, I'm happy you found a way of life that works for you, but quit insinuating that my morals are inferior!
Mandy
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#88 of 139 Old 01-11-2005, 09:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by vegiemom
all the chickens I know live the life of riley! They are happy and healthy and loved and they show that love right back.
The Dog and the Wolf

A gaunt Wolf was almost dead with hunger when he happened to
meet a House-dog who was passing by. "Ah, Cousin," said the Dog.
"I knew how it would be; your irregular life will soon be the ruin
of you. Why do you not work steadily as I do, and get your food
regularly given to you?"

"I would have no objection," said the Wolf, "if I could only
get a place."

"I will easily arrange that for you," said the Dog; "come with
me to my master and you shall share my work."

So the Wolf and the Dog went towards the town together. On
the way there the Wolf noticed that the hair on a certain part of
the Dog's neck was very much worn away, so he asked him how that
had come about.

"Oh, it is nothing," said the Dog. "That is only the place
where the collar is put on at night to keep me chained up; it
chafes a bit, but one soon gets used to it."

"Is that all?" said the Wolf. "Then good-bye to you, Master
Dog."


Better starve free than be a fat slave.

(from our good friend Aesop)
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This thread was closed temporarily because the discussion was getting off track. I reopened the thread but ask that everyone to keep the discussion to soy and avoid making personal attacks on members.

Thanks.

Cathe Olson, author The Vegetarian Mother's Cookbook, Simply Natural Baby Food, and LIck It! Creamy Dreamy Vegan Ice Creams Your Mouth Will Love.  
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#90 of 139 Old 01-13-2005, 02:59 AM
 
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This "argument" will never be solved because one perspective is ethical while the other is nutritional.

But on a lighter note, the item on the agenda is:

Beans beans, the musical fruit! So much discussion over some poor little beans! Obviously people are arguing about things that have nothing to do with soybeans, they just get caught in the middle.

Early intervention specialist and parent consultant since 2002.
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