Soy is bad for you, Soy is bad for your children - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 139 Old 01-08-2005, 08:13 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Please do not attack me, I know there are people in these forums who are big advocates of soy and I can understand that, I used to be one of them. I was a vegetarian for three years...only meat I ate was soy and seafood, I even fed my poor baby son soy formula after he weaned off breastmilk (I still live with the guilt of that everyday). But I uncovered the truth about soy, soy is very very bad for you but the food corporations don't want you to know that (don't buy your food from a corporation, buy it from the farmers, join a CSA...or better yet produce your own food). Soybeans are cheap and easy to process, which means lots of money for the corporations and lots of promotion of it from mainstream doctors, the FDA, university scientists and so forth becuause they are all getting big pay-offs from corporations to not let the truth of soy out...but here is some of the truth and follow the link if you want to know more.

Myths and truths about soy

Myth: Use of soy as a food dates back many thousands of years.

Truth: Soy was first used as a food during the late Chou dynasty (1134-246 BC), only after the Chinese learned to ferment soy beans to make foods like tempeh, natto and tamari.

Myth: Asians consume large amounts of soy foods.

Truth: Average consumption of soy foods in Japan and China is 10 grams (about 2 teaspoons) per day. Asians consume soy foods in small amounts as a condiment, and not as a replacement for animal foods.

Myth: Modern soy foods confer the same health benefits as traditionally fermented soy foods.

Truth: Most modern soy foods are not fermented to neutralize toxins in soybeans, and are processed in a way that denatures proteins and increases levels of carcinogens.

Myth: Soy foods provide complete protein.

Truth: Like all legumes, soy beans are deficient in sulfur-containing amino acids methionine and cystine. In addition, modern processing denatures fragile lysine.

Myth: Fermented soy foods can provide vitamin B12 in vegetarian diets.

Truth: The compound that resembles vitamin B12 in soy cannot be used by the human body; in fact, soy foods cause the body to require more B12

Myth: Soy formula is safe for infants.

Truth: Soy foods contain trypsin inhibitors that inhibit protein digestion and affect pancreatic function. In test animals, diets high in trypsin inhibitors led to stunted growth and pancreatic disorders. Soy foods increase the body's requirement for vitamin D, needed for strong bones and normal growth. Phytic acid in soy foods results in reduced bioavailabilty of iron and zinc which are required for the health and development of the brain and nervous system. Soy also lacks cholesterol, likewise essential for the development of the brain and nervous system. Megadoses of phytoestrogens in soy formula have been implicated in the current trend toward increasingly premature sexual development in girls and delayed or retarded sexual development in boys.

Myth: Soy foods can prevent osteoporosis.

Truth: Soy foods can cause deficiencies in calcium and vitamin D, both needed for healthy bones. Calcium from bone broths and vitamin D from seafood, lard and organ meats prevent osteoporosis in Asian countries—not soy foods.

Myth: Modern soy foods protect against many types of cancer.

Truth: A British government report concluded that there is little evidence that soy foods protect against breast cancer or any other forms of cancer. In fact, soy foods may result in an increased risk of cancer.

Myth: Soy foods protect against heart disease.

Truth: In some people, consumption of soy foods will lower cholesterol, but there is no evidence that lowering cholesterol improves one's risk of having heart disease.

Myth: Soy estrogens (isoflavones) are good for you.

Truth: Soy isoflavones are phyto-endocrine disrupters. At dietary levels, they can prevent ovulation and stimulate the growth of cancer cells. Eating as little as 30 grams (about 4 tablespoons) of soy per day can result in hypothyroidism with symptoms of lethargy, constipation, weight gain and fatigue.

Myth: Soy foods are safe and beneficial for women to use in their postmenopausal years.

Truth: Soy foods can stimulate the growth of estrogen-dependent tumors and cause thyroid problems. Low thyroid function is associated with difficulties in menopause.

Myth: Phytoestrogens in soy foods can enhance mental ability.

Truth: A recent study found that women with the highest levels of estrogen in their blood had the lowest levels of cognitive function; In Japanese Americans tofu consumption in mid-life is associated with the occurrence of Alzheimer's disease in later life.

Myth: Soy isoflavones and soy protein isolate have GRAS (Generally Recognized as Safe) status.

Truth: Archer Daniels Midland (ADM) recently withdrew its application to the FDA for GRAS status for soy isoflavones following an outpouring of protest from the scientific community. The FDA never approved GRAS status for soy protein isolate because of concern regarding the presence of toxins and carcinogens in processed soy.

Myth: Soy foods are good for your sex life.

Truth: Numerous animal studies show that soy foods cause infertility in animals. Soy consumption enhances hair growth in middle-aged men, indicating lowered testosterone levels. Japanese housewives feed tofu to their husbands frequently when they want to reduce his virility.

Myth: Soy beans are good for the environment.

Truth: Most soy beans grown in the US are genetically engineered to allow farmers to use large amounts of herbicides.

Myth: Soy beans are good for developing nations.

Truth: In third world countries, soybeans replace traditional crops and transfer the value-added of processing from the local population to multinational corporations.


If you want to learn more, please go here: http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/index.html

What's wrong with politically correct nutrition?

LIE: Avoid saturated fats
TRUTH: Saturated fats play many important roles in the body. They provide integrity to the cell membrane, enhance the body's use of essential fatty acids, enhance the immune system, protect the liver and contribute to strong bones. Saturated fats do not cause heart disease. In fact, saturated fats are the preferred food for the heart. Your body makes saturated fats out of carbohydrates.

LIE: Limit cholesterol
TRUTH: Dietary cholesterol contributes to the strength of the intestinal wall and helps babies and children develop a healthy brain and nervous system. Foods that contain cholesterol also provide many other important nutrients. Only oxidized cholesterol, found in powdered milk and eggs, contributes to heart disease. Powdered milk is added to 1% and 2% milk.

LIE: Use more polyunsaturated oils
TRUTH:Polyunsaturates in more than small amounts contribute to cancer, heart disease, autoimmune diseases, learning disabilities, intestinal problems and premature aging. Large amounts of polyunsaturated fats are new to the human diet, due to the modern use of commercial liquid vegetable oils.
Avoid red meat Red meat is a rich source of nutrients that protect the heart and nervous system including vitamins B12 and B6, zinc, phosphorus, carnitine and Coenzyme Q10.

LIE: Cut back on eggs
TRUTH: Eggs are nature's perfect food, providing excellent protein, the gamut of nutrients and important fatty acids that contribute to the health of the brain and nervous system. Americans had less heart disease when they ate more eggs. Egg substitutes cause rapid death in test animals.

LIE: Eat lean meat and drink lowfat milk
TRUTH: Lean meat and lowfat milk lack fat soluble vitamins needed to assimilate protein and minerals in meat and milk. Consumption of low-fat foods can lead to depletion of vitamin A and D reserves.

LIE: Limit fat consumption to 30% of calories
TRUTH: 30% calories as fat is too low for most people, leading to low blood sugar and fatigue. Traditional diets contained 40% to 80% of calories as healthy fats, mostly of animal origin.

LIE: Eat 6-11 servings of grains per day
TRUTH: Most grain products are made from white flour, which is devoid of nutrients. Additives in white flour can cause vitamin deficiencies. Whole grain products can cause mineral deficiencies and intestinal problems unless properly prepared.

LIE: Restrict salt
TRUTH: Salt is crucial to digestion and assimilation. Salt is also necessary for the development and functioning of the nervous system.

LIE: At least 5 servings of fruits and vegetables per day
TRUTH: Fruits and vegetables receive an average of 10 applications of pesticides, from seed to storage. Consumers should seek out organic produce. Quality counts!

LIE: Eat more soy foods
TRUTH: Modern soy foods block mineral absorption, inhibit protein digestion, depress thyroid function and contain potent carcinogens.

For more information, visit: http://www.westonaprice.org/splash_2.htm
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#2 of 139 Old 01-08-2005, 08:17 AM
 
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First off, if you were eating fish......

a vegetarian you were not! :

BUT- just like anything- soy in rational quantities is good for you. We, as americans, have made soy BAD by over consumption.

I'm a strict vegetarian. My family, including my 22month son, enjoy soy a few times a week. And enjoy the benefits OF soy. By not having it every day and in every form (mostly avoiding the processed forms of soy- which are bad... junk food!)

btw- if soy really irks you, and you are really a vegetarian... than don't eat it. There are many many vegies out there that don't consume any soy!

regarding formula- is soy that much worse than regular formula?
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#3 of 139 Old 01-08-2005, 09:17 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I am no longer a vegetarian (or maybe I should have more correctly said that I was a lacto-ovo vegetarian, or whatever the type is called that doesn't eat red meat, poultry, eggs, or dairy...my diet was about 95% veggies, fruits, grains and beans...I may have had seafood once or twice a month and soy almost daily, in the form of soymilk mostly). I eat all types of meat now, mostly organic grass pasture fed meat and I feel much healthier for it...I also eat high omega 3 eggs, but I consume only fermented dairy...such as yogurt, kefir, and some raw cheeses...I guess I just don't like milk. I grow my own organic veggies and some fruit and I always have, so I still eat plenty of those. I know that eliminating soy and eating meat again has made me healthier, I put the info. out there for people like me who were duped into thinking they were doing something healthy for themselves when they really weren't...I just want to educate, I am just presenting the facts that I have read, I have read lots of pro-soy stuff too...but this is what I know to be true and this is what has worked for me. There are a lot of people out there that foolishly think of soy as the #1 super health food, a lot of research has been done on soy that actually says quite the opposite and I just think people should hear this as well so they can honestly decide for themselves.

In regards to the formula issuse, you're right...all formula is bad, I know that now, but didn't know it a year ago when my son weaned. Now my son drinks organic raw milk from cows that eat only grass and hay (we buy it from the Amish in PA)...he loves it, and thrives on it.
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#4 of 139 Old 01-08-2005, 10:12 AM
 
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a vegetarian that eats any fish isnt a vegetarian of any description...
i eat soy a few times a week, which i believe is better for you than animal products, and better for the animals...
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#5 of 139 Old 01-08-2005, 11:07 AM
 
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Go do your research at multiple sources instead of relying on one individual. I have read the same thing over and over again on different websites, and the all point to Sally Fallon as their source. No other reputable source has come to the same come to the same conclusion. I think her sources are out of date and the research she used borders on unethical.
Not all of China has the same diet; it is regional just like here. When you average a huge country based on the culinary ingredient prevalent in some places but not others of that many people, the figures are bound to be lower and inconsistant with the norm. When I was in S'pore most of the Chinese there ate soy sauce and a variety of tofus and soymilk. We had to be careful of it because it does contain a chemical that irrates my fils gout. Interesting how Sally did not jump on that medically documented reason not to eat soy. Maybe because in most people, purines are beneficial and fight cancer. Just note that all those exciting recipes for brains and liver also contain high amounts of purine and can not be eaten by someone with gout as well.
We are vegetarians in my house. We eat soy. We are healthy, and not as spacey as we would like to be- I think that requires beer or other prohibited substances. I would opt for a soy burger over a hamburger or fish any day. At least it would not contain high amounts of lead or the potential for ecoli, samonila, etc. I do not think soy is the wonder food that some have latched on to, and I also think it is very important to have variety and rotate what you eat. I would go look at more research if I were you- I will compile a list for you.
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#6 of 139 Old 01-08-2005, 11:21 AM
 
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I haven't done all this tremendous research about soy but i am still going to continue to eat soybeans and drink soymilk based on my personal experience it has been a Godsent. The month i have a diet rich in soy, i have literally NO PMS and no cramping during menstruation whatsoever. The times i have been lax about having soy in my diet , i have had horrid cramps and i have rolled over. So i am going to enjoy my soy diet and live for the day and deal with all the 'problems' that these research studies say i will have when the time comes
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#7 of 139 Old 01-08-2005, 12:50 PM
 
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Civmom511 Just a couple of notes...

1- on some of what you stated, I agree with you. Alot of modern soy products are so processed, they are no better than any other junk food. And excessive amounts can be dangerous.

2- I myself cannot eat soy products because of an allergy or intolerance, I am not sure which it is. I have horrid intestinal cramping, diarreah, sinus problems, and more whenever I consume soy. Whether it be once a day or once a month. So even if soy in *any* amount was healthy, some people cannot rely on it for the benefits it can provide. (And alot of vegetarians don't rely on soy as a primary source of nutrients.)

3- (with my agreements in mind...) To come on this board and have that post as your first post on Mothering (or 2nd, I just see that you only have 5 posts now..) was probably not the most effective way to get your opinion across. THe women here don't know you, don't have any reason not to just dismiss your opinion as that of a stranger. A better way to produce a controversial argument would have been to wait until you had found some things you could agree on with people, or to see if anyone wanted to know about the possible dangers of soy. Just a thought. I just know I am instantly skeptical of a long fairly argumentative thread posted by a brand spankin new member...

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#8 of 139 Old 01-08-2005, 06:13 PM
 
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civmom511, welcome to MDC!

There has been quite the discussion over soy in this forum multiple times before--do a search for "soy" and something like "bad" or "controversy" and see all the threads that come up. In general we all agree that processed soy is evil, and traditional fermented forms are best. Soy, just like any other legume, has both positive as well as negative effects.

I hear your guilt over your previous diet...hugs to you. I am right there too, you can join us ex-veg*ns and NT-foodies over on the NT/Traditional Foods Mamas threads. Here is the link to our active January thread: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=231870

Bellababe, I have to disagree with your statement "And alot of vegetarians don't rely on soy as a primary source of nutrients." IME I have seen many veg*ns who will have soy milk for breakfast either on cereal or in a coffee drink, soy cheese or soy meat analogue sandwich for lunch, more soy coffee drinks throughout the day, and tempeh, tofu, or more soy analogue for dinner. It's way too easy to buy the stuff at the store! And I keep seeing recommendations for veg*ns to drink soy milk and eat soy dogs to get their b12. So perhaps they are not relying on soy solely for its nutrient content, but it does constitute a large majority of many veg*n diets. (Please forgive me if I have misconstrued your statement, it's been a long morning.)
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#9 of 139 Old 01-08-2005, 06:16 PM
 
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Mothering actually did an article on this a few months back...maybe 2 issues ago? There were a lot of reasons mothering mentioned why you should eliminate or reduce soy, especially in children's diets.

~Brandon Michael (11/23/03), Jocelyn Lily Nữ (2/4/07, adopted 5/28/07 from Vietnam), Amelia Rylie (1/14/09), & Ryland Josef William (9/7/05-9/7/05 @ 41 wks). 
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#10 of 139 Old 01-08-2005, 06:35 PM
 
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civmom511, here's an interesting counter-website to your arguments. To me, it makes more sense and has more scientific studies to back it up: www.drmcdougall.com - but to each his own. We all have to do our own research and follow our own hearts on this one.
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#11 of 139 Old 01-08-2005, 06:49 PM
 
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[QUOTE=toraji

Bellababe, I have to disagree with your statement "And alot of vegetarians don't rely on soy as a primary source of nutrients." IME I have seen many veg*ns who will have soy milk for breakfast either on cereal or in a coffee drink, soy cheese or soy meat analogue sandwich for lunch, more soy coffee drinks throughout the day, and tempeh, tofu, or more soy analogue for dinner. It's way too easy to buy the stuff at the store! And I keep seeing recommendations for veg*ns to drink soy milk and eat soy dogs to get their b12. So perhaps they are not relying on soy solely for its nutrient content, but it does constitute a large majority of many veg*n diets. (Please forgive me if I have misconstrued your statement, it's been a long morning.)[/QUOTE]



I have to agree. Even though there ARE vegans who don't eat soy, or only eat very little of it. Most of the groups promoting veganism (like PETA) are pushing a diet full of fake dairy and meat products (and Fritos ) in their pamphlets. So, there are alot of new vegans who are relying on these processed foods to maintain their lifestyle. I found it impossible to be vegan after deciding to go off of soy. But, there ARE some who do it.
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#12 of 139 Old 01-09-2005, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm sorry, my sudden approach after so few posts was probably not the best way to go about it...I tend to be the kind of personality that when I discover something important, something where I feel I have been misled and have discovered the truth I really feel the need to tell others and everyone because I feel that there are probably others out there like me. I just wanted to get this information out to others, everything I posted comes from The Weston A Price Foundation, I didn't write it and I put up several links to their website on the post. You can read it, or disregard it or do whatever you want with it, I just wanted to put it out there because a lot of people don't know that soy is harmful and the affect it has on your body. My mother would be a perfect example of this...3 years ago, she decided to become Vegan, mostly to lose weight and to become "healthy"....for 2 years, the only things she ate were veggies, fruits, grains, legumes, and soy...she ate lots of soy and talked about it as the healthiest thing in the world and how great it was (I was in complete agreement with her at the time)...she ate the burgers and the nuggets and the cheese and the protein powder and the milk and all the stuff. My mom is 44 and a pretty healthy woman, she's about 25 pounds overweight but otherwise she is very healthy...just this past year, 2004, she found 4 tumors on her body...one on her skin, a subdermal lump...and 3 polyps in her colon. She had a huge kidney stone, and I mean huge...on her x-rays it looked about the size of a nickel...it was so huge she couldn't pass it and the doctors had to go in and remove it. She had a questionable mammogram, a thickening in one of her breasts. She was sick on and off most of the year, mostly with bronchitis and stuff...it was really odd for her to be this sick, she had always been very healhy...I mean she birthed and raised 4 kids, she was the type of mom where the whole family could come down with the flu and she'd never get it and she'd take care of all of us. So it was weird, very weird that so much should happen to her in just a year...and her and I now both believe it was the soy products, it's a known potent carcinogen especially in women cause it fools with your horomones, it has several anti-nutrients which blocks the absorption of a lot of the macro-minerals. I read several similiar accounts of the same sort of things happening to women who ate a lot of soy for long periods of time. I don't think it's just coincidence and neither does she.
The way of eating that my family and I follow is the way most societies have been sustained for thousands of year...we eat traditional natural organic whole foods. We, for the most part, don't consume commercial meat, eggs and especially milk. We buy our beef, chicken and lamb straight from the farmers and only those who pasture raise or allow their chickens free range. We buy only free range eggs and we drink raw milk and use raw milk products straight from the cow, but only from cows who are pasture raised and healthy...we buy our milk from an Amish family in PA (we also buy eggs from them, but were getting chicks this spring...I'm so excited about that), since commie maryland where I live has made raw milk illegal. Although we are looking into getting a cow this spring, hopefully we can start producing our own milk within a year or so. We organically grow a wide variety of veggies and some berries and a few peach trees and eat from that most of the year as I freeze a lot of it for use during the winter (I don't can, it destroys nutrients). We make our own natural delicious lacto-femented sauerkraut just like my german ancestors did for hundreds of years before me. We make other lacto-fermented veggies and drinks. We make whole grain bread from grain that we sprout and then grind ourselves, it really isn't as daunting or as difficult as it sounds and actually quite fun....this is the way I strive to eat and the way I nourish my family and the growing baby inside me (I am almost 6 months along with our second child). When you eat good, whole food, the way God intended food to be, new fangled man made things like soy food products kind of become a non-issue. When I say soy is bad, I say it and at the same time say there is a better way... At least, I know that this is the way for me and for my family and I just want to tell people about it and show them and carry on traditions that sustain us, and make us a community, and make us healthier and stronger.
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#13 of 139 Old 01-09-2005, 11:19 AM
 
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Why do people who eat fish say they are vegetarian.
The only thing I agre with our staement is soy formula should not be given to babies, no formula should be given to babies.

I always find it interesting when people claiming to be vegetarian then they went back to meat are so much healthier.
Eating animal flesh is bad for you organic or not.

Sorry to sound harsh but am tired of hearing from meat eaters how bad soy is.
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#14 of 139 Old 01-09-2005, 11:36 AM
 
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I am one of many folks who was once vegetarian and felt infinately healthier after going back to eating meat. I found it easier to maintain a healthy weight (or at least not gain more weight, which I did the entire time I was veg*an, which was, to varying degrees, about 13 years) I am less exhausted all the time, my skin is much much nicer, I have fewer cavities, I can concentrate better, I'm far better able to control my appetite. I am a happier, healthier person for it. And I know so many other people who say the same. Honestly, I've never heard a vegetarian in real life walk up to me and say s/he had never felt as healthy before... but I've heard it dozens of times from ex-veggies. (Yes, I've read people's testimonials online, I don't count those as being in my personal experience.)

Now, I agree that any food guru is one-sided. I find a lot I like in Weston A Price and Sally Fallon, but I don't treat them as gospel because I know they have an agenda like anybody.
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#15 of 139 Old 01-09-2005, 11:47 AM
 
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IEIEIEIIEIEIEII! Weston Price- my ass!

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#16 of 139 Old 01-09-2005, 12:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by veggie4ever
Why do people who eat fish say they are vegetarian.
I can never understand this either

Blissful Mama to DD-(5), DS-(6) and someone new due in November!
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#17 of 139 Old 01-09-2005, 12:39 PM
 
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IEIEIEIIEIEIEII! Weston Price- my ass!
The diet changed my life. I hope you veg*ns are able to be so for life. It didn't work out for me. I am finally over a vegan-diet-induced three year case of depression in pregnancy and postpartum.

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#18 of 139 Old 01-09-2005, 12:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by veggie4ever
The only thing I agre with our staement is soy formula should not be given to babies, no formula should be given to babies.

I always find it interesting when people claiming to be vegetarian then they went back to meat are so much healthier.
Eating animal flesh is bad for you organic or not.

Sorry to sound harsh but am tired of hearing from meat eaters how bad soy is.



Anti-soy research is badly done. It is often (although not always) *NOT* peer-reviewed, based on anecdotal evidence (a la Weston Price), not highly regarded within the SCIENTIFIC community (not just a few people who serve on interest-group boards on the internet)..........honestly, as someone who is TRAINED to evaluate research, the Mothering article was terrible, just terrible. The research they cited was poorly done, they were quite over zealous in the conclusions they drew, etc. To me it just sounded like another attempt to bash soy formula. Ok, cool, I agree that no formula is ever desirable, but there are more accurate ways to make such a claim. Soy formula is bad not because it's *soy* but because it's *formula*.

The other place I feel some of these people (Price, Fasson) are correct is in bashing processed food.....but on the whole meat eaters consume WAY more processed food (not NTF ppl as I know y'all don't, but mainstream American mcD's folk) simply by proportion......I totally agree that processed vegetarian food is terrible. I think that fake meats often miss the benefits of whole foods (and the nutrition of pure soy) but that's not about soy, that about processed foods........I'm sorry to see vegetarian cuisine moing towards more processed stuff but that's not about soy, that's about American values about speed/consumption/ease/cost

Honestly alot of this sounds like people who are desperately reaching for ways to justify their own unhealthy (and perhaps unethical, depending on your beliefs) diet.

We eat whole foods and try to eliminate processed foods. The healthiest I've ever been (which is just me and totally anecdotal ) is when I was vegan. I'm now vegetarian and I see how eating animal products (which are not whole foods according to many) are hurting me. Even my very mainstream doctor noticed this. Same with my dad who has heart disease- drastic changes. Again, only a few people but enough to make me feel good about my veggie toddler!! (who has great teeth and is rarely sick )

As for "commie Maryland"- I do think those laws re: raw milk are absurd, but remember, babies and kids have DIED because of drinking raw milk. I grew up in dairy country, surrounded by people who drank only raw milk and ate only homemade dairy products and every year kids died from pathogens that would have been killed in the process of pasteurization.......I don't think it's right to legislate what people can drink, but I can't agree that it's a perfect food either.
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Originally Posted by Gale Force
The diet changed my life. I hope you veg*ns are able to be so for life. It didn't work out for me. I am finally over a vegan-diet-induced three year case of depression in pregnancy and postpartum.

Maybe it's that being a vegetariAN is not just my "diet"... it's my belief system and my way of life and part of my moral make-up. Killing to live...hmmmmmmmmmmmmm doesn't work for me!

MY "diet" has controled my cfs (chronic fatigue syndrome), my polycystic ovary syndrom, and a lot of the symptoms that go along w/ both those conditions. Even diabetic symptoms. I don't take one rx.... not one! I bled out once during a routine scope and lost 3/4 of my blood! To the amazement of all involved I didn't need a transfusion and was only anemiac for a week after surgery/recovery! ONE WEEK! Most patients who suffer such accidents take up to 6 months to not be anemiac! I could go on and on and on.... but I guess it's different strokes for different folks!
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#20 of 139 Old 01-09-2005, 01:05 PM
 
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[QUOTE=mz_libbie22]
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Originally Posted by toraji

Bellababe, I have to disagree with your statement "And alot of vegetarians don't rely on soy as a primary source of nutrients." IME I have seen many veg*ns who will have soy milk for breakfast either on cereal or in a coffee drink, soy cheese or soy meat analogue sandwich for lunch, more soy coffee drinks throughout the day, and tempeh, tofu, or more soy analogue for dinner. It's way too easy to buy the stuff at the store! And I keep seeing recommendations for veg*ns to drink soy milk and eat soy dogs to get their b12. So perhaps they are not relying on soy solely for its nutrient content, but it does constitute a large majority of many veg*n diets. (Please forgive me if I have misconstrued your statement, it's been a long morning.)[/QUOTE



I have to agree. Even though there ARE vegans who don't eat soy, or only eat very little of it. Most of the groups promoting veganism (like PETA) are pushing a diet full of fake dairy and meat products (and Fritos ) in their pamphlets. So, there are alot of new vegans who are relying on these processed foods to maintain their lifestyle. I found it impossible to be vegan after deciding to go off of soy. But, there ARE some who do it.

Sorry guys, didn't mean to sound harsh! I didn't mean to say there wasn't a large majority of veges that relied on soy, just to point out that just because it is easy, pushed by marketing, etc...doesn't mean all veges eat as much as the original poster seems to have encountered. I actually am an ex vegan and feel better now, but I know lots of vegans who do not eat soy or only eat edemame occasionally.


I think moderate amounts of soy can be healthy for some people, and I think its true that alot of the studies are not as complex as needed. Just because I cannot eat it doesn't mean others can't benefit from it.

Alot of the dietary true/lie statements in the op I feel are mistaken, and part of my initial bristling was the fact that the op says nothing beyond a one liner opinion from one source, with very little to back it up. I get so tired of posting on message boards and encountering what seems like adverts...

To the OP... I understand where you are coming from and I hope my post didn't scare you off!!!

Nak, sorry if this post seems disjointed!

Shelley, mom to dd 5/19/01, ds 9/06/02, and ds 4/01/07.  Lost babe 4/09

belly.gifDue 12/18/12!

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#21 of 139 Old 01-09-2005, 01:07 PM
 
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Anecdotal evidence annoys me, but since we are offering it on the meat-eating side, here's mine on the vegetarian side.

My whole life, I suffered from fatigue to the point that most afternoons I felt like I HAD to go to bed. I was sickly. Got the flu or a cold every year. I didn't have that gusto for life that enables us to do the things that wind up being the best things in life.

UNTIL... my husband suggested, a few years ago, that we give up meat for Lent. I'm not religious, but I said I'd do it with him, sure. Well, I couldn't believe how much better I felt. And I knew NOTHING about eating healthy. We are talking white flour, packaged goods that probably had hydrogenated oils, the whole nine yards. Still, even as unhealthy as my diet was, when I gave up meat, I started feeling so much better.

Since then, I have been on a road of learning more and more about nutrition. The better I eat, the better I feel, of course. And I don't rely heavily on tofu, either. We do eat some fermented soy products. But even at times in the past when I have relied heavily on soy, I still felt better than I ever, EVER did as a meat-eater.

I have accomplished things in my life since going vegetarian that would have been out of the question for me before - become a runner, built and opened a used bookstore, remodeled a house from top to bottom, worked jobs without fear of having to call in sick all the time, etc.

Like I said, I know this is anecdotal, but since we had the "I feel better as meat-eater" side, I thought I'd offer my vegetarian miracle story.

There is lots of money to be made in the food industry. Let's keep our wits about us and think about WHY particular people offer the "facts" that they do. Let's think about the fact that it makes good sense to eat vegetables, or, if your family needs it, meat that wasn't injected with hormones and antiobiotics and was humanely raised. It makes good sense to eat things that don't have a fancy package and a billionaire behind them. It makes good sense to eat things as they grew out of the ground, and are beautiful, and weren't sprayed with man-made chemicals, or fortified with preservatives. In other words, eat what nature provides - which in my mind, does not include an antibiotic steak in a restaurant, or an estrogen chicken breast from Wendy's.

And for me, that has changed my life! Yay!
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#22 of 139 Old 01-09-2005, 01:12 PM
 
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Ooh, very good Bookworm! I totally agree, and I AM a meat eater by tried and tested necessity. You said what I was thinking much better than I did, everyone needs different things. I seriously suffer on any other diet than what I do right now, which is lowfat, high nutrient whole foods..

Shelley, mom to dd 5/19/01, ds 9/06/02, and ds 4/01/07.  Lost babe 4/09

belly.gifDue 12/18/12!

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#23 of 139 Old 01-09-2005, 01:30 PM
 
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To the OP, I am sorry to hear about your families health concerns. I know it is nice to label problems, as it is helpful way of coping with them, but to blame soy for the issues your mom is suffering is an easy scape goat for a possibly multiple factors that can contribute to an individuals health. I am listing some links below, and the one with hoax in the site name addresses this issue. I do sincerely hope her health improves regardless of her dietary decisions.
lilhomegrownmama- I so agree with you about processed vegetarian foods.

I have some qualms with the research on soy presented by Weston Price. I aalso think they have an overly obviuos agenda of pushing meat and dairy. If any industry is suspect, look no further than meat and dairy. Start looking up the statistics of cancer or hormone disruption in relation to meat and dairy consumption.

http://web.aces.uiuc.edu/faq/faq.pdl?project_id=5

http://hoaxinfo.com/soya.htm

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache...oy+myths&hl=en

http://www.asaasc.com/myths.htm

http://www.soytoy.com/soyvey.html

http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2000/300_soy.html

http://www.vegsource.com/talk/soy/index.html
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#24 of 139 Old 01-09-2005, 01:54 PM
 
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My vegetarian friend was told by her doctor to avoid soy while pregnant because it would make the baby's penis small - I kid you not. He said soy does something to the hormones. I thought that was ridiculous until I found the same info elsewhere.
??
Glad my baby was a girl!
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#25 of 139 Old 01-09-2005, 02:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vegiemom
regarding formula- is soy that much worse than regular formula?
Yes, it is.


Babies do not yet have a matured blood-brain barrier. Meaning-whatever they are given in large amounts, unnaturally-can actually make deposits in the brain. Which is one reason why vaccinations are so potent and potentially harmful.
Soy is unusually hig in manganese-a trace mineral. It has been noted in one particular study(can't seem to find it right now-but Google it and I'm sur eyou'll find it-I'm in a hurry)that found workers in themanganese mines suffered depression, irrational behavior, anger problems, etc, etc because of overexposure to the mineral they were mining. It was also noted that infants given soy formula grew up to be kind of violent, or have issues wth that.
So, saying that- I drank tons of soymilk for years, and ate tofu. In fact, I ws a veggitarian for 5 or 6 years. But now that I have learned the effects of soy-which there are many- I do not drink it anymore. I eat tempeh on occasion.

I feel it is better to not put myself or my children at harm, given the facts.

Due with number 5 in August. We do all that crunchy stuff.
.
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#26 of 139 Old 01-09-2005, 02:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sleepless-in-texas
My vegetarian friend was told by her doctor to avoid soy while pregnant because it would make the baby's penis small - I kid you not. He said soy does something to the hormones. I thought that was ridiculous until I found the same info elsewhere.
??
Glad my baby was a girl!
Ha ha :LOL I can relate!MIL was the worst to me about soy.
I have since heeded some of her advice- but lets just say, my baby is..ahem..well enowed
More so than his non-soy-drinking-mom cousin, who is quite small

I guess I proved her wrong!But seriously, Soy does mess with hormones, and I feel so much better not drinking it. I feel much more stable.
I think people can say it is conspiracy theory and whatnot-but you can easily turn the tables and say that about the soy industry. I mean, you have this bean that can be touted as a "miracle bean". It is cheap, easy to produce products from in mass quantity-why not make big bucks off of it and fool the people. The ancient chinese knew better! And- the stir the pot more, edemame is not good for you at all. In fact I think it was recorded as unedible in ancient chinese writings.It wouldn't surprise me.

I think we need to take our blinders off and look at the real hazards in our health food stores as well as our local mainstream market.

Due with number 5 in August. We do all that crunchy stuff.
.
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#27 of 139 Old 01-09-2005, 03:15 PM
 
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It would be so nice if we could all celebrate our similarities instead of argue about our differences! Most of us on MDC recognize the importance of organic, whole foods - that's a big deal! And while I don't consume animal products, I have gotten some wonderful recipes from the NT people (my dh absolutely LOVES Xenabyte's ww tortilla recipe!). Am I too idealistic to hope we can share the positives of our different journeys/views of healthy eating?
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#28 of 139 Old 01-09-2005, 04:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vegiemom
Maybe it's that being a vegetariAN is not just my "diet"... it's my belief system and my way of life and part of my moral make-up. Killing to live...hmmmmmmmmmmmmm doesn't work for me!
Good for you that being a vegetariAN works for you, both ethically and physically. It didn't work for me or my family, and I am a bit weary of hearing that people like me "didn't try hard enough" or aren't ethically "committed" enough despite extraordinary evidence to the contrary. I find it very ironic that when I came forth with my health problems on such a "compassionate" diet, that these people on the same diet were the ones bashing me the hardest (but thankfully not all!). Apparently fellow humans don't deserve the same compassion as animals.

Vegiemom, I have singled you out because repeatedly, you continue to bash others who are questioning their veg*n diets because they are suffering health problems. Have you had your b12 and other nutrient levels checked lately? I am totally being serious. You have posted previously about your depression and feelings of being overwhelmed, and that coupled with your angry posts towards the veg*ns thinking of adding animal products has caused me to be concerned about your health.

For me, lacto-ovo vegetarianism would not work for me ethically because I feel that eggs and milk are in some ways worse than meat (because not all meat is factory farmed), and even if I were able to get past my philosophical reasonings on this, I would never use it as grounds to feel morally superior to other humans. If I wanted to be bashed about my beliefs, then I'd go hang out at Babycenter, not MDC.

We all are different, and no one diet works for all. <now where is that peace emoticon?>
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#29 of 139 Old 01-09-2005, 05:31 PM
 
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toraji, the op was able to express her belief. Accordding to civmom511, "When you eat good, whole food, the way God intended food to be, new fangled man made things like soy food products kind of become a non-issue." Why can't vegiemom counter with hers? Why are you making medical diagnosis of a singled out individual because it really lends nothing to this otherwise interesting debate. Please also note that I don't mind either way if you eat meat or not, and I don't think any one was criticising you for deciding to.
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#30 of 139 Old 01-09-2005, 06:16 PM
 
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melissa17s, I have absolutely no problem with people expressing their opinions in a rational manner. But I have a very big problem with people bashing others for their beliefs without giving a reasonable explanation as to why their beliefs are incorrect.

I was being serious about getting nutritional levels checked. I had a MAJOR shift in my depression and anger when I started eating differently. So I thought that this might have been something that she'd not thought of. It was such a relief to realize that my grouchiness was something that I could control, and not embedded in my personality. I'm not telling her to eat meat, I'm saying, this may be something you may want to explore. Definitely not a medical diagnosis by any means, especially since I am no expert on these sorts of things.

BTW, I sent you a PM.
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