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#61 of 89 Old 01-26-2006, 04:10 AM
 
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I go by my experience. Rice milk makes my blood sugar crash like a lead balloon. Soy milk helps me balance my blood sugar, so I am quite sure that I am able to digest at least some of the protein in it.

I had menarche at age 10. . . on a high-meat SAD. I always laugh when people tell me soy causes early puberty.

I was vegan for 12 yrs, added eggs in pg, but also used lots of nuts and soy. When dd was born, she reacted to nuts in my diet, but has never had a reaction to any soy in my or her diet. So though I've added nuts back at this time, I'm not going out of my way to purchase nut milks.

When I looked for articles on soy, I found more solid research that shows soy is beneficial than that showing it to be bad. Prevents breast and ovarian cancer and heart disease, for starters.

I find it hard to believe that the traditional Chinese diet used soy only fermented and as a condiment. I'm trying to remember back when I lived with Chinese people, all I remember is that they wouldn't touch brown rice, said it didn't taste right.

Anyway, I think there are racial differences in peoples' digestion. When someone told me that Asian people often lack the enzyme to break down alcohol from any plant other than rice, it explained so much. I'm half Chinese, and I can drink sake till the sun comes up and never get hungover, but it's best if I run away from all the other distilled liquors as fast as I can. The ILs, OTOH, are Celtic, and the only thing they CAN'T drink in abundance is sake. Who's to say that our digestion of other food types isn't just as variable.
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#62 of 89 Old 01-26-2006, 12:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primela
I've been reading through this thread and I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned that dairy cows are often given a hormone BST or BGH - (it's given by injection to increase milk production...) But thankfully, the use of growth hormones is decreasing because consumers are speaking out against it. so if one is worried about drinking hormones and the early onset of puberty as a result, this is something to be aware of.

What I think is quite sad is most dairy cows are permitted to nurse their calves for 24 hours only and then the calf is taken away forever, so the cow can get on with the business of producing milk for human consumption (like a machine.) The cows are continually impregnanted (by artificial insemination), and they are forced to stand on concrete, which is quite cruel... But some dairies are more humane than others.

The illusion that all dairy cows live on quaint little farms, grazing on green grass is truly just that -- an illusion. (Fortunately, there are some smaller farms, but they have all but disappeared.)
All excellent reasons to buy organic or better yet, raw dairy whenever possible from a local source. Or organic soy if you go that route.

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#63 of 89 Old 01-26-2006, 12:58 PM
 
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exactly. GMO scares me in soy, corn , whatever. I love organic soy milk mixed with coffee and only purchase organic non-gmo tempeh and tofu and soy milk.

As far as making tofu , and soy milk , someone asked...it is not that complicated or laboratory oriented! http://www.ellenskitchen.com/faqs/tofumilk.html here is a good site. I make my own almond milk when I can. It is easy and so fresh tasting!
Really no more complicated than the NT methods of making dairy products
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#64 of 89 Old 01-26-2006, 01:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primela

The illusion that all dairy cows live on quaint little farms, grazing on green grass is truly just that -- an illusion. (Fortunately, there are some smaller farms, but they have all but disappeared.)
That is exactly the kind of farm I get our family's pasture-fed raw milk from. It is no illusion, and more and more dairies like the one I go to are coming online as the demand for raw milk increases.

Check here, you might find one of those illusional dairies near you:

http://www.realmilk.com/where1.html

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#65 of 89 Old 01-26-2006, 01:52 PM
 
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Good point uccomama, that is the kind of farm I get my raw milk, butter, grass fed meat, etc... from also. They really do exist! The realmilk website is a great place to start looking. I also recommend www.eatwild.com.

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#66 of 89 Old 01-26-2006, 05:35 PM
 
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Dioxins in Animal Foods: A Case for Vegetarianism?

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The research of Dr. Weston A. Price, documented in his classic volume Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, demonstrated the absolute necessity of certain fatty animal foods for good health. However, a challenging argument against eating animal foods—especially animal fat—arises from vegetarian circles. This argument focuses on a class of chemicals called dioxins, and suggests that in the modern world, overburdened by pollutants, these fat-soluble chemicals accumulate specifically in the fatty tissue of animal products, making a vegetarian—even vegan—diet a necessity for those living in the modern world...

The assertion that dioxins accumulate specifically in animal products is simplistic and inaccurate, and in fact a diet rich in pastured animal products provides protective nutrients, especially vitamin A, that directly oppose the toxic actions of dioxins in animal experiments, while a diet rich in most plant fats provides compounds that enhance the actions of dioxin. The argument that we should avoid animal products because of their dioxin concentration is thus no less flawed than the argument that we should avoid animal products because they contain saturated fat and cholesterol.
http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html
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#67 of 89 Old 01-26-2006, 07:21 PM
 
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So, after reading all of this...


What's better: soy milk or organic-local farm cow milk??

For some reason while I've been pregnant, I can't stomach soy milk. I used to buy the organic Eden Soy milk. Now I am getting cow milk from a local farm. They are pasture-fed. They have 50 cows who all have names. They even have a "cow of the month"! So I know they are being treated well. They have a very long life expectancy on this farm because they are not over stressed and are loved and cared for.
I'm not a big fan of rice milk or almond milk. I can use it in cereal, but for dunking cookies and what not, ick

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#68 of 89 Old 01-26-2006, 07:31 PM
 
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the cows milk, esp if they are not pasturizing it, and you are getting it raw...

someone's signature on the forum totally changed my life (slight exaggeration ) and that is the quote:

"if one way be better than another, then you can be sure it's nature's way" Aristotle (?)

that is how I feel about that, cow's milk comes from a cow into glass, no processing. i don't even know how they exactly make soy milk but I know it's a lot more complicated than that....
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#69 of 89 Old 01-26-2006, 07:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mum2be
So, after reading all of this...


What's better: soy milk or organic-local farm cow milk??
Only you can decide.
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#70 of 89 Old 01-26-2006, 07:40 PM
 
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That's funny, because I would take that quote to mean human milk for humans, cow's milk for cows. I guess it depends on what you think nature intended. I personally don't think we were meant to drink any milk past weaning.
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#71 of 89 Old 01-26-2006, 10:20 PM
 
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The benefits of raw grass fed milk:
http://www.drrons.com/benefits-raw-milk.htm
http://www.drrons.com/raw-milk-veritas.htm

I recently finished his book, 'The Untold Story of Milk', and it was absolutely extraordinary. The reason why pasteurization started was because of the rise of the city population demanding more milk, and they started keeping cows where there was not enough pasture to support them... so they fed them fermented slop from distilleries, nice and cheap!

Well the cow's milk quality was horrible and they were constantly sick, mastitis. tuberculosis, etc. Therefore, the milk had to be heat treated to kill all the bacteria b/c it didn't have the natural protection and nutrition it was meant to have. Grass fed cows just don't get sick like that and ... just like breastmilk... the natural immune factors and probiotics in clean raw milk kills off bad bacteria so there is not as much of an issue with contamination.

We get our raw milk from quaint little farms in Western MA and Southern NH, they sure do exist!
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#72 of 89 Old 01-26-2006, 10:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lauriem33
They really do exist! The realmilk website is a great place to start looking. I also recommend www.eatwild.com.

I would recommend that website as well.

Just to clarify... in my post I did not say that such farms do not exist - they do. But the reality is -- as most of you probably know -- the vast majority of milk purchased is not from such farms. (85-95% of dairy cows are kept in factory-farms.) But of course this forum is visited by more enlightened/aware consumers!
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#73 of 89 Old 01-27-2006, 11:12 AM
 
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Oh... I was trying to avoid this thread because I have commented on so many of them before, but I found an interesting article http://www.organicvalley.coop/utilit.../soy_girl.html
Honestly, it was consistant with what I could find regarding soy in the past. I am totally comfortable eating it and do not see it as the "moster" food that the NTers make it out to be as long as it is organic. Yes organic is supposed to be non-gmo according to the fda guidelines.
I think those recommending raw milk should start a different thread about it opposed to getting it confused with soy because although it may have its benefits its is actually not clarifying whether or not soy is "bad".
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#74 of 89 Old 01-28-2006, 12:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mama_nomad
"if one way be better than another, then you can be sure it's nature's way" Aristotle (?)

that is how I feel about that, cow's milk comes from a cow into glass, no processing. i don't even know how they exactly make soy milk but I know it's a lot more complicated than that....
It really isn't so very complicated.

soak beans
drain
grind
add water again and boil
remove from heat immediately
drain
the liquid is basic soymilk

Of course, when you buy it packaged, it has other ingredients added. No, it does not occur in nature, but then again neither does the phenomenon of an adult animal drinking the milk of another animal.

Thanks for the link melissa17s. When I did the research, that was pretty much what I found. I've been hearing so much antisoy hype lately, I've been wondering if I'm crazy or something. I'm glad to hear it from a ND.
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#75 of 89 Old 01-28-2006, 12:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mama_nomad
"if one way be better than another, then you can be sure it's nature's way" Aristotle (?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by firefaery
That's funny, because I would take that quote to mean human milk for humans, cow's milk for cows. I guess it depends on what you think nature intended. I personally don't think we were meant to drink any milk past weaning.
That's exactly how I feel. I'm having a really hard time thinking/believing otherwise.

Since the start of the raw cows milk discussion in this thread, I've been thnking, "if I want to give my family raw milk, it'll have to be from me!"
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#76 of 89 Old 01-28-2006, 12:55 PM
 
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I usually go with my gut when it comes to nutrition - and as a general rule I do not trust soy milk or soy-pretend-meat. Something about it is not right. Nor do we drink a ton of cow's milk, it just goes on cereal and in recipes around here. We do have cheese and yogurt though.

We generally avoid trans fats and HFCS. We still buy pre-processed foods because we're not made of time and money, but I try to make sure they contain *real* sugar and *real* fat. We don't do excess fat (deep fried everything) but don't avoid fat as such. We do eat a lot of different fats like coconut, cocoa, nut fats, meat fats, and whatever's in avocado.

Mostly I eat what sounds good - We have been on a big fresh fruit kick lately, and eat a lot of asian and italian type things - last night for example, dinner was Thai sweet curried chicken with pineapple, carrots, and onions, over rice noodles and we also had spiced oven fries (the fries were Dh's idea). Other nights it will be lasagna with salad, or pan-seared chicken with avocado-lime salsa and mexican rice.

So I use soy where I think it belongs - in soy sauce, and occasionally tofu. It's definitely not something I'd base a diet around. Not that my diet is perfect, but excess soy gives me the heeby jeebies.
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#77 of 89 Old 01-28-2006, 04:59 PM
 
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here is another article
http://www.mercola.com/2004/jan/21/soy.htm

we do limit soy consumption somewhat but we also do not do any cow's milk.
sometimes we eat cottage cheese and vegetarian cheese as well as rice milk on cereal and in recipes. I am kinda on the fence when it comes to soy.
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#78 of 89 Old 01-28-2006, 08:29 PM
 
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I don't know, I found the articles at the mercola site to be misleading and contradictory. Soy is bad because it makes rats gain weight. It's bad because it makes Japanese people short (though they only use it fermented there, in small amounts, and with meat, which makes it better, unlike the bad way we use it here, where people are taller . . .). It's bad because it mimics estrogen. It's bad because it blocks estrogen. It's bad because the government subsidizes it. It's bad because it costs twice as much as cows milk in Canada. It's bad because lots of it is GM and not organic (unlike every other food on the market?). It's bad because agribusiness spends big bucks promoting it (they're moving into water now, should we stop drinking water?)

It looks like everyone has their mind made up, and they will use the available data to support whatever position they already hold. I suppose I can't claim to be above that. I'm pro-soy.
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#79 of 89 Old 01-28-2006, 09:47 PM
 
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What about the taste? (and smell) of soy? I think it simply tastes better. But I'm sure there are plenty of people (probably the majority) who think cow's milk tastes better (but there are people who have not ever tried soy milk, and are really not in a position to offer an opinion.) I think what turns me off to cow's milk is the smell when it goes bad. WOW! The only time I would ever drink cow's milk is if it is ICE cold and served with chocolate cake.
Warm soy milk doesn't bother me that much (though I prefer it cold), but warm cow's milk... gag.
Soy milk just appeals more to my taste buds -- not that I drink it all that often, mainly with cereal.

So it's also a matter of taste - and there's no accounting for that!
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#80 of 89 Old 01-28-2006, 10:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primela
What about the taste? (and smell) of soy? I think it simply tastes better. But I'm sure there are plenty of people (probably the majority) who think cow's milk tastes better (but there are people who have not ever tried soy milk, and are really not in a position to offer an opinion.) I think what turns me off to cow's milk is the smell when it goes bad. WOW! The only time I would ever drink cow's milk is if it is ICE cold and served with chocolate cake.
Warm soy milk doesn't bother me that much (though I prefer it cold), but warm cow's milk... gag.
Soy milk just appeals more to my taste buds -- not that I drink it all that often, mainly with cereal.

So it's also a matter of taste - and there's no accounting for that!
Well each to their own. But I think soy milk sucks in comparison to whole raw pasture-fed cows milk, especially if you don't shake it and its mostly cream!

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#81 of 89 Old 01-29-2006, 02:20 AM
 
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One way I like soy is in coffee. I don't do dairy, but I think the flavor and texture of soy really complement coffee. By comparison, rice milk just doesn't hold up.
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#82 of 89 Old 01-29-2006, 02:38 AM
 
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Ooh, I love soy milk in coffee....and hot cocoa...going to make some now
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#83 of 89 Old 01-29-2006, 03:06 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richella
One way I like soy is in coffee. I don't do dairy, but I think the flavor and texture of soy really complement coffee. By comparison, rice milk just doesn't hold up.
yes.
i work in a retail store where so many customers tell me that they need soy milk or soy creamer for their coffee, and rice milk just does not cut it!

i don't really know as I take my coffee dark , just like my men as the in laws like to put it OH MY
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#84 of 89 Old 01-29-2006, 03:14 AM
 
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BTW would you rather your kids eat soy "sausage" or real sausage?




we do both around here ..i am an old vegan turned non veggie as i eat some fish on occasion (it is still hard for me) and I now eat some dairy. My ds has been raised with both parents involved in cooking etc as we both work and don't use day care .

my ds loves ALL meat and the alternatives (when i am cooking.) mostly i hope to make him aware of the non meat eating culture...we eat lots of beans and rice and he loves tofu! sometimes he even asks for it . i think it is better for him to eat a smart dog than a koshers best hot dog (gross) but i have given up on being a control freak ...i think ds is getting exposed to different ways at an early age
this is good , eh?
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#85 of 89 Old 01-29-2006, 10:38 AM
 
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Besides the health reasons to reduce our soy consumption in this household, we were very concerned about the waste produced by drinking commercial soy milk. I realize in many cities the tetra-paks are recycled (that takes considerable resources), in ours they get dumped in the landfill.

Talking about waste, the production of cows milk is a very inefficient process. Cows have to consume a tremendous amount to provide a small amount of milk in return (dung disposal is very mismanaged too). Raw cows milk may be a wonderful health food, but when you consider the state of affairs on the production as a whole, I just don't think the environmental issues justify using it. But hey, everyone doesn't have the same priorities as me, but I though I'd throw this other viewpoint out there.
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#86 of 89 Old 01-29-2006, 10:59 AM
 
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FWIW I would NEVER give my kids sausage OR the soy alternative. My view is that I don't eat meat...real or fake. Ever since I have been vegan the only "fake" stuff I do is occasionally soy cheese if the kiddos are craving a pizza-and evcn then we usually do a cheese free one(like pesto and carmelized onions or something.) I use almond milk, which I don't consider to be a fake milk because we don't ever drink it. I just use it to bake. We eat yummy and varied diets without the fake stuff. ITA about the fact that milk production is very wasteful. The whole process really skeeves me out...for alot of reasons, mostly health related. The problem, admittedly may not be *as* bad at a little local farm, but as a whole it's pretty bad. But, we all have our own perspectives. That's why I love you ladies! Oh, and I have a question for JaneS. I read something in one of your posts that I was curious about so I'm starting a new thread. Just giving you a head's up if you're still paying attention to this one!
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#87 of 89 Old 01-29-2006, 03:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mamaGjr
BTW would you rather your kids eat soy "sausage" or real sausage?



Well... there is sausage and there is sausage. In the same way there is milk and there is milk. Whole, raw pasteur-fed certified cows milk is not the same thing as the milk you buy in the supermarket. I certainly wouldn't give my children tofupups, nor would I give them processed sausages, heaven knows what's in them, I don't want to begin to think about it. If they would eat them, I would give them European style traditional, or homemade sausages, but they wouldn't.

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#88 of 89 Old 01-29-2006, 06:45 PM
 
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Siana said: "...the tetra-paks ....<snipped> get dumped in the landfill."

I just wanted to point out that Silk soy milk, Trader Joe's housebrand soy milk and a few other chain grocery stores' own brands of soy milk are being sold in regular milk cartons in their dairy cases.
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#89 of 89 Old 01-29-2006, 11:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PikkuMyy
There are a lot of people here who follow the Nourishing Traditions diet. Some of the big time NT leaders are rabidly anti-soy and many other anti-soy organizations can be traced back to dairy and cattle industries.

I'm not one of them. I'm vegan and I eat soy and will feed it to my children as long as they are not allergic. There are some nutritional points that are true about soy, such as what forms you eat it in. But most of the anti-soy articles talk a lot without much non-related research to back it up.

Here are some articles by vegans/vegetarians that are not PRO-soy but try to be more balanced.

http://www.vegfamily.com/health/vega...nformation.htm

http://www.foodrevolution.org/what_about_soy.htm
You so rock. I LOVE you for posting here hee,hee I'm not so good with words when it comes to the anti-soy ppl.
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