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My Head Hurts

1K views 32 replies 18 participants last post by  Leilalu 
#1 ·
I've been a vegetarian for eleven years and a vegan for almost four. I did tons of reading on the subject and felt very, very confident that this way of eating was the best way, the right way, the healthiest way. I was very proud of being vegan...one more thing to show I was different from and more enlightened than the sheeple.

But I like to think I have an open mind and can at least read about the other point of view, so I've been curious to see why people think raw milk is so great, or why eating (organic, grass-fed) beef is actually good for you, or why something as nasty-sounding as cod liver oil could be beneficial. So I started reading the threads on NT, Healing the Gut, raw milk, etc.

And now...

My head hurts.

I think I have some of my identity wrapped up in being vegan, and I've had to fight for respect among both sides of the family, where no one is even vegetarian. So it's kind of scary to think I've been wrong all this time. The idea of starting to eat dairy or meat regularly scares the cr@p out of me.

I'm not saying I'm totally convinced veganism isn't the best, but you guys sure have some compelling arguments for the other side. I always made my argument for veganism based on the assumption that the meat/dairy was pasteurized, not organic, processed, etc.

I will say that I have started taking a Tablespoon of CLO, using CO, making 24-hour yogurt (mostly with coconut milk but also with goat's milk occasionally), and making drinks with water kefir grains. So who knows where this journey will lead.

So, thanks everyone, for the massive headache.
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#2 ·
Sorry for the headache! There is so much to learn and think about, it's enough to make anyone's head spin.

I was veggie for 8 years, so I hear you about it being part of who you are. However, I had a compelling reason to consider a different path. My protein options were pretty limited, given multiple sensitivities in myself and my Dd2. I was also experiencing some depression and mood swings, which I was concerned were related to nutritional deficiencies. So, over a period of months, I gradually began to change my eating habits. I introduced bone broths, lamb, organic, pastured chicken, and grass-fed beef. Within about 6-8 weeks, I felt more stable emotionally, I was sleeping better, and I had more energy. As my babe grew, and her tolerance for dairy increased, I added homemade kefir and 24-hr. yogurt.

So, all that rambliness to say: even if you don't think you can eat meat, make the changes you feel comfortable with. If you think you need to do more, try taking baby steps to get to where you want to be. Don't rush yourself, just make small changes. For me, knowing the source of my meat made a big difference. Grocery store meat doesn't cut it; I want only high-quality, local meat.

Oh, I forgot to say that within six months after adding meat to my diet, my children GREW so much! I was amazed! We're talking several inches. My son became so stout (not fat, just really tall and muscular), my dd1, who is quite petite, began to fill out and grow taller. I've noticed an amazing difference in their physical growth! Both of them lost circles under their eyes, and their color improved.
 
#3 ·
Sometimes it's just the quickest, straightest path to get what you need, headaches and all.

And my family has said nothing. They're all just glad I'm alive and feeling better.
 
#4 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by New Mama
and making drinks with water kefir grains.
Those are vegan and so are grains soaked in a lemon juice solution or using sourdough. No worries there. You can tell your family you are "vegan plus."
 
#6 ·
I ate a mainly vegetarian, very politically-correct diet for a number of years (olive oil good, animal fat bad). The first time I read Nourishing Traditions I was like "Nooooo!!!! This can't be true!" but it made WAY TOO MUCH sense- it was like a light bulb being switched on after years of wondering why I never felt quite right. It was the one book that finally made my head *stop* spinning!
:
(And we have benefitted so much from the dietary changes.) Life's like that- it's all about learning.
 
#7 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by New Mama
I think I have some of my identity wrapped up in being vegan, and I've had to fight for respect among both sides of the family, where no one is even vegetarian. So it's kind of scary to think I've been wrong all this time. The idea of starting to eat dairy or meat regularly scares the cr@p out of me.
There's nothing wrong with research, and there's certainly nothing wrong with tweaking your diet in areas where you think you are lacking. However, you do say that the idea of starting to eat dairy or meat regularly scares the crap out of you. I completely understand that feeling (I also believe very strongly in listening to our intuition). I studied nutrition intensely for 8 years and because of it I don't doubt that I will be a life long vegetarian. I'm guessing that becoming veg/vegan wasn't something you did lightly for either ethical or health reasons or both. You deserve respect from your family no matter what decisions you make because you make them consciously and with research. I'm sorry you've had to fight for respect. I understand because I had to as well. Vegetarianism was "just a phase." (Of course, it's been 13 years, but whatever!)
 
#8 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by New Mama
I think I have some of my identity wrapped up in being vegan, and I've had to fight for respect among both sides of the family, where no one is even vegetarian. So it's kind of scary to think I've been wrong all this time. The idea of starting to eat dairy or meat regularly scares the cr@p out of me.

I'm not saying I'm totally convinced veganism isn't the best, but you guys sure have some compelling arguments for the other side. I always made my argument for veganism based on the assumption that the meat/dairy was pasteurized, not organic, processed, etc.
Well, who's to say you were actually wrong? Maybe veganism was right for you at the time and with the knowledge you had.

I think you should try whatever sounds right and see how you feel. Your body will let you know.
 
#9 ·
I so get what you are saying. I feel that I am in the same place myself. I was never a 100% vegan, but the goal was to be. What I mean by that is that I have been mostly vegan (allowing the occasional dairy or egg product) buy have not consumed meat in 7 years. I think that I am reading the same threads you are and have been having similar reactions. But because of significant stomach issues, I have let the stuff from HTG thread sink in and am committed to healing in a non-vegan way. Course, I have had to think about it long and hard, for many months and still haven't actually ate any meat yet.


I feel fortunate that I started a largely produce whole foods diet last year, when I dealt with my excessive reliance on starches. So at least at this point I would not feel like I am completely "going back" to how I used to eat. I also dread DH's family reactions. I don't expect any crap from my family, but his...I just don't want to see them gloat, YKWIM?? But regardless of whether or not I actually eat meat, I won't be eating SAD, which they do. I know their reactions shouldn't matter and I am sure that eventually I will get over it, but it does cross my mind.

I try to think about being "wrong" about my nutrition, per se, but that I am evolving. And I mean that seriously, not trying to rationalize!!
 
#10 ·
Thanks for the replies, everyone. I'm not sure I could ever go back to eating meat -- the thought of eating a big, juicy (organic, grass fed) hamburger is soooooooo not appealing. Knowing that the "red juice" is actually blood (I never thought about that as a kid) is just too much for me.

But I could maybe do cheese and eggs, if I decide it's a good idea. The thing is that I'm still not sure it is a good idea, and I don't know how to get to that place. I'm also a little worried that it might be a slippery slope for me, i.e., if I start eating some dairy again, will that lead to my being able to eat Domino's pizza, and grilled cheese sandwiches, and ravioli, etc? I feel like being "restricted" to vegan foods makes me choose more wisely, KWIM?

Sigh. I guess I'll keep reading and pondering.
:
 
#11 ·
A good thing to know for the people newly introducing animal products into their diets after years of being vegetarian is that you need to go slowly. Some people's gallbladders are so out of shape from disuse that they may start to have problems adding extra fats; also if the veg diet was deficient then you may have made yourself hypochlorhydric (low stomach acid) which will also cause digestive distress. I've heard stories of long-term vegs who change their diets suddenly, develop digestive distress, then decide that they are just meant to be vegetarian because obviously their bodies cannot handle animal products. But this only means that their bodies need some help.

Swedish bitters or Hcl supplementation will help with the transition. To test if you are hypochlorhydric, you can try this:

STOMACH ACID ASSESSMENT
*
* *

"For this test you will need some fresh baking soda. The purpose of this
test is to give us a rough indication as to whether your stomach is
producing adequate amounts of hydrochloric acid. The most scientific test
for assessment of hydrochloric acid levels is the Heidelberg test.
Gastrocaps can also be used to measure hydrochloric acid levels with good
accuracy. Both these methods are somewhat cumbersome however, and involve a
visit to a doctor for you to swallow a special capsule, which is used to
measure acid levels. Hydrochloric acid is important for digestion and
absorption of many nutrients. When hydrochloric acid is lacking,
malnutrition results. Also, because hydrochloric acid kills many bacteria,
yeasts, and parasites, its insufficiency is associated with greater
incidence of gastrointestinal infection. Hypochlorhydria (inadequate
hydrochloric acid production) is linked to not only gastrointestinal
symptoms, but also to autoimmune diseases and degenerative diseases of all
kinds.

To perform this test: mix one quarter teaspoon of baking soda in eight
ounces of cold water, first thing in the morning, before eating or drinking
anything except water. Drink the baking soda solution. Time how long it
takes to belch. Time up to five minutes. If you have not belched within five
minutes <http://www.drdebe.com/REVLWHCL.htm> stop timing anyway.
If your stomach is producing adequate amounts of hydrochloric acid you
should probably belch within two to three minutes. Early and repeated
belching is consistent with excessive stomach acid. Belching results from
the acid and baking soda reacting to form carbon dioxide gas. The Heidelberg
or Gastrocap tests can be employed for confirmation of the results of this
test. "
 
#12 ·
geez, i went through the same thing. i still am in many ways. i was vegan for about 7 years. i'm now still something like 90% vegan, with the occasional fish, raw dairy, and organic eggs. it got to the point for me where i was experiencing some serious EFA deficiency symptoms... and since i'm not all that into taking pills (and i'm horrible at remembering to), and i can't stomach liquids or oils that aren't water or tea or juice (haha, ew)... i started eating a little bit of high quality fish every now and then, and some omega 3 enriched eggs. it helped A LOT. no more visual disturbances, a HUGE effect on my depression, better skin... i also eat (very occasionally) a little bit of organic meats like chicken or lamb, but i find if i eat too much, i feel weighed down.

i don't see why you have to tell your family. honestly, i told mine and it was like a LANDSLIDE. now they take all these liberties and buy my kids all sorts of crap that i wouldnt normally feed them. i haven't said anything only because we rarely see them, but they ate a lot healthier over there when we were vegan. and since we still eat mostly vegan anyway, i don't see why they would need to know, especially if you think you're going to get those awful "ah HA! it was just a phase like i said!" looks... bleh.

and new mama, i wouldn't worry so much about the whole domino effect (pun intended!)... there is still a pretty clear line that can be drawn, no matter how much or what type of animal product you consume. your homemade organic raw cheese pizza might be similar to take out, but you know dominos has all the factory farmed dairy, bleached flour, GMO tomato sauce stuff... kwim? i still hold the same beliefs that i had as a vegan, i just don't believe it's cruel or wrong to drink cow's milk if it was taken in such a way that is respectful. it's a little harder to justify the meat thing though, having conditioned myself to feel a certain way, but the human body is a marvelous thing... and i can't argue with the fact that i was feeling ill before i started eating fish, and better afterwards. you just can't argue with the way your body is engineered. granted, everyone is different and our dietary needs are highly individualized.

hang in there.
 
#14 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by New Mama
Knowing that the "red juice" is actually blood (I never thought about that as a kid) is just too much for me.
noooooooot exactly...

from the food inspection something or other people:

Quote:
Liquid in Package
Many people think the red liquid in packaged fresh beef is blood. However, blood is removed from beef during slaughter and only a small amount remains within the muscle tissue. Since beef is about 3/4 water, this natural moisture combined with protein is the source of the liquid in the package.
 
#15 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by toraji
A good thing to know for the people newly introducing animal products into their diets after years of being vegetarian is that you need to go slowly. Some people's gallbladders are so out of shape from disuse that they may start to have problems adding extra fats; also if the veg diet was deficient then you may have made yourself hypochlorhydric (low stomach acid) which will also cause digestive distress. I've heard stories of long-term vegs who change their diets suddenly, develop digestive distress, then decide that they are just meant to be vegetarian because obviously their bodies cannot handle animal products. But this only means that their bodies need some help.
Hmmm, not sure I would agree with that even a tiny bit, however I respect your right to your own opinions. When a person cuts meat and dairy from their diet their bodies defintiely detox, so it only stands to reason that adding them back in would cause distress for your body. So, if you do decide for whatever reason to add these things, going slowly is definitely a good idea. Your body is not used to the added toxins and other things that come with meat and dairy (animal protein, possibly more fat although vegan doesn't necessarily mean low-fat, etc.). Once your body gets used to having these things again you may not have the same extreme distress.
 
#16 ·
But ColoradoMama, toraji is making a different point and that is that if your body goes for years not producing the stomach acid and other gladular "juices" required for meat, you're not going to start producing it in a day.
 
#18 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by ColoradoMama
Sorry if that came across snippy. I certainly didn't mean for it to. I was just trying to say that there are two different points of view that's all! Sometimes it's hard to be diplomatic in print!
I didn't think you were snippy, but it's a digestive issue. Toxicities might cause digestive problems, but I wouldn't necessarily expect them immediately as I would with a digestive issue. So if a new meat-eater was having digestive problems, I would put money on it being related to toraji's point. If they end up toxic in uranium because the cow ate grass watered with uranium water, I would tend to say it's the toxins in the meat.
 
#20 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by tboroson
Actually, the red juice is not blood. Blood is fully drained from the animal at slaughter. The juice is liquid from the muscle cells, which burst during cooking and then contract, squeezing the juice out. It is high in iron compounds, which is why it's red.
Not sure that makes me feel any better...but I'm glad to have my misinformation corrected.


I located a dairy farm about an hour's drive away that sells raw milk and cheese. I may, at some point, get up the nerve to throw ds in the car and take the trip up there. I don't think I could drink the milk straight (but who knows) but I'd like to try making 24-hour yogurt with it.

And then maybe I'll see how I feel after eating (raw milk) dairy for a while.

I'm still pretty sure I can't do meat, though.
 
#21 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hibou
I ate a mainly vegetarian, very politically-correct diet for a number of years (olive oil good, animal fat bad). The first time I read Nourishing Traditions I was like "Nooooo!!!! This can't be true!" but it made WAY TOO MUCH sense- it was like a light bulb being switched on after years of wondering why I never felt quite right. It was the one book that finally made my head *stop* spinning!
:
(And we have benefitted so much from the dietary changes.) Life's like that- it's all about learning.
Did I write this???

Yup, 10 year veg*n veteran here. A patient at a chiropractic office overheard me extolling the virtues of soy milk one day and very gently approached me about WAPF and NT. I looked at the website, and then bought the book, and it really did MAKE SO MUCH SENSE that I haven't looked back. It also didn't hurt that my cycles came back (which were REALLY long/non-existent) and my skin cleared up, intestinal issues got much better, and depression disappeared!

Good luck to you New Mama! Do as much research as you can handle and listen to your gut (literally and figuratively)!!
 
#23 ·
For years, I followed a mostly vegetarian diet. Occasional fish or eggs. I was healthy, as far as I knew. I was training for my black belt, eating lots of tofu, brown rice, vegetables, fruits, very small amounts of peanut oil for stir frying. I ran three times a week and had two hour karate classes four times a week. I was surely in the best shape of my life. Only, I had these 30 pounds that WOULD not come off, no matter how much I exercised, how much I counted calories, how much fat I cut out of my diet. I persisted, sure I just wasn't being "strict enough".
You know all those things the media and medical community keeps telling us? Go low fat, go vegetarian, you'll avoid diabetes, heart disease, and obesity. Well, I was doing everything right, the exercise, the low fat, the vegetarian (mostly). And I kept gaining weight, and I ended up diagnosed with diabetes.

This was nuts! The nutritionists scolded me for my (they assumed) bad diet, and told me to eat low fat and preferably vegetarian and get some exercise! They paid no attention to me when I explained I was already doing just that! It was a very frustrating time. I ended up on insulin and many drugs for high blood pressure, high cholesterol, insulin resistance. I was taking 200 units of insulin a day.
When I read Traditional Foods are Your Best Medicine (which came out before NT), it was such a relief. I had not been vegetarian for ethical reasons, but for health reasons, so it wasn't that hard to change. The low fat mentality is still hard for me to change, though. However, it is now 13 years later, and I have energy without strenuous exercise, I am off all medications, and have cut my insulin dosage from 200 to 55 units per day. I find that there is no "slippery slope" for me -- because I insist on no processed foods, and everything organic that can possibly be organic, plus pastured meat, dairy and eggs, it does place certain restrictions on food availability! But I feel great.

I'm not saying you have to eat meat. Eggs from pastured, happy chickens are an excellent animal food. Dairy, also, if you can get grass-fed raw dairy. Everyone is different, but for me I like to follow a philosophy that I have no problem eating meat if the animal was raised on its appropriate food, and has access to sunshine, clean water and enough space to live well. I am a carnivore -- but I'm not going to eat sick, miserable, tortured animals from feedlots and cages, genetically engineered to overproduce and burn out their lives in a year or two. I have found sources for well-treated animals locally, so I can go and see for myself how they are treated. I eat wild-caught fish. For me, this works. Each person has to find her/his own balance. Weston Price found wide variations in diets -- some groups ate almost 100% animal foods (Inuit, Maasai), and others (forget the name!) ate nearly vegetarian, with some insects. So you can find your own place on the spectrum where you feel comfortable and healthy.

Ann
 
#26 ·
Thanks for sharing, Ann.

I have minor health issues -- acne that sometimes is next to nothing and sometimes is full-blown, fatigue (but then I haven't slept through the night since before my son was born), episodes of light-headedness (I have low blood pressure), lack of stamina (even when exercising regularly I would be wiped out), irritability (just ask my DH), and ammenorrhea (I had to take ovulation-inducing drugs to produce eggs to get pregnant).

But I kept thinking, like you, that I just wasn't being strict enough. (I know I don't eat enough vegetables, and I love bread-y things like muffins and cookies.) It's so hard to get out of the "fat is bad" mentality, like you said.

I've been reading Eat Fat, Lose Fat and it's making sense. But then Eat to Live made a lot of sense to me when I read that, too. Am I just too easily swayed? I wish I had a science background...I didn't pay much attention to science in school because I figured I would never need it. Ha!

I just want to figure this out and get on the right path, and I want to do it before my son is eating solids fully, so I don't confuse him.

I guess I know where my gut is leading me (pun intended). Making sure the dairy is raw and from pasture-fed cows helps me, because I feel like I'm not just "going back" to eating like I did before. The pasteurized skim milk I drank a ton of growing up WAS bad for me, like I thought, so that makes me feel better.
 
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