Soy is bad for you, Soy is bad for your children - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

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#121 of 139 Old 01-14-2005, 05:50 PM
 
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I agree, deeporgarten, that our system is messed up at the best. I was in no way saying that everyone should be a vegetarian to save the earth. My orignial point was that relying heavily on meat as a main food source in the diet is a waste of resources. It does take more land to produce meat than it does to produce vegetables and grains and the land is mismanaged with most farming systems today. I think that people in the U.S. eat waaay too much meat these days and do not take into consideration what they are putting into their bodies and how it was produced. I used to live in California and we always drove by these huge cow farms where as far as you could see it was little square pens packed with sad looking cows sitting on manure piles. What a sickening, pathetic way to treat animals and the environment! Up near where we live now, there is a local farm that has a large land area of rolling, grassy hills where the cows are free to roam and are rotated (will edit later, have to go...)

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#122 of 139 Old 01-14-2005, 06:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by heldt123
It takes 3-1/4 acres of land to feed a meat eater for one year and 1/2 an acre of land to feed a vegetarian and about 90% of grain grown in the U.S. is fed to livestock.
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Originally Posted by Brisen
Are these numbers based on factory farming methods? Or sustainable methods? And how is a "meat eater" defined? I follow a WAP or NT diet (mostly), but I don't eat a lot of meat, certainly not a lot of muscle meat, and most of it comes from a friend's organic animals-and-veggies farm.
Good question. Dh and I are fairly heavy on the meat-eating, and we only go through 1/8th of a cow per year. This includes having people over and feeding them from time to time. There are two of us, so that's 1/16 of a cow per person. This would mean that, assuming a meat-eater eats 1/2 an acres worth of non-meat products in addition to the meat, ONE COW uses 2.75*16=44 Acres per year!!!!!!!!!

Edited to add: I thought I was replying to the other thread. Sorry, this has nothing to do with soy.
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#123 of 139 Old 01-14-2005, 06:17 PM
 
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On the soy front, I do eat some soy, in the form of miso and of course soy sauce (I haven't tried tempeh yet, but I will). I could never stomach tofu, but have only tried it in ridiculous quantities on my quest to be health conscious (like the fake meat stuff - blech). I'm not opposed to eating it in small quantities, but based on what I've read I don't think it has evolved to be a dietary staple.
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#124 of 139 Old 01-22-2005, 01:42 PM
 
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I'm afraid I have to agree that soy is bad for you. It was bad for me. I was a vegetarian for 6 months. My diet was otherwise perfect, except I used to consume soy. I was basically sick with an infection every week, until I cut out soy.

I have never been sick like that since. I don't think its a co-incidence either.

Just wanted to add my 0.02c.
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#125 of 139 Old 01-22-2005, 02:20 PM
 
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I'm afraid I have to agree that soy is bad for you. It was bad for me. I was a vegetarian for 6 months. My diet was otherwise perfect, except I used to consume soy. I was basically sick with an infection every week, until I cut out soy.

I have never been sick like that since. I don't think its a co-incidence either.
I can accept that, but the point is that soy was bad for you and your specific constitution. That does not mean that it is bad for me or anyone else in particular. Some people have problems with some foods. That does not mean that everyone should avoid them. Meat & dairy create big problems for my dh (elevation in bp, heart problems...), but some people can eat a Big Mac everyday with no visible averse effects. I know many people have problems with gluten. Again, that does not mean that gluten is bad for everyone.

One person's experience cannot be extrapolated to everyone. Even a good sized body of people who have problems with certain foods (like the pretty large number of people with intolerances to dairy or gluten) does not mean that a certain food (dairy, soy, gluten, etc.) creates health problems for everyone or that the food is universally unhealthy.
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#126 of 139 Old 01-22-2005, 03:15 PM
 
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I can accept that, but the point is that soy was bad for you and your specific constitution. That does not mean that it is bad for me or anyone else in particular.
Oh, your absolutely right. I'm sorry. I guess I should of worded my post a little better.
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#127 of 139 Old 01-22-2005, 03:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by naturalmother
I'm afraid I have to agree that soy is bad for you. It was bad for me. I was a vegetarian for 6 months. My diet was otherwise perfect, except I used to consume soy. I was basically sick with an infection every week, until I cut out soy.

I have never been sick like that since. I don't think its a co-incidence either.

Just wanted to add my 0.02c.
While I am glad you are not sick anymore, I have to but in my .02 to say I've been eating a soy included diet for 12 years and have never felt better! I'm a vegetarian, have been sick one time this entire winter. I think there are more factors affecting health than soy consumption.

To me, saying soy is detrimental because it "has no cholesterol, needed for brain function" is so frickin laughable. It's like saying "the sky is bad, because it's not the ground."

Obviously, there are other other ways to obtain cholesterol, and obviously americans have found them to the point of gluttony. In fact, your body PRODUCES it's OWN cholesterol.

I also really loved the "research" in the soy article in mothering that soy was used by chinese women to keep their wandering husbands at bay. I was laughing through the entire article. Small penises. Come on people. Can we be a little more bent on linking indirectly?

Anyway, I do feel a responsibility to walk as lightly as I can on this earth to compensate for the other people on this earth who are trampling the place down. I would rather eat some organic soy than some flesh of an animal that has been FED gmo soy any day. I too am guilty of eating some gmo veggie burgers, but I promise from this day on, I will be conscious of that. I'm glad we're all trying to be conscious, discussing this.

Really, a lot of food for thought here!
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#128 of 139 Old 01-22-2005, 04:03 PM
 
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I think that it's really the KIND of soy that is detrimental, less than "ALL SOY". We all know that processed foods are bad for us, and that includes processed soy foods. So, for example, I don't mind eating tempeh, tofu (in limited amounts), tamari, or miso, but I wouldn't eat soy ice cream, soy butter, soy milk, chik nuggets, fake bacon, or anything like that. So many dubious ingredients.

Of course, if you eat tofu, or tempeh, and it makes you sick, then by all means, don't eat it. Not everyone can tolerate the same foods. My mom gets sick eating tomatoes. Does that mean that no one should eat tomatoes? Of course not. I eat large amounts of dairy, but it doesn't bother me at all. But according to many people, dairy makes them sick. Thank goodness there's a large variety of foods out there for us, so we don't all have to eat all the same things.
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#129 of 139 Old 01-22-2005, 05:24 PM
 
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Gah, I forgot which thread I was on. My apologies.

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#130 of 139 Old 01-22-2005, 06:10 PM
 
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ITA with the different forms of soy being healthier than others. Such as tempeh, miso etc.

The things that really irks me about the soy based analogs is first the amount of ingredients in the product, the heat used to produce it, and the amount of packaging the food is in.

They seem so far removed from food, so processed. So much sodium.

I think its not fair playing field to compare a GMO analog soy bacon product with a lovely miso from a small supplier who ferments it in cedar bin for 2 years with a family recipe.

The grey area in my opinion is vast on this topic.
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#131 of 139 Old 01-22-2005, 06:46 PM
 
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If I have to choose between soy (which by the way is not my only source of protein--far from it) and eating meat again, I will eat soy even if it kills me. At least I'm not killing another creature. That goes against my moral beliefs and is not something I can live with.

My baby has GI problems. Starting with breastmilk we worked our way through every formula on the shelf and the one that works best for her is soy. She vomits forcefully through nose and mouth on other formulas and on breastmilk. She is tube-fed. Soy has probably saved her life. Not ideal but better than a malnourished or dead baby.

I was also a soymilk baby. My mom tried bfing for 6 mos and got tired of me vomiting all the time, so put me on soy. She didn't know about the elimination diet back then. I ended being allergic to dairy for years.

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#132 of 139 Old 01-23-2005, 12:15 AM
 
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Originally Posted by naturalmother
Oh, your absolutely right. I'm sorry. I guess I should of worded my post a little better.
And I apologize if I jumped on you - this topic tends to get me a bit testy. I am glad to see that it is being discussed in a more open minded manner here as this thread progresses.
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#133 of 139 Old 01-23-2005, 02:19 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Persephone
I think that it's really the KIND of soy that is detrimental, less than "ALL SOY". We all know that processed foods are bad for us, and that includes processed soy foods. So, for example, I don't mind eating tempeh, tofu (in limited amounts), tamari, or miso, but I wouldn't eat soy ice cream, soy butter, soy milk, chik nuggets, fake bacon, or anything like that. So many dubious ingredients.
My soymilk is made of organic soy beans and filtered water. Not that dubious. Even most store-bought brands don't have much extra added, and are made from soy beans (not soy protein isolate or TVP or anything like that). Just an FYI....
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#134 of 139 Old 01-23-2005, 04:10 AM
 
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This is all so interesting, after reading thru these posts I am very confused about the consumption of soy.

Could someone please direct me to some websites that are not funded by dairy farmers. Websites you know are reliable so I can do further research.

Thanks a bunch
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#135 of 139 Old 01-23-2005, 10:53 AM
 
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I will admit I have not read thru the 7 pages but this is a topic dear to my heart so I will add my 2 cents.
We are a vegan family who consumes a lot of soy. I do not like the processed stuff but dh and dc do. I have been trying to weed it out - at least the fake meat stuff- so full of sodium. But being vegan I do allow the kids to eat soy ice cream and the like- I really have not seen to many dubious ingredients in the ones I buy. And I only buy organic soy anything.
That said, my kids who consume lots of soy are very healthy. At 9 and 6 they have both been to a doc once in their lives- both trips to the er for different reasons. The 9 yo has 0 cavitites, the 6 yo has a few we will seal and watch.
So I guess my point is that you gotta eat what is right for you and your family and not go over board on anything processed- soy or not.
And I really think that the soy article in mothering was exteremely biased and ill-researched...
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#136 of 139 Old 01-23-2005, 02:18 PM
 
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treehugger,

Your request for unbiased soy research is such a toughy. It seems that most, if not all, of the anti-soy stuff that I have seen is either directly written by Sally Fallon & Mary Enig who, although not directly associated with dairy farmers, seem to have a personal vendeta against soy to me and are promoting a diet in which one must eat animal products or suffer ill health or written by others associated with Fallon & Enig through WAPF. Although there are a few others who think that soy is very bad, too. I, personally, haven't found any of their arguements convincing.

On the other hand, those who say that it isn't bad are often vegetarian writers. I did like John Robbins' response to the anti-soy camp. Although I recognize that he is promoting a vegan diet, he didn't make a blanket statment that all soy is great. If you are interested, his response is here: http://www.foodrevolution.org/what_about_soy.htm

I always like searching the National Library of Medicine's online site, PubMed, for scientific studies, as well. You can do this by going to: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi and typing in a search for "soy and health" or something along those lines. You can read abstracts of studies on their site. Pretty much all of the studies that I have seen linked there, and their database is pretty comprehensive, do not lead me to believe that soy is detrimental to one's health.
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#137 of 139 Old 01-23-2005, 03:04 PM
 
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ChristaN

Those sites look interesting, as soon as I have a bit more time I will have to sit down and read them.

Thank you for posting them.
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#138 of 139 Old 01-23-2005, 03:57 PM
 
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I just want to chime in....

that not all meat is the same.

We eat mostly pastured meat. Our meat is slaughtered and processed by the very people who raised them. They are never transported or put in nasty slaughterhouses.

The folks raising these animals pasture them.

We used to eat meat once a week. That worked for us. We ate tons of beans rice and veggies. Then my dd came along. She is allergic to soy, diary, corn, and most grains. My son vomits profusely when he is exposed to things like wheat and soy leaves him in bad shape. Suddenly, we are on a paleolithic diet (with some cheating for rice).

With this transformation...I have faces to put with the food on my table. I believe wholeheartedly that we are eating a much more earth friendly diet. It is local, unprocessed and the only transporting is from the farm to my freezer.

The most effective subsistance strategy in the history of man was hunter gatherer. But that takes more land than we have for our current population. I think we just have too many people. So rather than focus on feeding the entire world via grains, I think we should start thinking about personally (not gov'tally) limiting our population growth.

Not all meat is McD's. Some of it is healthier, raised in a healthier environment.
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#139 of 139 Old 01-24-2005, 02:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Chanley
With this transformation...I have faces to put with the food on my table. I believe wholeheartedly that we are eating a much more earth friendly diet. It is local, unprocessed and the only transporting is from the farm to my freezer.
That sounds like a wy of eating that works well for your family, and relies mostly (if not solely?) on local food webs. I am curious about what you mean when you say it is a "much more earth-friendly diet"--to what are you comparing it?
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